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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Feb 23, 2014 - 10:08pm PT
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I think that the gondola and resort is a good idea.
If you want support for wilderness and senic areas you need to get people there enmasse. To cut out all but a select few with the ability to hike in is to eventually loose all support.
Yose Valley is a tourist area.
The Grand Canyon of the Tuoloumne is wild. Very few go there.
While the proposed resort will spoil part of the grand canyon for a few, it will benefit millions in many ways, while still leaving most of the canyon wild.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2014 - 10:46pm PT
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This is already a protected area in which there are many ways to enjoy for the near 5 million persons a year who visit. I used to believe the way to protect wild places was to get people into them but no longer subscribe to this tenant.
The thought of some fat, ugly American reading Rock & Ice magazine while taking a gondola to the bottom of the Grand Canyon sickens me a bit.
Let's keep a few corners of this world wild.
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Festus
Mountain climber
Enron by the Sea
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Feb 24, 2014 - 12:50am PT
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Spider,
We do get people to the Grand Canyon by the millions, and it's impossible to argue otherwise. Helicopter and fixed-wing scenic flyovers, motorized rafts, burro transport, an expansive network of paved roads and walkways to countless spectacular overlooks and amazing views, all connected now (on the south rim, anyway) by an efficient bus system. Yes, Yos Valley is a tourist area, and so is most of the south rim of Grand Canyon and a chunk of the north rim. And I'm okay with all of it (minus the outboard motors on rafts perhaps), for the reason you state. But we've already compromised some of the wild places of these parks (to say the least) and made the places accessible to ALL. The result? For millions and millions every year, Grand Canyon was an incredible, unforgettable must-see, and millions upon millions more have a trip to Grand Canyon (as it is now) high on their bucket lists. Ditto for Yosemite, of course. Clearly we've done enough to allow anyone and everyone to experience these places for themselves. And I think most everyone on this forum can and does live with the compromises made to allow that kind of access, whether we're talking about GC or Yos. And those outside this forum, and/or those unable or unwilling to climb or hike? They can't wait for their first visit or their next visit, and with very, very few exceptions they all love these places, feel connected to them, and would (and do) oppose development beyond already-developed areas. If this wasn't true there'd be a hotel atop El Cap with a glass elevator up the Nose providing access from the valley.
To argue that we're excluding people from, and thus eroding support for, the remaining wilderness portions of Grand Canyon is as ridiculous as believing a gondola from rim to river at the confluence delivers them that wilderness. Which, by the way, is exactly like saying a glass elevator up the Nose would deliver them a climbing experience.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Feb 24, 2014 - 01:08pm PT
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Spider, you can't be serious? The confluence is about as wild as you can get, camping is not even allowed at the actual confluence. Now we want wheelchair access? Seems like a pipe dream to me, the Navajo Nation boundary only goes to the edge of the canyon. The asinine Skywalk got built because the Havasupia Nation boundary includes actual canyon.
I am all for access but there needs to be limits. Any area that has access to the multitudes is going to get ruined, it really will. I hiked out of the Grand Canyon last week and the picture posted below was less than half a mile from the trail-head at the popular Grandview tourist viewpoint. We do not need Jaquelyn Marshall in the inner gorge, keep her at the top.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2014 - 10:14pm PT
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Thanks for the replies and interest. Times have changed in the last 50 years, we no longer have to get people into wilderness to have them appreciate wild places. Those days are gone with the internet. Here's a follow up article on the last post as to what may happen if we let wilderness become accessible to all:
North Carolina Man Reportedly Thought it Would Be "Cool" To Carve His Name On Rock Art Panel At Glen Canyon NRA
http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2011/01/north-carolina-man-reportedly-thought-it-would-be-cool-carve-his-name-rock-art-panel-glen-canyon-nra7507
In a great case for justice the perpetrator was caught later the same day.
It is my belief that we should work to preserve the few remaining wild places left on this planet.
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Sagebrusher
Sport climber
Iowa
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Feb 25, 2014 - 05:55pm PT
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Hopefully, many were enticed to report that! WTF!!!
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Feb 25, 2014 - 06:05pm PT
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"In a great case for justice the perpetrator was caught later the same day."
I hope they cut off all his fuking fingers! Graffiti makes me so mad....
Erik
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2014 - 06:56pm PT
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Quite true, DMT.
Yet for several decades following the flooding of Glen Canyon the environmental movement urged how important it was to get people into wild places in order that they can understand and protect these areas. Those days are long gone.
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Feb 25, 2014 - 07:06pm PT
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I don't know about how much of an economic benefit it would be, or to how many. I'd like to find out how that new "skywalk" attraction is doing.
I'm living out here and I drive back and forth to Flagstaff all the time. I see a lot of signs opposing the development between Cameron and Tuba City. I can't recall seeing any in favor. The Navajo are by no means of one mind on this issue.
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Festus
Mountain climber
Enron by the Sea
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Feb 25, 2014 - 08:49pm PT
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Yet for several decades following the flooding of Glen Canyon the environmental movement urged how important it was to get people into wild places in order that they can understand and protect these areas. Those days are long gone.
Albatross,
I know what you mean, and I'm with you, but in truth those days never existed. What the conservation/environmental
movement(s) actually proved (and not just the Brower-era version) was that it's really not at all about getting people into the wilderness it's simply about educating them on the beauty and value of that wilderness. That, in the end, is the only way to save it. Yes, Muir and Brower and countless others of their stature encouraged people to come see and experience the wild places for themselves. Few did, few ever have. Put on a backpack and pull one high pass into the Sierra Nevada (staying off the relative highways like Whitney, Muir, etc.) and how many people do you see? If you want the answer to be none it's not hard to do, yet few do it.
The great success of our National Park system is education. Say what you will about crowds in Yosemite Valley or on the south rim, and their impact, but when people leave those full-access-for-all portals most leave with an appreciation of the entire park. They leave as supporters of preserving the entire park as it is, and often other wild places as well. They're with us even if they never hoist a backpack and head off-road.
It's always been about education and it always will be. Which is what you're doing in this thread. Thank you!
So take your kids back-packing and have them invite along a friend who has never done it. Then do up a trip photo book for the kid and I guarantee you that kid will proudly show it to everyone they know. You'll also win over the parents and who knows how many others, and move the pro-wilderness needle just a bit more to the right. You can be a one-man version of what the old Sierra Club did with their coffee table books back in Brower's time.
Oh, yeah, and next time you're at a National Park, tip your ranger!
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Sagebrusher
Sport climber
Iowa
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Feb 26, 2014 - 05:09pm PT
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A great website about the trails of the Grand Canyon... Zoomed in to the junction of the Tanner, Beamer, and Escalante route.. http://www.bobspixels.com/kaibab.org/usgs_map.php?map=dv&seg=bb Personally, I have only been on the Bright Angel and Grandview trails. Sure would like to try some of the more hardcore routes!
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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http://savetheconfluence.com/ben-shelly-escalade-wont-happen-because-of-lawsuits/
Navajo President Ben Shelly said a proposed resort on the Grand Canyon east rim “is not going to happen” Thursday night at a fund-raiser event in Tuba City.
Shelly, who has not officially announced a re-election bid for Navajo president, had met with people during a $30- per- plate dinner at the Hogan Restaurant. The president spoke about the Grand Canyon Escalade, which was part of three topics he mentioned.
Shelly, who spoke in the Navajo Language, said the Escalade won’t happen because it will launch lawsuits. The president did not say who would sue or state the reasons for the lawsuits.
Though the President’s office has not issued an official statement about Thursday’s development, he privately encouraged Escalade opponents to work on preserving the area. He also said to mark off areas the group did not want developed.
Revisit Save the Confluence later for witness accounts, a recording of Shelly’s talk and photos.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2014 - 12:19am PT
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Grand Bump.
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Festus
Social climber
Enron by the Sea
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$76 to sashay out on that stupid-a$$ skywalk?! Who pays that unless they're at gunpoint? Anyone who's spent any time at all hiking to and around north and south rim overlooks (easily accessible by car or bus I must add) has stood atop more exposed perches with far better canyon views for free. Economically speaking--my revulsion for the skywalk completely aside--I don't get it! No wonder the gondola idea isn't taking wing (knock wood).
http://www.reviewjournal.com/business/legal-battle-surrounding-grand-canyon-skywalk-still-flares
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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$76 to sashay out on that stupid-a$$ skywalk
hahaha, I hate to admit it but me and my little boy were in the first group to go on the Skywalk when they opened to the public. My son was only 4 so he did not get charged. It was an interesting day, but you are right, the skywalk is a waste of money. It is not over the river and it was almost more interesting on the cliffs next to the skywalk. No railings anywhere, classic rez tourist development.
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Festus
Social climber
Enron by the Sea
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Jon, you are an honest man to admit it! And I bet that whole day is already a darn good story that will only get better with age...and possibly an after-hours seismic event that drops the skywalk into the void.
And the only thing good about the skywalk is that it isn't over the river.
Hey, how old is your little boy now? Old enough for some good hiking trips, I'm guessing.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 11, 2014 - 03:43pm PT
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My boy is 11, will take his first backpacking trip this summer, it will not be into the Grand Canyon! Sierra trout fishing trip is planned, any suggestions on an easy hike in with good fishing?
Latest news on the Escalade project is full speed ahead, although it seems I read somewhere that money is not available. This article is loaded with information about the plan to run a 1.6 mile long aerial gondola line down to the confluence of the Colorado and Little Colorado rivers. I have mixed feelings on it, that area of the rez is impoverished even by rez standards. Tourism is much preferred over coal. They would only use 3 acres at the river, but is is an extremely remote area, I am troubled by that aspect of it.
http://www.grandcanyonnews.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=10888
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Festus
Social climber
Enron by the Sea
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Jun 11, 2014 - 06:29pm PT
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Jon,
My boys are 12 and 16 now, and I've been taking them on backpack trips to the Sierras each summer for the last three years. Last summer we did a trip up to Big Pine Lakes, set up our camp between lakes 1 and 2 and day-hiked and fished all over the place from there. You can't go wrong doing a trip up there! It's a perfect backpack trip for younger kids, or anyone for that matter, about five miles to the first lake with an elevation gain of about 2,500 feet. That puts you within easy dayhike range of the glacier, a half dozen other lakes and, though we didn't climb, well you know what you'll be looking up at. Go in August and you won't have any mosquito problems at all, especially this year. Fishing was great, kids had a blast and so did the adults. It's where I take everyone who hasn't done much or any backpacking, an incredible first trip.
All the trips I've done to date with the kids have been relatively short with big pay-offs (good fishing, great views, etc.). My oldest is more than ready for Grand Canyon now, but I haven't done that with them yet, hoping to next year.
I erred on the side of making sure they didn't have a death march experience that would turn them off from the whole idea, and they're hooked now. The first trip we did was to Mosquito Lakes, from Mineral King, in August, also about five miles and a few thousand feet of elevation. Didn't see a soul there the entire time. This summer we're hiking into Cottonwood Lakes, and plan to hike up Mt. Langley one of the days. If you know the dates you'd like to go, get online now and get yourself a permit. You'll see people on the Big Pine Lakes trip, but it's really easy to find a remote campsite where you'll see no one unless you want to, simply by hiking for ten minutes away from the main trail. That whole Big Pine Lakes basin is truly one of the world's great hikes, or series of hikes. I'll put up some pictures here in a bit. You can't go wrong there.
Steve
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Festus
Social climber
Enron by the Sea
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Jun 11, 2014 - 06:40pm PT
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Okay, Jon, before I hit your GC gondola link and get depressed, the photos that follow are my best argument against anything like the gondola in any place that spectacular and relatively wild that remains relatively untouched. Have a great trip wherever you go with your son...and if it's Cottonwood Lakes maybe we'll see you!
Mosquito Lakes, 2011. It's a great first backpack trip for kids but if they get car sick the last 20 miles to the trailhead is one seriously winding single lane road. Other than that it's all good!
Last summer, Big Pine Lakes, one of the planet's finest backpack trips...and I think the straightest road to a high trailhead in all the Sierra. No car sickness worries at all here!
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Jun 11, 2014 - 07:23pm PT
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So, the gondola goes from the rim to the bottom, but it doesn't come back up?
Could be a problem there.
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