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thekidcormier
Gym climber
squamish, b.c.
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 15, 2012 - 02:39am PT
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Evenin' folks;
I inherited a sh#t ton of pitons the other day and jt got me thinking.. It got me thinking about the destructing act of bashing pins into tiny seams over and over until larger pitons are needed then eventually cams and possibly fingers.
I'm even told that BITD the the free climbers clipped Ito "fixed pins" during first ascent of burly cracks.
So tonight's question for the Pnut gallery is "what role do pitons play in the evolution for crack climbing?".
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BooDawg
Social climber
Butterfly Town
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Dec 15, 2012 - 02:46am PT
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Pitons, repeatedly driven into Serenity Crack and so many other climbs, eventually allowed them to be climbed free and to eventually be protected by nuts and cams and therefore be climbed "clean." Evolution is a fact, not a theory!
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 15, 2012 - 02:51am PT
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Dude, I know you wanna go out and bash some iron. I can feel it all the way down here. Aren't there a few routes in Squamish that you can still bring a hammer on? I think there are a couple left at Index that you could get away with it. What has this world come to? I know it's not sustainable but it sure is fun and you get an idea of what the pioneers of this sport went through. I feel lucky that when I did the Tang. Trip and Mescalito there was still quite a bit of hammer work involved. Not lucky that I carried all those pins. If I did those routes nowadays, I would take a totally different approach.
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thekidcormier
Gym climber
squamish, b.c.
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2012 - 03:08am PT
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Tons of routes up here to nail on 2nd 3rd ascents of stout nailing for those brave enough to venture up there. Pan granitic frogman, son of pan, the raven, Etc. etc.
Lots of nailing to be had around here.
But my question was How do you think pitons assisted the progression of free climbing.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Dec 15, 2012 - 03:11am PT
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As compared to what?
I can't speculate on if they never existed... maybe we'd be more terrible, or toproping would be the way to go, or onsight bouldering became the only real style... who knows?
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 15, 2012 - 03:12am PT
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Duh, I know, but Ken pretty well summed it up about Serenity. What, do you want make some new free routes with your new pin rack?
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:20am PT
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It got me thinking about the destructing act of bashing pins into tiny seams over and over until larger pitons are needed then eventually cams and possibly fingers.
Not always the case. Not all rock is granite, and not all cracks are granite seams.
All free climbing was originally done with pitons. All. Free climbing did not evolve without pitons.
Pitons still play a major role in free climbing in the alpine setting. The shittier the rock, the more likely pitons will be useful or even mandatory. Of course, this is entirely rock and route dependent.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 09:22am PT
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http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/blog/index/view/slug/bd-athlete-and-tech-rep-jp-ouellet-makes-first-ascent-of-mexican-snow-fairy-513-in-moab-utah
I thin I see the future. It's a lot thinker.
Pitons generally take almost no thinking to place. Stacking, that's different, but when you need to stack, that says the crack's probable wide enough for a cam of petite dimensions. Half the fun of climbing now seems to be trying to stuff in a couple of pieces or two of "the clean" as opposed to the surety of "the dirty old school" driven to the hilt in an incipient crack. Might just as well put in a bolt and save the original crack.
Retro has its place, but not here.
I know the history of Serenity is the parable of parables with its name and the irony associated with it. Yes, irony, pinhead. The furthur into the futeere we go the wider the cracks get, because erosion happens. Melt those dudes into scrap and sell them, buy some camming devices and be happy. You have no idea of how little it takes to screw up a crack with pins. Especially soft rock.
As for the iron rack Werner has and is trying to sell, I want them to go to someone, anyone, as long as they want or think they might want them...
If I end up eating them, so to speak, meh.
As for the history, the climbers like Gervasutti, whose standards were rigid, simply ignored the hazards and risked butt rather than put in a piton, which took time and could be fatal in and of itself. They put one in if no other way presented itself, generally, but did their use actually raise the standards?
Can't see it, myself. They eschewed placement and did it anyway, in many cases. See, the leader did not fall back then. Never! They had crap--manila ropes, my God! Homemade pitons that even Fossil Climber could break! Jaysus! Those ol' boys would blow it if they saw how quick and safe cams are.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:17am PT
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When I started climbing in the 60's pitons were the primary form of protection. Runners were also used to sling horns, chockstones and trees......nuts were just appearing on the scene and cams were over a decade away.
Climbing was also much more centralized, many of today's popular areas had yet to be discovered. Yosemite was the mecca for innovation, especially in aid climbing and big walls. The emphasis in Yosemite was more about getting up a rock feature than the style in which it was climbed. The late 50's and 60's with the first ascents of Half Dome and El Cap were called Yosemite's Golden Age.
I showed up in 1970 just as the next wave of climbers were exploring the possibilities of free climbing. Only a few of the easier routes on the Cookie, Reeds and Arch Rock had been climbed. Over the next few years many of these routes were climbed and the 5.11 grade was established. There was also an emphasis on "free climbing" routes that had been established with aid.
In concert with these developments was the huge emphasis on "clean climbing." Yosemite was particularly vulnerable to rock scarring from pitons. There were also tremendous advances in nut design which enabled climbers to climb safetly were only pitons had been
used. Climbers racks had fewer and fewer pitons until (for many) they disappeared
altogether. By the end of the 70's cams would be in use and crack climbing would be changed forever.
These factors, taken together, led to a few climbs that were originally aid but became free climbs of which Serenity Crack is the poster child. You could spend a lifetime, even in Yosemite, and never climb a route that was made possible because of pin scars. That is one reason why I have been always mystified by the popularity of Serenity Crack....I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:22am PT
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Jim it's safe to say that the draw of Serenity Crack is not the first pitch.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:27am PT
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Correct....and I have done the climb, but with so many other options now, I just marvel at the lines waiting to get on it.
Yosemite is a prime example of the 80/20 rule but in the Valley it's more like 98/2. Why don't people get out and explore more?
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:30am PT
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Trailblazers have always been few amongst our kind, Jim. I completely agree though.
BTW Kid, with the advent of big peckers & Tomahawks, KBs aren't used nearly as much as they used to be.
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Borut
Mountain climber
Ljubljana, Slovenia
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:03am PT
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Lost arrows, leepers, baby angles and a sh#t ton of knife blades! Thanks Peder.
I promise to drive em, drop em, smash em, lose em, lend em, stack em and tie them off!!!
Credit: thekidcormier and don't forget to extract them carefully if you do.
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PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:20am PT
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thekidcormier,
interesting question. There are a few places that developed without pitons (namely parts of the UK, and in the Elbe Sandstone Mountains.
Both places produced amazing climbers.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:21am PT
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No historical context here, but I will fix a pin now and again in granite whilst free climbing a first ascent of a line if no other clean protection placement is available. Generally the pin is a Lost Arrow type or larger knifeblade (Bugaboo) since they hold up better over time than the thin knifeblades. I rarely employ angles since you can usually use a nut for that size crack.
I like Jim's 98/2 rule for the Valley. Indeed, one can have a wilderness experience with an hour or two hike (or less) and climb some fantastic obscurities with no other humans in sight. Of course during the summer season, you can still hear the PA of the green dragon every hour or so. And the rumble of bikers folks who eschew mufflers. Winter solves both those problems!
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Myles Moser
climber
Lone Pine, Ca
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:25am PT
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How much for the arrows and KB's?
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Grampa
climber
from SoCal
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:35am PT
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Well Son, lemme tell you a story.....
There was a time, long, long ago, on a rock far, far away....
OK, enough bull.
Let me take you back in time. Let's visit the one and only climbing store within 80 miles of your home and view the climbing hardware section in the locked glass case. See the shiny pitons, the new hammers and the really useless stuff from England that look like blocks of metal, which of course, no self respecting "real" climber would ever use. Gaze upon the latest technology, steel bongs with lightening holes!
With a wink and nod, ask the guy behind the counter if you can see the bolt gear. If you don't look like a narc, he will dig out the dusty box and behold the devil's tools: drills and bolts that permanently deface the rock. Oh, the shame of bolting....
Now, imagine yourself at the base of the rock with your hammer in holster, maybe 20ish heavy steel pitons, a bunch of oval biners and some tied slings. You tie the goldline rope to your swammi belt, make sure your belayer has the rope around his waist, has a firm grip on the rope and is sort of awake.
Now, climb and get up to a point where you want protection!!!
Clinging desperately with one hand and the other hand free, find a clean crack, not flaring, not shallow and not crumbling. Find a pin that fits about 2/3 of the way into the crack and jam it in as tight as you can with your hand. Reach for your hammer and make that all critical first tap. Hit it straight, otherwise you will knock it out of the crack and watch it bounce to the ground.
Now, pound that baby in until it makes a nice high pitched tink, tink, tink sound. Swing that hammer like a man, but don't knock yourself of that tiny edge you are standing on. Drop your hammer (this is the reason piton hammers have a sling), reach for an oval and clip it into the pin. Finally you can clip your goldline rope directly to the binner and you are safe!!!!!
Climb and repeat as needed. Ahhhh, the good ole days....
No quickdraws, no cams, no nuts, no sewn skinny slings. No need for a harness, no belay devices, no helmets and, by today's standards, slippery shoes.
It is probably hard for people who started climbing in the cam era to imagine such medieval conditions, but that was the norm back then.
By asking if people did things with pitons, you assume they had a choice. Well, no, there was no choice. We climbed with what we had and loved every second of it.
So, I suggest you go find an obscure boulder, take some of your pins and pound away. Then try to get them out. Pitons BITD were relatively expensive and the main reason there were fixed pins was because somebody could not get the dang thing out.
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m_jones
Trad climber
Carson City, NV
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
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I would venture to say that all free routes on el cap are pin scar dependent. If the evolution of the piton had not stopped when clean pro took over for #3 lost arrow and larger there would be far fewer free routes on El Cap at least. Not that that is good or bad it just is.
So I found an obscure boulder. Took a couple of tomahawks and did a little test.
This was bomber but only in about 3/8" or so would have been rather spicy after a few hook moves somewhere up high! Removed it and placed it again in the same spot. This time a light tap seated it. Bounce tested and removed. Third placement it was fully seated. then moved on to placing a #2 in the same place. Seating it each time (even though it was a bomber hand placement) and removing it by hand.
This is the scar after 50 placements. Each time tapped in by a hammer, bounce tested and hand removed.
And just to give the scar scale.
Not that I am adverse to doing my part in creating more free climbing on el cap but the main reason to use this type of pin is to maintain some of the adventure when aid climbing. And not the random adventure of wondering when you are going to pull a fixed head ladder.
Take a butter knife when aid climbing - remove useless copper heads and look for a spot for a tomahawk/beak. If you find one use it and get rid of the other fixed copperheads you do not need.
Imagine if the triple cracks had been done first with beaks!
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thekidcormier
Gym climber
squamish, b.c.
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
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Thanks Max. I saw you had posted this elsewhere at some point, very cool experiment.
Have the triple cracks been free climbed? Some of those inherited pitons pictured about were smashed in there on the 5th ascent! Do they take hand placed pro now?
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
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It'll be AWHILE before the Triple Cracks are freed.
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