Grand Canyon, AZ: Gondola??

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Festus

Social climber
Enron by the Sea
Jun 11, 2014 - 07:55pm PT
Ugh. Just hit Jon's link and read the article on the gondola project. I don't at all disagree about the dire need to help people in this area, with something besides coal, who have been economically screwed through no fault of their own, but...

R. Lamar Whitmer, managing partner of Confluence Partners, said over the last year and a half he believes opposition to the project from Navajos has lessened. In meetings with Navajo Nation lawyers, Whitmer said the lawyers said the Nation has every right to develop this area.

Whitmer goes on at length to talk about what the Navajo need and deserve, almost as if he's one of them and has lived in the area, but nothing could be further from the truth. Please Google him.

Confluence Partners will no doubt make a killing if this happens, but will it really do much to help the locals? I seriously doubt it, check the history and economic benefit of most indian casinos, the actual tribe (minus a few well paid off higher-ups) gets crumbs, most might get a crappy low wage job at best, and the developers and outside management team rake it in. The obscene trashing of a beautiful (sacred to some) and special place is actually a secondary issue to me. The fact that Confluence Partners is using the tribe as a pawn to cash in on this trashing, that's far and away the most obscene and unforgivable aspect of this whole sorry tale.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2014 - 09:30pm PT
Thanks for all the comments, I'm pleased to see that people are discussing wild places and their need for preservation for future generations. I'm so thankful that our forefathers had the insight to protect some places for us to explore. Wilderness is a rapidly diminishing commodity and it vanishing at a frightening pace. I feel sorry for unborn youth who will not get the opportunity to experience adventure as we have and I apologize for my role in the destruction of the unknown.

Festus your writings bring up a number of pertinent topics I look to address when work is not so pressing. I appreciate your perspective on the importance of wild areas. Keep it coming our way.

From my limited experience with some traditional Dine men, I would caution us to be leery when we place our Western value system on a people who have live in an entirely different culture. We might consider that some of our neighbors do not worship money or status on FB. I understand the "need for jobs" in an "impoverished culture", but sometimes question if a job as a janitor wiping up the sh#t of fat Americans holds any more value then tending to a garden and raising sheep. I realize that a dozen or so folks stand to gain a ton of money if this project sees completion, but I tend to side with the hundreds of thousands of folks who will experience an incredibly wild place in its natural condition.


Long live the wilderness,
Albert
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jun 14, 2014 - 08:15pm PT
The Colorado / Little Colorado is a special place. The fact that only a few rafters and fewer hikers visit it is what keeps it serene and special. A ridiculous tram, museum, and such would be a travesty.

Scott Patterson

Mountain climber
Craig
Jun 15, 2014 - 02:01pm PT
Seems like a pipe dream to me, the Navajo Nation boundary only goes to the edge of the canyon. The asinine Skywalk got built because the Havasupia Nation boundary includes actual canyon.

Actually both the Navajos and NPS have claim to the east side of Marble Canyon. Even the NPS says you have to get a Navajo permit to hike or backpack there (I don't think you need one to get to the confluence from the Beamer Trail though, but you do need a Navajo permit to hike or backpack on any NPS lands north of there; everything on the east side of the River). (PS, the Skywalk is actually on the Hualapai reservation rather than the Havasupai Reservation).

Canyon de Chelly is also a national monument, but you need an Native American guide to get to any of the hikes there other than a short trail (Navajos even live within the monument). A Native American guide is also required Navajo National Monument, though that one is low cost or free.

NPS lands within the reservation are not managed in the same way as other NPS lands.

So far the NPS seems to be remaining silent on the gondola proposal. I’ve been wondering if there is a conflict.

Hey, we took all of their land [...]
Ya.. the white man paves, pollutes and kills 99 percent of the north American ecosystem..But the Indian wants to build a Gondola and suddenly the Indian is desecrating holy places...
Bahahahaha
Stupid white idiots..
Edit: white men steam rolling the natives into this?
Like I said...greedy stupid white man...
Either way I stand with the native people....maybe its Donald Trump - I'll be glad to help scalp him and what ever the hell that thing in his head is...

For the record, the Navajos are relatively new comers to the region. They only arrived in the Southwest region (from Canada) less than 150-200 years before the Spanish. They didn’t arrive to area around Grand Canyon until ca. 1700 AD.

The Navajos actually forcefully took the land from the Pueblo, Utes/Paiutes, and Comanche through warfare and raids.

In that sense, what they did isn't that different from what the white man did other than there was 150-200 years between the two.

That doesn't somehow justify what the white man did, but white men weren't the only ones displacing former natives.

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 17, 2014 - 09:52pm PT
https://rrfw.org/sites/default/files/documents/SecretaryJewell7-15-2014.pdf

The link above is an excellent letter sent to the Secretary of the Interior by the River Runner For Wilderness. This letter discusses the 1975 Grand Canyon Enlargement Act and how it may stop any development of the Escalade project to build a gondola to the confluence of the Colorado and Little Colorado. I read somewhere else that the government considers the reservation boundary to be 1/4 from the river, the Navajo Nation considers the boundary to be mean high mark of the river.
cali kat

climber
CA
Jul 19, 2014 - 10:57am PT
Has anyone assessed the impact of a tourist development on the rivers themselves? In the midst of this drought, are they going to be sucking away water for development? How much more crap will be in the water when the tourons have easy access to the river?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 19, 2014 - 09:09pm PT
Has anyone assessed the impact of a tourist development on the rivers themselves? In the midst of this drought,

I do not believe the tribe has water rights in the Colorado River. I have heard that the Hualapia tribe (further west) looked at the possibility of building a golf course on their reservation, but were denied water from the river. All the water for the National Park (north and south rim) comes from Roaring springs and is pumped up to the rims.

19 billion gallons of water flow through the canyon everyday (when the river is flowing at 30k cf/sec), almost all of it spoken for before it reaches Mexico.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2014 - 06:52am PT
There is a great new video out about the confluence tram. Not sure how to embed it, but it is on the front page:


http://savetheconfluence.com
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Dec 14, 2014 - 12:04pm PT
What's the diff between this and the hut hotels the Euro's put all over the Alps?

Would an occasional development on the edge of US wilderness keep more tourists off the trails in deeper wilderness?

I've not been to this area so have no right to judge.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2014 - 03:31pm PT
[quote] What's the diff between this and the hut hotels the Euro's put all over the Alps?/quote]


The concept of "Wilderness" as an area worth preserving in and of itself is a uniquely American foresight. As slothful and ugly as we are as a culture, we were likely the first country in the world to understand that keeping some wild areas in their natural condition is a good idea. Perhaps it is because our ancestors looked at Europe and saw how degraded and tame their mountains have become?

This gondola idea is a foul proposition. We should do what we can to prolong this event from occurring. The short term benefits of a few dozen janitorial and service type jobs for some locals is not really all that great trade off.

the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2015 - 08:20pm PT
Clip from an article from Yahoo News:

"It almost sounds like a joke — a mall in the Grand Canyon? But a company called Developers Confluence Partners has proposed building a $1 billion entertainment complex on the east rim of the Grand Canyon that has created an uproar.

Called the Grand Canyon Escalade, the developers refer to the project as a “tourism destination development” that will include shopping, an IMAX theater, multiple hotels, and an RV park. It’s all centered around a Gondola Tramway, designed to take travelers “from the rim of the Grand Canyon to an elevated Riverwalk on the Canyon floor.”

An action group called Sum Of Us is having none of it and has started an online petition to fight the development, which has reached 90,000 supporters — 10,000 people away from its 100,000 goal. According to the petition, the tram is being built in a “sacred place for the Navajo.“

Click the link for more "details":

http://www.yahoo.com/travel/a-mall-in-the-grand-canyon-activists-trying-to-116042178052.html
Jerry Dodrill

climber
Sebastopol
May 12, 2015 - 11:17pm PT
I just spent 10 days on the river and camped one night at the confluence to experience and photograph this place. I'd say its pretty sacred. What do you think?





Sign the petition.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
May 13, 2015 - 01:41pm PT
Thanks for the photos!

I just got to visit that spot (again) too on a river trip. No camping allowed for 5 miles on river left, at least for river runners. I'd say it's just sacred enough for us to visit, but too sacred for those other tourists :-)
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2015 - 02:08pm PT
Good news on the Navajo Nation:

http://savetheconfluence.com/news/press-statement-by-begaye-nez-administration-on-grand-canyon-escalade/

May 13, 2015
Newly sworn-in Navajo Nation President Russell Begaye has reasserted his opposition to the Grand Canyon Escalade.

Here is his formal statement, released today:

“... As for the project, Grand Canyon Escalade, this Administration has already stated it does not support the Grand Canyon Escalade project and that position has not changed, as Mr. Begaye has stated it is not in the best interest of the Navajo Nation and the Navajo people."


Long live wild places.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
May 13, 2015 - 02:18pm PT
Thanks albatross! That's great news, as long as they still let us in. Those tourons need to know that there are people like us visiting the wild places in order for them not to lose their wild sense of adventure.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 13, 2015 - 02:23pm PT
Very odd, because yesterday he was standing with Shelley in support of the project.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2015 - 02:57pm PT
That is interesting Jon Beck. I have heard from a trusted source that there is a shocking level of corruption in the Navajo government. I'm sure this battle will wage for years to come, given the general sleaziness of most politicians and the importance of this area.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2015 - 08:23pm PT

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/who-can-save-the-grand-canyon-180954329/?no-ist=&page=1


"Who Can Save the Grand Canyon"

"Then the girls performed a hoop dance, symbolic of the forces of nature. Afterward, Yellowhorse sat near the rim and addressed us, her companions on this journey, in a soft monologue. “I want to share a dream I had last week,” she said. “I dreamed about buildings here, all over. Tepees, even though we never lived in tepees. Garish signs. ‘Buy your Indian moccasins here’—except they were made in Taiwan. In my dream, they were shutting down the tram. They were tearing down the buildings. Finally they listened to us. But I didn’t know how to feel.”

She took a deep breath, starting to choke up. “They come in with their empty promises, dividing the people. It hurts me very much. If they come in and build their walls, they’ll tear out the heart of mother earth.”

“The Holy Beings will be distracted by the lights and the noise. They won’t be able to hear our prayers.”

Yellowhorse gestured at her granddaughters, sitting in mute attention. “I want them to see this place just as their ancestors did. The same rocks, the same water. And I want their grandchildren to see it, too. To know the Holy Beings are here.”


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 13, 2015 - 09:12pm PT
That is interesting Jon Beck. I have heard from a trusted source that there is a shocking level of corruption in the Navajo government. I'm sure this battle will wage for years to come, given the general sleaziness of most politicians and the importance of this area.

my folks(now diseased) retired to the NE corner of AZ. Now my dad ran the organized crime unit for the LA DA's office as his last position before retiring.

I remember one conversation where he was comparing the political organization of the local Apache and Navaho tribes. Lot's of parallels with the mafia. Struggle between family clans for control with all the corruption, nepotism and treachery, just there isn't enough water available usually for cement shoes. It's much more rare that it devolves into bloodshed, but it has happened on a few occasions. Kinda mafia lite.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2016 - 02:19pm PT
There is renewed interest in developing the Gondola in the news lately.

It's probably not a wise idea to develop this wild, remote area into a tourist mall and destination. Even if we don't fully yet appreciate a place in it's natural state, we as a community should consider keeping some places untrammeled. The confluence of these two mighty rivers is one place in which the works of man should remain minimal.

Learn more about this issue:

http://savetheconfluence.com/news/proposed-grand-canyon-escalade-bill-starts-move/


"Just say, NO" to the gondola proposal in the Grand Canyon.
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