The Origin and History of Belay Devices

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 41 - 60 of total 113 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Nov 25, 2012 - 02:07pm PT
about the chain link ..... I believe one of the ideas behind the big alluminum plate had to do with heat dissipation. Same with the figure eight. I assume that at some point friction heat can get extreme enough to damage the rope or your various body parts.

That is a rappeling issue mostly i guess but if you're ever tempted to rap with a chain link its probably worth thinking about!
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 25, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
Looks like the rectangular single hole probably hit the market first. I have one buried somewhere...LOL
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Nov 25, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
Warbler, I also had a figure 8 in 1977 - not sure of before then - seems like it was a fairly recent acquisition for me then - may have been made by Clog - I still have that one and will track it down. I used it for that season for solo rapelling it seems safe in terms of heat dissipation. I was atracted to it because it was large - it was twice as large and massive as current 8s. Actually, I think it was twice as big as the 80s versions and probably 3 times the mass, at least, of current versions.

Looks like there's a pic of my Clog descender type over on the 'The first Purposeful Nut' thread.
ec

climber
ca
Nov 25, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
Circa 1974, Forrest Mountaineering
Circa 1974, Forrest Mountaineering
Credit: ec
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Nov 25, 2012 - 05:22pm PT
I never had a problem with using a carabiner brake for belay on occasion. It worked well on multi-pitch, when belaying the second from above. A double biner brake was ideal. Of course, I was only 15, saw someone else utilize it, and did the same.

The Sticht plate was quite nice, once I was fortunate enough to find one at Tahquitz.

By 79, I went to the figure 8, using that for many years....until BD came out with the ATC.

The old hip belay sure held LOTS of falls back in the day.
ec

climber
ca
Nov 25, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
The old hip belay sure held LOTS of falls back in the day.

Oh, yeah...

 ec
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Nov 25, 2012 - 08:18pm PT
Looks like there's a pic of my Clog descender type over on the 'The first Purposeful Nut' thread.

I noticed that too, McHale, and the date on the mag is 1971, so 8's have been around at least that long.


Just found this; pretty funny:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=dDRXAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Nov 25, 2012 - 10:04pm PT
All Of This Has Happened Before And Will Happen Again!
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
Storrick does a first rate job but it seems that he too is still trying to nail down dates of product origination.

I wonder if the figure eight was designed with clip ring belaying in mind. Using it as friction brake in normal rappel mode is certainly something they thought of in the design.

Since figure eights and Sticht plates show up at about the same time it would be fun to crawl around in these guys minds.

Anyone have the Clog catalog from 1970 or thereabouts? A catalog shot of the small ring in play would be definitive!
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
Anders- Why did you pull your post upthread?
JimT

climber
Munich
Jan 18, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
Clog started in 1966 and there were already 8s in use by then, there was one in bronze available in Chamonix at that time as one of my climbing mentors had one, probably Cassin but maybe Italian. Certainly the first one Im aware of but it wasnt used for belaying, the big Clog one was probably the first was used that way (Ive still got mine lying around somewhere).
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Jan 18, 2013 - 03:16pm PT


"By 79, I went to the figure 8, using that for many years"...

You hold your age well...

You don't look a day over 76...
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2013 - 09:12pm PT
Thank for the background Jim.

A date of 1966 would likely put the Clog or predecessor as the earliest belay device unless the Pierre Allain meathook descender had a configuration that could be used that way. I have never seen the instructions for the Pierre Allain and I don't own one to experiment with.

My catalog collection is poor but I have the Allain descender in a 1965 Eiger catalog.

The earliest belay device is likely to be a carabiner used with a Munter hitch but it is fun to try to line this all up in a verifiable way.

I wonder who invented the brake bar?
JimT

climber
Munich
Jan 19, 2013 - 03:38am PT
The Sticht plate was popularised before the HMS, heres a rough translation of an article about it all. It should be noted that it was written by a German-speaking Swiss from Constance who may not have been completely unbiased in who he thinks has the prior claim!
There are other articles with slightly different views.

"From the mid-60s it was realized from fall tests the need to replace the previously used static (fixed) belay methods by dynamic belaying (with controlled rope slip). At the end of 1967 Franz Ruso,(from Constance in Switzerland), proposed as the "braking carabiner loop" which is identical with modern Munter hitch belay method, but in the heat of the various other developments in rope brakes this was largely forgotten. The Sticht brake became the established method. Today we know that the brake loop (HMS) had been known as such for some time in mountain rescue where it is used for lowering of loads as wounded or material. The difference was Rusos idea to use this braking loop to belay partners in that the free end of the rope in hands of the belayer slides and is held back in the event of a fall by hand strength. It has been found that this belay quite ideally acts dynamically.
At the UIAA meetings in 1971 in Trento and a second time in 1973 Andermatt this belay method was demonstrated by the Italian delegation. It was only at the second congress it was accepted by the Commission and then as the "UIAA belay" recommended. It was the wish of the UIAA to publicise the new belay method without attatching the inventors name.
In some German-speaking countries, the term Munter hitch has prevailed. (Transl.Note: Not in the part of Germany I live in where HMS is the universal term.) At the UIAA meeting in Trento 1971, Werner Munter had shown a new backup method, which he called "karabiner-shoulder protection". He used the already known HMS, but to increase the braking force ran the free end of the rope around the shoulders. This made a dynamic belay impossible."

The article goes on with a discussion over the various claims and publicity particularly from Munters side about who invented what, in the competitive (and somewhat small-minded) world of Swiss and Italian Tirol mountaineering. From a modern point of view its all a bit childish!

Werner Munter is still around and recently retired from the Swiss avalanche laboratory.
nutstory

climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
Jan 19, 2013 - 03:54am PT
Pierre Allain "catalog"
Pierre Allain "catalog"
Credit: nutstory
Steve, is it what you have in mind...
The P.A. 77 descendeur hit the market in... 1977
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 19, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
This page from the 1964 Eiger Company catalog shows the descender in question.


Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
Does anyone have a Cassin or Clog figure eight bought around 1970 for show?
wivanoff

Trad climber
CT
Mar 15, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
The MSR auto-belayer is the gadget I remember - http://storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevicesPage/Misc/AnchorBrakePages/AnchorBrake0877.html The web page says it's from the mid-1970s, and I definitely remember it from 1972/1973.

Yeah, I sent that to him in 2007 along with a photocopy of the instructions. I don't think I ever actually used the thing. Also, sent him a red anodized MSR "chainlink" belay plate.

I had used a figure 8 to belay TR on a Goldline. By the time I bought a kernmantel rope I had acquired a Stitch plate without the spring. Used several home made belay plates and a "Betta-Brake" for several years before the ATCs came along.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Mar 15, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#294358

A Sticht on 9 saves mine.
ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
Mar 15, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
^^^Looks just like mine Philo, how many times have you had that little "keeper" string get caught up and in the plate with the rope? That's why I got one with the spring.
Messages 41 - 60 of total 113 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews