"Made my Day" the Smith and Wesson way.

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donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 18, 2012 - 10:43am PT

A little off topic this. This reminds me of global warming....opponents of it come out with their own studies/graphs but the Vast Preponderance of the evidence points towards man caused global warming as a fact.
The same with gun availability and gun related homicides.

philo

Trad climber

Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?

Dec 18, 2012 - 10:44am PT

What evah brah.
No Rong in Switzerland it is safe to say banking for the world = civility. Get rid of all their guns and they would still be as civil.

Donini that is great glad you posted this up even if it is causing the Nutters such grief.
It must be like castration to them.

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Dec 18, 2012 - 10:52am PT

Brandon, rules/schmooles, the fully auto weapons are in the peoples' houses.
All they gotta do is take 'em out and let 'em rip. They don't cause they're
not a bunch of nutters, not because of a bunch of rules.

Alan Rubin

climber

Amherst,MA.

Dec 18, 2012 - 10:54am PT

Reilly, While gun ownership alone is not the only factor in this country's crime and homicide rates, it is a significant one. Looking at the graphs,while Switzerland's overall homicide rate is definitely much lower than ours, homicides by firearms there appear to be a much higher percentage of the overall homicide rate than they do in this country. Canada was the other country you mentioned, but again the graphs don't help your case very much. Canada's overall homicde rate is relatively high, especially given the relatively small population, and firearm homicides still appear to account for a good percentage of the reported homicides, more so than in most of the other countries listed except for the US, Switzerland, and Cyprus (where there is also a good correlation between the rate of firearm ownership and firearm homicides).

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Dec 18, 2012 - 11:02am PT

Alan, I would bet that the last graph represents private gun ownership
and not the military weaponry in most homes in Switzerland. Look at the
high murder rates of S Korea and Finland vs low gun ownership - clearly
those people like to cut each other up. I know for a fact that they do in
Finland.

Brandon-

climber

The Granite State.

Dec 18, 2012 - 11:14am PT

Ron, love is the biggest commodity.

;)

couchmaster

climber

pdx

Dec 18, 2012 - 11:14am PT

Where's the like button next to the forge? The man is clearly an artist.

BTW, great read on the gun issue below, I challenge those who want them all melted down to read it.

http://spectator.org/archives/2012/12/18/invincible-ignorance/

MikeL

climber

SANTA CLARA, CA

Dec 18, 2012 - 11:49am PT

I'm not so sure that making statistical comparisons across cultures is completely justifiable. To do so you have to first be sure that the populations that data are drawn from are the same or at least equivalent. What are the characteristics of "the population?" Are we talking about "the population of human beings?" That would be too broad.

Somehow one should take into account for culture and the values, beliefs, and norms of behavior that underpin culures. How do people value, think about, and use (e.g., their practices) guns in different cultures? One of the things the statistics impart is that people in different cultures are different.

For some of you that might mean that the problem of gun violence is not the guns--the problem lies in the people that give rise to the difference in violence rates. People in Japan and Norway are less violent people. So whether they have access to guns doesn't make any difference.

That interpretation of the data would be too simple. Both culture / people and access to guns lead to or influence each other. (We need more data than DMT's graph.)

One can simply adjust the freedom and pervasiveness of guns to a given culture based upon that culture's behaviors. If a culture shows itself to be violent, then guns should be more highly regulated. If a society (people, laws, etc.) can show that it handles various dangerous materials safely, then let them at it.

It's easy to see issues such as gun control and violence as questions of liberty and freedom. It's another thing to see the issues practically in terms of what constitutes "acceptable behaviors." I am a responsible member of my community, and if my community does stupid things, then I need to accept responsibility and the constraints to my behaviors and freedoms. It probably doesn't seem fair individually, but it's a question community responsibility and governance.

Liberty comes in two forms. Negative liberty means putting obstacles external to an agent that prevents him or her from doing what he wants. A person is free if no one is stopping them from doing what they want to do. Then there is positive liberty. To be free, one must be self-determined: one must control his or her own destiny toward their own interests. When one fails to control a passion they'd be happy to be rid of, which prevent one from realizing what is in their true interests, then one is not free--one is under control of uncontrollable emotion. One does not have freedom.

These ideas can be applied to communities.

Rousseau said that individual freedom is achieved through a process whereby one's community exercises collective control over its own affairs, to the extent that one participates in a democratic process. One would first have to accept responsibility for community behaviors by participating in controlling itself.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Dec 18, 2012 - 01:01pm PT

SteveA,
WTF is a "multiclip" gun?

I wonder how an experienced wall climber would feel if a ranger that never climbed told him that he was welcome to climb in the park but he could only have a blue camalot because that was all that he needed.

MikeL

climber

SANTA CLARA, CA

Dec 18, 2012 - 01:17pm PT

Koz:

I was speculating. If you are interested, you can look at how one academic has characterized different cultures.

http://geert-hofstede.com/countries.html (pick a country and see the data).

Hofstede's data are very broadly cut, and indeed countries look similar along his dimensions. As you say, for example, Australia and the US look similar by his account, but I'm not sure that people from either country would say the same thing as you. There may be more difference than driving lanes and "funny accents." History is a part of it, I imagine. Heck, the South in our own country is like another world than here in California.

In the end, we can't EXPLAIN anything to almost anyone's satisfaction. I think we first have our own ideas and commitments, and then we look around for data analysis to back them up.

I continue to favor a behavioral approach to the issue, though.

steveA

Trad climber

bedford,massachusetts

Dec 18, 2012 - 01:37pm PT

Ron,

Sorry, but that is what this governor, ( don't remember which state) called them.

I'm sure what he meant is limiting the size of the clip or magazine.

My guess is there will be a number of politicians introducing new bills on these issues, after the new year, and there will be one hell of a fight on both sides.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Dec 18, 2012 - 01:44pm PT

Melt 200 million of today's 310 million guns. If you can't manage all goals with the remaining 110 million guns then gun owners are too incompetent to own them.

Chaz

Trad climber

greater Boss Angeles area

Dec 18, 2012 - 01:44pm PT

The biggest "clip" I've seen holds five rounds. ( edit for memory update: eight rounds in the Garrand clip ) I'm not sure what will be accomplished by limiting their size.

A "magazine" is a different thing, however.

We need to be especially sure of our terminology when proposing law.

Clips and magazines are as different from one another as bolts and cams are.

klk

Trad climber

cali

Dec 18, 2012 - 01:54pm PT

Clips and magazines are as different from one another as bolts and cams are.

yeah, and it is true that pedantry matters when it comes to law. but i'm not too worried that some redneck lawyer will accidentally write "banana clip" instead of 'magazine."

i also call "engines" "motors." drove my shop teacher nuts. and i say "sierras." drives dmt nuts.

Chief

climber

The NW edge of The Hudson Bay

Dec 18, 2012 - 02:29pm PT

Jim,

Thanks for the thought provoking post.
There's a lot of room to interpret the messages that may be intended or implied.
Firearm ownership is a political hot potato and an emotional subject on both sides of our border, particularly in light of recent events.

Most of the firearms discussed are designed primarily for killing people and I agree we'd all be better off living in a world where such devices weren't necessary.
Unfortunately we're not there yet and probably never will be.
I think the corollary between firearm proliferation, ease of acquisition and gun crime is for the most part, supported by evidence, Switzerland not withstanding.
The US may be unique in having the right to bear arms enshrined in it's constitution and that's a tough row to hoe.
Good luck.

In Canada, firearms are still a rural necessity for many for hunting and protection from wildlife.
For us firearm ownership is not a right but a privilege that comes with a high degree of personal and social responsibility. It's not perfect but most of us can live with the arrangement.

The Smith and Wesson in question is a classic sidearm chosen by many for hunting, wildlife protection and marksmanship.

The comments I posted earlier provoked a couple strong responses and I thought I'd do the courtesy of putting them in context.

Too bad about the Smith and Wesson.
I'd advocate doing that to the shooter before I'd ruin a nice pistol.

I'm all for strict gun control laws and responsible firearm ownership.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Dec 18, 2012 - 06:00pm PT

The reiterations ad nauseum that there is no justifiable reason for somebody to own an AR 15 are all by people who ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to read any of the newspaper articles cited in the Armed Citizen that detail how precisely those weapons were used, sometimes without firing a shot, to deter armed assaults by criminals who would otherwise be free to victimize somebody else.

Their immature stance is to say, "LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA ,..........."

Riley, do you have the guts to read newspaper article that detail how so called assault rifles have been used for self-defense?

zBrown

Ice climber

chingadero de chula vista

Dec 18, 2012 - 08:44pm PT

Apologies to Joni Mitchell and Smith and Wesson.

They took all the guns and put 'em in a gun museum.
Charged all the people a dollar and a half to seem them.

In the interests of fair play, I'd advocate for waiving the fee for documented gun lovers.