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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 29, 2006 - 06:49am PT
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I posted this in a thread that asked if racks were now too big on rc.communism.
Note to the PC, easily offended crowd, you might not want to read this. You need a sense of humor to fully appreciate it.
*
What you mutts don't understand, is that carrying too much gear is part of an art--
the art of screwing the parasitic second!
Consider, the second, who climbs the route on your dime, criticises your placments, carps about your speed, laughs at your weakness, short ropes you at a critical moment, forgets the beer, you name it.
But most importantly, he climbs without the extra weight of the rack.
So heres how it works.
YOU drag your huge rack up to the crux. YOU hang all excess gear at the crux. You pull the crux, and finish.
Now, when the slimeball smug second reaches the crux, he has to carry all the extra weight through it.
ROTFLMAO!!!!!
I am probably going to get in big trouble for telling this dark secret of trad, but I don't care. IT's high time someone gave out good information about this big rack business, and now you know...
the rest of the story!
Apologies to Paul Harvey.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2006 - 08:18am PT
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Riely, that is the beauty of it, you only leave the excess. Carry it ALL up to the crux, hang the stuff you don't think you need for the rest of the route right there, move on, and let the second pull though the crux, carrying hopefully 15 pounds of gear.
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Bryan Kent
Trad climber
Dawson Creek B.C.
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May 29, 2006 - 11:54am PT
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Hey Dirt what does ROTFLMAO!!! mean.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 29, 2006 - 12:05pm PT
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Well Dirt Daddy,
There's two sides to this scenario for sure, both pretty funny IMHO.
Like, I much prefer leading, yes rack weight is an issue (see diet rack as a natty solution) but I much prefer wiggling the little nutzies in on lead to getting them out on second.
On lead, you have focus and adrenaline working for you.
On follow, you have a gaping void beneath you and the fear of failure nipping at your heels.
Getting stuff out on the follow can really bungle things.
Russ Walling once became so disgusted with this prospect that for the better part of a decade, (and perhaps still), he refused to do any more following of my leads or any others for that matter!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2006 - 12:52pm PT
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Rolling
On
The
Floor
Laughing
My
A$$
Off
!!!!!
This is the ORIGINAL FORM of ROFL, rolling on floor laughing.
1993,-96 and longer, I used to write to this unix developer, first in PA then in CA, as we played USCF postal chess.
COmputer dudes love acronyms, and our letters woudl have things like this:
WIIWYIWR (Well, if I were you I would resign)
And the other guy woud have to translate and repeat , then offer his own back.
they got pretty long, and I still have a pile of very funny letters from blake.
Somewhere in there we switched to computers, and of course used ROTFLMAO!! a lot, cause we thought we were really funny , and we were.
I'm not saying we invented it, but we sure used it. Others used it too. Later it got shortened to ROFL by nincompoops.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 29, 2006 - 12:53pm PT
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A varient.
After I followed Dingus McGee (the OTHER Dingus) on the crux pitch of lucky streaks he asked me if I used the unlikely hold in the roof (or something like that) I told him I had.
"When I did this with old slichter, I did the move with that hold, then reached back and wiped the chalk off so he wouldn't see it, he had a hell of a time with it," said the dirty Mr McGee. "He's the kinda guy you gotta do that with."
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2006 - 01:16pm PT
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Tar-babay, yo uare SO right about that fear of failure!!
I am MUCH happier failing on lead than on second LOL!
BUT, to be fair, the leader MUST screw the second at every opportunity
He must give bad beta, he must place gear in the hand holds that are critical, sometimes even repreating the phrase," I'm afraid I Fvucked you on that move, sorry", and he must do what he can to allow the second to have as much excitement as the lead offered.
The onlyu thing that is off limits is dropping the poor SOB. THAT is just dirty pool, ALTHOUGH, if the second hangs around complaining that a piece is too hard to get out, a little penalty dip IS allowed.
Furthermore, when the second begins to curse you for your desperately crammed in gear that is now welded in place, the leader MUST have witty repartee prepared IN ADVANCE, so that it rolls off the tongue with stand up comedic precision, for example:
Second: "SH#T!" (leader feels good tug on rope indicating second has come off while trying to remove disgustedly welded bit of shiny metal)
Leader: "ARE you OK?"
Second: 'FVCK YOU!"
leader: " BE the best you ever had, Jimbo, climb on!"
OK Tar-baby, I hope this little tutorial has helped. You seem to feel that the leader owes the second some sort of consideration, but, in fact, he does not.
Um, how are your forearms doing?
I am feeling pretty good myself, if this keeps up, in the hoped for future, we will have to climb this hourglass thing together, adn I want you to know what is expected in advance.
BTW, the second only needs 4 words for his climbing vocab, in two essential phrases, and they are,
1. "Bite Me!"
2. "Fvck You!"
I have already given the proper and expected response to "Fvck You", and the correct reply to "Bite Me!" , is "Hang it out there and I will, clean off, don't be shy."
YOu will notice that the leader's responses are much longer and more complicated than the belayer's, and that is because, leaders are much smarter than belayers, and have a better vocabulary.
OF course other words may be added, but they are not often needed. Any four letter word is acceptable. 7 letter words are considered too high brow.
Welcome to southern climbing!
NOte: This is all true, not made up, and the dialog is based entirely on real events, with my best friend in climbing and favorite partner, who has the foulest mouth in the south and also is the best whiner you will ever hear put on a whine fest.
He also has a dog that knows her way around every decent area, and when you go there for the first time, the dog will lead you out, stopping to wait for you to catch up at every point where you could go wrong. The dog's name is Star, the climber's name is withheld to protect the guilty. YOu may wonder why the dog woudl be leading you out, and that is because the dog's owner is off somewhere retrieving something he dropped, or gone back for something he forgot, or trying to figure out why his pack is so heavy (rocking you partner's pack without detection is another story)
Second note: I wrote this for the sole amusement of Tar-Baby, who I really like, and who made me feel much better last week, when I was in chemo hell. IF it offends you, GOOD! If you think it is funny, that's good too. We can talk.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 29, 2006 - 01:47pm PT
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nice.
all troo.
totally applicable.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 29, 2006 - 02:07pm PT
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it's a wonder i have any partners left.
...wait, i don't.
anyhow, there are other quirky notes to this leader follower relationship.
*Right of the leader to revel in hard won adrenalin buzz*
*Nuisance to the follower of an overly tight belay from above*
:
Hey, I just wupped arse on some gem of a lead and you expect a taught belay and watchful eye?
Fuhgettaboutit bub.
I'm starin' off into the distance, uploading residual adrenaline like a junkie. Your rope will come up loosely and in good time. Sheet, onlead, I had the same if not worse cosequence to a fall as the little bit of slack yer getting, so what gives? Besides, as a follower, I personally hate a tight rope, getting slapped in the face as it gets jerked tight, or worse: getting yarded in to the rock on follow by a tight belay when I'm tryin to lean back in a lieback. Scott Cosgrove called the loose belay for the second a "Roy Belay". Oh Well, Ho Hum. I do my best.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2006 - 02:29pm PT
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ROy, that is so cerebral, you need to talk to werner or soemthing.
Jaybro, excellent!!!!
On the FA of Under the Bigtop, BSF, last year I think, no wait year before, not in guide yet, or maybe it is, I don't ahve a copy LOL, Stegg leading of course, I get to the crux, not knowing he finally had to aid though it, struggle mightily, no good, struggle some more, no good, finally I decide he has put chalk on this little rugosity as a cruel hoax, no way anyone can use it to climb up, resort to aid, think Stegg must be a god after all, wonder how the hell he did the rest of it with almost no gear, thin edges, all dirty and licheny, dead vertical very balancy, flailing up, almost out of gas, a deadpoint to a tiny lip, barely get it, then done.
I accuse him of the fake hold where the chalk was, he matter of factly says he aided though that part, I amd thinking, um, couldn't you have TOLD Me that, before I spent half an hour on one move, suffering, trying what must be 5.12 or so??????
Bit I got him back by tricking him into leading a crack in georgia that was FILLED with Poison Ivy with roots that were an inch and a half thick, he had to use s machete to get it out, and the way I got him to do it is that he says he don't get PI, so I said, well how about that crack, it looks great, and you dont get PI, and he jumps on it, and two hours and 40 feet ( taller, but 40 feet of PI filled crack) there is now a very nice asthetically cool low moderate where a huge mass of PI had been. Machete crack.
well it sort of backfired, in all the debris falling down, I got a good dose of PI, so I was taking cortesone and itching anyway, called him up next day, " Hey shannon, you got any poison ivy?"
A low gravelly dead pan voice replies, in a measured monotone, "From head to toe." I bust out laughing, "ME TOO!", we laugh our A$$es off.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 29, 2006 - 02:49pm PT
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i'm also fond of lounging around till the last possible moment, then blasting off the couch for the pre-dusk crag sesh.
this means i usually top out in glorious sun, with the chilly shadows rising all too fast and washing over my second.
same goes for impending rain, where i hit the protected stance while the watery onslaught drenches my follower, adding to the objective difficulty already ensuing per removal of the welded gear.
what a jerk.
i will handily dispense more wisdom as it leaks out from wrinkled brain.
no i have knott consulted a professional shrink on these issues.
and no, i think werner is right now too busy to help me with these cerebral matters...
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2006 - 02:59pm PT
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D@mn, right again Roy!!
The sacred art of the last minute dash, preceded by the frustrating delay, double whammy, Amen, praise it with great praise!
made one partner so mad whit this glorious technique we didnt even do the climb, and he didn't dpeak to me for a month, ROTFLMAO!
But we kissed and made up and went on to invent the high sport of no hands leading, when we were both injured (not climbing related, we never get hurt climbing, but life on the gound IS dangerous) but that is yet another tale, involving the funniest climber in the south.
Man, your GOOD, Roy!
Therapy??? We don't need no stinking therapy!!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 29, 2006 - 03:24pm PT
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OK,
here's one of my faves.
proper respect for and exploitation of the protege.
yup, got a chance to clean up a lotta routes on my obscure tour list with this one:
Guy Kenny, one of my best pals and most eager followers, pretty much got trial by fire on this account. as he was about a 5.8/9 follower, i started upping the ante quite a bit, as i am a selfish cur and don't mind soaking loyalty to the limit.
he'll tell you that just about everything we did was either offwidth, loose, overhung, 5.10 or all of the above.
case in point: for our ascent of the 3-4 pitch "Turncorner" on Lumpy Ridge, which features a natty 'ole Robbins 5.9/10 overhanging squeeze crux, i pretty much shamed guy into following it even though we both new he was way too hung over even for the approach, much less the climb.
guy proudly claims to have puked at the crux on the follow.
*selection of follower is key*
here's guy before, during and after various ascents we made with him cleanin' and doin' a fine job I might add:
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 29, 2006 - 05:20pm PT
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We are a strange bunch.
Cheers!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 29, 2006 - 05:34pm PT
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LOL Jay,
We are a strange bunch indeed; a "Ship of Fools" as you might aptly concur.
Hugs and kisses all around.
Just yesterday, I met 3 pals for a 4th class 14 'er ridge romp.
I provided all the ice axes for our band of fools and one of them, an experienced Frenchman, showed up with two footwear options:
Tevas with sox or Sorels. Hmm, antogonistic? Just a wee bit?
All in all, that type of equipage on the part of the frenchie shows much the same style of lead folow antogonism (or tacit agreeement if done well) which this fine thread chooses to honor.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 29, 2006 - 05:35pm PT
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Shannon Stegg, hmmm.
I seem to recall him getting screwed by HIS second, but actually by his own hand!
Imagine a climber who has driven 2-3 days from Georgia. Enters Zion Canyon and is so jazzed to get on the rock that he gives an impromtu belay lesson to a nonclimber, ties into the middle of a 60m 9mm and climbs the 20m first pitch of Flails'.
Then he has the novice lower him.
You do the math.
10m off the deck the ends without knots slip through the belay.
I was up on Prodigal when I hear the wailing of the ambulance.
Word was that he recovered OK.
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
Tahoe
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May 29, 2006 - 05:41pm PT
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The only problem with screwing the second is that some time or another you swap leads, and then he/she screws you!
=)
So be careful (or just nice.)
-Aaron
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 29, 2006 - 05:45pm PT
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Shyte Ron,
That's Real.
Wait till I post my story about my buddy, who had never belayed or climbed on rope, jugging Wunsch's for me in the South Platte.
Now, in all fairness to our readers I will reveal that fellows I've done this with, namely Guy and Jeff, were in posession of such a wiz bang mechanical and intuitive character so that I was in fact making very sound judgements...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 29, 2006 - 05:49pm PT
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Tahoe,
Be advised that this is mostly tongue in cheek and the product of somewhat inevitable details shared amongst climbers, some of which are heartily embraced with a certain degree of brinksmanship and humorous aquiescence on the part of the individuals involved.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 29, 2006 - 05:49pm PT
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oh yeah, it's a reflexive art.
-back from field testing the maxipad™, after a year of rest, it still protects 49yr old ankles, knees etc.
On to X-3
Happy holiday, all.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 29, 2006 - 06:02pm PT
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glad to hear it jay.
subthread will be the reflexive art of the heckling spotters and what a great thing it is to share a supportive group dynamic, be it overtly so or knott...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 29, 2006 - 06:17pm PT
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So back in the 70s I went to do the Third Flatiron with Bob Denberg and to get more "rock" we start at the very bottom of the slab.
On one lead I climb around a corner and a ways up I find a hole about 8"X11" to thread. But instead of slinging it I pull up slack from Bob, unseen below, clip into a loop, thread my end through the hole, then tie back in and finish the lead by climbing back around the corner to his side.
Then I bring him up and say nothing.
The rope moves quickly but then stops.
Ever so quietly I lean out and peek around the corner and there is Bob trying to stick his head through the hole....
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
Tahoe
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May 29, 2006 - 06:26pm PT
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Awesome story Piton!
Nice going, Jaybro!
And yes, I understand that Tarbruster - Don't think I haven't pulled the same.
If you're a sketched leader, fvck the second!
=)
okgo
-Aaron
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 29, 2006 - 07:11pm PT
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hey waitduh minitt,
who said anything about sketched, mr tahoe...
(haha)
rondo:
i've gotta go find that tie thru hole on the 3rd flatiron.
i can and i will, cuz i'm that kinda guy.
plus it's just down the road a piece...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 29, 2006 - 07:22pm PT
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If I remember (after 30 years) its about 200' up from the very bottom.
Who you planning on sandbagging? Somebody thin I hope.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2006 - 08:50pm PT
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Poor tahoe climber, he will learn one day. He needs to stop climbing on a short suburban though.
Who is talking tongue in cheek here? Everything I have said happened. And still happens. As long as you don't kill your second, he has to come back for revenge, right???
LOL about Stegg, the saying around here is that god keeps him alive for entertainment value.
And about the middle of a 60, climb up 20, lower off, OOPS! problem, well, let's just say I can't go telling stories about my friends, but, um, well, if I were mean, I'd have a LOT of gear cause SOMEONE has walked off and left a rather large number of pieces, one or two at a time, lying here and there, over time.
And I have been dropped, though not far, won't say by who, LOL.
But really, you can't have a better friend than Stegg. And his luck does rub off, so I am very happy we hit it off and have had some GREAT times together, like the time when I had the cast still on my elbow and met him at jamestown cause he wanted to get this FA done before some pals stole it, LOL. I was pretty depressed about breaking the elbow, the day before I had been on this very cool wet shrub choked overhanging crack with extremely cool moves and an offwith crux move, never been climbed before, we figure at least 5.11, and then, next day, no climbing for 12 WEEKS!!!!!!
But Steg called and I went and even though I could not climb at all, the dirt and crud falling all around me from the FA just made me happy, and I was laughing about it and we agreed that the sound of dirt, leaves, rocks and other crap hitting the ground during an FA was sweet music indeed!!!!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2006 - 08:52pm PT
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RONBO! LOL, that is PRICELESSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 29, 2006 - 09:14pm PT
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I'm not exactly sure what, but Shannon has some kind of record for the smallest fraction of the time required to "approach" in order to require some form of medical evacuation.
About one sixtieth I think.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2006 - 09:50pm PT
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Yeah but he is a great guy. And one of my real friends.
And he has a great sense of humor!
He is absolutely fearless. OR just does not know any better.
Corbet says between stegg and me, he can't figure out who is dumber, LOL.
thaT poison ivy crack I wrote about?
Corbett had started up the same crack years ago, decided not to go thought the PI, traversed left to a dihedral, a bit too far as it turns out, found no gear, proceeded to climb the dihedral, rope now useless, and so in true corbet climb-while-terrified style, put up a not worth repeating climb known as rat trap, a huge zigzag X moronic route.
His comment on STegg n me cleaning out the PI and making a very nice straight climb out of his disaster, was, "Only you two are stpid enough to do that.".
When I pointed out that our line was not in fact a potentially deadly trap for a rather big rat, he didn't have much to say except, "Bite Me!"
ROTFLMAO!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2006 - 10:03am PT
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Shameless bump.
So Tahoe climber can learn the one true way!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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May 30, 2006 - 04:02pm PT
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dirtneye, that form of trickery is what we call "illegal dumping."
I do it every time I carry big units.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2006 - 04:17pm PT
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Kman, when I was in good shape, I routinely carried 20 pounds of gear, not counting the slings and biners on my harness.
I would really like to be able to do that again, and have a camera set up for when the second gets to around 12 pounds of junk he is going to add on for the hard part of the climb, in addition to what he has already cleaned, and I place a LOT of gear, hehe.
But hte prize, the grand prize, goes to Piton Ron, for running hte rope though a hole and retying in, and finding his second trying to get through the hole
That is pure genius, and I wish I could have seen that.
I'll bet Ronbo laughs every time he thinks about it. I know I do.
YO ucna bet I'll be looking for tunnels adn hoels like a man on a mission from now on.
Best part is, I climb with one very large fellow a good bit, and I am not very big. If I could find the right hole, he might actually believe I went though it.
He's also the funniest climber in the souht, so he would appreciate the humor, unless he decided to kick my ass.
But the risk is worth it.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 30, 2006 - 09:07pm PT
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Dirtster, its not as easy as finding a hole (where have I heard THAT before?) It has to be out of sight of the second and then you must find a spy-belay.
Wish I had had a video camera back then.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2006 - 10:05pm PT
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Amen Ron!
I was able to think of ONE tunnel right away,, but it is in plain sight and way too small for the trick to work.
I know another climb with a hole, but anyone can go though it, and again, it can be seen from the second pitch belay.
Hmmm... where is the climb you pulled your trick on? I might have to just use it.
that would be worth the trip!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 30, 2006 - 10:19pm PT
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Some fine examples of gamesmanship. (Gamespersonship?) Or what the psycho-babblers might call passive-aggressive behaviours. Or hazing. Or team building. Or initiations. Or simply practical jokes. Please yourself.
These games are particularly fun with apprentices, as the English call them. I've taught climbing in Norway, and they're quite keen on the rock in pack trick. Especially for the more "challenging" students. About the right level of subtlety for adolescent males.
Tall tales are another good one. It's amazing what some people will believe, and story telling is a big part of our culture anyway. The neat thing is, some of the tall tales are true.
I spent autumn 1976 in the Valley, with some other Canucks, some climbers from the Northwest, Blob Wyvill, and Nick Estcourt, sadly now gone. Nick was then ancient, at least in his late 30s, and had an untidy mop of thinning greyish hair. One day it was his birthday, and he went to the grocery store to buy beer. Someone got in line in front of him, and got the cashier to ID Nick. "Excuse me sir, can I see your ID please. You have to be 21 to buy beer in California." Made his day.
There was once an article in Mountain or Summit or some such, advocating the "simulated leader fall". The idea was that the second should have much the same experience as the leader. The leader would allow enough slack for the second to fall just as far at any point as the leader would have. Not a true simulation - the second would be much less likely to be affected by gear pulling, and of course ultimately would still have a top rope. A "shared" experience, eh? Naturally, they got outraged letters from a few who didn't get the joke.
Anders Ourom
ps I'm a newcomer to these forums. There are frequent references to "trolls". I take it that they're not talking about fishing. Being of Norwegian descent, I have an interest in trolls, who have been sadly misrepresented in literature and film. I have sometimes been called the blue troll, not as far as I know for any deficiency in character or similarity to the caricatures in the media. As some say, troll er folk ogsǻ. Can someone inform me about this?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 30, 2006 - 10:41pm PT
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welcome to super taco Anders!
Troll:
see your first paragraph. essentially someone posting something akin to a total BS question, set craftily to draw a sincere response from you, the unwitting trollee!
it feels bad, real bad to get trolled, and we all secretly email one another laughing hysterically about you if it happens.
if you saw "ghost busters" with bill murray and dan akroyd, and recall getting "slimed" -its much the same and twice as yukky.
thanks for posting up, we need new blood.
cheers,
Tarbousier.
(roy)
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2006 - 02:14am PT
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HEHE, maybe Anders can share some more good trick to play on the second, but Anders, dropping the second more that a foot or so ist VERBOTEN hier, ja?
Everything else that is funny and does not injure is fair play.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 31, 2006 - 03:33am PT
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Yikes! When you say your groups "needs some new blood", does that mean you're climber-vampires? I've never met any, but as the patient said to the naval surgeon, "My, how specialized you doctors are these days".
"Trolling" sounds like what my mother calls trying to get a rise out of someone. So the metaphor is consistent. Not permitted in my family's sandbox, and apparently not in this one either. I'll try to avoid such faux pas and malapropisms.
Anders
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2006 - 04:25am PT
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You got it. Trying to get a rise out of someone.
Hooking a fish.
Reeling them in.
Hooking a big fish is better than hooking a little one.
Trolling is also a fishing term.
Now, Dude, make with the stories about how you played a trick on your second.
Hijacking is also frowned upon, LOL!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 31, 2006 - 12:23pm PT
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A trick that was once played on me. Crossing the Merced in spring, to get to High Pressure. A drought spring (1977), but still involved devious boulder hopping, well upstream. So we set up a tyrolean traverse. That is, we threw a rope to the first across ("DB"), and he set it up. He set it up so that rope stretch ensured everyone got a nice cold dip in the middle of the river. Washing our sorry asses, I believe he described it as. I've always wanted to try this on someone else, but tyrolean traverses aren't so common.
I liked the "rope threaded through impassable chimney" trick.
Anders
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 31, 2006 - 12:41pm PT
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Now perhaps a little hijacking here:
Tony Yaniro once used at a raft to get over to Jaws, things got a bit out of hand and I think that constituted potentially the fine art of screwing the whole team!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2006 - 02:01pm PT
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Anders, OUTSTANDING!!!!!!
I have JUST the place to d othat one too, getting to the pinc creek wall in the BSF, you have t ocross, ahem, pine creek, LOL, and if the water is up, your trick will work great!!!
Tar-baby!!! Not a hijack at all, you must give details!
So far Piton ROn is the big winner though. it wil lbe hard to surpass the head hole.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 31, 2006 - 07:16pm PT
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Yes, Dale thought he was pretty clever. Smirked a little. Though to give him credit, he did the boulder hop, plus led most of the route. We couldn't tighten the rope at our end for some reason, once the first crossed and we found out what was happening. (There were five of us.) I asked Dale about this last year, and he didn't remember anything.
I was once Eric Weinstein's belay slave, in Squamish in the 1970s. Which usually meant belaying him for hours on "mixed" routes - part aid, part free, part pitons, part nuts (hexes, stoppers) - while he cleaned them out and then freed them. He counted on his seconds to provide gear, as he went through it pretty fast. Eric's specialty was to fix the second's gear, to ensure there was protection at key spots when he tried a free ascent. He was good at it - some of my pins still decorate a few routes. He would hammer the crap out of them, despite howls of concern from the belayer, who knew exactly what was going on. When following, you knew not to even bother trying to get them out. And you knew that even though Eric had contributed some gear to the enterprise, it was always yours that got fixed.
A day out with Eric usually resulted in fixing a few pins, plus the odd nut, plus anything we dropped. Not exactly a trick - you knew what you were in for. But it was a costly business - I was 15 then, and my part time job income was about $30/month. At $2/piton, it added up pretty fast.
Anders
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2006 - 07:51pm PT
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fantastic, if somewhat dated for pins, but still, these days you make sure your partner will either contribute pins of his own at a later date, or pay you back, if he decimates your pin rack. at least, taht is how it goes if yo uare on equal or near equal footing.
One way to get 'revenge' for fixed, lost or dropped gear, is to just toss a piece of your partner's gear off at random. of course this must lok like an acident, so you shout a solid curseword adn you'drop' the gear, and act disguested with yoruself and say, "I'm sorry.". UNfortunately the last time I did this, unbelieveably the guy FOUND his stupid cam and biners and sling, much to my disamay!!!
It's not every day you can find a piece dropped from three pitches up past ledges and trees and into brush, but the lucky SOB managed somehow.
And meanwhile, my precious DMM wirelock that he wantonly threw off whitesides with reckless and casual abandon, is still gone. And he refuses to admit he did anything wrong!
I repeat: The second must be screwed.
Anders what a worthy addition you are to ST!
This thread will instruct the future generation in the arcane arts!
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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May 31, 2006 - 07:57pm PT
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This thread will instruct the future generation in methane farts!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 31, 2006 - 08:24pm PT
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Dirt,
I believe you should use the term rope thread as a "head hole" is an aperture found somewhere else entirely (and likely not as wide either...)lol
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2006 - 10:06pm PT
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RONBO!!!! LOL!
Good point, I shall change my thinking on that subject immediately!
Crimpestuous one!!!!! This bread is braining future mentruations for propane tarts!
You know how I love to play with and make up words, oh callipygious ornothoptric penalista!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Flattery will get you nowhere. Nor will philately, perhaps.
Climbing with Eric did get one in the guidebook, plus he had a car and I didn't. He made reparations when he could.
I can't say that I've ever tried any of the tactics so far described in real life, or even thought about it. One or two sound promising, albeit a bit anti-social. It's fun to fantasize, but also worth remembering that seconds may have their own views on this subject. And leaders are much more vulnerable. Hoary maxims about the unity of rope teams also come to mind.
Miscommunication may be another tactic. You're belaying the second, providing some (poor) beta. "Umm, try the jug out to the right. It's sort of hidden, below the chalk mark. I (describe absurd body contorting maneuver) to get past it." (Second dynos for non-existent hold, and pops.) Feigning poor memory (pitch too stressful, too much beer, too many concussions...) provides a handy alibi. Sufficiently advanced age also - presumptive Alzheimer's. Or confusion as to where the second actually is on the pitch, especially if the second is out of sight. "Oh, I thought you were at the (generic feature)." It helps if the second didn't see you climb the part you're describing.
A variant is to describe how others supposedly did the crux sequence: "I was talking with someone in Camp 4, and he/she did (plausible but unworkable move) there." Identifying "someone" as star X will lend this tactic credibility, although if your cover is blown you may be in trouble.
Sadly, this kind of stuff happens every day, in real life - inadvertently. Too many climbing accidents are rooted in poor communication.
Anders
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Phantom Fugitive
Trad climber
Misery
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One of my favorite things to do when a partner can't clean a piece on follow is to tell them to "Leave it! I'll get it on the way down!" They never refuse, of course. The trick is to be sure they are watching as you clean it and don't even so much as stop when you rappell by- cleaning it on the fly with zero effort.
Another trick is the "finishing handcrack". This is very route dependent, as you need a steep finish and large ledge. Build your belay independent of your harness and strip down. Hang your backside over the lip at the right time and yell "There's a good hand jam just over the lip!"
Also- the "underwear on the chickenhead" trick. Prepare ahead of time for this one. A pair of whitey tighties wrapped around a good sized chickenhead, with a quickdraw clipped through the legholes. Even better with a beginner.
The most evil thing to do is not tell them of fixed gear that you have clipped en route, although it can be entertaining. And every once in a while the bugger actually gets the piece out...
"Boy that gold camalot was sure tough to get out". To which you reply "yeah, sorry about that, but I am glad you got it- it is one of my favorite pieces."
PF
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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As a frequent second, I find it very satisfying to top out and announce to the leader that I couldn't get the (insert newest, most expensive piece of gear here) out. Tell them, no worries, we'll get it when we lower. Of course, the route MUST be a walk off.
Another fun trick when the leader can see you is to "fight" to remove another expensive piece of gear. Use the nut tool to bang the sh$t out of it, make many torquing motions, yank, pound, etc. Naturally the piece will easily come out, but the second must "fight" it enough to appear as though they are trashing the gear.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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It is important to keep track of time. Especially beginning on the second pitch. If you neck gets sore from belaying your leader too long...
Topping out. Oops. I forgot to clean the cordellette. Leader must lower you so you can reclimb. If he took really excessive time, shout "rock" (sometimes stoppers fall off and land on the ledge below) and you have to get lowered again. You should get at least 100% as much climbing by time, not distance.
Back on lead...
You pass a very blank runout section of a wall, as you traverse past a large bush on the ledge. After getting well above the bush (it was easy ground) you put in a piece, yard up a bunch of slack and flip it over the bush (since you do not want any rope drag - wink). Best if you partner asks for a tight belay, but if he doesn't it is ok to offer one, before he can think to ask for lots of slack.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2006 - 10:07am PT
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FANTASTIC!!
I did not know some of these.
PF, I have to caution you, making stuff up for hte sake of looking like a master of screwing the second is not kosher, all teh valuable information in this thread MUST be valid and proved by actual field use.
Now tell the truth:
Did you or someone you know ACTUALLY put underwear on a chicken head and clip it?
IF so, I think you are in second palce, still lagging slightly behind Ronbo and his cleverly threaded rope. Bstill, assuming your trick is true, and has actually happened in teh wild, WOW! GOOD JOB!
Crimpestuous one, brillant work! you may hvae to start a counter thread, "Fvcking with the Leader's Head"!!!
Anders, what a great line, it should be recorded again for posterity.
"Climbing with Eric did get one in the guide book, and he had a car and I didn't."-- magnificent! Fine juxatposition of nonsequitorial thinking, and quite funny.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Oh yeah, sure, I'll start a thread here called "Fvcking with the Leader's Head" and get in biiiiiiiigggg trouble just like I did at RC.com.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Crimpie,
you're leaving yourself wide open.
Most supertopans are guys, you know, they like the head before the fvcking.
(Hey, this IS "the fine art of screwing the second".
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2006 - 11:55am PT
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LOL, you two, what am I going to do with you???
Big trouble is relative, Crimperoni.
If Ronbo gets started, LOOK OUT!! Hehehehe!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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whew,
Yer a brave man Ronbo...
(ya know there's that fine line between boldness and insanity)
Hey Crimposter:
I say we stay put and include "the fine art of screwing the leader" right here, as the two concepts are so complementary.
So:
A favorite of mine, as it's been done to me many times and proved quite useful to my matriculation, is the time honored concept of handing the leader a diet rack.
This can serve two purposes: the first is to inculcate the leader with an adaptive and "go for it" skill set. The second is to twist their head and provide those at the belay with a wee bit of entertainment.
There I was at the base of the pea soup crack, voodoo dome, needles. Mike Liechlinski hands me a rack consisting of one of each friend, not including half sizes. Well, jeepers, this thing is a parallel sided number two friend crack. He also tells me it is 10C. More like 11B. I for sure ran out of gear and wound up fishing thin stoppers into an adjacent crack for the remainder of the pitch following my sparsely protected crux section.
Quick on the heels of this taunt we saw the converse: "messing with the belayer", because it took me forever to finish the lead.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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A friend of mine called up to a leader who was really struggling in one spot about 40 feet up.
"Screw this. You're taking too long. I'm out of here. I gotta go to the bathroom."
She had already quietly shifted the belay to the third member of the party.
Especially funny since it was at a heavily populated wall at the Gunks, and the leader looked down to see her leaving, and could not see his belayer close to the wall.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I take it she assumed she would never climb near this leader again.
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Phantom Fugitive
Trad climber
Misery
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dirtineye-
yes, I have done all three of my examples.
Follower had a good sense of humor and wrapped the pro snugly around his helmet.
PF
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2006 - 03:04pm PT
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Author:
Phantom Fugitive
Trad climber
From: Misery
dirtineye-
yes, I have done all three of my examples.
Follower had a good sense of humor and wrapped the pro snugly around his helmet.
PF
LOL, PRICELESS!!!
YOU and Ronbo vie for top honors!!!!!!!!!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2006 - 03:10pm PT
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WEll this is a little of topic, and I do not remember the names right maybe, but it strikes me that a freind of mine who climbed in the late 980's and 90's adn met peopel like paul meil (SP?) and the two swedish farming brothers, (gene someone?) and the guy and his wife who did a lot of routes in the needles SD, (forgot their names) told me a story that miel told him:
Paul was jonesing to climb, but could find no partner. desperately, he grabbed a fellow (non-climber) who was known to do things for beer, and offered a six pack if the guy would hold the rope.
The fine fellow agreed, and the climbing began. things did not go well, and took MUCH longer than the fine fellow intended to wait.
After some discusion, with paul fairly high off the ground, and no end in sight, the fine fellow tied the rope off to a tree and left.
Apologies for third hand info, but do any of you know this story?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Other examples of "art" imitating life, perhaps a bit too closely for comfort.
The "I couldn't hear you" routine.
The "I thought you said X" routine, X being the homonym but antonym of what was actually said. Usually involves providing tight rope when it's not wanted, or the reverse.
These are somewhat environment-dependent, and of course as easily practised by seconds on leaders as the reverse.
The tyrolean traverse trick works better if the brave rock hopping leader ensures that the second(s) are deprived of the equipment to adjust the tension in the system. "I'd better take all the slings/prussiks/carabiners, for anchoring to that tree/boulder/whatever." Or "I'll take the gear, and can hike up and get started while the rest of you are crossing." If the leader can maintain possession of both ends of the rope, that's ideal - rope goes from leader back across river, then back to leader. Much harder to adjust the tension without a rope end. Claim that the doubled rope makes the traverse "safer". The rope stretch physics get a bit more complicated, though.
Many of these tricks can also be played on thirds/fourths/etc - in fact once the second has been victimized, she or he is usually a willing accomplice. If the leader has in the meantime skedaddled up the hill, all the better.
I've heard anecdotes about seconds tying off leaders and leaving, and vice versa, but never from anyone who admitted doing so. More than a little mean. Perhaps they're just cautionary tales?
Anders
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2006 - 05:06pm PT
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Thanks for the important instrucional details there Anders.
The devil IS in the details.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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The following may fit well in this thread. Or somewhere on Super Topo.
Anders
You're a mean one, Mr. Grinch.
You really are a heel.
You're as cuddly as a cactus,
You're as charming as an eel.
Mr. Grinch.
You're a bad banana
With a greasy black peel.
You're a monster, Mr. Grinch.
Your heart's an empty hole.
Your brain is full of spiders,
You've got garlic in your soul.
Mr. Grinch.
I wouldn't touch you, with a
thirty-nine-and-a-half foot pole.
You're a vile one, Mr. Grinch.
You have termites in your smile.
You have all the tender sweetness
Of a seasick crocodile.
Mr. Grinch.
Given the choice between the two of you
I'd take the seasick crocodile.
You're a foul one, Mr. Grinch.
You're a nasty, wasty skunk.
Your heart is full of unwashed socks
Your soul is full of gunk.
Mr. Grinch.
The three words that best describe you,
are, and I quote: "Stink. Stank. Stunk."
You're a rotter, Mr. Grinch.
You're the king of sinful sots.
Your heart's a dead tomato splot
With moldy purple spots,
Mr. Grinch.
Your soul is an appalling dump heap overflowing
with the most disgraceful assortment of deplorable
rubbish imaginable,
Mangled up in tangled up knots.
You nauseate me, Mr. Grinch.
With a nauseaus super-naus.
You're a crooked jerky jockey
And you drive a crooked horse.
Mr. Grinch.
You're a three decker sauerkraut and toadstool
sandwich
With arsenic sauce.
Copyright © 1957, Dr. Seuss (Theodore Geisel)
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Looked high and low over the weekend, hoping to find the article about simulated leader falls. A trip down memory lane - skimming every issue of Mountain from 1971 on. And the indexes. And the Climbing indexes. And google. No luck. Lots of flashbacks, though, and good ideas for future threads.
Wonder if the concept was perhaps a part of a larger satirical article?
Anyway, I thought the article might have some helpful ideas, consistent with the theme of this thread, leading (he he) only to damage to the second's psyche.
Anders
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WBraun
climber
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"The fine art of screwing the second"
Why would someone even have these thoughts?
Only someone who ........ never mind, not even worth the time to say.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Ha ha Werner never climbed with Crimpie!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2006 - 01:41am PT
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He's trying to make a snide point, and missing the humor in the thread.
That's OK though, He can be delusional all he wants to, it's a free country.
HE can also choose to believe idiots and fools or even be one himself.
Course, that's pretty stupid, but it IS a free country.
Guess you never had any fun playing with your partner eh Weenie?
that's boo bad, some people like a joke, and can even appreciate one, guess you don't and can't.
But anyway, you wanna throw in with the wrong crowd, you go right ahead.
To hell with you.
PS you want to come into a thread that is all about funny stuff and be a drag, I will be happy to drag you around a while.
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coldclimb
climber
Wasilla, Alaska
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Hehe, I had a little fun last week. Climbed half dome with a slightly less experienced partner who doesn't know how good he is, so I had him lead all of Snake Dike and I seconded. We finished the climb and got to the endless slabs, so while packing up the climbing gear I handed him back all the stuff I'd cleaned in a couple pitches, and since he'd been leading he readily accepted it. He caught on shortly after, but by then he had all the gear and we'd started up the slabs already.
Life is more fun with less experienced people around. :D
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sometimes, but not ALWAYS.
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nutjob
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Most common second-screwing I've seen is "hey this section is a bit tight, I'm leaving my pack here for you". Then I get to dangle two packs off my harness through the squeeze. Then again, I don't get hurt if I fall.
Other second screwing... not telling them how bad the belay is when you ran out of rope at a bad spot. The look when they reach those #2 opposing horizontal nuts in flaring wet cracks is priceless.
Yet another second-screwing... obstinately staying on lead for too long while partner is devastated by mosquitos, then persisting after dark whilst the ranger warns about locking gates. We had to be escorted out back way (one of several times that season), adding an extra hour to drive, but we got away from the fines because the spanish-speaking ranger was laughing his ass off about my partner being from Boca Raton, FL (Rat Mouth).
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 20, 2006 - 11:11am PT
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HEy these last few are too good to go without a comment, and I'm sure there are still more secrets of second screwing out there!
Don't be shy, tell your tricks!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 25, 2006 - 01:48am PT
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Well, I finally remembered another one. It came to me while out in the mountains today. Completely safe for the second, at least physically, so WB need not tut tut. It's a real sugar sugar, as it were.
It's one applicable in a variety of environments, not just leader - second. But then most of those mentioned are.
It's actually very simple. You know how sometimes when you're day dreaming, belaying while the second struggles up, hanging on the rope, cursing, dropping/leaving/abusing your gear, etc? So often some inane pop tune fills the vacancy, with vacuous ear candy from grade seven sock hops. This happens more when plodding across glaciers, or hiking, but be warned - it can happen while climbing. You simply can't get it out of your head, so to speak. If it happens to you, what you need to do, when the second finally arrives, is tell her/him about this horrible tune that has been filling your head and driving you nuts.
Then tell him/her the name of the tune.
It may be unsporting to tell the second that you've been "hearing" a tune that you actually weren't, though in extreme cases it may be necessary.
Anders
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Anastasia
Trad climber
Near a mountain, CA
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Jun 25, 2006 - 02:29pm PT
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Place less gear so there is a huge pendulum fall at the crux.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 25, 2006 - 03:08pm PT
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Anesthesia, dangerous things are not allowd, you can;t seriously endagner the second.
Anders, Fvcking Brilliant!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 25, 2006 - 04:17pm PT
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Yes, it's all about sharing, isn't it?
Anders
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 25, 2006 - 04:28pm PT
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they are called "ear worms"
I'm not sure they aren't dangerous... imagine having "Ebony and Ivory" spinning round and round in your head...
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Jun 25, 2006 - 04:32pm PT
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Oh, that's awful.
I spent two weeks in Brazil several years ago. and THE ENTIRE time, all I heard in my head was "Her name was Lola, She was a show girl....blah blah blah... Copa, Copacabana.... "
Friggin' maddening!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 25, 2006 - 06:23pm PT
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Acording to a well known (in the biz anyway) Violin maker and repairer, the cure for such tunes is to hum, " Shortnin bread", until the offending tune is gone.
Somehow 'shortnin bread' just does not stick around like those others.
At least that's the theory.
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blackbird
Trad climber
the south
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Jun 25, 2006 - 06:48pm PT
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Anders: I find that your theory works best with those goofy little kid songs (you know, the ones from pre-K/K?) More fun when you actually start singing the things and get them stuck in other's heads (especially if the folks around are a bit on the obnoxious side to begin with. Would that fall into the "screwing the crowd" category?) And of course, it IS all about sharing; one can't be selfish, now can one?!
dirt: from a fiddle players POV, that doesn't work; it's yet one more freakin' tune to run rampant through the brain... Up side is that you can goof with the arpeggations and harmonies, down side is that you forget the arpeggations and harmonies before you get back to the instrument!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 25, 2006 - 06:56pm PT
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Perhaps we need a new thread, for "music" we love to hate? Except that even thinking about it, let alone naming it, inserts it into one's head. The horror! The horror!
They play syrupy classical music at malls, to drive away the unwanted. There may be possibilities...
Anders
Edit: Remember what they did to Noriega in Panama. Deafening heavy metal (is there any other kind?) supposedly drove him to surrender. Though perhaps the guards were just boys from the 'hood, listening to a few tunes.
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blackbird
Trad climber
the south
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Jun 25, 2006 - 07:08pm PT
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Anders, it isn't the music at the malls that drives me away, it's the malls themselves... ugh! cold chills...
Lead on; I'm chock full of ridiculous kid songs...
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 25, 2006 - 07:15pm PT
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I plead the fifth, and refuse to name names. That's one cat that doesn't need to be let out of its bag.
Anders
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blackbird
Trad climber
the south
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Jun 25, 2006 - 08:00pm PT
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I concur!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 26, 2006 - 12:52am PT
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Ed is right. Possibly some tunes would be dangerous - they might drive someone to distraction, or worse, perhaps in an untimely fashion. I guess it depends on the circumstances.
We have strayed into musical tactics, although the end remains the same. Has there ever been a ST thread on the drum bunnies and their anti-social activities? Enough to drive anyone to distraction. Though not likely to be of practical application to seconds in most situations.
Anders
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I've finally found a photo of the "slack Merced tyrolean" trick, from April 1977. It was taken on the return trip, after the soggy followers tightened up the system. On the trip over, the rope was significantly lower.
All good clean fun. So to speak.
Anders
ps Not sure who the traverser is. Maybe Ric LeDuc.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2006 - 08:40am PT
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IF you guys don't get off this music thing, I may find a hosting site and start puting up extreme sappy kiddie tune variations.
And I Can write a tune or a variation that you can't get out of your head without buying the antidote, as one person who shall remain anonymous likes to say.
Now back to screwing the second.
Here is a particulary insidious thing to do:
You are on a new route. You get to a place that you can't possibly climb though. so before you aid though it, you put a little chalk on some insanely unusable 'feature', and then you do NOT tell the second what you did.
When the second gets to this part of the climb, he will spend a while trying to use the impossible 'hold' with chalk on it, andn finally give up, wondering just what sort of god you are to climb on the impossible then requires aid for mere mortals.
When the second finally reaches the belay, complaining about the difficult section, you just casually say, " Oh, I aided that part.".
The only problem with this ploy is htat you need chalk, and I don't have any. I didn't do this trick, it was done to me, hehe.
Maybe I wrote about it before, Oh well, it's worth telling again.
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goatboy smellz
climber
boulder county
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Little Curt, on a day when he was being particularly reckless, was playing in the backyard one morning. Soon, some honeybees started swirling around, annoying little Curt. He began stomping on them in his temper. His father caught him trampling the honeybees, and after a brief moment of thought said, "That's it! No honey for you for one month!"
Later that afternoon, Curt happened upon some butterflies, and soon started catching them and crushing them under his feet. His father again caught him, and after a brief moment of thought, said, "No butter for you for one month!"
Early that evening, Curt's mother was cooking dinner, and got jumpy when cockroaches started scurrying around the kitchen floor.
She began stomping on them one by one until all the cockroaches were dead. Curt's mother looked up to find Curt and his father standing there watching her. To which Curt said,
"Are you going to tell her, daddy, or should I?"
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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In the mid seventies I climbed the Prow with Barb Eastman. We were carrying most of the recommended iron and I started up the third pitch loaded up with angles, big and small. I reached up off the belay and slid a big one snugly into a well worn groove. It was solid enough without hammering that I clipped directly into the eye and stepped gingerly on up. Second verse same as the first all the way up the pitch. I had the iron and left every hand placed piton behind. Once I got to the station and traded signals, I had a chance to look down and take in the situation. I grinned ear to ear and waited for Barb to leave the lower stance and start cleaning. "I ah, wouldn't lean back if I was you" I said innocently enough. Barb instantly got my drift and stayed smooth and flat to the wall while jugging lest the hardware come raining down in quantity and short order. She really did nothing to deserve the strange anxiety and peril but it persisted for the rest of my leads.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Steve- wish we had had the chance to climb together...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Let's make a point of it. Believe me, I have nothing but admiration and respect for what you are about and we might actually get something climbed beyond the drinks, stories and laughter! Look me up.
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Pappy
Trad climber
Atlanta
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Hmmm...Since I have (up to now) assiduously avoided sitting breathlessly in front of the computer hanging on every word of brain dead Left Coast liberals masquerading as climbers just because they have a big ditch to play in (say that without taking a breath; thank you Henry James), I somehow missed the 'Fine Art of Screwing the Second' thread the first time around.
Curt: Bite me. (Hemingwayan concision).
The late Doc Bayne was a master of screwing the second. During the FA of one of the best (tho' off limits) climbs in NC, I followed him after his magnificent lead of P2 to find him slouched at the bottom of the prime pitch of the climb, a layback dihedral with a perfect finger crack, 300' off the deck. He handed me a sling with a few tiny wires and a couple of big friends on it. After a pause I said, 'Where's the rack?'
'If you wanted anything else you should have brought it with you.'
Of course, the only pieces that fit the damn thing were in the belay anchor. I figured he was hoping I would follow form and whimper out, so I pulled the 2 TCU out of the system, 'Oh, here it is,' leaving him with a good nut if you pulled straight down--too bad I'd probably bounce sideways if I actually did fall and hit the belay ledge.
It was great fun sliding the tipped out TCU for 80', especially since as an FA the granite was covered with lichen, but it was worth it when I got to the top and Doc knew he had to follow and the anchor was probably piss all.
Why did Doc think he had to fly.
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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This thread definitely needs rejuvenation...
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 1, 2008 - 08:11am PT
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Pappy is excellent-- if you like a foul mouthed, far right wing libertarian, know-it-all, over educated has been with a bad back and a worse temper.
Best whiner who ever climbed.
But funny.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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How about screwing the leader? BF(before Friends) I did an ascent of Central Pillar with my regular climbing partner who had done it once before without me. On the third pitch I pull the roof and look up at the crack to the belay(this was before there was a route description or topo so it was all unknown territory) and see that it is OW. I don't have any big pro and will have to run it out from the roof to the belay so I ask my partner why he, having done the climb before, didn't bring any big nuts. His response was that when he led the pitch the first time he did the route, his partner hadn't brought any big stuff so he had to run it out therefore I had to do the same. Luckily, the OW is pretty darn easy.
Bruce
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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I can think of a couple routes in Joshua Tree where the second can be well screwed. One, on the backside of the same buttress as Swept Away, is called "Second Thoughts." Another is "I Can't Believe It's a Girdle." Both involve the follower unclipping the pro set for the leader and then doing the crux while exposed to a nasty traversing ripper ending in a granite obstacle should he or she slip.
The trick is to lure someone into this predicament by offerring to lead...
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stnmn
climber
intransit
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Intentionally hurting the second seems a bit far . . .
But a well place toxic gaseous expulsion, as the leader leaves a tight chimney belay, can be quite effective.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 11, 2008 - 03:52pm PT
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I thought it would be nice if this classic thread reappeared, at least briefly. It perhaps deserves a PG rating, but does have some quite witty moments, and is a contribution in a zany sort of way. It seemed like a timely thing to do, plus now it has a round 100 posts.
Re-bump, plus the result of Curt's surgery (reported by justthemaid) suggest that sometimes cantankerousness may be a virtue.
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Barbarian
Trad climber
all bivied up on the ledge
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Nov 11, 2008 - 06:06pm PT
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I led After Six one fine afternoon and belayed at that fine big ledge at the top on pitch 1. My partner Barb seconded. Once she arrived....oh you meant the other way?
We liked my way.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 11, 2008 - 07:43pm PT
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Dirtineye, you forgot about the weight of the rope which the second doesn't have to deal with. Now I suggest that when you get to the crux you.....
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 25, 2009 - 06:56pm PT
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Bump for Curt. And a fine, irascible thread.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Feb 25, 2009 - 07:09pm PT
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IHA9"D
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 28, 2009 - 05:28am PT
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barbarian, your way is only good if you have a partner of the oppisite ses, or you are gay.
Good idea, but sort of missed the point of the thread.
Some things are better left for later, back at the van, anyway.
It would be nice if this thread could continue, but apparently most of the truly great tricks have already been pulled adn described here.
I guess I should mention that putting a bit of chalk on an impossible 'hold'or two and then aiding thought the impossible to free section adn neglecting to tell the second is always good for a laugh, if a bit over used and somewaht of a cliche after all.
still, everyone should do this at least once. I sear the second will never forget it, having been there, done that, and I was the poor second who spent 30 minutes trying to free 5. impossible and wondering just what sort of climbing god I was going up the route behind.
Long live climbers and their particular brand of humor!
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kinnikinik
Trad climber
b.c.c
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Feb 28, 2009 - 11:10am PT
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my fave is to untie when the belayer can't see me and thread the rope through some impossible squeeze and retie.The follower then has to figure that out.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 28, 2009 - 01:29pm PT
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Thank you, thank you, thank you.
(and at the time I'd barely done one wall. Now, one of my partners says I'm full of tricks.
At least I think she said "tricks",..)
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 28, 2009 - 07:41pm PT
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It might be consistent with the spirit of the thread for Ron to ask for royalties from kinnikinnik, for use of his award-winning technique.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Feb 28, 2009 - 07:51pm PT
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I haven't had time to peruse more than the first page but I can see this is an erudite and 'penetrating' exposition. Since I have not seen more than the first page I am wondering if withholding a top rope for whiners on '3rd class' has been examined. In retrospect the time it would have taken to toss the rope down would have more than made up for the verbal and emotional abuse it has cost me in the ensuing 25 years. It probably also was not wise to do so on one's honeymoon.
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reddirt
climber
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Mar 23, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
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this weekend made me think of this thread.
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 23, 2010 - 01:46pm PT
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Red..... pretty cryptic.
I had an Ex-partner who could never figure out how to protect 2nd on long traverses. Three strikes your out.
RIP Dirt.
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MisterE
Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
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Mar 27, 2010 - 05:49pm PT
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One of my favorites is the old "wobbly-stopper-as-the-first-piece" trick. Upon arriving at the belay, the leader pulls up the rope, and as soon as it is tensioned, the piece pops and spins down the rope to give the second a little wake-up call just before climbing. Nothing larger than a #12 stopper or a #5 tri-cam, of course...wouldn't want anyone to get hurt.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Mar 28, 2010 - 02:36am PT
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Dirt-
There is a picture around the 700-800th post I think in the Souther Yosemite thread that depicts the correct method of slingin panties.
Pretty funny stuff here, I always like answering the whimpering calls from above with "Don't you worry about what were doing down here, you got your own shi+ to deal with" Which is usually followed by "GFU" from above.
Sort of reverse
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 18, 2010 - 03:56pm PT
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A time honored tradition!
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Jim E
climber
away
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Aug 24, 2010 - 10:01am PT
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bump
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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I affectionately refer to my second as "the storage unit". If a climb requires big gear on just one pitch, then simply stash the large gear on your storage unit until you arrive at the pitch. Of course, they are also required to carry all the shoes.
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Bobert
Trad climber
boulder, Colorado
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You gotta be careful with those seconds though. Renn Fenton once told me about a time when he recruited an indian in a bar to come belay him on a route he was planning. He took the guy to the climb, showed him how to belay and supplied him with a six pack. Apparently it took longer than planned and the belayer finished the six pack, tied Renn to a post and left.
He ended up talking a tourist into untying the rope and giving him a sort of belay while he finished he pitch.
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The Wedge
Boulder climber
Santa Rosa & Bishop, CA
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At TM half way up the Yawn 5.9 OW. I loving it......the OW ........when suddunly I have to turn around and my approach shoes get wrapped around a piece of gear or the rope . I made the spit decision to unlclip my shoes and let them hang for the second to deal with.
She ended up falling while tring to get everthing organized while she was climbing. Nor did she really endjoy the last bit before the belay, where things get a lttle tighter.
That is my FTS!
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Ol' Skool
Trad climber
Oakhurst, CA
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Bobert- Even a seemingly reliable belay can go south. I was about 2/3 up a short wall in the Valley when we heard shrieking tires and a rolling MGB- after which my cousin jettisoned the belay and ran to help. His "help" on this occasion mainly consisted of stowing a hash pipe and its fuel, ostensibly to spare the inebriated driver from possession charges. When I confronted him with the abandoning the belay, he replied, "I knew you had it under control."
Flattery will get you everywhere.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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I've screwed myself by loosing the v thread tool and ending up downclimbing the whole route, as a second.
I've never done this leave the rack thing, but it sounds like a good idea.
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miwuksurfer
Social climber
Mi-Wuk
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Feb 11, 2012 - 09:59am PT
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This thread should be a chapter in CMac's "How Climb Big Walls" book.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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May 11, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
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One of the best thread titles on the whole site.
It deserves a bump now and then.
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briham89
Trad climber
los gatos. ca
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May 11, 2012 - 10:03pm PT
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FUNNY that mtnyoung bumped this...SINCE HE HUNG HIS GEAR AT THE CRUX TODAY WHEN I WAS FOLLOWING HIM HAHAHAHA
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 11, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
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You got it backwards.
Don't screw the leader!
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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May 11, 2012 - 10:46pm PT
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Screwing the second:
Leader= 6'-4"
Second= 5'-9"
Done!
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enjoimx
Trad climber
Kirkwood, ca
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May 11, 2012 - 11:46pm PT
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No time for screwing the second when your running the PDL on a big wall bra. I guess if your climbing double cross u can screw the second, but when your doing a wall in a push, you gotta send.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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May 12, 2012 - 02:11am PT
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I just chased this Toothpick so I might tell of the time Mathis sh#t in a bucket hold for Vain Diver on some Tuolumne climb. VD was leading another party below Jeff, and plainly there was some animosity, disdain, or just the chance to pull a f*#king good one, so the deed was done.
I like the story. One huge thumb up your crack, Chris. Where in hell are my Jumars, dick-washer?
Better not be in some van down by the Diver River!
edit: The gear was loaned to CVD in 1979. Patience is virtuous, theft is not.
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justin01
Trad climber
sacramento
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May 12, 2012 - 02:19am PT
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I'm 6'4, and I cant tell you how often my 5'5 wife has yelled at me for placing gear out of her reach. " I was gripped baby I swear!"
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MisterE
Social climber
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Sep 29, 2012 - 09:52am PT
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Classic climbing thread bump.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 14, 2013 - 12:34am PT
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SUPERTOPO RULES and Tonto goes to town...
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Bad Climber
climber
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My favorite trad gag:
I was on Eagle Buttress, Right Side, Lover's Leap, a route rarely done now because of raptor closure--bummer. Back then, the birds were on their own and doing fine....
Back to the gag: I rounded a corner up high and climbed out of sight of my belayer. We'd never done the route, so my 2nd had no idea what lay beyond. The climbing was dead easy--huge dikes, a simple run. But HE didn't know that. I started yammering about "Desperate!" "Sketchy!" "Dude, watch me!" All the while I was placing virtually every piece of gear I could wedge in--half-assed or otherwise, maybe ten pieces? I don't recall the exact number. I top out and bring him up. He rounds the dreaded corner and--wham! "You a-hole!!!!" Laughing all the way. A great day on the hill.
BAd
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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Jul 14, 2013 - 11:41pm PT
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Major bump!
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
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Jul 15, 2013 - 12:22am PT
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In GDavis' video, with the belay technique shown, if the leader fell they could both be screwed.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jul 15, 2013 - 12:22am PT
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That is classic, briham!
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jul 15, 2013 - 06:59am PT
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Dirtineye said:
"I am MUCH happier failing on lead than on second LOL! BUT, to be fair, the leader MUST screw the second at every opportunity. He must give bad beta, he must place gear in the hand holds that are critical, sometimes even repreating the phrase," I'm afraid I Fvucked you on that move, sorry", and he must do what he can to allow the second to have as much excitement as the lead offered. The only thing that is off limits is dropping the poor SOB. THAT is just dirty pool, ALTHOUGH, if the second hangs around complaining that a piece is too hard to get out, a little penalty dip IS allowed."
Comment:
A good description of why the New generation always comes out sharper than the generation before. I have seen some old masters in serious trouble when the slave becomes dominant. That's usually more sad than fun.
I remember learning to lead. I was often sent up with too few nuts and friends and even at times some of them the wrong size. Always on easy 4a-5c routes. There's a lot of good learning in that, mostly mental, and it happens when you decide to continue, the run-out way, instead of returning to the ground. Not that I learned too well. If I'm psyched I still bring more gear than any purist would allow.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 15, 2013 - 07:22am PT
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Srewing the 2nd ai't cool. it's simply incompetent.
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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May 12, 2014 - 11:24pm PT
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I can't believe its a girdle.
Also the old "who can get the worst song stuck in the other climbers head." All it takes is whistling a few notes of 'Dancing Queen'.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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May 12, 2014 - 11:56pm PT
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I thought this was actually about screwing the second. Being heterosexual and most my partners being of the same gender, that didn't always work out.
So I'd settle for the second best thing, which is to make sure I got a bomber piece in right after the crux of a traverse. ( as far towards the end of the traverse as possible.)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 13, 2014 - 06:16am PT
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There is a clasic 10a @ cathedral NH called The Book Of Solemitly. It has a devious crux followed by an unprotected traverse to a 5.5 finish. Competent leaders who climb with a single rope protect the crux and then solo the 5.5 after the traverse. Competent leaders who use doubble ropes have it easy. Just don't clip one rope after the traverse and you can place gear on the other rope. Years ago a newlywed couple was on their honymoon. The husband led the Book on a single rope, placed gear after the traverse, screwed his 2nd and she fell shattering her knee.
The climbing rope is a team. The leaders responsibility is for the safty of the team. Anyone who thinks screwing the 2nd is cool is an ahole. Anyone who consistanty screws the 2nd is an incompetent a hole.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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May 13, 2014 - 01:48pm PT
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Someone mentioned this in the thread already I think... but leaving a raunchy smell at the belay just as you cast off, poor bugger tied in short with nowhere to run... and all you can offer is "I'm sorry" in between snickers. Poor le_bruce, lived through the dark days before I discovered what foods my body doesn't handle well. And then BAM! There it is again just as they reach you at the next belay station! Sometimes you have to laugh because the rope you're tied into won't let you slink away in shame.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 13, 2014 - 02:05pm PT
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I've reached an age where I'm pretty much done for the day after screwing the first.
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Dec 22, 2014 - 10:56pm PT
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but leaving a raunchy smell at the belay just as you cast off,
[Click to View YouTube Video]
"Who farts at a beeee-lay? Honestly?"
Nutjob, that's who.
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Dec 22, 2014 - 11:28pm PT
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Lifted off the Southern Yosemite thread:
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Dec 23, 2014 - 05:25am PT
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How about snarging the second?! When I started climbing ice I got a buddies old rack and it had its share of snargs with a couple screws. We would try to out snarg each other by pounding snargs in from pumpy stances or into deepish cleaves. Good times!!
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Dec 23, 2014 - 06:52am PT
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^ classic oldschool screwing..Excellent
A proper screwing of the second does not sacrifice safety.
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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Dec 23, 2014 - 09:21am PT
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My friend Duke would bring wide gear with him on every climb and find a way to leave it for you somehow, sometimes very creatively. 5.3 not wide section??! Better place the #5.
He thought it was the most hilarious thing ever to make his second carry extra weight. If you grumbled about it he got even happier.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Dec 23, 2014 - 03:45pm PT
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I've reached an age where I'm pretty much done for the day after screwing the first.
Now that is FUNNY!
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Dec 23, 2014 - 08:57pm PT
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When I did Tis-sa-ack with Rick Linsky I unintentionally screwed him. It was the second or so pitch, the one that goes horizontal to the right for 50 or 80 feet.
It is largely the same size the whole way, 2"-3" or so. I had to back clean my cams, we didn't have that many and I left gaps of...well let's just say they were more than a guy of 6'4" could reach across.
He had to do a several wild swings and pendy follow maneuvers to get his ass across. It wasn't pretty.
He was pretty pissed off when he got to the belay.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 24, 2014 - 03:02am PT
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The classic totall Ahole move is to place a bomber piece, do the crux move and then run out an easy traverse. I saw a shirtless Ahole do this to his GF a few years ago. She is looking at a 40ft penji and he is up there annoyed at how slow she is following bellowing the classic. "just use your feet, it's not that hard...."
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 24, 2014 - 07:39am PT
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I climbed Sidewinder in J-Tree with Steph Davis back in 2000, her lead. She inched her way out along the foot traverse, finally reached the end and "just had to" stuff a TCU in a crack before pulling the moderate topout moves, leaving me with a bigger pendulum fall following than she would have had leading! It all worked out though and I was glad for the challenge.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 24, 2014 - 08:25am PT
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dee ee, I approve! I did the same to Bruce Hawkins, who is an inch taller than me, on the
traverse high on the University Wall at Squamish, although I didn't back clean. I used a chest
harness so I could clip my daisy to it and get almost horizontal to place the next pin.
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sac
Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
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Jan 15, 2015 - 10:39pm PT
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Thinking this belongs here:
Leader/belayer (TC) in blue lower right. Camera/ cleaning crew above.
This is Tom Evans photo from El Cap Report's site.
Hoping o.k to post here. If not, will delete promptly.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Apr 16, 2019 - 04:35pm PT
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Curt, JB, Juan, bump them all back to the top, they deserve to see this spectacle too
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Apr 16, 2019 - 11:02pm PT
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Well my partner screwed me on "The Curving Vine" traverse pitch on the Diamond and I ended up taking quite a pendulum and ended up in no man's land.
I returned the favor and pushed my only #4 all the way across the "Womb Fight" on Stoned Oven in the Black and he had to second that bastard sans gear at night.
I had no sympathy for him...well maybe just a little ;-)
S...
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