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Messages 41 - 60 of total 196 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
jstan

climber
Dec 5, 2012 - 12:47am PT
I'll ask my question another way.

How long does stuff have to be left on the rock before it is considered to be abandoned?

This is an old legal question. It is a real question.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
SLO, Ca
Dec 5, 2012 - 12:47am PT
graniteclimber, have you ever put up or repeated a big route? If so, plz provide citations.
MisterE

Social climber
Dec 5, 2012 - 12:48am PT
I'll ask my question another way.

How long does stuff have to be left on the rock before it is considered to be abandoned?

This is an old legal question. It is a real question.

To obfuscate further, depends on who left it?
jstan

climber
Dec 5, 2012 - 12:51am PT
If it depends upon "who left it" we have the most serious problem of all.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Dec 5, 2012 - 12:53am PT
That's it in short form John.
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Dec 5, 2012 - 12:56am PT
where along the way did it become acceptable to steal climbing gear ?

But that's exactly the issue.

Did you not see "Dances with Wolves" ???

John Dunbar: [at the celebration of the buffalo feast, noticing a big Sioux man has his Lieutenant's hat] That's my hat... that's my hat!
Big Warrior: [in Lakota, as all becomes quiet in the tent] I found it on the prarie. It's mine.
Wind In His Hair: [stands up, in Lakota] The hat belongs to Lieutenant.
Big Warrior: He left it on the prarie. He didn't want it.

The concept of "stealing" depends on the definition of "ownership".

Possession is nine-tenths of the law.

Sorry for the broken record, but it seems that message has not been received: At least where I'm from, if you leave your sh#t lying around, it is fair game. This would especially be true in a public arena such as a National Park...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 5, 2012 - 12:56am PT
I was just laughing about this statement. It didn't sound like you were upset about leaving fixed gear. It sounded like you were looking for revenge for WOS. Which just sounded nuts to me.

If you are pissed about leaving fixed ropes, then say so, but dragging old sh#t into it that has been worked out is pathetic.

I thought Steve's post was funny because he's calling someone a thief for removing his trash.

Why would I be upset about him leaving fixed gear. He did, but he came to clean it up. That's good.

What's funny is him calling someone a thief for cleaning up after him.

What's more funny is that he is calling someone a thief for taking out his trash when he himself sh#t on someone else's new gear, knowing that it was not abandoned, for the sole purpose of harrassing them and causing emotional distress.

He apologized, but only after 30 years, and only because he was being publicly "outed."

A late, forced apology is better then nothing, but not much better.

Instead of offering a $100 reward for the information so that he can have his Good Samaritan "arrested and prosecuted" he should be looking for the guy so that he can offer him a $100 cash reward for hauling out his trash for him.
chez

Social climber
chicago ill
Dec 5, 2012 - 12:56am PT
It appears to me that climbing permits are just around the corner, climber self conduct or policing is just not possible anymore. Too mainstream.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 5, 2012 - 01:00am PT
If it depends upon "who left it" we have the most serious problem of all.

Exactly. Steve and his crowd are the same crowd that sh#t all over the Wings of Steel team, both figuratively and literally.

If you come in from outside the Valley and left stiff old ropes on a route for a month or more they would strip them without even thinking about it.

But if it's one of their crowd, that is different.

Even after over 30 years after Wings of Steel, they have learned nothing.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Dec 5, 2012 - 01:01am PT
Classic "Graniteclimber" basement internetard understanding of how people really behave. It's not surprising if the facts involve an individual brought up on text messaging as a feeble way to communicate.
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Dec 5, 2012 - 01:04am PT
It appears to me that climbing permits are just around the corner, climber self conduct or policing is just not possible anymore. Too mainstream.

"Anymore" ???

If the discussions on this forum (and the history therein) are any evidence, then self-policing hasn't been possible in over 40 years.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
SLO, Ca
Dec 5, 2012 - 01:05am PT
Truth is it does matter "who" left gear and how it's left. Welcome to humanity.
shipoopoi

Big Wall climber
oakland
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2012 - 01:06am PT
I guess it could have been a cleaning up project, if they had just jugged one more line and cleaned them all, that actually would have been better. Now there's this fixed rope hundreds of feet off the deck, that i have no way to clean up till spring...when i will clean it up. for the record, i don't believe in leaving fixed lines on any routes for long, but i don't consider a month a long time...especially since i spent a day fixing the lines straight down from the 5th pitch so they would not be on the start of the popular dawn wall start, or any other route for that matter, except the desparate, and possibly unrepeated(except by dave caunt himself) rock neurotic.

of course, i have been guilty of fixing lines on routes before, and longer than a month on el nino and lurking fear, and to those that had to climb by my lines, i am truly sorry. it seems that in this day, if one can play the free climbing card, such as a season on freerider or the dawn wall project, then that is accecptable as long as the lines come down at the end of the season, and everything is done to keep the lines off of the actual climbing. certainly, nobody was lining up to do the real nose, and even if there had been, my lines were off the route, i took care of that.
everybody here knows i'm not perfect, i'm not saying i am. it still does not give somebody the right to essentially rob me. ss
jstan

climber
Dec 5, 2012 - 01:09am PT
Since we cannot know who left something then everything must always be left. Are we happy with that?

In that case we don't agree with Jesse's work to flush the sh#t out at the bivys on el Cap. That's a worst case but so be it. Worst cases are where arguments, like this one, always end up.

I do have a question for Jim.

Suppose the person had refused to give you the gear you claimed was yours. If you had assaulted that person, since it was only a claim that it was your gear, you would have been charged with assault and battery in another person's residence. Even were your legal defense ultimately successful, your legal fees would have far exceeded the value of your gear. From simply practical considerations, would you not agree your action was ill-advised?
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Dec 5, 2012 - 01:13am PT
That's too empirical John. This is a situation of a known person with known fixed ropes meant to be removed.

Hyenas take a public sh#t just like everyone else...
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Dec 5, 2012 - 01:15am PT
JStan, tell me if I'm interpreting you correctly...

Sounds like you're saying:

 It's often impossible to know who left something.
 We must treat things left by unknown parties as "abandoned"
 We must then on average, because on average we cannot tell who left something, also generalize that anything left is "abandoned".
surfstar

climber
Santa Barbara, CA
Dec 5, 2012 - 01:23am PT
What about perma-draws?



;)
MisterE

Social climber
Dec 5, 2012 - 01:33am PT
This is a situation of a known person with known fixed ropes meant to be removed

This begs the question that there is such a disconnect of the community that the perps are unaware of the above statement.

I understand the disappointment of trying to do the right thing and the time involved, only to find one has been jammed.
T H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Dec 5, 2012 - 01:36am PT
I would assume there are still valley locals (like textbook localism). No matter how big the cred/ celebrity of somebody from Oakland or elsewhere, it still doesn't amount to nothing in Yosemite.
jstan

climber
Dec 5, 2012 - 01:39am PT
Stzzo:
Abandonment dates to old English law and it phrases the question this way. Property can be assumed to have been abandoned if one can see that that was the "intention." An engine or a washing machine beside the road is an easy example. Beyond that I can say only that the amount of money expended over what is to be done with the remains of the Titanic has probably exceeded the original cost of building the Titanic.

That is why I phrased my approach in terms of abandoned climbing gear posing a denial of the rights possessed by the aggrieved party. How the aggrieved party establishes its right is up to them. They owe no debt to the party leaving the gear. None.

Personally I think treating everything as booty is ill-advised from a number of standpoints. Would you lead on a rope you found lying at the bottom of a cliff?

I wouldn't, but what any one person chooses is not a good basis for resolving a communal problem.

We have a good illustration of this right here in this thread.

I will go on.

All too often we respond out of our reptile brains to minor problems. Steve's ropes are not the functional equivalent of facing an enraged grizzly while holding only a pen knife. Sometimes I have trouble understanding why mature and very intelligent people sink this low - so regularly.
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