Grand Canyon, AZ: Gondola??

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the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 6, 2012 - 04:33pm PT
The Navajo Nation is proposing a massive tourist development which includes a Gondola to the confluence of the Colorado and LIttle Colorado Rivers. If you have ever been there you know (hopefully) it is a special place. The development is in the midst of the main canyon and within spitting distance of some very sacred sites for some cultures.

Here is some info from the website:

"Grand Canyon Escalade’s main draw would be the “Escalade” Gondola Tramway, carrying tourists from the Grand Canyon’s South Rim to the Canyon floor. Once there, visitors could walk along a 1,400-foot elevated river walk to the confluence, eat at a restaurant, or visit an amphitheater and terraced grass seating area overlooking the Colorado River. The development would also include a Navajo cultural center and retail and art galleries. Publicity materials claim the project will yield 2,000 jobs at full build-out and generate $50 to $95 million annually for the Navajo Nation. Navajo grassroots activists and neighbors of the project say local attitudes about it are sharply divided, creating tension in the community and pitting neighbors against one another. Several members of one grassroots group formed to oppose Escalade marched last week from the confluence to Navajo governmental offices in Window Rock, to make their opposition known." [Around a 100 mile hike]


Here is a link to a site with more info:

http://savetheconfluence.com/opposition-continues-for-the-grand-canyon-escalade/#more-997


I have no affiliation with this group, just wanted to raise some awareness.

Long live wild places.
Albert Newman
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 6, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
That sounds swell! Are there plans for a dam near the confluence to facilitate ADA swimming? Golly, I sure hope so.
labrat

Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
Dec 6, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
Wow!
No thank you
dave Sparrows

Trad climber
AZ
Dec 6, 2012 - 05:26pm PT
The way I see it, we took all of their land at one point, so let them do what they want with what little they have left. It will probably be a nice cash influx for the Hualapai people. I mean look what we (the white man) are doing at the Arizona Snow Bowl/ Agassiz Peak; a sacred sight of the Navajo and Hopi people that we now spread human waste (Grey water) on to make snow. I know two wrongs do not make a right, but I say just leave them alone, it is their land to do what they please with it.

EDIT: Misunderstanding- I thought it was the Hualapai not the Navajo with the gondola proposal.
adrian korosec

climber
Tucson
Dec 6, 2012 - 05:38pm PT
Sounds like a great idea! If we could establish a way to pay to climb towers legally too it would be great. The Navajo Nation has every right increase revenue via natural resources provided it's done in a responsible, thought out manner.

I don't get the hatred of making certain wild places more accessible to the masses who otherwise could not enjoy them.

A gondola to the bottom of the Grand Canyon sounds great. A nice restaurant and gift shop at the bottom with mountain hut type lodging would be in order as well.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 6, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
I do not believe that the confluence is on tribal land so NPS approval would be required, ain't gonna happen.

Very true Dave, the Navajo pushed out other cultures when they "invaded" North America, ironically around the same time Columbus "discovered" America

TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Dec 6, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
Will they serve drinks?
adrian korosec

climber
Tucson
Dec 6, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
here here!
crunch

Social climber
CO
Dec 6, 2012 - 06:47pm PT
The way I see it, we took all of their land at one point, so let them do what they want with what little they have left. It will probably be a nice cash influx for the Hualapai people. I mean look what we (the white man) are doing at the Arizona Snow Bowl/ Agassiz Peak; a sacred sight of the Navajo and Hopi people that we now spread human waste (Grey water) on to make snow. I know two wrongs do not make a right, but I say just leave them alone, it is their land to do what they please with it.

hey, david sparrows, it does not work that way. This is anglo developers, and their deep pockets, steamrolling over the Navajos, just like it usually is. The Fulcrum Group LLC, along with Confluence Partners LLC are pushing to develop this Gondola project. Lamar Whitmer is one of the Fulcrum Group. He was treasurer of Snowbowl a few years ago. He lives in Scottsdale, as does his friend Todd Borowsky. Todd's father, Eric Borowsky, owns the Snowbowl resort.

Same people, same developers, same money. They don't give a sh!t about anything except their profits. They have pockets deep enough to ensure that there's some buy in by powerful tribal members (like President Shelly) to keep this thing moving, just as there was back when Peabody pushed for mining coal.

Here:

http://navajotimes.com/news/2012/0412/041712whit.php



10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 6, 2012 - 07:11pm PT
hey, david sparrows, it does not work that way. This is anglo developers, and their deep pockets, steamrolling over the Navajos, just like it usually is.

I read an article about this a few weeks ago. Crunch is correct. It's the white man pushing it, but he has got the Navajo to buy into it because he is promising jobs. The Hopi are strictly opposed to the idea.
bigwall shitter

Social climber
the wild west
Dec 6, 2012 - 07:33pm PT
that confluence is one of the coolest places around, swimming in the warm aquamarine blue waters of the Little C wearing yer birthday suit in full view of the old folks from illinois bumbling down the boardwalk.

Go ahead and build!
Gene

climber
Dec 6, 2012 - 07:46pm PT
Maybe they could put in an oyster farm as well.

g
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Dec 6, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
^^^
Actually, it was the Hopi who were peaceful and worked with the early settlers in the region. The Navajo resisted, were forcibly re-located, but eventually signed a peace treaty and were allowed to return.

But the Hopi, who cooperated with USA's "manifest destiny" and didn't fight, never got a treaty, and ever since have seen their tribal lands diminish (and bit by bit, it still continues to diminish).

See http://www.viewzone.com/day6.html for a map.

The current reality is that the Navajo are politically organised and comprise a sizeable voting population in the four corners region. Both tribes are wonderful people, but the Navajo ended up with the better end of white man's deal, to be certain.

Not sure how I feel about the tramway. It's a beautiful area, and increased access will expose many to the beauty of the Southwest. I've spent a lot of time in that area, it's tough to get down there, and I'd be hard pressed to say that only the rugged individual can visit. Of course there will be impact from a tramway, but in this day and age, economic benefit that's dependent on natural environmental beauty, rather than involving its destruction, might be the better way forward in general. There are those who still would be calling for more dams on the Colorado, most likely, if it weren't for the significant commercialisation of the river running industry.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2012 - 09:20pm PT
Thank you for all of the thoughtful replies.

I like the idea of exposing "wild places" (like Yosemite, Grand Canyon, Grand Tetons, Zion National Parks, et. al.) to as many persons as possible. Hopefully those persons, like most all of us, will realize the value of wilderness in an ever increasingly complex world. Even if we don't fully understand the reasons yet, it seems to be of interest to keep some places in their natural state.

In regards to persons with special needs in experiencing The Canyon, a lot of options come to mind: IMAX at Tusayan, helicopter and fixed wing air tours, donkey rides to the bottom and river trips. Plus the thirty miles of pavement on the South Rim. I think that sh1t is even on Google earth now. Lots of ways to experience the place for people of all interests and abilities.

I like to think this proposal would somehow help the peoples of the Navajo Nation and the rest of the world. General observations and experience prove otherwise. I would prefer this idea be scrapped.

crusher: AZ Snowbowl is set to start snowmaking next week. Like the rest of the country, we have had one of the driest, warmest Fall seasons (and years) on record. Thanks for the moneygrubbers link...

Jeremy: we are still playing in the sand and there is room; you and SB and JM know where...

Keep it wild.
Albert

crunch

Social climber
CO
Dec 16, 2012 - 11:53am PT
I like to think this proposal would somehow help the peoples of the Navajo Nation and the rest of the world. General observations and experience prove otherwise.

Yes, indeed. It would be nice to be more positive and proactive instead of negative.

The magazine High Country News has a nice article about this. Link here, but it appears only subscribers can get the full article online:

http://www.hcn.org/issues/44.21/will-navajos-approve-a-grand-canyon-megadevelopment

Anyway, interesting interviews. Those living nearby were mostly opposed; those living farther away, and thus who would be less impacted, were not so opposed.

What is a more appropriate type of development? One Navajo rancher, who lived near to the proposed Gondola and was opposed to the scheme, suggested that a model was perhaps Antelope Canyon. Here, the Navajo Nation earns steady income for guiding and allowing access to a world-famous photographer's destination, but without the heavy-handed industrial disruption of this proposed Gondola scheme.

I've driven past this area, know nothing about it really, but would welcome the chance to actually visit and explore. So many folks visit the nearby and much more famous Grand Canyon South Rim resort, it might be good to open up more terrain for hiking and sightseeing. So I wonder, maybe building a few trails and promoting this same Grand Canyon confluence area as a place of scenic beauty--which it evidently is--might bring visitors and yield income, jobs and money, without any need for the controversy and disruption of the Gondola proposal?



Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 16, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
Man always kills the thing he loves.

If it doesn't take much effort to see natural beauty then the experience has less value.
In highly delicate environments the wise conservation practice is to keep a high value to the experience by maintaining low traffic.

That this is another anglo attempt to pimp natural beauty slams the door on it.
(not that the Indians were all that good at conservation, or, for that matter, climbers)
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Dec 16, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
This is anglo developers, and their deep pockets, steamrolling over the Navajos, just like it usually is.

Please notice that the Navajo are by no means unified on this. This is indeed business as usual. Mining companies use the same tactics. It is easy to tempt an impoverished rural community with promises of jobs and business opportunities. The reality never seems to live up to the initial promises, and the real profits, if any, go elsewhere.

This is a wilderness, I certainly hope such a development doesn't get approved for this area. It would be a tragic loss. And, many Navajo agree with me on this . . .
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
crunch wrote: "So I wonder, maybe building a few trails and promoting this same Grand Canyon confluence area as a place of scenic beauty--which it evidently is--might bring visitors and yield income, jobs and money, without any need for the controversy and disruption of the Gondola proposal?"

Excellent ideas. I can think of off hand at least a dozen scrambling routes to the bottom of the LCR, including Moody "trail", Salt Trail, and Blue Springs trail, all highly recommended if you like adventure hiking. The Little Colorado River gorge (LCR) is an incredible place it would be nice if the Navajo Nation encouraged a little more low-impact activities such as hiking. There may even be some established climbing routes in the canyon. On a side note, base jumpers have really been drawn to the area. A couple years ago several did the jump, were unable to find the hike out and had to be rescued by DPS or NPS. Just last month a well known European base jumper leaped to his death near Salt Trail.

One major problem I believe some of the traditional locals have is that the Gondola would end within a mile or two of the "sipapu". From what I understand this is one of the most sacred sites in all their culture. I think it is good that people experience wild places, but there is a sickening image in my mind of the ugly fat American strolling over to the sipapu, munching on a Big Mac, drinking Starbucks.

The western part of the Navajo Nation is "the forgotten area" from what my Navajo friends tell me. Many, many hogans (homes) still have no electricity or running water in this area. A massive development could bring a number of low-paying service industry type jobs to the locals. I'm guessing that much of the profits would go into the pockets of a few individuals.

As I understand this proposal, the Gondola would be easily visible from the South Rim (which sees something like 5 million visitors a year). I am all about helping impoverished persons improve their way of life, yet the thought of this development sends shivers down my spine. I feel it is wise to keep certain places wild, without the intrusion of man and our developments.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Dec 16, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
Crunch, you really should take a weekend to explore around there. There's a couple ways down from rim to river, I'm certain that some moab-based adventurers will have some beta, or just drive over to Cameron and head off exploring the off-road routes along the Little Colorado rim and find one of the routes yourself (that's how I first made my way down there--thinking like, and following in the footsteps of the ancient ones). It's a most magic spot in the southwest.

EDIT--another tip has to do with a town named after a musical instrument as a starting point...
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 16, 2012 - 03:17pm PT
If our country would spend a little more time trying to help create economic opportunities for people who choose to continue living on tribal lands, perhaps they wouldn't continue to propose development ideas that many of us find objectionable.
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