Tahoe Lobsters -- would you buy them?

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Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 20, 2012 - 12:14pm PT

This new "commercial" Tahoe crawdad thing has me itchin.. Itchin for a new business.

I LOVE crustaceans, as they are TASTY!
Thus far the sales of these freshwater delights have been restricted to restaurants, but what about Individual purchases??

They ship main lobsters all over so why not Tahoe Lobsters??

So folks,, would YOU all buy packages of freshly caught Tahoe crawdaddios- if they were available?





Credit: Ron Anderson
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
So folks,, would YOU all buy packages of freshly caught Tahoe crawdaddios- if they were available?

Nope, I'd rather spend the day on the beach catching my own with the poor Mexicans. But I'm sure you could probably sell a dozen or two to the few rich folks who forgot to bring their real lobster with them from SF.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Dec 20, 2012 - 12:30pm PT
It would depend strictly on taste and price and I'm glad I'm not Joosh.

Here's what happened the last time lobsters tried to invade the highlands, though. The Battle of El Camino Real del Cullodeno.
Credit: GI
I think the battle site's a few miles north of I-80 by Del Paso Manor, NoSac.
bergbryce

Mountain climber
California
Dec 20, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
Are you talking about selling lobster or crawdads?
Tahoe has crawdads, lobster, not so much.

The crawdads of Tahoe are easy to catch, you only need a pot and a can of cat food.
Processing the little mud bugs is the problem. Mucho intensive and for little actual product.
I've had some gumbo made with Tahoe crawdad and it's tasty, but I personally probably wouldn't buy it, but I bet there are a lot of people who would.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
Yes, we should allow that. They are an invasive species and are affecting native species and habitat.

Mucho intensive and for little actual product.

But the head butter is worth it, no?
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Dec 20, 2012 - 12:38pm PT
Tahoe isn't the only lake in the Sierra with mudbugs. And they are not muddy at all. I can remember filling a 5 gallon bucket with some at Mammoth Pool a few years back. They were large and clean and delicious. It made up for the big trout I didn't catch. All you need is a lantern and a leader with a bare hook tied onto a stick if you don't have a fishing pole. Put a piece of bacon on the hook and put the light at the edge of the water. When the crawdads come up to the light, put the bacon in front of them and when they grab it , slowly pull it out of the water and into a bucket. Two of us filled a bucket in a little over an hour.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2012 - 12:42pm PT
Jeeez Dingus,, why should there be RED LOBSTER restaurants every where?

We have commercial black fish guys at lahaton too..tahoe is loaded with these tasty morsels that arent "native" to Tahoe.

They recently went after the Bass sunfish and catfish in the keys as well- even though NOTHING has been proven about those fish adding to the falling clarity of the lake.

But since they now have opened the crawdad fishing to include commercial outfits, why shouldnt everyone have them available to them!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 12:51pm PT
Dude, the problem with invasives is that they often dine on the native fry. Why you have to put "quotes" around native... as if it is some kind of arbitrary designation? It ain't. It is well know what is native and what isn't... and how the invasive species are fuking the native species... and how a loss of native species diversity will ultimately fuk the entire food web... leading to a loss in lake clarity.

T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Dec 20, 2012 - 12:51pm PT
Ron you probably don't want to hear this, but my wife is a Maine native.
Everytime we go back to visit her family they throw down a huge lobster
feast that includes steamer clams and local corn and taters.
Her brothers have friends that are lobstermen and get lobster as cheap as
1.99 per lb.
There is always leftover lobster from the feasts so we clean the meat from the remaining ones and make lobster rolls for lunch the next day.
Ever had a lobster roll Ron?
Damn now I need a fix!
Tad
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
Estimates of the crawdad population are ~200-300 million. FWIW, in a course I taught this fall we estimated ~175 million based on 3 days of sampling... pretty good considering.

More info: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2012/08/14/158716311/crayfish-go-on-the-menu-to-restore-lake-tahoes-blue-hue
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Dec 20, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
Here ya go Ron, first ones free.
Credit: T Hocking
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2012 - 01:00pm PT
Tad,, ive been to Main! Ate FRESH LOBS and Corn up and down the coast FOR CHEAP! I was in crustacean heaven!


Dingus,, I guess you WONT be ordering then..?




Wes,,, TELL me all about the "native fry " that dwell in the keys..??

Ive fished there, and not once seen anything other that warm water fry.

Ive fished every other body of water that has those species from New melones to Shasta to the ruby marshes. The only fish i know to have caused clarity problems is CARP subspecies. The Rubies are FULL of largemouth bass and remain quite CLEAR to this day.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:03pm PT
Don't be an idiot Ron... the Keys are an entirely artificial habitat. The native fry aren't adapted to those conditions, the invasive species that don't belong in the lake are... and they eat the native fry.


Why did I answer the question you had for Ron? Well, because I know he has his head so far up his taxidermical ass he doesn't know the first thing about ecology. I care about the ecology and like to spread what little I know because I feel it is essential for a happy, healthy life.

It would have been pretty fun to watch him try to explain it... sad, but fun. Sorry if I ruined that for you.


The only fish i know to have caused clarity problems is CARP subspecies. The Rubies are FULL of largemouth bass and remain quite CLEAR to this day

Well then, you have it all worked out. Thank god you are not in charge of anything important and spend all your time stuffing animals.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:03pm PT
I have met the invasive species and they are us!

peace

Karl
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
Wes,, im waiting for YOU to tell me about TEMPS and PH factors of those keys, then you can relate to me why you would think Kokanee or Mackinaw or Rainbow or Brown trout fry would utilize such waters.

You may also explain to me how those "non-native" fish would interact with any cold water species. Of course knowing that those warm water fish NEVER venture into the actual lake.




wow,, seems like some of you must have NEVER eaten crab, lobster, clams, oysters, muscles , abalone or any of the like, sad that is..
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
You are a fuking moron Ron, seriously. Clearly native fish don't lay their eggs there. Clearly native fish don't seek out the warm, stagnant, milfoil choked waters of the keys.

So how could the adult invasive species POSSIBLY eat the fry? I'm perplexed. Honestly, I have no idea. Unless of course the fuking swim.

Of course knowing that those warm water fish NEVER venture into the actual lake.

You just made a huge ASS out of U.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
Wes, really,, i can tell by your answers your not to hip on fish.. I fished professional tournaments for over a decade. Do you want some schoolin on this?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
Funny thing about non native vs. native species. Lot's of introduced species in Patagonia: mink, rabbits, beaver, and many plants. Conservationists like Doug Thompkins rail against these species. Patagonia also has some of the best trout fishing in the World. Trout are not native and have pretty much decimated the native species. NOBODY complains about the trout.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
JD,,Wildlife species get immigration status just like Humans.. Some go well others dont. Trial and error.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
I fully support Ron starting a new business stuffing and painting only crawfish in his mom's basement.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
An innovative entrepreneur can raise them in their toilet tank. Just like shnook!
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
Since they live at a far higher elevation than the run-of-the-mill lobsters, they should acclimate better for their Everest trip. I think yummy experiments are in order...I'll bring the butter.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:27pm PT
Ron, I live with an ecologist, whose best friend (and my second wife) has been studying warm water invasive species in Tahoe for over a decade. We don't have "Fishing" and "Guns and Ammo" on our coffee table, we have "Frontiers in Ecology" and "Aquatic Biology." While I admit, I'm a subsurface hydrology kind of guy, I assure you I know a fukload more about this than you could ever imagine.


Donini, yeah, the Kokanee salmon are not native to Tahoe, they were introduced sometime in the 1940's(?). But everyone loves them... they even have their own festival. They have been around long enough, don't adversely affect the native species, and have found a niche... so most ecologists are okay with them. Plus their purdy!

Crawdads are different, as are the warm water fish in the keys.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
Good then, you can tell me about PH and temps of Micropterous salamoides and subs, as well as the Char and true Salamoides salamoides and thier PH and temp requirements. Shouldnt be hard to do with your wealth of knowledge. Then tell me about their fry and habitats.

tell me that a large mouth, green sunfish or bull head cat will go into 40 something degree waters VOLUNTARILY out of a warm shallow key .. Or that a mackinaw will decide to go into four foot deep warm water.. Tell me how the kokanee spawn into the KEYS..? Id love to hear it.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
PH factors

hahahahaaaaaa... pH "factors".... hahahahaaaaaa....
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2012 - 01:37pm PT
there you go again Wes.. PH factors are a CRITICAL element of warm water and cold water fisheries.

I have a ph meter on my boat.. Ive used it thousands of hours.. Are you sure you know ANYTHING about fish?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
No you fuking moron, there is no such thing as "pH factors", there is only pH, which is a measure of the concentration of H ions in the water.

Largemouth Bass (Micropterus salmoides) The Largemouth is no doubt the most popular warm-water game fish in North America. It occupies the role of top predator in the vast majority of habitats that it occupies. It can reach up to 37 inches in length and 23 lbs. The largemouth bass has a wide variety of prey. Its diet consists of other fish, worms, grubs, frogs, snakes, crayfish, and insects. It will wait in structure including grass, brush, laydowns, drop-offs, and roots to ambush its prey. Then, it will swallow it whole and digest it. It has recently been found in Lake Tahoe and is a major growing concern for biologist in the Basin.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
The lobsters are thriving on the abundance of pH factors up here!

Bluegill (Lepomis macrochirus) The Bluegill is the most abundant sunfish in the area and as such has been one of the native fishes main competitors

Here, if you have any questions I will pass them onto my second wife.

http://www.tahoercd.org/uploads/documents/ISP/Fishes%20of%20Lake%20Tahoe%20Basin.pdf

Stick to stuffing animals and leave the real science to us.


pH factors..... ahahahaaaaaa
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
theres no fukking lobsters in lake tahoe jesus christ
Lots of trollers in Tahoe
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH


there IS your PH FACTOR..


Wes you dont know SQUAT about fish and fishing in Tahoe.. You CERTAINLY dont know squat about warm water fisheries either..

Those bass and sunfish and bullheads have been there for DECADES. Not the "reecent findings of biologists" by a damm long shot.

Why dont you go be a punk elsewhere.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
Those bass and sunfish and bullheads have been there for DECADES. Not the "reecent findings of biologists" by a damm long shot.

You idiot! The "recent findings" are that they are speading, and increasing pressure on native species (as I said) through predation and competition. Why don't you learn something for a change and shut the fuk up... or just go stuff your animals and convince yourself that you know more than scientists who have spent years meticulously collecting data rather than just pounding beers in a fishing boat.


http://aquaticinvasions.net/2008/AI_2008_3_1_Kamerath_etal.pdf

Snorkel surveys were conducted bi-weekly from May to November 2006 and electrofishing was
conducted four times within the snorkel survey period at locations where warm water species are already established. Snorkel
surveys and electro-fishing revealed that 57% of monitored sites contained warm water nonnative fish species. At electro-fish
sites, number of native fish decreased with increasing nonnative fish species. Comparing historical and current diet data of
natives and nonnatives indicated the latter are consuming the same diet items that native fish consumed historically. As a result,
where nonnative and native fish habitats overlap, predation on and competition with native fish is likely. Current distributions of
nonnative species found during this study are where the next established populations can be expected if their spread is not
controlled.

How many snorkel surveys have you done? Me, only a handful. How many electro-fishing surveys have you done? That's where you get ALL the fish in a certain area, not just what happens to be feeding.

The
numbers captured from the Tahoe Keys reinforce
previous hypotheses (Chandra et al., unpublished
data, 1999) that **when warm water nonnative
fishes were present, native populations were
depressed due to predation and competition** from
warm water nonnative fish. In the early 1990s
warm water fish species were rarely found
around the lake while native minnows remained
abundant. By the end of the decade largemouth
bass and bluegill were common while Lahontan
redsides [(Richardsonius egregius (Girard,
1858)] and speckled dace [Rhinichthys osculus
robustus (Girard, 1856)] populations declined or
were virtually eliminated from the Tahoe Keys,
an important rearing ground for native fishes
(CDFG, unpublished data).

Only largemouth bass and bluegill had widespread
distributions outside of the Tahoe Keys
and Taylor Creek. **Both nonnative species were
present in 57% of snorkel sites** for a minimum of
one survey period (Figure 1).

Lahontan redsides typically begin spawning in
early June, and young of the year are abundant
by mid August (Evans 1969). Largemouth bass
and bluegill were present in marinas adjacent to
spawning habitat and streams used by native
fishes for spawning, feeding, and cover (Metz et
al. 2007). Largemouth bass and bluegill were
also found in complex habitats where native fish
densities are high (Beauchamp et al. 1994).
Consequently, **the period of greatest overlap
between native and nonnative fish is during
critical spawning and rearing periods of
Lahontan redsides and speckled dace** (Evans
1969; Tucker 1969; Miller 1951). From these
data alone we cannot infer that native fish
species are decreasing because nonnative fish are
present. However, **because habitat overlap
between native and nonnatives is highest during
spawning and rearing of the former, //predation
and competition is likely to have a negative
effect// on the native fishery.**

Current nonnative diet data show that
largemouth bass and bluegill are piscivorous and
could place increasing stress on native fish
populations. **Both native and nonnative fish
occurred in 43.1% of all largemouth bass
specimens.** Predation pressure, coupled with
potential dietary competition, will likely threaten
an already declining native fishery (Thiede 1997)
if warm water nonnative fish species become
well established in Lake Tahoe.


There are no "pH factors"... hahahaaaaaa


Don't turn into a blurring. You know what you know, but it ain't jack sh#t compared to years of scientific data. There is tons of cool stuff you could learn if you would just pull your head out of your ass and realize sometimes the FACTS contradict what you think you already know. And when they do, you can either continue being an uneducated idiot, or you can change your views based on the available evidence.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
That wikipedia article proves it again. Mr. Anderson, you sir, are a moron.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
Yes ive seen those "studies" ..

The percentages sometimes derived from three fish seen too. But unlike Wes, ive been there and seen for myself. Those fish have been there for DECADES and not one person i know has ever caught one outside of the keys, not even the guides. Sure, there may very well be occasional escapees that venture the shallow, but that is only during the peak temps of the summer.

Should i now list the forums and sites that completely deny those above studies? Should the real reasons of declining chubs and minnow species be talked about, like SALT/sand? Or Brines used on the roadways all around it?


Have you ever caught a bass, Wes, outside of the keys?? the answer would be no. Neither have i.. Gee no one know that fishes there has either. Ive kayaked the east shore and never seen or caught one then either.

Ive NEVER seen a bass fry ball outside the keys either.. Nor have i seen a mack eating bass fry in the keys either. In FACT they just guess as to declines in bait populations AS the study actually says in it.

Ill provide you the lures to go do 100 hours of fishing see if YOU can find a bass outside the keys.

I had NDOW biologists tell me i was full of it on bass growth rates in mason valley,,, UNTIL i did my tag experiments physically proving it to their slack jaws.







so get off my thread - im already tired of you stalking nature here.

This is about MY business idea, thank you in advance.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
The percentages sometimes derived from three fish seen too.

Funny, cuz none of those percentages were derived from three fish.

"Diets of 684 nonnative fish were analyzed (394
bluegill, and 290 largemouth bass)."

The sampling methods seemed pretty robust to me and that is a bit more than 3. Way more robust than you heading out for a day of drinking and fishing with some buddies. Although my buddy who helped fund the study would certainly not be opposed to those methods... in addition to the real science.

But unlike Wes, ive been there and seen for myself.

I've done snorkel surveys, have you? I might even be able to get you out on an electro-fishing survey. You should try it, you will probably like it.

Those fish have been there for DECADES and not one person i know has ever caught one outside of the keys, not even the guides.

Again, your head is lodged so firmly up your a*#... you seriously need to get some air. You clearly haven't read the study.

Sure, there may very well be occasional escapees that venture the shallow, but that is only during the peak temps of the summer.

Sure, and it has been DOCUMENTED by repeated measurements with sound statistics that THE POPULATIONS OUTSIDE THE KEYS ARE INCREASING.

Should i now list the forums and sites that completely deny those above studies?

Sure, that sounds fun. I would love to compare their sampling methods.

Should the real reasons of declining chubs and minnow species be talked about, like SALT/sand? Or Brines used on the roadways all around it?

Oh, please do! We scientists are open to all information, even if it is complete crap. We have the training to discern the difference.


Have you ever caught a bass, Wes, outside of the keys??

Hundreds, in Lake Powell.

Gee no one know that fishes there has either. Ive kayaked the east shore and never seen or caught one then either.

You've never used an electro-shocker, have you? The answer would be no. You pretty much get it all, not just what your shitty fishing skills yield. But you should know that cuz you worked for Fish and Game or something... and I'm sure you were such an open minded person you grabbed any and every chance to learn something new.



Ive NEVER seen a bass fry ball outside the keys either..

How many hours of snorkeling and/or scuba do you have? Cuz the people I talk to (and trust) have 100's of hours.

Nor have i seen a mack eating bass fry in the keys either.

And I've never seen your as#@&%e, but clearly you have one... although you do seem to be pretty full of sh#t, so you never know.

Ill provide you the lures to go do 100 hours of fishing see if YOU can find a bass outside the keys.

That's retarded. I will volunteer to go out with my second wife on her next electro-fishing survey and take pictures of more bass than you could imagine. BTW, my third wife is working the shocker in the above video... she loves it when I talk like that.

I had NDOW biologists tell me i was full of it on bass growth rates in mason valley,,, UNTIL i did my tag experiments physically proving it to their slack jaws.

I think they were slack jawed at your ignorance of what constitutes a scientific study and reliable measurements.



This ain't your thread, this is CMacs thread. He is free to boot me again anytime he sees fit.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
Wes your quite wrong, ive done electro shocking, seining and habitat restorations from Paiute Cuthroats to bass at Mason valley, carson river and washoe lake. Did an eight year study at Mason Valley - dealing with temps, PH problems through the use of insecticides, carp effects, growth rates, spawning sites,spawning patterns, bottom types, competition of four main species, and even got an award from them for the effort.
If the local NDOW guys wanted to know about a pond of the many in Mason Valley, they asked me first. When they wanted to drain the Gadwall series, they asked me to FISH the transplants out as the shock boats were all but USELESS there. So i organized a transplant tournament amongst many pro fisherman i knew at the time and we did just that for weeks. When they thought they needed habitat for the pond these fish were going into who do you think did that also.?


Credit: Ron Anderson

heres a couple of "drunk pro fisherman with NDOW filling yet another load of transplant bass , crappie and blugill



Credit: Ron Anderson

hers some dedicated guys doing a huge job of habitat creation for three species of warm water fish in the Mason Valley WMA.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
omg, then you ARE and expert... and the rest of us are wrong. I will let all my scientist friends know we should just save time and money and contact you... that is, if you would be so gracious as to enlighten us with your infallible wisdom from the 1970's. I'm sure nothing has changed, regardless of those silly observations and studies and stuff.

Man, it sure will be nice to finally be able to throw away decades of meticulous measurements and findings and move on, following our new omniscient expert.

Did an eight year study at Mason Valley - dealing with temps, PH problems through the use of insecticides, carp effects, growth rates, spawning sites,spawning patterns, bottom types, competition of four main species, and even got an award from them for the effort.

Impressive. That's some high tech equipment right there. Tell me, what was the resolution of your litmus paper? Habitat creation with old tires... genius!

"Studies show that zinc, heavy metals, a host of vulcanization and rubber chemicals leach into water from tires. Many organisms are sensitive, and without dilution, contaminated tire water has been shown to kill some organisms."

But I'm sure you guys knew that from the studies you did... where you stuck the tires in a puddle and didn't see any stuff leach out... so yeah, these modern studies sound more and more like bullshit to me.

Should i now list the forums and sites that completely deny those above studies?

Anytime now...
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
no,, ill wait for you to catch a stringer of bass at cave rock..

Instead heres facts:


You kinda remind me of TRPA folk. Same ones that said they would never allow logging back in the 70s/early 80s in tahoe cuz it was "natural" the way it was. They had the studies to prove them right too.


Wes, do you know what happens to a bass in waters in the 40's? Which most of tahoe is most of the time right? only july/aug does even the surface temps warm into the 60s average. Right?
A bass in 40ish degree water is all but in hibernation. They feed only occasionally and a very small amount - since they wont hardly move to get any prey. The exception being deep warm water lakes with thermoclines.
But for tahoe, thats hibernation. They might take 1 minnow every couple of days if that. The free roamers that may be in tahoe can only exist in the extreme shallows as the below surface temps are un tolerable for those fish. 30 something doesnt equate with largemouth at all. They would have nearly NO growth rates in tahoe either - even they keys is was a slow rate of growth type fish . And even your posted study admits its a guess of lesser populations of minnow and the reasons. So for a two month active feeding season for a few roaming bass and sunfish in the shallows and keys, we now have a problem with the bait fish at rubicon point or elsewhere? Have you ran a graph over tahoe? I have.. Ive graphed up thousands of fish hitting clouds of minnows. Of course, not one of them a largemouth bass..






dirtbag

climber
Dec 20, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
Why rely on data that has been systematically and objectively collected and analyzed by experts with years of experience when instead, we have colorful anecdotes?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
Instead heres facts:

psst, there ain't a fact in that entire post. Maybe that is the problem here, you don't know what a fact actually is?

Wes, do you know what happens to a bass in waters in the 40's? Which most of tahoe is most of the time right?

Nobody ever said, or even suggested, the invasive fish species of concern were in most of Tahoe most of the time.

The free roamers that may be in tahoe can only exist in the extreme shallows

Strange... why would ecologists be worried then... unless:

**habitat overlap between native and nonnatives is highest during
spawning and rearing of the former, predation
and competition is likely to have a negative
effect on the native fishery.**

I have.. Ive graphed up thousands of fish hitting clouds of minnows.

Using what?
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 20, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
I think what ron meant to say was that after drinking LOTS of natural light and throwing some powerbait off the east shore, he has not caught a bass, which proves that bass don't exist in Lake Tahoe. Ron, is that accurate?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
Ron, in all reality, I might support your business venture... if you didn't insist you knew more about ecology than the scientists who spend their careers studying it, simply because you worked for $3 an hour doing fish restoration in the '70s and have pounded countless beers on a fishing boat. That's just ignorant horseshit and you know it.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
Wes, With what did i graph Tahoe with ,,i prefer to use the Paper graph i have, a Lowrance unit as its definition of size is still better than the LCD models i have. It also identifies bottom shapes very accurately as it doesnt rely on pixels for display. I can even side scan shallows as long as there is a return signal from something ,,with a movable transponder. It has a thousand foot range to ultra shallow ranges, among many other features. Paper graphs show theroclines well also..

And i wasnt pounding beers on a fishing boat. I was doing it semi pro levels competing against the top guys of the fishing industry. Fishing insanely hard and studying even harder. Good enough that NDOW wanted to use me rather than their own biologists and my skills rather than their shock boats..
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 04:17pm PT
So you determined the species of minnows with a fish finder? Again, I am impressed beyond words.

Ive graphed up thousands of fish hitting clouds of minnows. Of course, not one of them a largemouth bass..

Of course not! Because you say so and you built fish habitat in the desert stocking ponds with tires back in the '70s. Almost, but not quite, exactly unlike the largest alpine lake in N America.

Thanks for enlightening us. Good luck with your business plan... I'm sure it will work out just splendid... you clearly know exactly what you are doing.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2012 - 04:27pm PT
so whaut Wes,, Now your gonna tell me theres a largemouth problem clouding up liberty lake right? Competing with those pesky planted goldens?



Credit: Ron Anderson

One of the many projects of my own brain.^^ And it worked 100% as planned. And NDOW wanted me to do this instead of involving their own..
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
I know nothing about liberty lake, nor do I care.

Your ass has been handed to you on this issue. Deal with it.

Wow, complete with N arrow and no scale. Stellar! Those scientists with their silly conflicting data are no match for your skillz.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 20, 2012 - 04:33pm PT
Ron-sign me up for three full crate purchases of the tasty crustaceans and a custom expedition sled.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 20, 2012 - 04:38pm PT



"Ron-sign me up for three full crate purchases of the tasty crustaceans and a custom expedition sled."

You may be waiting awhile. I heard Ron is the new security guard at the IHOP, and enforcing immigration problems in his mobile home park.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
pffff, HARDLY Wes.. those "scientists" even say its a GUESS

Theres reems of studies that are BEE, ESS...And even your own says "its just a guess" . 99% of the bass never left the keys, i was fishing them in the 80s... Its just more silly shite like the TRPA so loves to attach to.

But i also worked for NDOT. I KNOW how much salt was used there in my eight plus years with them. I know the concentration of mixed brine too. And from S stateline to N stateline there has been millions of pounds of salt used on that section of road alone. Salt that mixes with water and flows into Tahoe.

Hey Rick,, whaddya think eh?? Since your so polished at being Alaskan,, fishin tahoe lobsters should be a breeze!!!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
99% of the bass never left the keys

hahaha... tell me again about "percentages sometimes derived from three fish seen too"

And that salt, yeah, it dissolves in water... it is easier to measure than pH... and has a relatively short residence time in the Lake. But I'm sure you've eaten salt before, so you know everything there is to know about that subject too.


If you weren't so old I'd spend more time trying to educate you, but you are clearly a lost cause. I hope I never grow up to be an obstinate delusional fool like you.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
Yes Wes,, i recently had a conversation with my buddy - who while on a flight , noticed a lady next to him working on a SAGE grouse study she was "writing a paper" on...About the Leks and the dwindling populations around mono lake to sweetwater summit range.

Said she was keyed in on the over grazing by ranchers, and then my buddy asked her if she had seen the tremendous amounts of HORSE crap all over. She slowly said well, uu yeah there was quite a lot. He asked her if she had spoken to NDOW about their trappers and ravens being so abundant these days.. Again ,,it was a noooo,, i wasnt aware of that...

Im sure this "scientist" has written more papers,, perhaps you know her?

But she was im sure,, hired by a group with an "agenda" . Her study was focused narrowly on ONE factor but hey its "scientific" after all. Cuz she publishes "paper"..



i myself have had masters degree "foresters" identify a 30 yr old BANZAI tree as a two year old seedling that had just been planted months before.

tell me Wes, where have YOU personally , in person seen largemouth bass in tahoe.? And how large were they, males or females? and fry of ANY in the lake outside of the keys?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
well, there you have it... can't argue with a friend who saw a lady on a plane who was doing a study on stuff...

fuking genius man
Roughster

Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
Dec 20, 2012 - 04:59pm PT
Jesus guys. Can't we all just get along? Why does every thread have to be a pissing contest. Ughh....
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 20, 2012 - 04:59pm PT
ron,

i get the feeling that no matter how hard you try, neither atch nor wes are going to be good customers.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
he started it
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
no Wes,, You as always, tend to turn things to shyt.

And again Where have you caught or seen for yourself largemouth bass in tahoe, size and sex and count.

you wanna flip out some study that even admits "guessing" about things, then wanna tell me i dont know jack about tahoe or fish when i was doing both long before you were born fine. but a study where the min sample was 1 to something aint gonna work.


So what do you think millions of pounds of salt have entered tahoe keeping those roads nice a dry.. Dont think that would CHANGE the shallows a little? Are freshwater fish tolerant of salt water? Last time i checked, that was a not really. Some spawn in fresh others use it following food, into brakish water. But as far as the species in tahoe, none are salt water tolerant..

Ask some of the folks in the KEYS what they thought about that all..
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
I never said I saw or caught a single fish from Tahoe. I don't fish. I'm allergic to fish. Besides, that is 100% irrelevant... almost as irrelevant as your friend's random encounter with a random lady who was doing a study on something somewhere that is completely unrelated to fish in Lake Tahoe.

Stop bringing up unrelated stuff. If you have problems with the claims I have made and supported with published scientific literature, address the parts of the study you disagree with. Large mouth bass have been collected from at least 9 sites outside the Keys. Feel free to use the results from your species determining fish finder and all the pH factors you want.

You are an idiot Ron.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Dec 20, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
Who's peepee is bigger?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 05:15pm PT
mine, without a doubt
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 20, 2012 - 05:15pm PT
I like that Wes is back. He knows lots of things about geology, if I remember correctly. I like to learn.

Thanks for coming back dude.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2012 - 05:15pm PT
yeah but its the vaJJ model..


Wes hasnt crap aside from a sampler study from where i dont know,that says we are just guessing with a minimum of 1 sample noted on some.


HE HAS never seen one himself im betting. I KNOW he hasnt caught one, and Ill BET hes never fished the keys for well over thirty years. Ill bet he knows nothing of the fact this had been planned for sometime and was disputed by as many studies that the bass were in any way a "problem" in tahoe. I know the folks i know there were bummed. This is sounding like,,,, bigfoot....


so back to crawdads, and who would think about ordering them in they were available. These are WAy better than farmed raised available is store often.



edit: Minnow listed as bait fish without any controls are : Lahaton redside, Speckled dace, Tahoe sucker , Mtn sucker , Tui cub and Piaute sculpin... thats right Wes,, those minnows your so worried about are so abundant they can be trapped and used for bait at lake tahoe..
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 05:18pm PT
Thanks Brandon. I like to teach, when I can. Aren't you a South Shore guy? Send an email if you ever need a wall to train on during the winter. Or were you the one who hooked me up with Rumney beta? Memory... I miss it!
WTF

climber
Dec 20, 2012 - 05:40pm PT
Well lets see a crawdad from a sh#t swamp in La or one from one of the cleanest lakes in the world.

hmmmm lets see eat swamp sh#t or some clean water sandy bottom crawler hmmm


Wes you are back!















































like Herpes!


Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 20, 2012 - 05:46pm PT
Wes, I'm in NH these days, we missed meeting up at Rumney. But I'm a Tahoe local at heart. I'd love to check out some new boulders next time out there, I'll hit you up.

Keep on schooling us on what you know best.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
aside from a sampler study from where i dont know

I didn't realize you really, honestly couldn't read... I thought you were joking. I didn't realize color maps (with scale) that clearly identify the locations of the sampling points confused you so much. I'm sorry... continue with your make-believe.

Tell us how a friend talking to a random lady on a random flight about a completely different study (of grouse no less) calls into question the sampling methods and conclusions of the fish study I posted.

Or how data from your species identifying fish finder is far superior to biweekly snorkel surveys and bimonthly electro-fishing surveys... that's my favorite.


Ill bet he knows nothing of the fact this had been planned for sometime and was disputed by as many studies that the bass were in any way a "problem" in tahoe.

1) Take the tinfoil off your head and use it to broil your bass. TRPA is not some Illuminati organization that produces fake studies and data to support some planned agenda.
2) You haven't posted a single study that says anything about anything.
3) You are an idiot.

Still waiting for you to tell us all where we can find those "many studies"... or who did them... or when... or... well, any information at all about them... other than there are "many" of them and they fly in the face of the easily accessible, peer reviewed, easily reproducible, clearly explained scientific literature.



herpes only gets worse if you scratch it... medication is the best treatment.
manzanita man

Social climber
somerset, ca.
Dec 21, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
hey ron, i think its a good idea. i have caught 1000s of crawdads in tahoe and they tasted great. july 4th week in 2000, i was at a family reunion at zephyr cove, we had all the cabins, over 75 people. my uncle dropped his glasses off the end of the dock and i happened to have my snorkeling stuff with me. i dove down at the end of the dock and got the glasses but saw 100s of crawdads everywhere i looked down there. caught 100s at sand harbor also.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 16, 2013 - 02:10am PT
Boiled 15 of them up tonight. I figure you need 30 or so for a meal.

Pretty good, but no much meat for the work.
One of them had eggs. Not so tasty.

My gf, a vegetarian since age 6, even participated in murdering and eating of the lil'bastards.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 16, 2013 - 02:18am PT
Oh why does my brain not check the dates before i start reading. Oh well, happy ending.

PS, seriously....hope all the native and non natives sort themselves out before they are...outed.
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