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Messages 41 - 60 of total 72 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Dec 18, 2012 - 10:06am PT
Nohea--"More guns however does mean less crime"

Show us the statistics that support this claim.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 18, 2012 - 10:09am PT
Show us the statistics that support this claim.

photo not found
Missing photo ID#278911

That was too easy.

Many, many countries, just like ours, have much lower rates of gun homicides.

It's not because these countries found a cure for mental illness.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 18, 2012 - 10:15am PT
yeah sure -- i posted a graph the other day that says totally different results, so i guess its all in who does the graphs.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 18, 2012 - 10:16am PT
What was your source, Ron? The above graph states UN/Washington Post.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 18, 2012 - 10:22am PT
go look at the other thread its there somewhere.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 18, 2012 - 10:32am PT
hmmm because i dont care to repost something thats already there, im a coward now?? WEAK man WEAK!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 18, 2012 - 10:33am PT
Dave, Canada has a pretty high gun ownership rate and they're not killing
each other. Half the houses in Switzerland have military automatic weapons
in them and they're not killing each other. There must be another factor, or two.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 18, 2012 - 10:38am PT
what eveah Ding...



And Rielly, Those Swiss are ALL gunnutz muderous sobs because they HAVE guns in fact, semi auto assualt types- each and every household from what ive been told. They shoot them every year to stay sharp- at govenrmnet expense too! And have a VERY CIVIL society..So in Switzerland is it safe to say guns= civility?
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 18, 2012 - 10:41am PT
Switzerland has a limited army. The guns are a part of the militia that serves in place of an army. Switzerland has far more rules and regulations regarding firearms than we do.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 18, 2012 - 10:43am PT
A little off topic this. This reminds me of global warming....opponents of it come out with their own studies/graphs but the Vast Preponderance of the evidence points towards man caused global warming as a fact.
The same with gun availability and gun related homicides.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 18, 2012 - 10:44am PT
What evah brah.
No Rong in Switzerland it is safe to say banking for the world = civility. Get rid of all their guns and they would still be as civil.


Donini that is great glad you posted this up even if it is causing the Nutters such grief.
It must be like castration to them.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 18, 2012 - 10:45am PT
Never bought off on that one JD,, too many theories..

Has the globe not changed without our help? Certainly it has. Tahoe was once 600 feet less deep than now, and was that way for at least 600 years as eveidenced by old growth stumps 600 feet below the surface now.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 18, 2012 - 10:52am PT
Brandon, rules/schmooles, the fully auto weapons are in the peoples' houses.
All they gotta do is take 'em out and let 'em rip. They don't cause they're
not a bunch of nutters, not because of a bunch of rules.
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Dec 18, 2012 - 10:54am PT
Reilly, While gun ownership alone is not the only factor in this country's crime and homicide rates, it is a significant one. Looking at the graphs,while Switzerland's overall homicide rate is definitely much lower than ours, homicides by firearms there appear to be a much higher percentage of the overall homicide rate than they do in this country. Canada was the other country you mentioned, but again the graphs don't help your case very much. Canada's overall homicde rate is relatively high, especially given the relatively small population, and firearm homicides still appear to account for a good percentage of the reported homicides, more so than in most of the other countries listed except for the US, Switzerland, and Cyprus (where there is also a good correlation between the rate of firearm ownership and firearm homicides).
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 18, 2012 - 11:02am PT
Alan, I would bet that the last graph represents private gun ownership
and not the military weaponry in most homes in Switzerland. Look at the
high murder rates of S Korea and Finland vs low gun ownership - clearly
those people like to cut each other up. I know for a fact that they do in
Finland.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 18, 2012 - 11:12am PT
I know guys in Iran, Norway, Finland, England, Scottland and Ireland, Portugal and Spain, etc etc.. All gun owners and users. They have the same access to the black market as we do also.

Guns are the second largest "commodity" out there- right after drugs..
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 18, 2012 - 11:14am PT
Ron, love is the biggest commodity.

;)
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 18, 2012 - 11:14am PT
Where's the like button next to the forge? The man is clearly an artist.

BTW, great read on the gun issue below, I challenge those who want them all melted down to read it.

http://spectator.org/archives/2012/12/18/invincible-ignorance/

MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 18, 2012 - 11:49am PT
I'm not so sure that making statistical comparisons across cultures is completely justifiable. To do so you have to first be sure that the populations that data are drawn from are the same or at least equivalent. What are the characteristics of "the population?" Are we talking about "the population of human beings?" That would be too broad.

Somehow one should take into account for culture and the values, beliefs, and norms of behavior that underpin culures. How do people value, think about, and use (e.g., their practices) guns in different cultures? One of the things the statistics impart is that people in different cultures are different.

For some of you that might mean that the problem of gun violence is not the guns--the problem lies in the people that give rise to the difference in violence rates. People in Japan and Norway are less violent people. So whether they have access to guns doesn't make any difference.

That interpretation of the data would be too simple. Both culture / people and access to guns lead to or influence each other. (We need more data than DMT's graph.)

One can simply adjust the freedom and pervasiveness of guns to a given culture based upon that culture's behaviors. If a culture shows itself to be violent, then guns should be more highly regulated. If a society (people, laws, etc.) can show that it handles various dangerous materials safely, then let them at it.

It's easy to see issues such as gun control and violence as questions of liberty and freedom. It's another thing to see the issues practically in terms of what constitutes "acceptable behaviors." I am a responsible member of my community, and if my community does stupid things, then I need to accept responsibility and the constraints to my behaviors and freedoms. It probably doesn't seem fair individually, but it's a question community responsibility and governance.

Liberty comes in two forms. Negative liberty means putting obstacles external to an agent that prevents him or her from doing what he wants. A person is free if no one is stopping them from doing what they want to do. Then there is positive liberty. To be free, one must be self-determined: one must control his or her own destiny toward their own interests. When one fails to control a passion they'd be happy to be rid of, which prevent one from realizing what is in their true interests, then one is not free--one is under control of uncontrollable emotion. One does not have freedom.

These ideas can be applied to communities.

Rousseau said that individual freedom is achieved through a process whereby one's community exercises collective control over its own affairs, to the extent that one participates in a democratic process. One would first have to accept responsibility for community behaviors by participating in controlling itself.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 18, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
Half the houses in Switzerland have military automatic weapons in them and they're not killing each other.


That's because they understand the concept of "militia" better than our own supreme court.

I will agree that the "cultural differences" thing has some merit, but it does not account for the order of magnitude differences between gun violence rates.

Take away the left side of the road thing and the funny accents, and Australia is practically the same country as the US.

Where are they on the chart?
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