Twisted rope syndrome

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 1 - 27 of total 27 in this topic
Onewhowalksonrocks

Mountain climber
portland, Maine
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 13, 2012 - 11:29am PT
I know all of us has rap a rope or belayed and had to deal with the twisting of the rope. By rapping a rope using a carabiner brake system will re leave the twist for a awhile. On a rope I bought a year ago still twist.

I would like to know how you fix this problem or can it be fixed?

When I coil the rope after climbing I work the twist out and I have hung a rope over night before and it has helped. But not with this rope.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 13, 2012 - 11:32am PT
How disappointing - I thought this thread was gonna be about Locker or Rottingjohnny.
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Nov 13, 2012 - 11:39am PT
^^^^^^^


indeed, that rope has an incurable, intractable syndrome, and should not be climbed on


send it to me for safe disposal


c/o The Pit, Joshua Tree, CA



.
Inner City

Trad climber
East Bay
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:01pm PT
Dangle the rope from a high place where it can hang free...kinks will vanish like the winter sun..
Master of Kludge

Trad climber
Grizzly Gulch, WY
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
The twists arise from not coiling them correctly. You maybe putting in a half twist every other looping.

You notice the kinks etc. because the rappel tends to straighten rope by pushing the seemingly internal hidden twist down the rope to its end. If you rappelled on a single free end that did not touch the ground and was free to you would get almost no twists but the rope would spin.

Yes, you can get rid of these kinks by suspending rope.

labrat

Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:56pm PT
Some ropes seem to be incurable. Wear it out and buy another model / brand.
Roxy

Trad climber
CA Central Coast
Nov 13, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
rapping on twisted ropes!?!??!


dude, you're so on borrowed time ; )
wallyvirginia

Trad climber
Stockholm, Sweden
Nov 13, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
I've had ropes that constantly twisted and kinked, and others that almost never did.. Some ropes are just cursed it seems. I read somewhere on Beals website that you have to uncoil a new rope in a special manner, otherwise it will give you trouble. Don't know much about that.

My current Beal rope never kinks, my previous kinked all the time (I gave it away) same brand, same model.
squishy

Mountain climber
Nov 13, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
yer gonna die or something...
fat-n-sassy

Social climber
San Francity, CA
Nov 13, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
kink?

did you say kink?
Master of Kludge

Trad climber
Grizzly Gulch, WY
Nov 13, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
Here is a description of how to find out whether you put twists in your rope from coiling:

Suspend the rope from a cliff that is a little higher that the rope is long for several days in the warm sunlight. After that duration anchor the bottom end tight and then with you favorite marking pen rap down alongside the rope drawing a line on your rope that always faces outward and is on the outermost region from the cliff of that round curvature.

After using the rope for a month and coiling it every day[no rappelling during this interval] you can anchor it again at top of the cliff and then pitch the other end of it off the same cliff and have someone catch the bottom end and take it to the wall and holding it while you come down. Next rappell along the rope and check if the magic marker line rotates. I suspect you will have some rotations in it.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Nov 13, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
Flake the rope several times.
Master of Kludge

Trad climber
Grizzly Gulch, WY
Nov 13, 2012 - 03:17pm PT
Flake the rope
?

Tell us what that means.

To get twist out of the rope you have to twist one end with respect to the other end an amount equal to the number of rotation that exist in it. No topological shortcuts here!

Oh please tell me how accurate flaking does this.
Master of Kludge

Trad climber
Grizzly Gulch, WY
Nov 13, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
The sure way to keep from adding any twists to a rope while coiling is to coil it in a figure "8" . Doing this puts a half twist in one way and on other half of the "8" puts a twist the other way. And this adds to zero rotation.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 13, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
Butterfly coil, no twists
crasic

climber
Nov 13, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
One little trick from wrapping wires and from knot theory.

If you coil both ends together, any twists you put in by accident are effectivelly null. One end will twist the opposite of the other and the total twist is 0.

Why I always butterfly coil both ends at once, have to do a little extra work flaking the rope before climbing, but NO TWISTS.
Master of Kludge

Trad climber
Grizzly Gulch, WY
Nov 13, 2012 - 05:26pm PT
crasic,

If you coil both ends together, any twists you put in by accident are effectively null. One end will twist the opposite of the other and the total twist is 0.

Climbing ropes exhibit very little rotational stiffness or shear if you will and they do not transmit rotation like plastic pex tubing does. Grab your rope and twist one end; does the other end twist? NO, those turns are now in the rope memory and will not come out until you twist them out. The butterfly method seemingly does not add twists and neither does it remove them. What you start out with rotations in the rope they will be there unnoticed until some device pushes them together. Rope is not WIRE.
crasic

climber
Nov 13, 2012 - 05:29pm PT
The twists put in when coiling both ends, even if they stay in the rope, are in opposite directions, when you rap or use a device to push to twists down they will cancel out at the end of the rope.

Sometimes you still encounter some twists in the middle, but I haven't ever had a rats nest at the end from twists that other people seem to have
Master of Kludge

Trad climber
Grizzly Gulch, WY
Nov 13, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
crasic,

NO! If there is an actual twist in the rope the net rotation will be greater than zero. Cancellation of this doesn't happen without twisting one end with respect to the other end.
mooser

Trad climber
seattle
Nov 13, 2012 - 05:54pm PT
Put a knot in the end of each length, but don't tie them together.
Roxy

Trad climber
CA Central Coast
Nov 13, 2012 - 06:04pm PT
is Weld-iT still around?

he'd hit this one out the park
Fossil climber

Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
Nov 13, 2012 - 06:12pm PT
Free solo. No twists.
Master of Kludge

Trad climber
Grizzly Gulch, WY
Nov 13, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
rope twist
rope twist
Credit: Master of Kludge

Study this tracing diagram and you will see that once both ends are held you cannot put a twist in the rope.

And based on this tracing experiment I will say that twists do not get in the rope from coiling it [ends held] almost regardless of how you do it. Twists get in the rope when final sum [just before untieing] of the rotations of the belayer and the climber[while they are tied to the rope] does not cancel to zero. We are talking about 360 degree rotations on chimneys ledges and beginings and endings.

For you trad climbers I know it will hard for you to tie each end of the rope to the rope bag.
LuckyPink

climber
the last bivy
Nov 13, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
if you top rope frequently or rap on a figure 8 device it will twist your rope. suspend both activities
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Nov 13, 2012 - 08:10pm PT
Ah but master of kludge you're perhaps forgetting that one can twist the rope in the middle, to the point of kinking it the f*#k up, and not even get to the ends. End result is still a kinky rope.

A butterfly coil can introduce a kinking action from the center-line out. This results in counter-rotational spirals, ultimately cancelling each other out twist-wise, end-of-rope.

Eh?

DMT
Master of Kludge

Trad climber
Grizzly Gulch, WY
Nov 14, 2012 - 05:11am PT
lucky Pink,

my experience in the days of using a figure 8 was that they did twist the rope and were not mere just push existing twists to the end of the rope. By drawing a line on a rope as I describe earlier in this post you could keep track of such possible rotations.

One could fix the bottom end of the rope before using the 8. 8's seem to both push existing twists down the rope and create new rotations. But if the end is fixed while rappelling with an 8 no new twists can be added. We need an experiment!

Top Roping: depends on the anchors, extra rope beyond twice the climb height, whether it is twist free to begin with and how many 360 degree turns the belay and climber that do not cancel do while they are tied in. At 2 cliffs where we do a lot of both leading and top roping we use a rope that in length is 2X the climb heights, pairs of ramhorn anchors (modified open cold shuts) and the ropes never seen to get twists. Sometimes when the short ropes are in use one guy uses his 70m rope on these 50 ft climbs and it seems to be a pile of spaghetti.

Master of Kludge

Trad climber
Grizzly Gulch, WY
Nov 14, 2012 - 05:23am PT
DMT,

The butterfly like coil would seem to generate no kinks when the ends are fixed as tied on a rope bag. Collect the rope to the bag by pulling simultaneously or ropes together from the 2 knots. Actually you can lay it in any fashion you want working to the middle marker and laying the middle on the finished top of the pile.

At next use of the rope, if you grab this middle marker and walk it out to where you just begin dragging the rope bag you will have no new twist in the rope. For use pull the rope back to the bag on the belayer's end single stranded and give the other knot end to the lead climber.

To do this you will have to undo any knots and pseudo twists you may have put into it while collecting it. I call these pseudo twists because you cannot put a twist into the rope without rotating one end with respect to the other and since the rope was knotted on both ends the ends could not be rotated.

Messages 1 - 27 of total 27 in this topic
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews