First Ascents: to share or not to share

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limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 27, 2012 - 07:51pm PT
That is the question.

What do you do, or would you do when you climb one? Keep it a secret? Make a billboard, facebook, banner, website and guidebook?

I've only been part of a few, so I'm no expert. But since I love the idea of standing (or hanging) where nobody else ever ever has in the history of earth I hope to be part of more.

Here are some pros and cons off the top o' me head while thinking about what to do in the future:

Con
-more people might come to the area
-haters gonna hate/argue/judge
-less unknowns for others
-someone thinks they're doing an FA when they're not (maybe a pro, but I don't want to be that someone)
-someone comes later and claims the FA

Pro
-extreme fame, glory, and recognition
-sharing climbs with other climbers
-naming things is fun
-groupies
-keeping people up to date on the area (I like to know what's going on)

drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Nov 27, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
Tweet for sure.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 27, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
I reported one once so others would not die

Ballistic wall
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Nov 27, 2012 - 08:31pm PT
Totally situational like everything else about climbing.

If I stumble into a new area with potential, I like to keep it on the low low among a few friends so we get to pick the cherries. Once that is done the word goes out so folks can enjoy the place. I mean after all if I did the legwork to find the place, fair is fair, right?

On the other hand if you find and do a good new route in an established area there is not much point to keeping it a secret, right? It's just another resource for the community.

Not part of your question, but one I think about a lot, is why do FA's which are not high quality? I see this in a lot of places and it makes me wonder. Like food and wine and ale, quality should come before quantity.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
i WASNT ON THE INTERNET during bush years...
Nov 27, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
if its at some already established area,, certainly. but if its at some new crag your developing, the normal greedy approach is to pick all the plums first,, then let it out of the bag. this is basic stuff.;-)
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Nov 27, 2012 - 08:42pm PT
What kind of first ascents are you referring to? There are multitudinous types of climbing on a huge sliding scale of magnitude.

Who cares about some "first ascents" on some random chosspile somewhere? Probably only the "first" person to climb them.

If you are climbing a "first ascent" with the sole motivation being to report your effort, you are doing it for the wrong reason.

Humans are so narcissistic.
ec

climber
ca
Nov 27, 2012 - 09:21pm PT
Greg?
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Nov 27, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
extreme fame, glory, and recognition, groupies

Damn, that Fortress thing did not bring us any of that. We gotta find better rocks! just kidding.


Personally, I would report if I think it is a worthy climb. Would report if I had a lot of fun on the climb/liked my partners/had a story to share. Actually same as any TR I would want to post. If I did not have fun on some climb/hated my partners, than I don't even want to talk about it.


So, ummmm..like...you think Homer's Nose will bring us groupies? When is we going? ;)
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Nov 27, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
Greg who?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Nov 27, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
I've done it both ways, but looking back I should have reported more of them. They end up with bolts next to perfect cracks.

All of which nobody really cares about anymore, including me.
MisterE

Social climber
Nov 27, 2012 - 10:38pm PT
Kris nailed it.

If you do FA's for yourself and your "group", don't report.

If you do FA's so other people will enjoy them, then share after you have FA'd all the good lines.
ec

climber
ca
Nov 27, 2012 - 10:54pm PT
Kalimon = Greg = Narcissus

 ec
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Nov 27, 2012 - 10:59pm PT
Cons of sharing:

Access across private property could be lost with more people.

Trail braiding and erosion if an area becomes popular with no established trail.

A climber with good experience and vision should be able to bolt adjacent routes so that they use the features and natural lines without crowding one another. Too many first ascensionists create disparate and often conflicting visions and lines.

It's really nice, especially if you live most of your life in an urban area to have the crag and the whole scene all to yourself and your partner. Even one other party changes the experience completely.

Trash, dog problems, kids, toilet paper and associated waste, gear ripped off from stashes, broken holds, greasy holds, trampled vegetation, noise, waiting to get on classic routes or problems, general distraction and commotion, thoughtless bolting, cigarette smokers/butts, competition/rush for first ascents of classics.


Pros for sharing:

Hot young chicks in tight skimpy clothing - that's about it : )





MisterE

Social climber
Nov 27, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
Cons of sharing:

Access across private property could be lost with more people.

Trail braiding and erosion if an area becomes popular with no established trail.

A climber with good experience and vision should be able to bolt adjacent routes so that they use the features and natural lines without crowding one another. Too many first ascensionists create disparate and often conflicting visions and lines.

It's really nice, especially if you live most of your life in an urban area to have the crag and the whole scene all to yourself and your partner. Even one other party changes the experience completely.

Trash, dog problems, kids, toilet paper and associated waste, gear ripped off from stashes, broken holds, greasy holds, trampled vegetation, noise, waiting to get on classic routes or problems, general distraction and commotion, thoughtless bolting, cigarette smokers/butts, competition/rush for first ascents of classics.


Pros for sharing:

Hot young chicks in tight skimpy clothing - that's about it : )

^^Where's the love of sharing the fruits of your efforts, Warbler?

Are you being sarcastic cuz I am not seeing much love for the community in that last post.
bergbryce

Mountain climber
California
Nov 27, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
I don't want anyone on the Peak of Many Couloirs, it's my friends and I's little secret, so it was never reported.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 27, 2012 - 11:06pm PT
is that a euphemism ?

Hot young chicks in tight skimpy clothing - that's about it : )

^^Where's the love of sharing the fruits of your efforts, Kevin?


to share or not to share?

depends on the area.. like...

Yosemite Valley (eventually share)
Tuolumne Meadows (eventually share)
Hetch Hetchy (never share)

certainly there are great routes around to do, and one wonders if the talk gets too loose on an area that others will come and do the lines you're interested in...

and it is nice that there aren't that many people around, but look at Parkline Slab development in the past 5 years which has exploded with lots of people doing FAs... and not that happy about squeeze jobs and some of the overbolting... the word got out there and lots of routes went up...

good or bad?

there are lots of other areas in the Valley which are developed, but not well known yet, and there are places being developed... still a lot of potential....

tell or not tell?

I've never ever been able to answer that question.
WBraun

climber
Nov 27, 2012 - 11:08pm PT
Report all your secrets to Fox News.

Tell them everything ......
T H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Nov 27, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
share = spray
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Nov 27, 2012 - 11:27pm PT
It was somewhat tongue in cheek, Eric

I do share and have shared lots and lots of routes and areas I've developed, after the work's done, and I'm climbing elsewhere.

I've learned over 40 years of doing new routes that ... well, put it this way - the only first ascent I did at El Cajon Mountain here in SD, and for that matter, the only route I've done there, I named The More the Messier.

Most folks who know San Diego climbing lore will understand...

I climb with only one partner, we have more or less the same goals and vision for the area, and it's all under wraps for reasons cited above. Rarely, like two or three times a year I'll go climbing on established routes with friends, and that's fun, but...

"The climbing community" can create lots of problems at unclimbed areas, from what I've experienced - my buzz has been blown way more than once in many ways by other climbers at the crag, especially where new routes are concerned. I never find myself wishing there were more people when I'm out.

That said, I'm happy to share the routes and all the work I've done to put them up - after they're ready for public enjoyment. I'm even occasionally around when it happens...

MisterE

Social climber
Nov 27, 2012 - 11:48pm PT
I know you are, just checking in.

In Arizona, there is so much, I just got used to sharing the wealth...it also helps clean up the routes with more travel.

Different rock, different attitude. I have an idea:

Choss is for sharing

clean rock is for the in-crowd.

How does that sound?
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Nov 27, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
That makes sense...

I know you climb around Sedona, and the Satellite images of that place boggle the mind.

San Diego, as far as multi pitch new climbing goes, has limited potential.
Heyzeus

climber
Hollywood,Ca
Nov 28, 2012 - 12:15am PT
I agree with Warbler 100%, sarcastic or not.I enjoy a certain experience of peacefulness when climbing that becomes scarce once it's on the meet-up.com group climbing radar. So I do not think that "choss vs. clean rock" should be the qualifier. For me, it's about how many people live nearby vs. amount of local rock. LA and SD has a lot of people and not many options.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
Nov 28, 2012 - 12:17am PT
nice boulders!


Vitaly, long live the fortress! I finally figured out what you were referencing at Pinns. I'm a little slow.


To Limping... only share with close friends. Eventually it will get out, might as well enjoy it as much as you can til then.

Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Nov 28, 2012 - 12:19am PT

In Arizona, there is so much, I just got used to sharing the wealth...it also helps clean up the routes with more travel.

When I lived there, I felt like AZ was the land of the secret crag! There are so many cool crags there though. For cragging in remote and beautiful hangs, AZ is pretty bitchin'. I'm getting a little wistful here. I'll have to suck on the poor substitute of a nipple we have here in the Sierra Nevada ;).

Oh yeah, and I used to hang with Manny. How many FAs do you think that guy has in AZ?
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Nov 28, 2012 - 12:24am PT
That Arizona climbing thread's one of my favorites.

It can be deeply rewarding to witness other climbers, especially complete strangers, getting stoked on routes or an area you've discovered and developed.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Nov 28, 2012 - 12:31am PT
That Arizona climbing thread's one of my favorites.

Yeah, buddy! A dazzling array of stone and settings there. Sandstone, dacite, andesite, basalt, granite, limestone, mud.... Mountain top, aspen forest, river canyon, savannah, desert.... It's an overlooked climbing state for sure.
skywalker

climber
Nov 28, 2012 - 12:42am PT
Many years ago I lived in this place that so far has seen little spotlight despite some of the best damn bouldering for many, many miles. We made up names for areas and routes and it was fun. But it was never "published". I'm sure all those that went there and still go believe that they are doing an FA and are all stoked but aren't doing an FA. And I'm sure all my FA's aren't as well. But its fun thinking that way but ya know if it stays that way then there are so many FA's for the future.

My point is to what end is the reporting? Boulders get washed by nature and who knows if its been done before and that is the magic of a place like that.

If its a 40ft 10a rap bolted route who cares?

If its a 4000ft epic 20 day adventure; I'm all for stories and pictures!

Do it for the right reason and understand that all the "gardening" done in the precess may not be the best place for your name, or your FA.

My 2 cents

S...
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Nov 28, 2012 - 12:47am PT
Does anyone remember the article Doug Robinson wrote way back in the early 70s or maybe even 1970 in which he reasoned that people should just keep their first ascents to themselves and end the reporting rampage that was going on? The idea, I recall, was to bring climbing motivations back to some level of purity. I often think of that when people wonder about the big historical gap in activity during the 70's. Maybe somebody could dig up the article. It may have been CLIMBING magazine that it was in.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Nov 28, 2012 - 12:58am PT
Squeeze jobs, variations, move left then right then left....70m for this pitch, wire brush for that pitch.

I can't tell you where it is, cuz it's sooooooo classic!

Hahahahhah nothin left but choss.

Nowadays, the "Line" is only seen through the eye of the beholder.

FA'ist are twisted for sure.

skywalker

climber
Nov 28, 2012 - 01:05am PT
M.N.

I don't know of the article but that was what I was getting at. For us, boulders were all we really had but the nature of the environment and rock and the sheer quantity of problems (very unique rock and thousands!) who knew if it had been done. More often you'd never see a soul all day yet there were many climbers but you looked at the rock for awhile and a line suddenly appeared in your head and you'd try for minutes, hours, days, etc and if you got it...well its probably an FA. But a year later your chaulk is gone and its another FA ready to be had!

S...
limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2012 - 02:06am PT
It kind of bums me out that people are doing FAs and not saying anything. I like the idea of being somewhere that nobody else has, and those people make it so you can never be sure.

I guess what you don't know can't hurt you. Unless you don't know you have malaria.

ec

climber
ca
Nov 28, 2012 - 02:32am PT
limpingcrab,

Hey, it's always been that way, anyway and still is. You just never know who's been there; just like being the first time for everyone. I did several 'natural' line FA's in Domeland Wilderness BITD on the stealth and then, 15 years later, I read about them in the 'new' guidebook done by someone else, 15 years after the fact. It was a good laugh, actually...they still don't know...

 ec
Nate D

climber
San Francisco
Nov 28, 2012 - 02:45am PT
It kind of bums me out that people are doing FAs and not saying anything. I like the idea of being somewhere that nobody else has, and those people make it so you can never be sure.

Ah, but there is still some thrill in the hunt. Sometimes you can be sure, when you stumble across evidence. A tiny bit of old tat knotted on the ground, or a freshly drilled bolt. I've explored several completely undocumented crags, small to quite large, and came across new bolts. In almost all cases, with a bit of research or a friendly note I was able to find out the culprits. Then I was in on the secret and sometimes became part of the game.

Although public announcements may not be made, subtle inquiries via good old word of mouth can be revealing.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Nov 28, 2012 - 02:57am PT
It seems like In some areas, like our rainforest. FAs require serious work, scrubbing moss, peeling carpets, digging dirt & roots out of cracks. Even -gasp- cutting trees are often required to clean a route. If the FAist doesn't share with enough ppl & there's no traffic it's going turn green and the forest will reclaim. There's secret & low key areas for sure but usually after a season or 2 of plum picking & solitude the cat seems to get outta the bag which is a good thing if these routes are to stand the test of time. I'm sure things were different 35 years ago when the trees were a lot smaller & the moss thinner.

Edited-

In a place with rock that is naturally cleaner I could see things staying on the down low for a lot longer, especially places like California or Utah that have waaaaaaayy higher climber populations. Makes sense, if you want to climb new lines you gotta go look for them. Exploring is part of climbing, if your waiting for someone to print you out the instructions, it's time to get out there & see what's on the other side of the hill. I like Mucci's post:


Nowadays, the "Line" is only seen through the eye of the beholder.

FA'ist are twisted for sure.

Myself if I find something I'll try & climb as much as I can before letting any of the mutants know. Try & convince the wife to carry some pads or give me a catch :-) Once your satisfied it's nice to share the love.

Sick boulders above.
limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2012 - 03:02am PT
How about I never say anything but everyone else tells me what they do? :)


ec- I figured you'd been out there.



People have good points on both sides. I just posted this to see what people think...
ec

climber
ca
Nov 28, 2012 - 03:15am PT
How about I never say anything but everyone else tells me what they do? :)

I used this tactic for years...


 ec
splitter

Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Nov 28, 2012 - 04:14am PT
I climbed some with Dave Anderson (RIP) from Seattle. I think it was the Spring of '74 we did a hand full of FA in the Valley in the 5.10+/5.11 range (2-3+ pitches). I do recall discussing different possibilities of names for a few of them. At the time there was a notebook kept in c4 with all the new routes listed there as they got put up. It was a sort of strange time, and Dave (and a few of NW climbers in general) felt as though there was to much of a focus put on "getting your name in the guidebook" so they decided to not bother. I watched the guide closely, and everyone of the routes were eventually done by various climbers. A couple 'plumb' routes. The only name I can recall being associated with any of them was a Rick Sylvester FA! A fun route involving a roof that took a considerable amount of time to clean all the dirt out of. But there were many others. If I had it to do over with, I would have just went with one of the dumb names we first came up with and posted it myself, instead of bickering over it (probably initially had something to do with it).

And I started bouldering out at Mt. Woodson in '71 and spent a lot of time seeking out new routes, primarily cracks in the 5.10-5.11 range, from '71-'74! i left San Diego for the Valley and eastside in the Spring of '74 and when I returned to bouldering in dago around the mid 80's these routes we did all had new names and FA claims. Personally, I couldn't give a sh#t less. And the names peeps came up with are a lot better, anyway.

Three of the very popular offwidths (now) I/we named Power Shortage, Power Outage, and Energy Crisis, because the nation was experiencing one around that time!

1,000 years from now it won't mean shit! So get over it!
Josh Nash

Social climber
riverbank ca
Nov 28, 2012 - 05:07am PT
if I've learned anything from here is that you keep it a secret until someone else tries to claim it.......
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Nov 28, 2012 - 09:29am PT
This place was my little secret from 35 yrs ago (77/78). The place has seen alot of development since and I only recently became aware of thru
the Lassen/Plumas County thread below. Paul Bernard contacted me about his upcoming guidebook and we set history straight before the book was published. So since the time I climbed there the name of the crag was changed, names of my routes were changed by people thinking they had the FA's. Many routes now have bolted pro and belay/rap stations when my 1st ascents were done clean on lead or top roped.









Tom's Thumb,
so thats what they call it now!

I don't want to rain on anyones FA claims here, but I climbed many routes
there between 1976-78.

I was attending Lassen college at the time and met Joe Fitschen who said we should check the place out. When we (myself,Dane Scott, Paul Robbie) climbed there we didn't see any evidence of previous climbing activity.
and surely there were no bolts on it at the time for pro.

Since the place didn't have a name BITD we dubbed it "Cannabis Crags" and established many free routes on the west face, some on top rope others on
lead. We also put up a short aid route on the east side, a overhanging thin crack off the deck.

I kept a notebook of routes and dates but it has long since been lost.
I do still have some old faded photos of the rock and us climbing there.
I will have to take them to a store to be scanned to disc before I post them up.

Just sayin.
Tad

Cannabis Crags 77
west face Toms Thumb
west face Toms Thumb
Credit: T Hocking
Toms Thumb 2012
Tad and Mitch at Toms Thumb <br/>
10/19/12
Tad and Mitch at Toms Thumb
10/19/12
Credit: T Hocking
The Alpine

climber
Nov 28, 2012 - 10:44am PT
Its all ego driven. Ego to share, and ego to keep secret.

Whatever you do, make sure you at least document them in some form for yourself, lest ye forget. Then on your deathbed you can pass on the knowledge.

Borut

climber
french, spider, cheater
Nov 28, 2012 - 10:52am PT
FAs: my sole reason for joining internet! LOL
Scott Thelen

Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
Nov 28, 2012 - 11:05am PT
I just keep them to myself.

Then smile when they get repeated.

The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Nov 28, 2012 - 11:32am PT
It's all driven by the love of adventure, exploration, discovery, creativity, nature, climbing - other than that it's purely driven by ego.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Nov 28, 2012 - 11:35am PT
It's all driven by the love of adventure, exploration, discovery, creativity, nature, climbing - other than that it's purely driven by ego.


The coy c*#k teasing consistently displayed here proves that it's certainly a major factor ;).

It's all good though, nobody has copyrighted adventure yet so far as I can tell.

can't say

Social climber
Pasadena CA
Nov 28, 2012 - 11:39am PT
One of my most pleasant memories from my time in N. County SD, was walking point (Brushhook operator) with the Warbler was when we were opening Rainbow.

The man likes to explore.
limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
Hey dingus, where's Sleeping Beauty?


hooblie

climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
Nov 28, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
the gift of passage across the passive surface of our planet ...
a string of moments marked with sufficient indelible beauty

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
i WASNT ON THE INTERNET during bush years...
Nov 28, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
FAs are mostly done by those with a strong desire of the unknown and untouched. I enjoyed those far better than doing an already established route. Starting climbing when i did- there were TONS of undone things around- so it was just the normal that we were on something new most of the time. After years of compiling climbs and info i got the "bug" to do a guide. This was not out of "ego" but rather a thank you to folks like Eric Beck, Gene Drake, Max Jones, Rick Sumner, Bill Todd, Greg Dexter and John Taylor for THEIR guides to the area that opened up ,many adventures for our group. I had been asked a hunert times to do something for Woodfords as well .

I considered it an honor to catalog climbs by the pioneers of Tahoe- and to give the info out of these areas never before covered seemed a very good gesture to the climbing community. 2.5 years of nothing but hiking , taking pics, making drawings and interviewing climbers. In short, a shyt load of work with very little or NO payback if counting the actual overhead costs out of pocket for such an effort.

One more thing to consider, is that in this day and age of bolting gone mad, if one doenst document a route, yur liable to see it receive some retro stuff - bolts -pins etc etc. Ive already seen that on some of my old routes in Woodfords and other locales.

adventurous one

Trad climber
Truckee Ca.
Nov 28, 2012 - 02:17pm PT
This place was my little secret from 35 yrs ago (77/78). The place has seen alot of development since and I only recently became aware of thru
the Lassen/Plumas County thread below. Paul Bernard contacted me about his upcoming guidebook and we set history straight before the book was published. So since the time I climbed there the name of the crag was changed, names of my routes were changed by people thinking they had the FA's. Many routes now have bolted pro and belay/rap stations when my 1st ascents were done clean on lead or top roped.

That's a shame and the best reason, by far, to report fa trad routes done in good style by yourself or those that you have knowledge of.

If you do a route (or have knowledge of one) done in respectable trad style, reporting it so that future generations will, hopefully, respect it and not retro bolt your accomplishment is a service to future climbers/naturalists imo. Look at all the retro bolted and "squeeze" routes we already have in the US of previously undocumented routes done bitd, not to mention the ruining of so many crags in Europe, where some climbers believe it ok to even bolt perfect cracks at many crags. It only takes one (weak minded, oblivious 'first ascentionist" who believes he has the "right") person believing they are doing the Fa to ruin the mental adventure and pro finding fun/challange of a route by retro bolting it. And, it's just interesting to know who/how a route was done "bitd". In the future "today" will be "back in the day" and a part of climbing history.

Personally, my foremost motivation in writing a guidebook (which revealed hundreds of previously obscure, undocumented routes done bitd) was to preserve these traditionally established routes (some of which were starting to be retro bolted and un-necessary hardware at belays installed) in their current un-bolted state for future generations and to discourage retro bolting.


Publisizing a 60' 5.14 sport route has a whole different set of motivations though.................. and publisizing a small crag near an urban area with a sizable number of climbers nearby may have other consequences to consider and differs from areas (the majority) with vast climbing opportunities.



RyanD

climber
Squamish
Nov 28, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
. 2.5 years of nothing but hiking , taking pics, making drawings and interviewing climbers. In short, a shyt load of work with very little or NO payback if counting the actual overhead costs out of pocket for such an effort.

Ron's right, the ppl out there developing & organizing guides etc. are doing it out of a passion usually, although like anything in life- the ego can always be incorporated if you aren't paying attention. A big thanks to anyone who has ever done an FA whether they decided to share it or not. All of your hard work is appreciated whether its a little buttdragger in a talus field or a grade V alpine ridge.
Michelle

Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Nov 28, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
I made the mistake of telling someone I thought could be trusted about an area. Never f*#king again. Ever. Especially when return sharing has never happened. All the stupid secrecy sh#t gets on my nerves and reminds me of high school.
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Nov 28, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
For most of my routes, I can't think of who I'd be "reporting" them too.

"Yeah, I did this totally rad new route called Lost in the Woods on an unnamed crag in an unnamed location. You drive up Silver Fork rd for four or five miles and look for a big tree by a pullout, then dip into the woods heading south, south east for about 2 to 2.5 miles until you come across a hidden circular dome in the trees (it's the route on the left) the climbings no harder than .10a, maybe a couple .10d moves."

Good luck everybody!
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Nov 28, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
You should report them to us Salamanizer, so we know how much you've lost it ;).

Nah, sounds like fun. I've got my eye on a plum hidden in plain view.... It'll have to wait for a bit and I might have to get my hands on a drill if it proves promising. Although, that's probably a coward's way out.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Nov 28, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
I say share if it's not some super secret location.

I understand how people like to keep a place/crag/boulderfield to themselves so they can pick off all the plums. Not my style BTW...but I do understand...

That said, I have done a bunch of FAs that I don't bother to tell people about except for friends and such...mostly due to legal issues...wink!

WOO HOO!!!


JA
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Nov 28, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
Quote Here
This place was my little secret from 35 yrs ago (77/78). The place has seen alot of development since and I only recently became aware of thru
the Lassen/Plumas County thread below. Paul Bernard contacted me about his upcoming guidebook and we set history straight before the book was published. So since the time I climbed there the name of the crag was changed, names of my routes were changed by people thinking they had the FA's. Many routes now have bolted pro and belay/rap stations when my 1st ascents were done clean on lead or top roped.
Quote Here


Quote Here
That's a shame and the best reason, by far, to report fa trad routes done in good style by yourself or those that you have knowledge of.
Quote Here

Who would I have reported it to BITD? (77/78)
This was an undiscovered crag that only my 2 climbing partners and I
knew of. I did let Joe Fitschen know that the place he pointed us to
was a gem and that we had done some routes there.

I don't harbor any annimosity towards those that came after me thinking they had the FA's and bolting "their route". I don't own the crag, the Forest Service does and it feels good to know others have enjoyed the place enough to develop it. By the way, I only had Paul change the name of 1 route, let 2 route names remain the same, informed him of 2 others he did not know of, and only claimed FA's that I led ground up, even though
I top roped in 77/78 the routes Neff put up and bolted in 89/90.

I'm just glad I could set the history and record straight and contribute
to the new guidebook effort.

P. Bernard and Adventurous One,
Thanks for your continued efforts on the new guidebook, glad I could help and look forward to buying the published work.

Tad

PS, I guess you can tell I can't figure out the damn quoteing format here.

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 28, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
So.... where is "I am" AKA StoneMaster Martin V. ???

Would love to get his take on this.


I do FAs for the excitement.... back in the 70's it was easy to drive up to some rock, see a good line and climb it. If you didn't find the usual hints that its been climbed, tat, faint pin scars, loose stuff you knock off... you might be on a FA.

The whole clean climbing deal, for me, was so that everybody could get the feeling of climbing a virgin chunk of stone.

I have had climbs claimed by others even though I have photos with the date stamp.....

It did make me sad to have a climb Erik and I did in Sequoia on "Little Baldy" - now named "hoodwink" just bolted over. We did it with like 8 bolts in 4 pitches, most on the first pitch....we had some PRE PRODUCTION FRIENDS and they really cut down on the need for bolts. A few years later some Bosh welding climbers put in like 30 bolts.... They were confused when they would find a 1/4 incher every now and then.... OH well.

Now I like to leave Dimes and Nickles from the current year. So if you ever find a dime sticking in a crack.... look at the date.

But now that we have places to record FA's I turn em in.... once my buddies say OK to list.

scuffy b

climber
heading slowly NNW
Nov 28, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
Hey there, Dingus,
I second guess myself pretty regularly, about that draw.
I don't think too many people will go in there more than twice...
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Nov 28, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
Then there's the places where you go do some really proud FA's, tell the whole world how really awesome the rock is (thinking that climbers really deserve to know about this stuff and get on it) and no one ever goes and repeats these routes (which are as good as it gets) because they are true back country climbs, and apparently most climbers can barely walk.

I had a good laugh when, a few years ago, a climbing mag article referred to The Needles as a "back country area." Christ, you can car camp there.

At least we've been able to share the great climbing at The Rincon with a few hard men and women who don't mind hiking uphill, and it looks like my friend and neighbor Justin is about to make the journey too, but how about the Gorge of Despair? It is no secret that for those able to handle the logistics and approach there are not only great routes there to climb, I think Despairadoes awaits a second, but the opportunities for new routes are amazing.

So there. I sprayed but I doubt it will exactly draw a crowd.
limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2012 - 09:19pm PT
Guy: Hoodwink is four pitches? Crap, I thought I climbed it but only went one pitch. Next time... Looks like you should have sprayed :)

Kris: I can't stand that I haven't been to gorge of despair! You're right that most climbers won't walk, I've met very few people who would consider going there. It scared me at first when you put stuff online about it, but then I realized that nobody is going there even if you make a G.O.D. guidebook. I've seen it from every side, but have yet to climb... Desperairadoes looks sweet, but is out of my league. Maybe if I wore tights


Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Nov 28, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
Maybe if I wore tights

Tights are essential! You see, if you paint yourself into a corner by wearing flashy clothing you are in a position where failure is not an option. Go up there in some frumpy outfit and when you bail all your buds say "good effort." Go up in bright orange lycra and bail and your buds all call you a fag. That's incentive for ya.
limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
Hahahaa!!! Now I get it!
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Nov 28, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
That's trippy - goes through that stack O Ceilings/Arches?
Credit: McHale's Navy
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Nov 28, 2012 - 09:35pm PT
From where I am there, it goes up and right through one more flap, then into the corner for a few wild moves up past that tooth, then out a bit left on the actual arete, then back in the corner. It's a friggin' wild pitch!

McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Nov 28, 2012 - 09:40pm PT
If I went up there to do the 2nd ascent and pulled it off I would not tell a soul. I would write a (very obscure) poem about it and post on the poetry thread.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Nov 28, 2012 - 09:44pm PT
YO Limpingcrab
I was just kidding about tweeting, I don't even know how to tweet. I just thought it would make a cute first post.

What I did this summer was spray endlessly on facebook and post some shots on supertopo.
Had to be kind of ambiguous about location, though, because there are still some sweet lines to be had.
I think once most of the best lines are done did, the main man will do a little mtn proj thing and give topos to the local guidebook guy.
ladyscarlett

Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
Nov 29, 2012 - 04:31am PT
whatever you do...beWARE the n00bs! We are everywhere, lurking in the shadows, just waiting for that key piece of info that will lead us to the heaven of all climbs we KNOW is just over the next ridge.

Who knows, if we find it, we may just come to love, respect, and care for it ourselves...or not, and share it willy-nilly!
so beware, because you can't really tell if the n00b will care or jump straight to share.

But not everyone deserves to know, and in my experience, that kind of trust is earned.

2p

cheers
LS
rich sims

Social climber
co
Nov 29, 2012 - 11:01am PT
77-91 I remember hours of searching out boulders in SDeggo.
The year before I left and moved to Colorado I had a conversation with a concrete finisher who climbed EC Mountain and other areas in SD in the 50s.
I showed him the red SD county guide and he showed me where old CCC trails were.one trail made reported 4 hour bushwack into a 30 minute stroll. Access was an issue to getting to some areas.
He left his rack an rope on top of EC Mountain after an epic accent.
It has been almost 25 years that we last talked, but it would be interesting to talk to him again.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Nov 29, 2012 - 11:18am PT
Go up there in some frumpy outfit and when you bail all your buds say "good effort." Go up in bright orange lycra and bail and your buds all call you a fag. That's incentive for ya.

WOW great tip. That is how you free climb through hard terrain! They don't tell you this sh#t in "How to climb 5.12" books!! This thread is golden.

I had a good laugh when, a few years ago, a climbing mag article referred to The Needles as a "back country area." Christ, you can car camp there.

Soon people will be complaining about approaches to Buttermilks.

Why Desperadoes did not see 2nd ascent (maybe)? Think of it this way. If you can climb 5.12, why would you go all the way there to repeat a route? You are likely to look for own first ascents, or repeat routes closer to the road (unless it's a real striking line. I think the new free climb on Angel Wings may see a 2nd and 3rd at some point). How many striking lines on Tehipete Dome were repeated? And that's Tehipete Dome!
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 29, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
The pictures do not show how steep Desperadoes really is....

Its doubble overhanging!!! The photo of Kris, where you head right looks like you get to a rest spot, but NO... its OW and you... well I, was clinging for dear life to just regain my breath. Then the climb gets really steep.

Im just watin for some young buck (Miles, Vitality, Limping)to go do the thing and down rate it.

It really not that far of a hike, if you use the Mules. Hiking out is done in one day and its not a death bushwack by anymeans.

And Limping... Yes Hoodwink went to the top... pretty much straight up from the end of P1... follow the many bolts of the Merkin.

And Dan... Did you see the photo of your pack? I still lug that one around when I have a big load to haul.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Nov 29, 2012 - 12:42pm PT
...to go do the thing and down rate it.

Ya think?

I'll just say that I was being very conservative calling pitches two and three 11d. Especially two which as you say throws everything at you but the kitchen sink. Pitch three is more of a boulder problem followed by a bunch of 5.9. Pitch 5 is the business though. I know the factor of intimidation doesn't count in the grade, but holy crap it is wild up there. Thank God for tights!
limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
I'd probably have to be able to climb it to give any input on the rating, and I'm a long way off from that level. It's one of those "someday I hope to be able to climb that" kind of routes.

Has it had a first non-free ascent? I can do that I think.
lubbockclimber

Trad climber
lubbock,tx
Nov 29, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
When climbing in my home state Texas. No matter how awsome it I don't tell a soul.
Why?
Because, it was still in Texas!

Example first ascent of a 5.11 (?) at Palo Duro canyon. I can't imagine anyone ever giving two shits about climbing that choss depository.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Nov 29, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
I'd probably have to be able to climb it to give any input on the rating, and I'm a long way off from that level. It's one of those "someday I hope to be able to climb that" kind of routes.

100% lol. These guys think we can climb 5.12. haha. Maybe if someone sets up a haul system.
Seriously though I hope Daniel's knee recovers an we can get out to GOD next year. Hopefully it is doable with your schedule! Most likely I am taking the whole summer off...so many damn places to visit.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Nov 29, 2012 - 01:58pm PT
I wan't tell you where it is, but you can take a look at this beauty.
An excellent 40' long flaring crack/face/slab. First and only ascend on top rope.
photo not found
Missing photo ID#256859

photo not found
Missing photo ID#256863

It's MINE!!!
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 29, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
"Whatever you do...beWARE the n00bs! We are everywhere, lurking in the shadows, just waiting for that key piece of info that will lead us to the heaven of all climbs we KNOW is just over the next ridge.
Who knows, if we find it, we may just come to love, respect, and care for it ourselves...or not, and share it willy-nilly!
So beware, because you can't really tell if the n00b will care or jump straight to share.
But not everyone deserves to know, and in my experience, that kind of trust is earned."--LS

It's a Killer Kwestion, and one deserving of a think.

I'm divided, and the kwestion is the greater good, obviously. No n00b's equipped with sensitivity. the urge to spread the news of ANY new thing is hard to resist. I like Vitaliy's style, that of doing cleanly as possible the classics, telling of those, and keeping the firsts in abeyance, so to speak.

If it's a local crag, the Grotto up in Jamestown, for example. There are many lines, and only the locals know 'em. Word gets around, like it or not, because the chalk's still there. There's no need for anyone to crow, because it's one pitch, it's not changing the course of history to add that to the general fund of knowledge.

Of course, this practice of hiding FAs leaves guidebook editors weeping, but F them.

In an "arena" like the Ditch, Zion, THE GUNKS, and Squamish, things need to be arranged and re-arranged from tome to tome. It keeps them editors happy and is a valuable historical tool. The smaller crags it's just up to the individuals who climb there the most often to pass around the information.

It was easier by far in the past to keep up than it is now. You looked at the Sierra Club Bulletin, then Summit, then Climbing. And for international reports you had Mountain and the AAC. It was a totally different game then, in the seventies.

Today it's much easier to report, so I imagine it is more tempting to put up the news of your latest 5.7c, which is only a variation on an existing line sandwiched in between two others which follow two separate bolt lines, whose origins are so well-documented in the two-page copy of a Zerox that passes for the local guidebook. Tough choice there.

Why bother? Is God going to come down and anoint you Herself?

If one were Werner, though, it would be a total different other thing entirely, un bound byconvention, fearless of the outcome...
Credit: mouse from merced
Were I were Werner, I'd get Merry off her butt and go out and do some FAs, write them up, then offer the original hard copies for sale on eBay for whatever I could get, were I Werner.

Climbing Bits from the Yosemite Ritz, that's some quacker.
limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
So what do all of you think about sites like mountainproject?

I'm torn. I like to use it, but I'm not sure if I like myself or anyone else putting stuff on it?
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Nov 29, 2012 - 06:23pm PT
When I go there for information I find that it's pretty hit and miss. A lot of pages lack key information like how to get there. But I like seeing comments by people who have done a route or visited an area. If I don't want beta I wont look there.

I'm pretty careful about what I will post on MP. For example the Gorge of Despair stuff is pretty carefully filtered. Some things don't belong on the web but rather should remain as nice surprises for those who actually get there.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Nov 29, 2012 - 06:27pm PT
How are the views there? Beautiful sunsets?

Personally, I think when you post adventurous climbs they will not ever attract mainstream climbers you would meet at Lovers Leap. The kind of people you will meet will probably be the kind that you can get along just fine. If I go to GOD next year and find a few people there, I would be happy to see them!
So when you do post some new crags without topos/ step by step climb instructions, and with even minimal approaches, they will usually not attract big crowds anyway. Probably it is up to an individual if they want to post or not post- depending if the climb is worthy.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 29, 2012 - 06:28pm PT
...to go do the thing and down rate it.

Ya think?

I'll just say that I was being very conservative calling pitches two and three 11d. Especially two which as you say throws everything at you but the kitchen sink. Pitch three is more of a boulder problem followed by a bunch of 5.9. Pitch 5 is the business though. I know the factor of intimidation doesn't count in the grade, but holy crap it is wild up there.

Kris you know I am just kidding..... We have never been downrated - ever.

Called sandbagers before, but heck I can't account for others lack of skill.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Nov 29, 2012 - 06:48pm PT
Guy that reminds me of one of the great climbing quotes of all time...

Some fella I didn't know got shut down hard on one of Scott Loomis' routes at Courtright. He turned to Scott, who was sitting there quite well relaxed, and said "You're a f*cking sandbagger! I can climb 10c. That is no 10c!"

Scott's measured reply: "It's a technical move. I can't help it if you don't know how to climb."
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Nov 29, 2012 - 07:45pm PT
If you have "...have never been downrated - ever."

Good chance you underrate your routes a lot. By some climbers' definition, that makes you a sandbagger...

Innocent, Ignorant, or Insecure

Nothing personal - just an observation
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Nov 29, 2012 - 07:50pm PT
Kevin all I am is a bit conservative about the grades.

Innocent, Ignorant, or Insecure

None of the above. I just don't like grade inflation. I'm not usually off by much but if I miss it will be under not over by intent. Keeps it real.
limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2012 - 08:00pm PT
I like inflated grades. They make me feel hardcore
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Nov 29, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
Like I said, Kris, nothing personal.

I'm sure you know where the Innocent, Ignorant, Insecure comment came from, but to inform the younger climbers - Bridwell wrote an article for Mountain Magazine, I believe, in the early/mid seventies titled "The Innocent, the Ignorant and the Insecure" about downrating climbs.

Rating new climbs is challenging, if you care about being accurate, because there are lots of factors that can be at play which likely won't be at play on subsequent ascents.

Dirt on holds from cleaning, loose rock, energy spent drilling, energy spent routefinding, the general unknown - all that stuff and more. Makes putting a number on it difficult, and a trivial part of the equation really.

I try to be accurate, but I probably tend to lean to the overrate side more than underrating because I feel it's generally a more enjoyable, and sometimes safer, experience for following ascents if they're not getting in over their heads. And that's really why a first ascensionist bothers to rate a route - for the benefit of the next guy.

When you hardly ever climb established routes at developed areas, your perspective of the standards gets a little blurry. Especially with old age.

About the only downside of overrating is ridicule from underraters. Whatever.


Like Abe Lincoln said "You can please some of the people..."


Edit: Oh look! My post was at 5:11 - felt like 5:12 to me


Edit: actually it was, " You can fool some of the people..."

That probably applies just as well
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Nov 29, 2012 - 08:22pm PT
Edit: Oh look! My post was at 5:11 - felt like 5:12 to me

Classic!! lol...
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 29, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
Kevin.... good post.

When I rate things I always try to go back in my mind to a similar climb and similar moves, based on some sort of standard.

To me the STANDARD is Taquitz.

If something is about as hard as the OpenBook.... i call it 5.9.

to me 10d is hard... and I don't like to call something 11 if its hard for me just cause I had a hard time.

At the GOD the whole thing felt really serious, because of the distance from the road.

That being said, I agree with Kris call on the ratings.

I really get disapointed when I do a climb that is rated ... 11c and in reality goes at like 10d...

One last thing, I never- on purpose - sandbag folks. I think that sucks.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:25am PT
At the GOD the whole thing felt really serious, because of the distance from the road.

I think I said it somewhere before, but it is quite interesting how some people would not call GOD as alpine climbing due to relatively low elevation. But being somewhere so remote feels a lot more 'serious/alpine' than climbing stuff on the Hulk or on East Buttress of Whitney.
MisterE

Social climber
Nov 30, 2012 - 02:14am PT
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1873871
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 30, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
I think I said it somewhere before, but it is quite interesting how some people would not call GOD as alpine climbing due to relatively low elevation. But being somewhere so remote feels a lot more 'serious/alpine' than climbing stuff on the Hulk or on East Buttress of Whitney.

Vitality... The GOD is the most remote place I have ever visited in the Sierra. The "trails" stop at Frypan Mdws.... It's all cross-country hiking but its easy to follow cause you stick to drainage systems. At nite you see no man-made lights. There are/were zero signs that people even go there.... we signed summit registers where we were the third accent... first in 1956, by Ax Nelson.

When your at Whitney, Mt Sill, Hulk... you know that people are around, you can look down and see then on the trails, you find all sorts of man made debrits laying around.... At the GOD we only found stuff laying around that the Native Americans left.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 30, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
Remote....in the Sierras. I guess that's possible in a relative sense.

Share first ascents this is climbing not surfing.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
guyman, how long were you guys there for? saw any petroglyphs? Hope limpingcrab and I will get out there in 2013 for sure. Seems like a sweet place.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
we are working on new NV areas..They wont be divulged till completed of what we want. Nevada has , im thinkin, about two million routes waiting to be- on cliffs that have never felt a human before. Odd how what appears in the distance to be a small crag grows to 600 feet by the time you touch it.
Then throw in stellar raptor shows as hawks falcons and eagles give you fly bys and not a sound or sight of civilization to be had...
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 30, 2012 - 02:11pm PT
guyman, how long were you guys there for? saw any petroglyphs? Hope limpingcrab and I will get out there in 2013 for sure. Seems like a sweet place.

We would take a week vacation and use the weekends on both ends to do the hiking...

No petroglyphs... better stuff, thats all I will say.

And to Donini.... remote is a relative thing, don't you think? We looked into getting a Helo ride to the top of one of the formations... they are outside of the NP boundry... from Fresno. This would be like a 40 min round trip. No -dice- some stupid FAA regulation about flying low.

But back to the OP.... Yes, I like to share the information about climbs and the climbinig spots I go to. But I do like to get the plumbs picked before spilling the beans to the public.

And Ron, are you counting all the boulder problems?????? ;>)
limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2012 - 02:44pm PT
Remote....in the Sierras. I guess that's possible in a relative sense.

Sounds like somebody spent too much time on the east side and in yosemite!

Spent 41 days in the sierra this summer counting fishing, climbing, hiking and backpacking and hardly ever say anyone. Also never saw one climber! But compared to AK and other countries, you have a good point.


We looked into getting a Helo ride to the top of one of the formations... they are outside of the NP boundry

What formation? Harrington? GOD is in the park.
cultureshock

Trad climber
Mountain View
Nov 30, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
Share!

http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Adventure-and-an-FA-at-Merriam-Peak/t11761n.html

It would be great to see more stuff in the AAJ too.

Pretty slim number of reports for California:

http://aaj.americanalpineclub.org/climbs-and-expeditions/north-america/contiguous-united-states-lower-48/california/

I'm sure people are doing more new routes.

I think that new areas will most often be kept secret. Sometimes there are access issues, some times due to potential crowding.

Personally I don't know many people who are willing to put in the effort to do new routes.

It's one thing to do an onsight FA and just leave the climb as you found it (which is totally cool and proud). It's a whole other thing to clean a climb and then execute the FA when it is at your limit. This often means many trips and more total effort.

Kris/Guy your route on the Silver Turret looks totally rad. I was WAY psyched when Kris put it up on Mountain Project. Maybe someday...

Did you guys ever climb at Tehipite Dome? Seems like that would be a good first place to go in the Sequoia/Kings canyon area.

 Luke
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:13pm PT
Did you guys ever climb at Tehipite Dome?

I have not climbed at Tehipite at least not yet.

As you can see from some of the pictures, when you are in the Gorge of Despair you are looking down at it from above - quite a sight!

There are a couple folks who pop up on these threads from time to time who have done big things on Tehipite. EC Joe of course.

I'd like to just walk out to the top of the thing once from Wishon with enough stuff to hang a couple days and a good photo set up.
telemon01

Trad climber
Montana
Nov 30, 2012 - 09:39pm PT
Here are a couple of probable first ascents from two days ago- unless someone climbed them previously and never shared

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 30, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
No such thing as a first ascent on ice....every year, actually nearly every day, the route changes. Kinda like going to the gym and finding that the green route you finally mastered has become the yellow route.
weezy

climber
Nov 30, 2012 - 09:48pm PT
Tell em! Some routes get better with traffic.
telemon01

Trad climber
Montana
Nov 30, 2012 - 09:56pm PT
ice climbs are ephemeral, but it is justifiable, in my mind, to claim a first ascent of a specific line.

Roughster

Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
Nov 30, 2012 - 11:42pm PT
Whatever makes you feel like a special snowflake. Within 5 years of your death, no one will give a sh#t other than your loved ones and close friends. Climbers are a peculiar bunch with warped realities and false senses of self-importance. I raise a toast to the forgettable and to those who seem to find a way to get the job done despite the impossible, and oh so cool, opinion of the Internet Superhero.

/cheers!
telemon01

Trad climber
Montana
Dec 1, 2012 - 10:13am PT

Bolts create a more permanent legacy- we all have different forms of self expression I guess.

Roughster

Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
Sorry Telemon1, I have to disagree. In the context of "life as we know it, bolts are far from permanent. I have seen area bolts "rust" to unrecognizable blobs, soon to be gone forever within 15-20 years. I have seen complete areas striped of hangers and 2 years later you couldn't tell anyone had ever set foot there before.

Is drilling a 3/8" x 3" hole in a rock really that big of a deal considering:

Credit: Roughster

Maybe this is a sign I am just getting old, but who really gives a f*#k? Are we so important as climbers that we can call some small holes in out of the way rocks as a national tragedy? Have we offended God by actually enjoying the outdoors?

As we as a society slowly migrate to the cities and lock ourselves in front of TVs and computers, I don't think we are far away from the vast majority of people not even knowing WTF is going outside their self-imposed prison walls. Climbers enjoying nature in all of climbing forms should be celebrated.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 1, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
The Hurt Driller vs The Internet Superheroes

How... old.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Dec 1, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
The bolts really have nothing to do with the "Legacy".

What will endure is the line and to a lesser extent its place in time in the chronology of climbing evolution.

The decision to drill is one that opens the driller to a full range of emotional feedback from other climbers, from thankfulness and respect to ridicule and derision. All these can change and evolve just like everything else people do or believe.

A legacy can't be one until it's been looked at through the filter of years gone by, and its impact, value, weight, or lack thereof can only be measured in juxtaposition with others' works and history's turns.
Roughster

Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
Dec 2, 2012 - 10:52am PT
I wouldn't call myself a hurt driller...any more that is :-) I have seen a shift, to the positive lately in the general climbing community. Well at least the ones that actually climb. My biggest beef has always been with the overriding premise that being negative and hyper critical is cool.

Given my interaction with the younger climbers hitting the crags these days, it appears that fortuntely this negativity is mostly relegated to the Internet Heroes of my and previous generations. I honestly think the climbing community will be better off as a whole after our generations are dead and gone.
haireball

Mountain climber
leavenworth, WA
Dec 5, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
I love "adventure" climbing, just eyeball a line and go, so I often climb routes with no more beta than the route name, grade, and location. In managed venues (like national parks) where climbs are restricted by registration and permit, my fa's have obviously been reported. However,loving the adventure and uncertainty as I do,I'm willing to leave it for others, too - so I've gravitated to NOT reporting first ascents of new alpine routes. That way, the next climber or party can enjoy the same mental/emotional experience that I did. If someone later claims the FA, big deal. Caveats, I do share new routes with close friends that I know will greatly enjoy them; I also greatly enjoy historic classics, and I do research these ahead of time; and I'm not above using a topo on a long climb with challenging routefinding. I guess sharing/reporting for me is situational.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 5, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
I honestly think the climbing community will be better off as a whole after our generations are dead and gone.


Damn, dude, you need to go easy on yourself, it's just rock climbing. Step away from the ledge!
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Dec 5, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
Bump for good thread. Tired of that shipooppiishitshowbullshit on the front page.
Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
Dec 5, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
Roughster;....interesting observations;...thanks for sharing. I do understand what you are saying;...it does seem, especially on the internet, that being negative/cranky/pissed off/hard-ass is often considered cool. Seems like first ascents are often magnets to kooky peoples rants. First ascents also leave written footprints for gov. agencies to point the finger at climbers saying foul/over-use/abuse;..and then comes more rules/regs/restrictions. I love to share info on my FAs......but I don't like more rules/regs/restrictions. The whiners/complainers/kooks who like to rant about FAs and bolts and such;....well;....as I get older;...it's just entertainment and amusement mostly now-a-days;.....I can't get too worked up about it. I try not to say much about climbs being new routes or old routes;....best just to say; "I went climbing;...I had fun.".....and really;....that's enough and tends to keep things simple. I agree w/Donini too;....share the info;..this is climbing;..not surfing. I like to climb, and I wanna know. Warbler hits the nail on the head too;...it is about exploration, nature, the search/quest, discovery, hanging w/your homies. Warbler;..tell me more about the hot chicks in skimpy clothing;.....all I see usually is Tucker with a beer.

"Yesterday we went climbing;...we had fun."

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 5, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
The bolts really have nothing to do with the "Legacy".

What will endure is the line and to a lesser extent its place in time in the chronology of climbing evolution.

The decision to drill is one that opens the driller to a full range of emotional feedback from other climbers, from thankfulness and respect to ridicule and derision. All these can change and evolve just like everything else people do or believe.

A legacy can't be one until it's been looked at through the filter of years gone by, and its impact, value, weight, or lack thereof can only be measured in juxtaposition with others' works and history's turns.

Kevin, very well put, and thoughtfull.

Me, I just love to climb new things, go new places and challenge myself.

If it was Josh for the rest of my life, I would just die.



dave bingham

Sport climber
Hailey ID
Dec 5, 2012 - 10:30pm PT
Why are climbers such stupid asses?
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