Discussion Topic |
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 24, 2012 - 09:06pm PT
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I just recently picked up this early Salewa Sticht plate and though that it would be fun to explore the early history of this innovative piece of hardware.
These were around in 1970 when I first got into climbing but hadn't been available for long at that point. I don't have good enough catalog coverage to pin down the first appearance in the US. Anyone know the first date and plate shape?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2012 - 09:17pm PT
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I got ya Murry!
Wait a minute, you're all runout- Factor Two?
Lemme add an extra biner!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 24, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
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Those spring belay plates are still the best device around to teach people to belay with as they don't lock back.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 24, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
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I was a hippy back then, so it was only right and proper to sneer at Sticht plates and use a hip belay.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Nov 24, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
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Yates below, but I don't know when I got it. I was experimenting with links of chain also in the late 60s and very early 70s. I used carabiner breaking systems for quite awhile until figure 8s came out, rather than wrapping with plates. I recall liking the links and then plates for walls since you could fall asleep at the belay without causing a disaster.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2012 - 09:32pm PT
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Except for getting to say "California" not much Hip about that belay.
I liked the idea of a chunk of metal to abuse just fine.
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Nov 24, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
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origin, history i dunno. seemed like sophistication using one after having melted the coattails
and freed the feathers of a fancy new down jacket holding a fall "the old way"
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
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How old is that Yates unit? Was it sold in Seattle?
Ah yes, the Missing Link...who thought of the idea and made them to sell. THAT is the question.
MSR used to sell simple chainlinks for balaying but the Hot Link always seemed to get dropped.
I recall a small rectangular single slot Sticht and a large round single hole that showed up ahead of the two plates shown in the OP.
Somebody please check the German literature for any early writing or adds by Sticht as I bet he got his product out there early.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Nov 24, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
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You talking to me? I probably bought the Yates in Boise in the early to mid 70s. Yates would know when they made em!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
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The one and only Yates.
Dan- Do you recall how the belay link concept came to you?
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Nov 24, 2012 - 10:43pm PT
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Mine's old too--but knott that old. . .Steve, I have a 1973
vintage Sticht plate. Used it for many, many years. . .
But I think Tarbuster still uses his!
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Nov 24, 2012 - 10:46pm PT
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Steve, I don't. I know I did not invent it. We just copied the idea - I'm sure it was going around like a virus at the time.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
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I recently went through the 1960s Summit mags and don't recall seeing an add for belay plates. Trying to pin down the entry point for this technique and hardware is a compelling historical inquiry.
Pitoncraft and organized belaying arrived in the Sierra via the Canadian Rockies just ahead of Underhill arriving to teach it to the Sierra Club.
This belay technique could have filtered in from many directions.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Nov 24, 2012 - 11:35pm PT
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i haven't seen any examples in the ol;d catalogues and mags i've looked at. two caveats-- first, i've never specifically looked for the first appearance of mechanical belay devices and i haven't researched past the early 60s stuff.
sliding friction knots go way, way back-- presumably folks used them in climbing in the early-middle 20th century if not before.
have you emailed salewa? interesting that salewa was an early adopter if not a pioneer. the simple fact that we refer to it as a "sticht" plate suggest a german origin. since the germans (the tirolians, actually) pioneered pitoncraft, that would make sense. but i always thought of the sticht plate as something best suited to a hip belay, an innovation that seems to have come out of berkeley. when did the austrians switch to hip belays? if no one here knows, i'll ask around. many of the french i climbed with as late as the early eighties were still using shoulder belays. a sticht plate would be awkward with a shoulder belay, but it would work well in rescue or guide situations with an overhead anchor.
on a tangent:
Underhill arriving to teach it to the Sierra Club.
if "it" means pitoncraft and modern belaying, he didn't, at least in california. i can't find any evidence that underhill was personally familiar with the state-of-the-art in pitoncraft. the sc photos of what he taught the californians show a standing shoulder belay of the sort common among french and swiss guides since at least the late 19th century. no pitons. i know that miriam had climbed in the dolomites with a guide who was genuinely competent in pitoncraft, but i don't know that he ever did. if you have found detailed accounts of him demonstrating competence in pitoncraft in the rockies, i'd love to see it-- as best i can tell, he (like most of his favorite guides in the western alps) viewed pitons as a german perversion.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 24, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
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1978 ad. I trust Royal, if he's the pimp. :)
1987 bandwagoneer's ad.
Help me Jesus and a hip belay are all I've ever used. Thank God I never had to catch screamers as a daily routine. It's why the BDs are so popular. Along with certain other (six letters) relay devices...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 25, 2012 - 04:33am PT
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I began climbing in 75, and strictly used a hip belay. I remember seeing guys with Sticht plates, and it seemed like a good idea...I just couldn't afford one. We only hip belayed and initially cast a very dubious eye towards stitch plates which persisted for some time as we were unwilling to forgo the feel and immediacy of hip belays. And I still hip belay quite a bit and teach it as well. It's a foundational skill from my perspective.
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Rudder
Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
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Nov 25, 2012 - 04:36am PT
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We only hip belayed and initially cast a very dubious eye towards stitch plates which persisted for some time as we were unwilling to forgo the feel and immediacy of hip belays. And I still hip belay quite a bit and teach it as well. It's a foundational skill from my perspective.
Same here... and Harding didn't need to belay device to climb the nose! ;) Didnt' where no helmet either, damn it. lol
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 25, 2012 - 10:59am PT
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When leading we did augment our hip belays with a single non-locking biner on the leader side of the rope - completely bomb.
Steve: Except for getting to say "California" not much Hip about that belay.
Our experience on traveling was most people sucked at both hip belaying and stancing. They always had the rope up on their waist rather than down on their actual hips and that mistake alone makes for a painful and basically worthless belay. Most also didn't really 'get' the art of stancing as integral to belaying.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 25, 2012 - 11:47am PT
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There was a belay gadget made by MSR, in the early 1970s. A red anodized plate, about 2 x 8 x 10 cm. It had several holes in it, plus a screw/bolt tensioning adjuster, or something along those lines. IIRC, the idea was that you could thread the rope in various ways through the thing, and thereby create more or less friction. Beyond that, I don't remember how it was to be used, etc. It wouldn't surprise me if Larry Penberthy had seen early models of simple belay devices from Europe, and gone from there. Maybe the thing I saw was a prototype - somehow a teacher at my high school who was a hiker had gotten one. I never saw another one, or learned anything more about it.
In the mid-1970s, the English (at least) were sometimes using figure 8s (reversed) as belay devices.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
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My own belay rapel device progression from the late 60s on was hip belay/dulfersitz, Stitch plate/carabiner brake bar, figure 8/figure 8, tuber/tuber.
I remember using a chain link but didn't like them compared to Stitch plates even if they were much lighter.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 25, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
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A carabiner brake would make a reasonable belay device, though it might be a bit clumsy. Some of us used to do a hip belay where the rope would come down, go through a carabiner (e.g. on a Whillans harness), around your body, then back through the carabiner. Thus considerably increasing likely friction and control.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 25, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
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Well, I don't recall ever seeing a carabiner brake used for belaying, but did see them used for lowers and rescue purposes, where control was essential. Usually multiple rigs, sometimes with multiple brake bars etc. I've used a carabiner brake for rappelling with three and even four cross carabiners (i.e. 2 x 2 x 3 or 2 x 2 x 4), and with four across you can barely get the rope through, even using big ovals. The physics of the situation is much the same as any other belay 'device' - the more angles the rope goes through, and the tighter those angles, the greater the friction. And you never get full control with any belay device, except perhaps things like grigris. Pull hard enough and the rope will move, unless jammed or tied off elsewhere.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Nov 25, 2012 - 01:00pm PT
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Gary Storrick's website has an exhaustive list of belay devices (also ascenders, descenders) along with photos and information. He may have something about the history of prototype/early belay devices. The site is fun to check out, regardless. Just type in Gary Storrick on a search engine. I do remember one of the first 'Gunkies I met in the early '70s was using a simple metal link as an improvised Sticht plate, so the idea was around.
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mellpat
Big Wall climber
Sweden
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Nov 25, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
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The patent document for the Sticht belay plate is here http://tinyurl.com/cn36ynp
The patent, which covers only Germany, was applied for in 1969. The belay plate (invented by Fritz Sticht) caught on very rapidly and was in general use here in Sweden already in 1970.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Nov 25, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
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What about the "psychological belay"?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 25, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
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Thanks mellpat!
What configuration of plate appeared in the patent drawings? My guess would be single hole round.
Any recollection of plates or links before 1969 in your memory?
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mellpat
Big Wall climber
Sweden
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Nov 25, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
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Steve:
Click at "Mosaics" to the left in the link I gave and the patent drawings show up. The Sticht belay plate was the original belay plate and there was nothing of the kind before. I still have my plate as shown in fig.2 (single hole) but cannot find it right now.
edit: The variants with a spring to hold the plate away from the carabiner came later (also from Salewa) but weren't patented.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Nov 25, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
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It's impossible to imagine Dulfer or anyone else could have used the Garda hitch for belaying the leader---it only allows the belayer to take rope in, not feed it out. For the second maybe, although lowering would not be possible.
Although I haven't done any measurements, I have long experience rappelling with carabiner brakes and, much later, with modern tube-style devices and would say, on balance, that you could get as much and possibly more friction from the carabiner brake, especially remembering that the ropes at that time were 11mm. That said, no one I knew ever used them for belaying the leader because of the difficulty of paying out slack.
My first Sticht plate was just a rectangle with a slot and no spring. It now resides in Rock and Snow's little museum. I think the spring came later, and the patent document linked upthread seems to confirm that.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Nov 25, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
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this guy links the sticht invention to use of chain link on snub ropes in sailing:
Developed from a chain link used by old sailors as a snubber to a simple plate with slots by Fritz Sticht
http://www.climbargolis.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm
again, aside from rescue situations, it's tough to imagine a belay plate having any appeal until after the development and popularization of the hip belay. you weren't going to use a sticht plate with a shoulder belay which was the dominant belay in the Alps in Dulfer's age and well after.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 25, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
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Looks like the rectangular single hole probably hit the market first. I have one buried somewhere...LOL
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Nov 25, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
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Warbler, I also had a figure 8 in 1977 - not sure of before then - seems like it was a fairly recent acquisition for me then - may have been made by Clog - I still have that one and will track it down. I used it for that season for solo rapelling it seems safe in terms of heat dissipation. I was atracted to it because it was large - it was twice as large and massive as current 8s. Actually, I think it was twice as big as the 80s versions and probably 3 times the mass, at least, of current versions.
Looks like there's a pic of my Clog descender type over on the 'The first Purposeful Nut' thread.
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ec
climber
ca
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Nov 25, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
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ec
climber
ca
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Nov 25, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
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The old hip belay sure held LOTS of falls back in the day.
Oh, yeah...
 ec
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Nov 25, 2012 - 10:04pm PT
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All Of This Has Happened Before And Will Happen Again!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
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Storrick does a first rate job but it seems that he too is still trying to nail down dates of product origination.
I wonder if the figure eight was designed with clip ring belaying in mind. Using it as friction brake in normal rappel mode is certainly something they thought of in the design.
Since figure eights and Sticht plates show up at about the same time it would be fun to crawl around in these guys minds.
Anyone have the Clog catalog from 1970 or thereabouts? A catalog shot of the small ring in play would be definitive!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
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Anders- Why did you pull your post upthread?
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Jan 18, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
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Clog started in 1966 and there were already 8´s in use by then, there was one in bronze available in Chamonix at that time as one of my climbing mentors had one, probably Cassin but maybe Italian. Certainly the first one I´m aware of but it wasn´t used for belaying, the big Clog one was probably the first was used that way (I´ve still got mine lying around somewhere).
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2013 - 09:12pm PT
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Thank for the background Jim.
A date of 1966 would likely put the Clog or predecessor as the earliest belay device unless the Pierre Allain meathook descender had a configuration that could be used that way. I have never seen the instructions for the Pierre Allain and I don't own one to experiment with.
My catalog collection is poor but I have the Allain descender in a 1965 Eiger catalog.
The earliest belay device is likely to be a carabiner used with a Munter hitch but it is fun to try to line this all up in a verifiable way.
I wonder who invented the brake bar?
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Jan 19, 2013 - 03:38am PT
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The Sticht plate was popularised before the HMS, here´s a rough translation of an article about it all. It should be noted that it was written by a German-speaking Swiss from Constance who may not have been completely unbiased in who he thinks has the prior claim!
There are other articles with slightly different views.
"From the mid-60s it was realized from fall tests the need to replace the previously used static (fixed) belay methods by dynamic belaying (with controlled rope slip). At the end of 1967 Franz Ruso,(from Constance in Switzerland), proposed as the "braking carabiner loop" which is identical with modern Munter hitch belay method, but in the heat of the various other developments in rope brakes this was largely forgotten. The Sticht brake became the established method. Today we know that the brake loop (HMS) had been known as such for some time in mountain rescue where it is used for lowering of loads as wounded or material. The difference was Rusos idea to use this braking loop to belay partners in that the free end of the rope in hands of the belayer slides and is held back in the event of a fall by hand strength. It has been found that this belay quite ideally acts dynamically.
At the UIAA meetings in 1971 in Trento and a second time in 1973 Andermatt this belay method was demonstrated by the Italian delegation. It was only at the second congress it was accepted by the Commission and then as the "UIAA belay" recommended. It was the wish of the UIAA to publicise the new belay method without attatching the inventors name.
In some German-speaking countries, the term Munter hitch has prevailed. (Transl.Note: Not in the part of Germany I live in where HMS is the universal term.) At the UIAA meeting in Trento 1971, Werner Munter had shown a new backup method, which he called "karabiner-shoulder protection". He used the already known HMS, but to increase the braking force ran the free end of the rope around the shoulders. This made a dynamic belay impossible."
The article goes on with a discussion over the various claims and publicity particularly from Munters side about who invented what, in the competitive (and somewhat small-minded) world of Swiss and Italian Tirol mountaineering. From a modern point of view its all a bit childish!
Werner Munter is still around and recently retired from the Swiss avalanche laboratory.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Jan 19, 2013 - 03:54am PT
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Steve, is it what you have in mind...
The P.A. 77 descendeur hit the market in... 1977
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 19, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
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This page from the 1964 Eiger Company catalog shows the descender in question.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
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Does anyone have a Cassin or Clog figure eight bought around 1970 for show?
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wivanoff
Trad climber
CT
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Mar 15, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
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The MSR auto-belayer is the gadget I remember - http://storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevicesPage/Misc/AnchorBrakePages/AnchorBrake0877.html The web page says it's from the mid-1970s, and I definitely remember it from 1972/1973.
Yeah, I sent that to him in 2007 along with a photocopy of the instructions. I don't think I ever actually used the thing. Also, sent him a red anodized MSR "chainlink" belay plate.
I had used a figure 8 to belay TR on a Goldline. By the time I bought a kernmantel rope I had acquired a Stitch plate without the spring. Used several home made belay plates and a "Betta-Brake" for several years before the ATCs came along.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Mar 15, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
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A Sticht on 9 saves mine.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Mar 15, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
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^^^Looks just like mine Philo, how many times have you had that little "keeper" string get caught up and in the plate with the rope? That's why I got one with the spring.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Mar 15, 2013 - 04:04pm PT
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Steve, here's a pic of a Clog. I used this quite a bit in 77 and probably 75, but I can't nail down when I bought it or where.
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jaaan
Trad climber
Chamonix, France
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Mar 15, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
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Jim T mentions the big Clog fig 8 and McHale's has a photo of it just above this. Here's what the best dressed Brit was wearing in the Dolomites in 1972.
If you take a close look you'll see a bent wire fig 8 attached to his Whillans harness, rope running through it ready to rap or belay (I think...). No idea who made those... Jim?
Edit: Actually I lie, it's not a Whillans, it's a waist belt of some sort:
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
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Hey Dan,
Is the clip hole on your Clog 8 big enough to belay through it with a full diameter (11mm) rope?
I am trying to determine if belay duty was part of the design intent other than using it in reverse rappel mode as a brake.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Mar 15, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
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I don't think it was meant for that. It's difficult to put even a 10.8 loop through that hole. That's much easier to do with the CMI. The rope drags on itself even after it's through the Clog loop. It could be used for that in a pinch though.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2013 - 04:42pm PT
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Thanks Dan!
Somebody out there must have one of the original run of rectangular machined Sticht plates to show.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Mar 15, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
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Things have come a long ways.
The Simond Toucan.
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jaaan
Trad climber
Chamonix, France
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Mar 16, 2013 - 03:09pm PT
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Hey Carlos, that's just like my mate's fig 8.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Mar 16, 2013 - 03:57pm PT
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The Stitch Plate should still be on anyone's rack. You can literally do anything with that little sucker. Belay, rap, lower out, bail.
They have far better control than any of the tubular belay devices, which won't lock off if you need to.
Seriously. They are that useful and they weigh nothing.
Figure 8's always sucked. Anyone who uses them is a moron.
The caribiner brake should also still be taught, although it is hard to do with weird shapes or wire gates.
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carlos gallego
Ice climber
Spain
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Mar 16, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
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Hello, jaaan... yes I saw your photo and remembered my steel figure of eigth.
...another ones...
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Mar 16, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
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Figure 8 is too big and serves no good function. They tend to tangle ropes.
I'm telling you that I've done things with a stitch plate that now takes five devices to do.
Just a piece of metal with an oval cut into it. I've heard that you can use a chain link, but why?
Somebody bring them back and spread the word.
Notice that the figure 8 photos all look unused.
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carlos gallego
Ice climber
Spain
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Mar 16, 2013 - 04:46pm PT
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Hello, BASE104... you are right.
These pieces are of past times... I do not use them since many... many years ago, I just insert photo to see the "collection".
Nowadays there are other devices and, as you say, a plate should be in any rack... even as emergency kit only.
Of course there are modern devices to choose... depending of the climb to take.
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jaaan
Trad climber
Chamonix, France
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Mar 16, 2013 - 06:18pm PT
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You know Base, I've heard lots of folk say that 8s twist the rope, on this side of the pond too. I've never had that experience - or at least they haven't twisted my ropes more than other devices. For years in the 80s and 90s they were used as belay devices in 'rapid mode'. That is with the rope pulled through the big hole then simply clipped through the biner. Thinking back now from the safety of the Grigri I wonder how we ever survived!
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wivanoff
Trad climber
CT
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Mar 16, 2013 - 08:08pm PT
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The Stitch Plate should still be on anyone's rack. You can literally do anything with that little sucker. Belay, rap, lower out, bail.
They have far better control than any of the tubular belay devices, which won't lock off if you need to.
And they (non-spring version) are MUCH smoother with two oval carabiners opposite & opposed instead of one screwgate.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Mar 16, 2013 - 08:26pm PT
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The 8 is bulky and limited. Using the small hole to belay sucks, too.
The stitch plate, correctly without the spring as mentioned above, is way better than anything other than things such as the gri-gri. It is a hell of a lot cheaper, but not for sport climbing belays, I admit.
On trad or walls or alpine, you can do anything with those things. Does anyone make them anymore? They really are just as useful as knowing how to tie a prussick knot.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Mar 16, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
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tie a what?
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jaaan
Trad climber
Chamonix, France
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Mar 17, 2013 - 08:48am PT
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In about 1983 or 4 I can remember climbing a route in the Verdon called Rêve de Fer. As we were rapping down it to the start, there was a French guide coming up it with two clients. I watched his belaying technique with horror. He's simply passed his two ropes through a biner clipped to the belay and was just pulling the rope through it, his clients both climbing at the same time. Right on cue one of his clients fell off. He clamped the ropes below the biner tight with both hands and stopped the fall without too much difficulty, but of course until the person who'd fallen had regained the rock he couldn't do much for the other client who was still climbing... not ideal!
I bought the first of the 'magic plate' belay devices, the NewAlp Magic Plate in I'd say about 1990-ish. It was fantastic as I could belay two seconds at the same time (if I wanted to) and have hands free if I needed it to do other essentials, such as eating, reading the guidebook etc. If one of the seconds fell off I could still belay the other. The only downside was that these things were crap for rapping and you couldn't really belay a leader with it, and you couldn't really give slack with it very easily. This meant that I carried a belay plate (a DMM Betterbrake) as well. So when the Reverso appeared not too long back that could do all these things, I bought one immediately. However after a time the sheer effort of pulling rope through it in 'guide' mode made me abandon it in favour once more of the Magic Plate and Betterbrake.
For sport climbing I always use a Grigri (having abandoned the euro-death-rapid-eight). Having managed to forget to put it in my pack a few times recently I've taken to always carrying an old Sticht plate in the bottom of the pack as an emergency. It's a bit worn but works fine.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Mar 17, 2013 - 09:13am PT
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I have used biner break belays. Also there used to be a brake bar that could be put on the old smooth Ovals.
And yes 8s are just plain turds for standard belay's or rapping. I have used stitch plates but not enough that I ever got a liking for them. Too catchy for me. My personal favorite device has been the later square Lowe tubers. So easy to adjust proper friction and feed on everything from ice floss ropes to static.
Question though. In a pinch if I dropped or forgot a device or deliberately did not take one for weight bulk reasons. I much prefer a munter hitch for belaying or rapping versus a biner break. There are even ways to get bit more friction if needed on rappel by an extra spine wrap below the munter.
Any particular reason to learn the biner break? Vs a Munter? Am I overlooking something?
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mellpat
Big Wall climber
Sweden
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Mar 22, 2013 - 05:54am PT
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A picture of my original Sticht plate, the plate being obtained from Sporthaus Schuster in or about 1969.
The text on it reads "Sticht Seilbremse DBPa / SALEWA made in West Germany". DBPa is short for "patent pending in West Germany".
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2013 - 11:12am PT
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Melpat- Thanks for posting that early plate and background.
Could you show a shot of the back and side even though there is no markings present.
I suspect that yours was cast or die forged rather than machined but I would like to confirm that. There will be a casting mark at the midline if this plate was made that way
A machined version still likely predates the one shown and we might get lucky enough to see one if this thread persists long enough. Then again at 1969 with patent pending this may be the first production model.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 22, 2013 - 11:18am PT
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The 8 is bulky and limited.
It's the other way around.
The stitch plate is the limited one.
If you don't believe me we can go head to head you with the stitch plate and me with the Figure 8.
I will destroy your statement .....
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Mar 22, 2013 - 11:30am PT
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This is the oldest one I have. I believe it predates any double slotted Sticht plates
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mellpat
Big Wall climber
Sweden
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Could you show a shot of the back and side even though there is no markings present.
I suspect that yours was cast or die forged rather than machined but I would like to confirm that. There will be a casting mark at the midline if this plate was made that way
A machined version still likely predates the one shown and we might get lucky enough to see one if this thread persists long enough. Then again at 1969 with patent pending this may be the first production model.
The back is identical with the front but lacks text. Before "Sticht Seilbremse" it says "11 mm" as in the other shown above. The "11 mm" had partly worn away in mine. No casting marks can be seen and if originally cast it appears to have been machined afterwards. It is definitely the first production model in Europe. I know because in those years I got the yearly catalogue from Sporthaus Schuster and I also subscribed to the German magazine "Alpinismus" that held a test of the Sticht plate. Some manufacturer soon afterwards sold a "copy" just consisting of two (for redundancy) circular "rapell rings" taped together and attached to a small holding sling. Perhaps an attempt to circumvent the patent.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Carabiners, belay devices and more (Au Vieux Campeur 1972)
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2013 - 09:18pm PT
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Thanks mellpat and Marlow.
Machined it is! No point in casting that shape really but I had to ask about any telltale lines. Once the demand was established, drop forging becomes a cheaper production method.
Can you tell me when Jumars first showed up in the Sporthaus Schuster catalogs if you have a good selection.
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mellpat
Big Wall climber
Sweden
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Can you tell me when Jumars first showed up in the Sporthaus Schuster catalogs if you have a good selection.
Jumars were patented already in 1958 - see http://tinyurl.com/cpv945y
The production model for the first 20 years or so appears to be identical to that shown in the patent. Jumars seems to have been patented in just Austria and Switzerland.
I no longer have the old Schuster catalogs, but I recall that Jumars were used at Eiger Direct (Harlin route) in 1966, the year I started climbing.
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dustyrat
Trad climber
Leeds, West Yorkshire
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dustyrat
Trad climber
Leeds, West Yorkshire
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dustyrat
Trad climber
Leeds, West Yorkshire
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Was shown in brochure and referenced by Steve, way back on second page of this thread
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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The first belay link I saw was (I believe) an MSR/Larry Penberthy device. Joe Herbst used one when we climbed the Nose in '71. I was using a Stitch at the time, he extolled the virtues of his lighter/smaller system.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2013 - 03:04pm PT
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I think it's called a ZABROK! LOL
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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I imagine that the cost and ethical concerns of keeping and feeding a trained belay slave had something to do with the development of belay devices...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2013 - 09:15pm PT
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Going tubular was the next big step and another great Lowe innovation.
An early unmarked Lowe Tuber.
Along with a later snazzy French model.
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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May 27, 2013 - 12:06am PT
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When I first started climbing, my partner/mentor gave me a single slot, rectangular plate like the one shown in mellpat's photo upthread. I used it for years before upgrading to the spring version once they were available.
Always enjoy browsing these hardware threads...reminds me of how far we've come.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2014 - 04:14pm PT
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A few more snazzy French-made Tubers complete with splatter-resist anodization and with the cable loop intact.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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May 26, 2014 - 05:47pm PT
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Around 1972, when I got into climbing at the Gunks, hip belays were the order of the day. I have this vague recollection of having to take a test which involved catching a heavy sack full of sand or something. Then you could go climb (or maybe I dreamed that up. Who knows.) Anyway, leather shorts helped a lot. The first device I began using, was a figure 8, late 70s in the Adirondacks.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2014 - 04:06pm PT
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This is perhaps the last installment in the Lowe belay device story.
This device has a tiny sticker that says "R.O.K. PRODUCT".
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Jun 15, 2014 - 07:40pm PT
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I think figure 8's came in mid 70's. At least that's when I first started seeing them.
Hated them because they put permanent spiral kinks in the ropes.
My hockey puck/Spring Stitch has two holes. 1 nine mm, 1 11 mm
I used it for belaying double ropes and rappelling until the new dental floss ropes showed up.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jun 15, 2014 - 07:55pm PT
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My hockey puck/Spring Stitch has two holes. 1 nine mm, 1 11 mm
I used it for belaying double ropes until the new dental floss ropes showed up.
Best belay device for skinny ropes I know of was the Sirius from German company TRE. Too bad they stopped making it...
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Jun 15, 2014 - 08:07pm PT
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this thread is great. I'm trying -- and failing -- to imagine what Walter Bonatti used back in the day.
I started climbing in 1994 (20 years ago!? wow.) Even back then the only device I saw at the crags was an ATC. Never saw a Figure 8, except in a catalog, and which was immediately dismissed as a museum piece.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Jun 15, 2014 - 08:30pm PT
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Walter probably used what most of us of a certain age used. Hip belay. With a swami belt there was no good place to clip the belay device.
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Jun 16, 2014 - 08:29am PT
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Steve, those pictures ore of a prototype "square tuber" that I was working on with Greg Lowe in mid-1991. I left Lowe in December 1991 to start Trango and the people remaining at Lowe abandoned the project so I took it on at Trango where it was refined and became the Pyramid.
Malcolm
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 16, 2014 - 09:01am PT
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Thanks for the background, Malcolm.
Any idea what R.O.K. stands for?
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Ghoulwe
Trad climber
Spokane, WA
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Jun 16, 2014 - 10:12am PT
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R.O.K. = Republic of Korea. Country of Origin.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 16, 2014 - 10:41am PT
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Thanks!
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Bonatti, at his time, was known for using equipment from earlier times. He probably used a set-up of carabiners for self-belay. I have never been able to see any special belay devices among his equipment on photos.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Stitch Plates ruled. I remember getting an ATC and wishing that I still had the Stitch Plate without the spring.
You could do all kinds of stuff with that simple piece of gear. The tube devices couldn't lock off as well.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Klaus, what's with the bottle opener, or whatever that is? I must have
three Sticht plates, a double-niner, a nine/eleven, and a double-eleven
but I've never seen that sheet metal thingy. It looks after market.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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I didn't like the ones with the springs - just something to snag something
at an inopportune moment (KISS!), plus extra weight for an alpinist. ;-)
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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The future of the belay
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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A couple more not shown in this thread:
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Hip belays work fine. I held long leader falls with one and was held on a long leader fall by one. I still use them on long multi pitch climbs when the follower is on moderate terrain and I suspect he will be moving quickly.
I do get the occasional odd look when my partner arrives at the belay. I haven't lost anyone yet.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Pictures of devices, to follow, all are still Go to pieces that see action as often as any Grigri or Hip belay both of which I also use regularly.:``Below, Robots, these Work great! are the dental floss tamer'sMulti use,Above, Hauling, auto-block,mode.Below rap. mode these have both seen Miles of decent and hauling` The green was new in '97?= New and not nearly as versatile
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Interesting how the belay devices have evolved. I got into climbing in the mid 80's and I think my first belay device was a Lowe tuber, though I had a figure 8 before I got the tuber. Didn't really pay attention to when figure 8's disappeared from racks but seems into the mid 90's you'd see a mix of devices at the crags.
I'm with Donini on the the hip belay for a second on easy ground. I've never been able to yard in rope they way you can with a hip belay when using a belay device. Aside from the automated gizmo's I think I've used most variety of plates, tube, atc, munter hitch etc.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Oct 20, 2015 - 11:26am PT
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Jumar Pangit was a Swiss manufacturer located in Reichenbach, founded by Adolph Juesi and Walter Marti. Mr. Juesi was studying eagles for the Swiss government and needed to ascend on ropes in order to perform his work, so Mr. Marti developed the ascender for him. In 1958, they introduced the first jumar to the climbing market.
In 1982 I was in Europe on business. One weekend I drove to Reichenbach to meet Walter Marti, the designer and manufacturer of the Jumar ascender. Mr. Marti shared a great deal of information with me about his ascenders while his secretary, Mrs. Baumann, translated. Both Mr. Marti and Mrs. Baumann were very friendly. One of the most impressive things I learned during the visit was that there are many, many variations of Jumar that have not been put into commercial production. For example, I saw Jumar cams with the same "Z" shaped teeth found on the early Clog ascenders.
Gary D. Storrick
The best early Jumar website out there: http://www.storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevicesPage/AscenderDevices.shtml
I had the pleasure of buying this old tool from an American climber lately - a version of version D when I look at the Jumars on the website above.
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 20, 2015 - 04:47pm PT
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Won't need belay devices once Nanook is through.
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Tse
climber
Athens
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Hello guys.
I recently started a project regarding some gear and their history.
Does anyone happen to know when the first fig 8 developed and by whom or any piece of information about it?
i would be obliged.
thanks
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2015 - 11:07am PT
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Lots of good information on Gary Storrick's website.
http://storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevicesPage/VerticalHome.shtml
Gary doesn't provide hard dates but I believe that Clog was the first to commercially produce and market figure eight devices in the mid 1960's. JimT confirmed that time frame upthread.
I wonder if that evacuation system from 1885 ever went into production or service.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2016 - 03:11pm PT
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Wonder widget bump...
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Sep 25, 2016 - 01:59am PT
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Three later British plate brakes
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Sep 25, 2016 - 08:53am PT
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I was a hippy back then, so it was only right and proper to sneer at Sticht plates and use a hip belay. ~ Ghost
Made me smile. We used chain links some in England in '74. Body belays just make more sense sometimes and it's a useful skill.
"We don't need no stinking Sticht plates!"
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sep 25, 2016 - 02:57pm PT
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I have it on good authority that climbers active at the Needles (CA.) used chain-links as belay / rappel devices perhaps as early as the late 1950's. A gentleman who keeps a vacation home at Ponderosa showed me what was left of his old gear (not much) including the steel carabiner and large link for belaying.
He said they climbed summits they had to rappel off. Many spires can be climbed by easy 5th class routes. This was in the early - mid 1960s. He said his mentors were 20 years his senior and had been climbing there for some time before then. Of course there's no way to tell when they improvised the belay device, but I bet the old dulfersitz seemed a bit sketchy with the exposure that place can have.
Fred Becky, Dan McHale, and Mike Heath did the FA of the South Face Route on the Warlock in 1970. That's the biggest and most imposing feature of the Needles formations. In their AAJ entries both Becky and Heath mention the discovery of a cairn on top.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Sep 25, 2016 - 03:30pm PT
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While our technology has progressed in many other ways, imagine how much knowledge has been lost since these became less common:
Imagine the contraptions for tightening ropes, loosening them under load, suspending people and swinging them around, etc.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 25, 2016 - 03:44pm PT
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Does a Munter Hitch on a locker count?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sep 25, 2016 - 06:26pm PT
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https://store.mysticseaport.org/around-cape-horn-dvd-1028517.html
This is MUST SEE!!! No joke. In one section they're going around the horn, he's way up the main mast with his movie camera shooting down. The entire ship disappears in to the sea and then re-emerges as mammoth waves sweep across the decks.
The entire voyage of this last of the great clippers is epic.
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Barbarian
climber
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Sep 26, 2016 - 08:26am PT
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Figure 8's always sucked. Anyone who uses them is a moron.
Thanks for the compliment, BASE104.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 26, 2016 - 01:43pm PT
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I used to use the small end of the Figure 8 like a Sticht plate, worked great!
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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Sep 26, 2016 - 04:03pm PT
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I agree about using the small hole in a figure 8 like a sticht. It worked fine. And you could wrap the rope around the stem between the holes to effortlessly hold a hanging climber.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Figure 8's were big, heavy, and made more for rapeller's than anything else. I don't mean to call anyone personally a moron, but I never saw a good climber with one on his or hers rack.
Yeah, you could use the small hole as a belay device, but the simple Stitch Plate was built for that, and totally rocked. The big hole was for 11 mils, and the small hole was for 9 mils. You could even use them with a doubled 9 mil, which the Brits used to like doing.
I didn't like the ones with a spring. The simple plate was excellent for belaying, rapping, lowering out haulbags, you name it. It was super simple and cheap.
I had to bail from the Shield Headwall in a storm once. This required down nailing and a lot of frigging with the haul bag. All we used was a stitch plate, and we made it from the base of the Groove pitch to the ground in about 5 hours.
In the Alps, we used a stitch plate.
I can't stand the tubular belay devices. They don't lock off like a stitch plate will.
Of course now, a gri-gri totally rocks, but back when, the stitch plate was simple and perfect.
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gdstorrick
Trad climber
PA
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Feb 22, 2017 - 05:55am PT
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>> Lots of good information on Gary Storrick's website.
>> http://storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevicesPage/VerticalHome.shtml
>> Gary doesn't provide hard dates...
Actually, there is a tiny bit of information on my Figure Eights Page:
http://storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevicesPage/Rappel/Figure8.html
> According to Pit Schubert (Bergunsteigen 3/06), the figure eight was invented by Dr. Max Pfrimmer, a physician who worked with the mountain troopers medical corps in St. Johann, Tirol, Austria, during WWII. Pfrimmer documented his idea for a lowering device in his diary on October 1, 1943. Only in the latter 1950s did Pfrimmer consider using his eight for rappelling. Pfrimmer offered his idea to Schuster’s sports equipment store in Munich, which commercialized the eight in the early 1960s, but without success. The CMI Standard, introduced in 1974, was a major commercial advance, and it established the future of eights in the USA. It is still in production.
> The earliest figure eight that I own is the Fisher, Version A, which appeared in an advertisement in the June 1963 issue of Mountain Craft. The earliest figure eight appearing in the USA that I know of was one was sold for $3.50 in an Adirondack climbing shop in the Summer of 1965 (Bill Craig, Nittany Grotto News, XIV,1, pp.4-5). That eight was made in West Germany, welded from 1/4" [6 mm.] steel rod, was 140 mm. long, and had hole and eye internal diameters of 47 and 35 mm., respectively. This was probably the Schuster’s eight, and it may also be the same as Black's - the dimensions are similar. Various people used eights after that, but it wasn't until after CMI introduced their hard-coated eight, which I first saw advertised in the October 1974 issue of Off Belay magazine, that the popularity of the eight took off in the USA.
Naturally, I'm a bit interested in getting more information
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2017 - 09:32am PT
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Gary- Thanks for joining the discussion here.
Please accept my apology about the comment on the lack of dates in reference to the history of the figure eight. I didn't catch those citations on my first pass through your content. The Clog figure eight wasn't widely imported in the US so your assessment about the impact of the CMI version rings true with me. I need to go and talk with Gregg Blomberg about his work with CMI.
Have you ever talked with Pete Gibbs about the development of his ascender design? Pete spoke at a historical symposium that I recently organized about climbing in the Grand Canyon so I have good contact information for him.
You might find this thread interesting.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2931481/Who-Popularized-The-Carabiner-Brake-Rappel
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Feb 22, 2017 - 09:48am PT
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2017 - 08:28pm PT
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Such a dainty piece of gear. No belaying off of that goodie.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 25, 2017 - 10:05am PT
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A gal named Charlie has posed the question of why the Sticht plate was relatively slow to gain popularity in the US in the early 1970s. What do you folks think?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 25, 2017 - 04:49pm PT
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As Mark said, we didn't trust any belay device and basically didn't get the need.
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Old one
Trad climber
Columbus, OH
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Jan 24, 2018 - 12:09pm PT
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I started climbing in 1975, and I recall sticht plates coming into use in the last half of the ‘70s.
An earlier version, and my first belay device, was a sticht link. Basically an aluminum chain link. It was prone to sliding too far up the rope and to locking up unintentionally, but it stopped falls pretty effectively. My partner weighed 230 to my 120. I appreciated the help.
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