Runners! Need a shoe recommendation!

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Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 21, 2012 - 06:28am PT
I'm in the market for a great running shoe and need suggestions. I'm not looking for a cross-trainer type shoe....I need the best, most comfortable shoe to do some serious pavement pounding....price is not an issue.

Suggestions?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:07am PT
Comfort to most means support. Support can seriously mess you up if you get the pronation thing wrong.

Better to go to a minimalist shoe, imho, like Merrell and develop good running technique.
locker

Social climber
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:10am PT


"Suggestions? "...

Yes...

But I don't think you're going to like it...
































































KIDDING!!!...

LOL!!!...

;-)

handsome B

Gym climber
SL,UT
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:13am PT
Comfort? On pavement?

No shoe at all.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:16am PT
Brooks Beast...great shoe with wonderful support.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:16am PT
Before the hip started to go and I ran regularly, I had the best luck with Asics, then New Balance second for durability.

The Nikes always started out comfy but beat flat and fell apart the quickest.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:16am PT
Five fingers
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:16am PT
Pavement pounding is hard on your body, and since you are a climber you are much more top-heavy than your average runner. If you're doing more than 3 days a week and more than 20 miles a week I would look into something like Innov8 or an even more minimalist shoe - and change the way you run a little bit. Traditional jogging is terrible for your body, but if that's what you like then keep on at it... I switched over 2 years ago to more minimalist footwear but also a better/healthier stride and can now run 7 days a week, where as before my knees/shin splints/spine wouldn't allow any more than 3 or 4.
locker

Social climber
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:18am PT


Hey Dean...

"and change the way you run a little bit"...

You're going to have to make some MAJOR changes dude...

LOL!!!...

matty

Trad climber
under the sea
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:20am PT
For my trail running I like the asics, but it really depends on your foot. try em on and get what feels best...like climbing shoes! dunno about the minimalist deal as I've never tried it but seems like it's worth a shot.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:20am PT
Dean, I'm real tight with money generally, but this is one case where you need to loosen up your wallet and go to a specialized local running shoe store and spend the $. Maybe check out a couple and go where you feel you get the most bang for your buck. Furthermore, if they recommend custom molded insoles, just buy them. I bought 2 pairs for my wife when she decided to train to run the marathon: and it was damned expensive (got the deal 2 for the price of one =$150.00), but less than any medical bill that would have followed.

Good luck!
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2012 - 07:21am PT
I won't skimp....gotta find the best system money can buy.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:27am PT
I've been running since 1969. I don't think which shoe you wear (if any) matters that much. Last week I did about 50. I seldom take a day off.

Leg strength has been the key to my running longevity. The only running injury I've ever had is Achilles tendonitis, which can be prevented (and rehabbed) by exercise (Am J Sports Med 1998 May;26(3):360-366).


Do leg presses and run hills. I met a guy at the Carlsbad marathon who'd been running on pavement barefoot for years.



eKat

Trad climber
BackInTheDitch BackInTheDirt BackInTheDay
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:29am PT
If you're a New Balance foot. . . check out the 1540s. . . I'm sportin' them, these days, and they ROCK!

http://www.newbalance.com/New-Balance-1540/M1540,default,pd.html

Credit: FromGOOG (rhymes with spooge)
roadman

climber
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:30am PT
Brooks are great.
Don't let anyone fool u into going down that minimalist crap. It's a fad and has nothing to do with running.
Mike Friedrichs

Sport climber
City of Salt
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:36am PT
It's not a fad. I've only run in five fingers for over two years. The tightness in my lower back is gone. My knees feel much better after a run. Read Born to Run and make an informed decision. More expensive shoes result in more impact. Arch support makes for weak arches. It's common sense.
Silver

Gym climber
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:38am PT
Dean ill call the Lithuanian who used to post here until he started running ultra marathons.

Dalius ran a marathon without training in 3: 09

He has since run something like 10 100 mile plus races.

Ill see what he recommends as well.


Hope you are well my friend.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:40am PT
I won't skimp....gotta find the best system money can buy.


Man... this is completely the wrong way to look at footwear.

None of us have seen you run, ever, so making an assessment of what you need is rediculous. It's like asking a doctor "I don't feel right, I'll take the best medicine you got. Price is no option."

Go to the local shop (there are several I'm sure on the East Side) and have THEM tell you - the older the guy working there, the better. I think the one in Bishop should be one of the better guys around, for a looong ways.

Your body is worth it - trust me.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:42am PT
I agree with zBrown. The running shoe industry is a scam. My running is also plagued by shin splints, but the solution for me isnt different shoes. It's to stop running and use a stationary bike or some other aerobic equipment at the gym until the shin splints are gone. Then alternate running and biking for a while. Mentally you may be able to ramp up your mileage very fast but your body can't do it, and its easy to overtrain. Slow and steady wins the race, your training program should be over a period of years, not one of the 3 month marathon programs. Those put me on the couch every time.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:45am PT
Are marathons the new Everest?
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:46am PT
Best shoe? No such thing. No one can recommend a specific shoe without seeing your feet and watching you run. Don't spend a load of money unless it truly is the best shoe for you. Sometimes the $70 shoe is much better for an individual than the $150 shoe. Sometimes it is the opposite.

sullly

Trad climber
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:47am PT
I worked in a running store for a year BITD. I'd go to a specialty running store where the clerk can watch you run. She'll look at your foot strike, whether you pronate or supinate and at your body weight. I prefer Sauconey and Asics myself.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2012 - 07:53am PT
I'll be in Reno next week and will check in with the running shoe department at Scheels and also go to Eclipse. Thanks for the info, all!
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:54am PT
The best answer you will find here is the answer that tells you that you cannot find the best answer here.

Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:55am PT
Oh yeah, Marathons, Black Belt in Karate, Mount Everest, what other life goal do you want to buy? You can take a crash course in marathon training, supposedly in 3 months off the couch you can do it. Also for your first marathon, there is actually a downhill marathon in Pennsylvania.

The Pike's Peak one looks hard, the most scenic one looks like the Mt Rushmore marathon, or maybe the rim to rim in the grand canyon. I'm just name dropping, I never could go 26 miles and get injured every time I try to train for that.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:58am PT
All good goals, but certainly seem weird when pushed through a climbers filter @.@
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2012 - 07:59am PT
Not interested in "buying" a marathon, 10k, 5k...or any of that. Just want to begin a running training regimen, and want a decent shoe.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 21, 2012 - 08:09am PT
More important than the shoe, buy and read the book Chi running.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/s/ref=is_box_?k=Chi+running

So I've done 48 Everests, GDavis?
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Nov 21, 2012 - 08:13am PT
The barefoot/minimalist fad is bs. Going running right now on the WST near Auburn and will be wearing Hoka One One Bondi B's. Great shoe for road or trail, and for running right after long races I wear the Hoka Mafates. Everyone else is right too though, try lots, and find some you like...

Jaybro edit: Jay, I checked out your 48 everests on Ultrasignup. Nice running man!
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 21, 2012 - 08:14am PT
What I meant by that was, a fringe sport/activity that is the arena of extreme discipline that gets marketed to the masses, for all the wrong reasons.


Being a black belt, climbing Everest, doing a marathon - rock climbing. I started off in a gym during the gym climbing craze, and was the typical gumby climber. There are shitloads of gumby marathoners, everest summitters and black belts who got into it for weird reasons (or the wrong reasons altogether) but tons of people are like me, who discover what those sports really are and what they really can give to my life and improve it. Just like rock climbing for GDavis, maybe a marathon for a soccer mom in Tallahasee can be that enlightening experience of ennui.

Don't mean a buncha dorks aren't riding a bandwagon and I can't hate on it a lil bit ;D
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Nov 21, 2012 - 08:22am PT
Look here Cragz,

http://www.eastbay.com/Mens/Running/Shoes/Performance-Running-Shoes/_-_/N-1pZ1dwZneZco?cm_REF=Performance+Running+Shoes
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 21, 2012 - 08:26am PT
I thought that was what you meant G. Sorta like racquetball was in the 70's or triathons in the 80's....
SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Nov 21, 2012 - 08:28am PT
For men, I've heard Brooks Beast...as someone has mentioned.
However, I would recommend go to a running specific store and get fitted specifically to you. I've run alot all my life and could fit myself. ONce I hit 50, game off, my feet had changed alot, and shoes I would not have even considered were recommended by a fitter. Couldn't believe the difference, I could run again!

You may wish to consider different trail shoes than pavement shoes if you are running on both. And oh yeah, my newest toy....a reasonably priced GPS watch. I've always run with a heart rate monitor but decided to go even more high tech. They've come down in price as gadgets always do!

Run on,
Susan

Garmin Forerunner 110...great price, good reviews.
HeartRateMonitorsUSA has the best prices on Heart Rate Monitors and ga...
HeartRateMonitorsUSA has the best prices on Heart Rate Monitors and gadgets like this. Enjoy your runs!
Credit: SCseagoat







couchmaster

climber
pdx
Nov 21, 2012 - 08:34am PT
I'm not a runner, but get it vicariously as my little brothers been going nuts on it. He's run marathons on every continent (yes, including Antarctica) - has run about 30 this year so far, and is on track to have run one in every state including Boston and NY. He's not a spring chicken at over 50 years old now, and says that the first one was the hardest. He'll fly out and do back to back marathons on a weekend in 2 different states, fly back and be a work Monday and still workout in the evenings at 24 hour fitness with me. He's in Cuba running one now but will be back for Thanksgiving. He may be back now. Crazy.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 21, 2012 - 08:35am PT
Abebe Bikila won the 1960 Rome Olympics Marathon running barefoot....have you considered that option?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 21, 2012 - 08:49am PT
NO donini, barefoot running is just BS. No one ran before EVA.


Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2012 - 08:50am PT
I don't go barefoot at home...let alone running outside!
sullly

Trad climber
Nov 21, 2012 - 08:54am PT
Donini, barefoot Zola Budd caused Mary Decker to fall in another Olympics. So much for barefoot running.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 21, 2012 - 08:55am PT
Makes ya tuff, fer ice climbin' !
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Nov 21, 2012 - 09:06am PT
There's a spectrum of variation in runner gait and stride so at the end of the day it is what works for you. For mixed trails and some pavement I run in a La Sportiva Wildcat (REI). For just trails I worked myself down to the Montrail Rouge Racer. As my body been able to take up the slack to a more minimal shoe (Racer) I've come to prefer it; but when I started back up running alot in 2011, I preferred the Wildcat. You might want to ease yourself into a minimal shoe alternating days between a more classic supported shoe.
If you are just going to run on pavement (and given that you live in Mammoth-I'd ask why) there's ton's of shoe choices. Currently have a pair of Muzuno but I don't know if I prferer that to Brooks or New Balance.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 21, 2012 - 09:12am PT
Trails are a bit white this upcoming season in Mammoth, lol.
BruceAnderson

Social climber
Los Angeles currently St. Antonin, France
Nov 21, 2012 - 09:17am PT
If you're trail running at least give Salomons a look. I'm on a second pair of Speedcross's and they're pretty near perfect for me.
murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Nov 21, 2012 - 09:18am PT
Go to an actual running store that stocks lots of different shoes. But don't listen to their advice, which is as likely as not to be based on discredited exerscience. Last I read, for instance, the whole "over-pronation" thing---prescribing particular kinds of shoe based on watching your feet twist while running---has not been shown to have any benefit at all.

http://www.runblogger.com/2012/10/do-runners-know-their-arch-height-and.html

Just insist on trying a lot of different shoes and see which feel the most comfortable running (not just walking around the store). Bring the kind of socks you will actually wear running, and remember that your feet swell when running, so err on the side of large.

And do listen to Don Paul's advice: let your body get used to the shoes and to running very gradually, with lots of rest days.
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Nov 21, 2012 - 09:20am PT
Fivefingers. Trek sport for slightly rougher terrain (thicker padding also makes these my go to shoe for pavement), Bikila for ultimate frisbee and around the office. My feet end up a little more sore than in a normal pair of shoes, but my knee stopped hurting all together, which is a very easy tradeoff for me. My knee was steadily going downhill in normal running shoes, and completely settling down over the first 4-5 months using the fivefingers (and stayed good for the last 6 months).

Plenty of last years colors can be had for $60-80 a pair. Stock up once you have the sizing and models dialed in.

Also, shoe go is your friend to extend their life. Watch for wear spots and beef those spots up early and often. Thin sensitive soles wear out faster than normal shoes.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Nov 21, 2012 - 09:25am PT

USE PROMO CODE EMEB2V63 AT CHECKOUT FOR $25.00 OFF

ON YOUR ORDER OF $99 OR MORE AT EASTBAY.COM
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Nov 21, 2012 - 09:35am PT
I don't go barefoot at home...let alone running outside!

I'm not much of a runner in the sense of "pounding pavement." I do enjoy covering terrain quickly, and my shoe of choice is the Salomon XT wings.

I cannot say enough about the value of going barefoot as much as possible. Not necessarily for running but just as a general practice. Your feet will be stronger, your proprioception and balance will benefit and your posture will respond well too. Just don't curse me out the first few times you stub a toe, there is a learning curve...
adrian korosec

climber
Tucson
Nov 21, 2012 - 09:41am PT
Don't get fooled into the Five Finger craze or minimalist thing either. Go to a good running store that has a treadmill and maybe even video system so they can analyze your gait. They will then recommend the proper shoe options (stability v cushioning etc). IF you eventually want to go minimalist, you MUST go slow and easy into it. Get a trad shoe first for sure.

This is the best advice.
sullly

Trad climber
Nov 21, 2012 - 09:41am PT
I disagree with Murcy. I pronated and got stress fractures (metatarsals) as a result. I ended up always going with a heavier shoe with beefy treads on the sides. Doing the same milage (70+ a week in my 20's) I wasn't injured again. I'd get new shoes every three months when the outer treads wore down.

Several running shop owners here in the Bay Area - Ryan's Santa Clara and Runners' Factory Los Gatos - watch their customer run and recommend the shoe. These men have coached top runners for years and make valid shoe assessments.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Nov 21, 2012 - 09:45am PT
Here's one theory of why humans are natural runners - we evolved from pack hunters like jackals. He explains the deal with running shoes at the end.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Nov 21, 2012 - 09:48am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#274910
10b4me

Boulder climber
member since 2002
Nov 21, 2012 - 09:49am PT
Not a runner anymore, and I won't recommend a specific shoe, but when I ran, I preferred the Asics brand.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2012 - 09:51am PT
10b4me, I am hearing great things about Asics.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Nov 21, 2012 - 10:05am PT
Before weighin in on the barefoot/shoe debate, I'd second what sullly said. You need to figure out what kind of runner you are--over pronator/under pronator, heel/midfoot striker, etc.--and take it from there. Then, like climbing shoes, it comes down to fit. I like Asics and Brooks for my feet, but then I tried a pair of Adidas trail shoes and really like those. New Balance makes greats shoes but feel like shoe boxes on my feet. You gotta try them out.

Barefoot running is not BS. Humans gained an evolutionary advantage by being long distance runners and being able to run great distances stalking prey and chasing wounded prey. All of this was done barefoot. The Taramuhara indians of Copper Canyon run 50-100 miles in a pair of huaraches. They don't get shin splints, runner's knee or any of those other problems that runners do who wear well cushioned shoes.

Does that mean you have to run barefoot or get injured? No. Lots of folks put in lots of miles and have no problems. However, others aren't so lucky. Hopefully you're the former.

I did develop runner's knee (though not from running) and have been able to run again mostly by imitating barefoot running--short strides, striking mid-foot or on the balls of my feet, etc. Totally different than how I used to run--long strides, heel striking, etc. I run alot slower that way, but I can get out and have fun without the pain.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 21, 2012 - 10:06am PT
Something in a nice plaid, perhaps? To match your PJs.
Credit: Mighty Hiker
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2012 - 10:15am PT
Those aren't mine, Anders....I don't know where those are now!
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Nov 21, 2012 - 10:19am PT
Navy Seals train in boots. Way back (when they were called the UDT (underwater demolition team) they used to run from Imperial Beach to Coronado and back in boots that looked like they weighed ten pounds. I believe they switched to fins when actually in the water.







Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2012 - 10:23am PT
zBrown...I'm more like a Navy slug.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 21, 2012 - 10:26am PT
Dean...Buy something other than a racing flat..something that won't let a rock bruise the bottom of your foot...Maybe start out with the asics trail runner...? If you run on pavement , you gotta get a speedo...RJ
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 21, 2012 - 10:31am PT
On second thought , you might want a racing flat in case another bear gets in your house...? RJ
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Nov 21, 2012 - 10:43am PT
US Army Airborne used to do their runs in boots way BITD...but they eventually switched to running shoes because too many soldiers were injuring their knees.

Sometimes smart is better than tough.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 21, 2012 - 10:44am PT
John M

climber
Nov 21, 2012 - 11:08am PT
I got pretty lucky with running. No major problems. I use to run 5 to 10 miles a day 7 days a week. I ran many long distance runs. In the 25 mile range. I ran in the cheapest hiking boots Hi-Tec made. The ones you could get at costco for 10 dollars. They are basically tennis shoes with a hiking tread. Now you can find them for about 25 to 30 dollars. I ran trails and pavement. I have bad ankles, so the mid high gave me enough ankle support that I didn't injure them. Just to be clear, I did not start out running 7 days a week. I did 3 and 4 days a week at th beginning, which leads into some of my advice.

Dean, I am aware that you didn't really ask for this advice, but I just want to share this.


1. Run more trails then pavement if you can.

2. Start slowly. Very slowly with short distances. Don't go out and run as far as you physically can your first day. If you think you could run 3 miles on your first day, then keep it down to 1 mile. And don't run every day until you have built up the muscles, and tendons. Just Like you had to build up to having strong finger tendons for climbing, you need to build into running. You are probably very fit, but I wouldn't go run 5 miles a day just because you are already fairly fit and you could push yourself to do it. Your body needs time to adjust to the pounding. If you have a stationary bike, then go run a mile, come home and get on the bike to get the miles you need. This will give your body time to adjust.

3. Run on grass if you can. Use the local golf course or one of the local schools, if you have one. I know that you don't probably have that option living in June lake, but this is just general information for other people wanting to start running.

4.This is my own opinion and I have not talked to any experts about it, but I have given this advice to a number of people who never ran regularly before and they seemed to benefit from it. What you do is Vary your speed. It causes you to change your stride and that seems to help avoid repetitive injuries. Don't do full speed sprints until you have been running for awhile, and don't do full speed on pavement. Use slow slow speeds to warm up, then a moderate speed for a minute, then slow again until you regain your breath, and then maybe a slightly faster speed then your last moderate speed, then back to slow slow, and so forth. I definitely do not recommend full speed sprints on pavement.

I never knew about pronation and all that stuff. I guess I got lucky in that respect. I stopped running for other health reasons.

this just in

climber
north fork
Nov 21, 2012 - 11:17am PT
Go to a running shoe store and try some on. It's the same as buying climbing shoes each company is different.
QITNL

climber
Nov 21, 2012 - 11:21am PT
Nike Free
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Nov 21, 2012 - 11:47am PT
I watch all these folks running on the street in my neighborhood. Keep in mind that the streets are crowned slightly for drainage. They run a couple of miles in one direction on one side of the street, then back the other way on the other side, so every step they take is lopsided the same way.

And they wonder why their SI joint is all out of whack...

I don't know about this idea that we're designed to run fast for long distances. Some of us can, but I prefer to move quickly (not what most people would call running) with occasional flat out sprints thrown in.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Nov 21, 2012 - 11:51am PT
Ugh, pavement pounding.... Masochism is what that is. I've run marathon distance four times on the pavement in my life and that is four times too many. Pavement's made for wheels, man, and you're getting too old to subject your musculoskeletal system to that sh#t. Ride your bike on the pavement, run on more forgiving surfaces.

Find a good knee guy if you must persist.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Nov 21, 2012 - 11:51am PT
some folks are always pushing the limits:

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 21, 2012 - 11:51am PT
I recommend going to a running store. They are very good at finding a 'support' shoe to make it easy to keep your crappy mechanics.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Nov 21, 2012 - 11:52am PT
There is a lot of scientific evidence that humans evolved to run. We are perhaps the best distance-runners in the animal kingdom:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/27/health/27well.html?_r=0

Sitting in front of a computer all day doesn't help though...
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2012 - 11:53am PT
John M, some good tips there, and my thoughts exactly on the trails/grass thing. I will do that until the snow dictates otherwise, then on to the pavement.

I plan on starting slow too.....my goal to be getting to 4/5 miles a day by next spring.....with the occasional 8 to 10 mile run by then too.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
Good luck. If there's a sport more about pointless numbers than climbing, it's running. You'll easily injure yourself over those numbers if you aren't careful. Listen to your body, you aren't anything in the world of running, so don't hurt yourself over nothing.

If your mind says 10 and your body says 2, I'd pick what your body is saying. Too easy to get locked into those training programs that have nothing to do with your health. Trust me.
Friedo

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
I'm all about MONTRAIL! Great on road and trail!
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
RJ, you sure have a thing with underwear.....ever since I shot that pic of you on the job that day....



photo not found
Missing photo ID#179998
BuddhaStalin

climber
Truckee, CA
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
I dont run pavement, and everyones needs and fits are so different. There are two really good running stores in Reno, they will analyze your foot strike and other variables so you can learn about your own mechanics and physiology. Then you can make a better shoe choice. I imagine its more important with nonforgiving pavement. One store is Eclipse Running, forgot the other one but google knows....Eclipse lets you try em on and gofor a trot around their parking lot in them.
John M

climber
Nov 21, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
my goal to be getting to 4/5 miles a day by next spring

Oh.. you plan to run this winter.. then I would add these. heh heh

Credit: John M

Add the PJs and the Beretta and you should be good to go. :-)
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
I have the treadmill for the gnar winter days. :D

I'll be heading to Eclipse Running in Reno on Monday morning. It's right down the street from my project!

EDIT: No, the Beretta is too heavy....I'll stick with a matching pair of Walther PPK's.....even out the balance.

:D
BuddhaStalin

climber
Truckee, CA
Nov 21, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
Nice. Hopefully Eclipse's owner guy will be working that day, otherwise there are some younger folks who work there too, try to find the 40ish guy, blond hair i think, youll know when you see him, obvious marathon type guy. The other running store in Reno is supposed to be better, newer. Havent been to it, but you should have a look for it. They have some foot strike analyzer machine thing. You can run around in the lot in their shoes to try them out too.
Sewellymon

climber
.....in a single wide......
Nov 21, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
Dean- I've had several pairs of Salomans in the past 5 years but switched to the below La Sportiva Wildcat that I like a LOT. I'll be buying a 2nd pair soon. I also now use them for light backpacking..

One word of advice. Whatever you get, get 'em a 1/2 size larger? Seems my feet just grow and grow as I get older and more rotund. Trail running downhill toes get mashed until you have extra room. Ditto long hikes. Feet swell.

Credit: Sewellymon
BuddhaStalin

climber
Truckee, CA
Nov 21, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
Boom. Reno Running Co. in the Summit Sierra mall, right off the new freeway. Dunno if youve gone thru there yet, but its awesome not having to drive all the way thru carson. Takes so much less gas.

Go to the new sierra trading post, next to wholefoods. They have way more stuff than they ever had. They have some sportiva shoes too, a couple kinds.

La Sportiva makes better running shoes these days than climbing shoes. Fit is really good for my foot and splits the nearly 3/4 size difference between my feet pretty well. I got some of those trendy mushy sole quantums, shoes great, sole is stupid, my new work shoes, they were lame to run in. $65 at sierra trading post.

Ive been using Saucony Guide Tr3's since they were just TR's, fifth pair. Best fit for my foot anymore. NB, Asics used to both fit well, but havent fit one well in several years. Used adidas for years, but they dont make good shoes anymore. I cant find a brooks trail shoe that fits me well, Cascadias were not it. Love brooks, but their trail shoe lineup doesnt have anything for me now.

Granted I use trail shoes and youre after cushion/road shoes, you will have so damn many options, youll find a good match.
John M

climber
Nov 21, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
The more I think about the winters over there the more I think you should get yourself a groomer and find some dirt roads to groom for skate skiing. Its way easier on your knees and you would be doing a community service. Plus once you get fast its way more fun then running. That or doing some cross country skiing. You will get in shape. There isn't much doubt about that.
divad

Trad climber
wmass
Nov 21, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
Not gonna read the whole thread so this may be an echo, but.. no runner finds the perfect shoe on the first try, takes many miles and many shoes to do that. Go to a runner's shop where the sales people are actual runners.

Of course, if you're just looking to build up an appetite for Thanksgiving, get whatever looks good...
BuddhaStalin

climber
Truckee, CA
Nov 21, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
Ski over here and groom my driveway!
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 21, 2012 - 07:53pm PT
I think your plan sounds, sound, Dean. The guy who owns eclipse knows his stuff. That's where I used to buy running shoes when I lived in Reno
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Nov 21, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
Out of curiosity, why are you gonna start pounding the pavement?

If you can get over the boredom factor (a very high hurdle), then buying and using an elliptical machine is probably better for you all-around healthwise.
Ezra Ellis

Trad climber
WA, & NC & Idaho
Nov 21, 2012 - 08:13pm PT
Asics GT 2170 or 2160 or 2150, get last years model, they are much cheaper. Lots of very high mileage runners prefer asics gel.

best of luck
-e
murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Nov 21, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
Heh, I think they started with GT2000s, back in 1996. I got some 2020s in '98 and loved them so much I bought a crate of them. Still have a couple of pair here, good for yardwork but miled out.

Dean, think about running shoes like you would about climbing shoes. Would it really make sense to tell someone to buy La Sportiva for sure? Definitely get the Anasazis? Adidas, Asics, Brooks, Nike, Saucony, etc., etc., make good shoes. Run in them and see what you like.

And sullly is totallly wrong. :)
Jon Freriks

Trad climber
AZ
Nov 21, 2012 - 08:55pm PT
"Asics GT 2170 or 2160 or 2150, get last years model, they are much cheaper. Lots of very high mileage runners prefer asics gel."

I think this is really good advise!

Recently I have been running in Ascis Kayano, pretty expensive if you do not shop around (I purchased my last pair for $80 with discount and coupons).

I always make sure I can fit at least my thumb width between the end of my big toe and the front of the shoe, usually a little more.

I was never an Adidas fan, however my son runs 100+ a week in Adidas.

Jon
T H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Nov 21, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
I once did the complete june lake loop, and to Waugh Lake and back. The Yost trail is good one, right there in town.
BuddhaStalin

climber
Truckee, CA
Nov 22, 2012 - 03:33am PT
All those asics shoes are good suggestions, provided they fit you well. The saucony's im using have stayed consistent with their fit for longer than any shoe ive used in the last 10 years. 5 pairs in 4 years. Saucony is great, people forget about them, theyre sleepers. Go to eclipse and running co and try on everything that seems remotely applicable, even the ass ugly ones. Usually murphys law steps in and makes the most ugly bright color euro shoes the best fit.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Nov 22, 2012 - 03:42am PT
I ran in Asics Cumulus and Kayanos but have switched to Brooks Pure Flows for the shorter distances and Nike Lunarglides for longer.

I sometime read the running forums, pick out 3 shoes that sound interesting, go to my LRS, try them on the treadmill there. I know right away which one is right.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2012 - 04:13am PT
Lots of great advice here.....thanks ALL!

I'll let ya know what I end up with next week.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 22, 2012 - 07:27am PT
Funny you say that Z, why just yesterday, during hike two, watching the sunset at delicate arch, my hiking companion said. "it's so good to be out here. A great workout, and way better than a fukcing elliptical!"
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 22, 2012 - 07:40am PT
Cragman....I was wearing my framing thong that day..It gives me support where and when i need it...RJ
10b4me

Boulder climber
member since 2002
Nov 22, 2012 - 08:35am PT
If you can get over the boredom factor (a very high hurdle), then buying and using an elliptical machine is probably better for you all-around healthwise.

I've heard those are not good for the knees.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Nov 23, 2012 - 11:35am PT
Elliptical bad on knees? I was told by chiropractor and orthopedist the opposite. The ortho is an ex runner who only does elliptical now.

While my torn meniscus was acting up I could do e-machine without pain, could not run.

As far as sunsets and all, that's another big hurdle that is unlikely to ever be surmounted.

However, could ya see Steve McKinney (RIP) at sunset on top of a e-mach on top of a porche whipping around the mountains @ 120mph.

BTW, I think the land speed record out at Bonneville is 457mph these days.

This isn't Steve, but rather Sean Cridland (@ 162mph), but you get the idea.






Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Nov 23, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
Just cause you are out there pounding the pavement doesn't mean a proper fashion sense should not be kept uppermost in your mind at all times.
Consider these beautys .
Fashion sense and fitness are NEVER mutually exclusive.

Credit: Donald Thompson
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Nov 23, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
^Damn, while I probably won't wear them myself, I think I'll buy Michele a pair for Christmas.

Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
So I ended up at Eclipse Running in Reno this morning....nice store, and good help.

Tried on a half dozen shoes and ran them around the parking lot. Ended up buying a pair of Brooks shoes...their "Ghost" model.

Giving them their first run tomorrow.

Thanks for all the input here...I'll let ya know what I think of them.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2012 - 10:29am PT
Trial run (pun intended) felt good!
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2012 - 01:58pm PT
Well, I am certainly better at running it out.....than running.

:/
John M

climber
Nov 29, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
Keep going.. Day three usually sucks the worst. Though four and five can be pretty bad too. heh heh. :-)
darkmagus

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Nov 29, 2012 - 02:05pm PT
I'm a huge fan of anything made by Brooks. I have a pair of cascadia trail runners at the moment.

Don't get five fingers, otherwise YER GONNA DIE
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
Been advised to stay on an every-other-day running schedule initially....until the bod adjusts a bit.

Today's run, in 40 knot winds and 44 degree temps with rain showers....was...interesting.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Nov 29, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
^Might make the case for running barefoot. I hate running in wet shoes.



GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 29, 2012 - 03:52pm PT
40 knots? How'd ya measure it?

;D
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2012 - 04:55pm PT
GDavis, living in the mountains for half my life....I spend a lot of time in less than desirable conditions. Between climbing and SAR ops in brutal weather, one gets a good idea of wind strengths.

When you nearly get knocked on your arse....that's 40+ knot territory.

:)
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Nov 29, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
Not to mess up a good response, but I am compelled to ask, which half and (you saw it coming didnt' ya?) how did you measure it?


-Sir Isaac (don't call me fig) Newton

Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
zBrown, do you know what an anemometer is?

And the second half...from 27 years young to presently 51 years better.

:)
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Nov 29, 2012 - 05:43pm PT
If you can get over the boredom factor (a very high hurdle), then buying and using an elliptical machine is probably better for you all-around healthwise.

I always feel like I'm not working nearly as hard on the elliptical. Much easier to get heart rate up when running. Turning up the resistance isn't the same -- yeah, it gets the heart rate up, but it's like wading through molasses.

For the boredom, that's the primary reason I got a smart phone: watch movies while on the cardio machine at the gym.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Nov 29, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
For boring indoor cardio workouts, I really liked the rowing machine. It's a very calming exercise, makes me feel like I'm row, row, rowing my boat....
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Nov 29, 2012 - 07:34pm PT
Do I know what a weather vane is? The answer my friend is blowing in the wind.





http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1997834&msg=1998064#msg1998064
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:46am PT
I always feel like I'm not working nearly as hard on the elliptical.

I feel the same way, stairmaster too. Only thing that comes close to running is swimming. Dont forget swimming as an injury-free alternative. I also use the stationary bike, but high tension just builds leg strength, and never gets to the same aerobic level as the others.

When the weather is bad, I run on a treadmill, and use that to discipline myself to an 8:00 min pace. Its good to do this sometimes, to get a benchmark, then when you're outside you can basically feel how fast you're going and set realistic goals. I dont want to add more mileage if brings me down to a 9 or 10 minute pace. That's jogging and the repitition is what wrecks your knees, etc. What I've found is that running faster is not bad for you, but jogging longer distances seems to be.
eKat

Trad climber
BackInTheDitch BackInTheDirt BackInTheDay
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:51am PT
I always feel like I'm not working nearly as hard on the elliptical.

That's the idea. Great workout with less "Rate of Perceived Exertion."

I bought one 2 months ago and it ROCKS. . . I do 300 - 450 mins a week and it was just what I needed. (hey, I'll ski, even race, in full blown whiteouts - but don't ask me to powerwalk in the rain!)

:-)

Plus. . . I blew out a hammie back in the spring (skeezin) undoubtedly from the gut ache meds I was taking (since MUSCLE WEAKNESS is one of the top side effects). . . I over compensated for that HUGE muscle being wrecked by walking weird - thus totally screwing up my other foot. . . DOOD!

I'm off the meds (THANK GOD! I discovered I was wheat intolerant and put down on both wheat and the meds). . . and the even, graceful, adjustable stride of the elliptical has completely restored my strength - to both sides of my hulkyself.

DIG IT!

Ya know what they say. . . the BEST cardio machine you can buy is the one you'll actually use. . . for me, it's the elliptical. . . for my money, it's the closest thing to the grace and fluidity of Nordic skeezin. . . and I LOVE IT. It took me 5ive years to finally pull the trigger on this puppy. . . and I kinda kick my own butt for waiting so long.

YMMV!

photo not found
Missing photo ID#268893



SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Nov 30, 2012 - 09:38am PT
Now that you got the right shoes you might want to invest in a GPS heart rate monitor. I am having a blast with mine. It uploads to Google Maps and you can animate your run, elevation changes measured against heart rate, pace and averages. It works very well on my trail runs in heavily forested Santa Cruz mountains. I got the womens Garmin 110. Price about $150. It's a fairly basic model and does all I could ever want. The ones with all the bells and whistles...way over the top. I'll be able to use it for skiing too. Can't wait

Susan
Doug Tomczik

climber
Bishop
Nov 30, 2012 - 10:28am PT
Go to Sage to Summit. Great shop with staff that really know the shoes. Shop local.
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Nov 30, 2012 - 10:36am PT
Now that you got the right shoes you might want to invest in a GPS heart rate monitor. I am having a blast with mine. It uploads to Google Maps and you can animate your run, elevation changes measured against heart rate, pace and averages. It works very well on my trail runs in heavily forested Santa Cruz mountains. I got the womens Garmin 110. Price about $150. It's a fairly basic model and does all I could ever want. The ones with all the bells and whistles...way over the top. I'll be able to use it for skiing too. Can't wait

Second that. I use the MapMyFitness phone app. Heart rate requires an adapter and ANT-compatible sensor, though.

Geek-bait aside, it is a bit of a progress-measuring tool b/c you can save routes and compare times / pace. 'Course, you can do that with a watch and a note pad -- this is just more convenient because you don't need to know the distance of the route (it measures the distance as you go), so you can compare pace from run to run without having to measure each and every route.
John M

climber
Nov 30, 2012 - 10:56am PT
If Rox was still here he would be having a conniption fit about now.

Gawdang it. When I was a youngster I ran nekid through the woods with gangbangers and wolfs chasing me. You don't need no special shoes or dagnabbit computers to help you run. All that you need is fear. Thats all you need. Go find the meanest dog in the neighborhood and kick it. Speaking of which.. all you damn Californians won't let us kick our dogs anymore and now dogs are a bunch of worthless pussies. what good is a dog if it won't eat you or chase you? Leave our dogs alone. Stupid fecking californians.



I'm short about a 1000 words.. but you get the gist.
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Nov 30, 2012 - 11:03am PT
Yep, no one "needs" any of this sh#t any more than they "need" to go climbing, need cams, chalk, tape, stretchy ropes...

But some things are simply fun, and sometimes comfort or additional protection are a good thing.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Nov 30, 2012 - 11:59am PT
@stzzo

For a different take on heart rate check out Phil Maffetone's thinking

(u can start here if inclined: http://philmaffetone.com/180formula.cfm);.

Mark Allen who won the Hawaii ironman six times is a proponent and former(?) practitioner.

I got a heart-rate monitor and tried it out, but like the article says it's hard to do.

However, others have other approaches:

In Tabata's study, the researchers found that athletes who used the routine five days a week for six weeks improved their maximum aerobic capacity by 14% and improved their anaerobic capacity by 28%. A study of traditional aerobic training of running at 70% of aerobic capacity for 60 minutes for six weeks showed an improvement in aerobic capacity of 9.5% and no effect on anaerobic capacity.

So what is the Tabata routine?

In their research Tabata et al.(1996) showed that a 4 minute cardiovascular training routine improved fitness. The whole session lasts 14 minutes and is comprised of a 5 minute warm up, 4 minutes of intense exercise and a 5 minute cool down. The 4 minutes of intense exercise is comprised of 8 repeats of 20 seconds of maximum effort work of your selected exercise followed by a recovery of 10 seconds.

I did a modification of the Tabata on a e-machine to test it out

5:00 @5mph warm up
5X(:40 @12mph & :20 @6mph)
5:00 @5.5mph cool down
total 15:00

It worked.









The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Nov 30, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
@zBrown: Thanks, I'll check it out. I don't find it hard to stay in a given range, if it's a range that I want to be in. They also have those zone-based reporting tools that let you define a zone and tell you when you're in it or not, how long you stayed in it overall, etc.

@eKat:

I always feel like I'm not working nearly as hard on the elliptical.

That's the idea. Great workout with less "Rate of Perceived Exertion."

But I prefer to perceive that I'm exerting myself... Maybe I need a perspective shift :-).
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Nov 30, 2012 - 12:56pm PT
Garmin + sporttracks + training load plugin = slightly more intelligent running.

http://www.zonefivesoftware.com/sporttracks/
http://mechgt.com/st/

WKO+ sucks, BTW, in case you happen to look at it.

Like climbing shoes, there's no best shoe for any amount of money - just ones that fit and work for you and ones that don't.

Most stores these days will put you on a treadmill and look at your gait, landing in different shoes with a high speed video camera.

If you start developing strange pains in your legs or hips, you probably have a curable issue with your shoes and/or your gait. Many give up running due to these issues, generally blaming "running" as the problem.
jstan

climber
Nov 30, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
Dean:
I have a professional question. Could you PM me with your email addy?

Appreciate it.

John
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
Today's run felt SO much better! Gonna stick with this every-other-day schedule for now.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2013 - 04:50am PT
The Brooks 'Ghost' running shoes served me well all winter. I battled the cold lung syndrome for a time, then ended up on the treadmill all winter down at the Double Eagle. Sure was nice to get back outside once spring arrived.

I added a mile every month. In March, running 5 miles every other day, I had a bout with splints in the left shin, and had to lay off for a while. Stayed on the stationary bike for a few weeks to lessen the impact, then took a two week break from everything to get healed.

By June 1st I hit 8 miles every other day, and feeling good. Those Brooks shoes are the bomb!

Now that I am where I want to be, I have to say....running would be a great, truly wonderful thing.....if it weren't for all that...running.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jun 26, 2013 - 05:05am PT
Try Hookas...Super cushiony and supposedly prevents associated running pain...They have them in Bishop at the Sage to Summit..RJ
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Jun 26, 2013 - 05:26am PT

Now that I am where I want to be, I have to say....running would be a great, truly wonderful thing.....if it weren't for all that...running.

The good part is it takes less time than road biking.

My own cardio has dwindled to climbing approaches and eating pizza.
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