Werner, destiny or fate

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Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 12, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
On my thread about... well you know

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1983368/OT-two-non-climbing-issues-that-bug-me

Werner, you wrote...

John Wayne didn't enlist or get into the military because it wasn't his destiny.

Everyone is destined to go a certain way in their life.

We don't have full control .......

I often wonder that. Control of our destiny.

Are we left to the fates or do we control of our destiny, or a bit of both.

I have pondered, and it gives me a headache.

Yoga, meditation, exercise... they help.

But I still have this feeling, do I have control of my life?

Why didn't I get up the Salathé Wall the first time (because of the two idiot partners, but did fate have anything to do with meeting up with them?)

Why am I near broke? (That's an easy one, my stupid mismanagement of my monies.)

Why did I meet Jennie? A woman I love but also have to put up with her medical condition. Couldn't I have met a more healthier gal who likes the outdoors, climbing etc? But then, if Jen had not hooked up with me, she probably would be dead by now, her doctors concur with that assessment. And she is too fine a woman to be leaving this world. Did fate have something to do with our meeting?

There are so many, perhaps too many, instances in my life where I wonder if I had control of my destiny, or the Fates did.

I contemplate... my navel, my life, my climbing ability.

But I do not have to contemplate my love for life. It is there. The eternal optimist.



John M

climber
Nov 12, 2012 - 03:59pm PT
Both

You have Karma from previous lifetimes
You have world Karma from the world that you live in
You have your own life plans that you made before you came into this lifetime
You have your choices in this lifetime
Plus, you have the choices others make


All of these things work together to make up your existence and your experience


World Karma plays a bigger role then people realize. You can be a nice guy and be born into a world where everyone else is involved in a world war which will limit your choices in this life.

Oh.. and there are those who know how to dodge karma, or get others to take their karma. Those folks are just plain evil. Dick Cheney is a karma dodger. One day it will catch up with him, but for now he is still wealthy even though he is an evil sh#t.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Nov 12, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
Destiny AND Karma are a load of crap.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Nov 12, 2012 - 05:15pm PT
Choice.

Far different than either destiny or fate.

Once one makes the choice to do something, then destiny and fate can do their part.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2012 - 05:23pm PT
John M and The Chief, I like your contributions. May be not helpful in a sense, but...


Captain or Skully... negative, but I respect your opinion.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Nov 12, 2012 - 05:46pm PT
hey there say, patrick...


so as to leave god, and how i belief out, so not to be preachy, though, you can always ask later, if you want, and i would share, :)


think of it kind of like this:

LEADING toward something success in this life:

the destiny part is like gravity, etc, principles that obviously work
a certain way...

then, choices, as to how we choose to handle our life, as to (in this case, for example) gravity...

we either DO things that co-operate with it... respect and work with it, and the 'destined outcomes' in one way, come to pass, but then, too, the actions or reactions to our actions, also come to pass, as well...

there is like a 'whole picture' thing going on, that is 'fine tuned' spiritually, to our physcial being that lives here...


leading toward something UNsuccessful:

then, (for example, too, just using gravity, since it is so easy to see), there is the complete utter non-care for how 'gravity' works... destiny, in this case, come to pass in an obvious way, as to what bad choices would do... or choices made by never caring to seek out knowledge, etc, before making any, as to how one 'deals with gravity'...

:O

many times the 'whole picture' would never even get a chance, and it would not be the 'spiritual aspect' fault, as the outcome, here, then...

LASTLY:
the who we meet, and jobs we get, and all the etc, that connect with all this, many times have something to do with how they connnect to our inner-feelings and learned-ventured, and coaching, experimenting, and what we believe deep inside that we really want-or-are seeking, from all we've gone through, and who we think we are... (or at least, so far have learned what we really are)...
edit: yet, because of how destiny of (in this case) gravity worked out something, THERE was the someone, something, etc, THERE when it 'belonged there' (so to speak) and then--time for the NEXT choice, etc, etc,...

not sure if this helps??
you could find other examples, too...


ooop, the lastly, kind of makes it more complex, huh?
but human are complex, at times, :)

Captain...or Skully

climber
Nov 12, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
Not negative at all, Paddy. I'm quite positive.
I just don't waste energy on False constructs. I have just enough energy to waste on Reality.

John M

climber
Nov 12, 2012 - 06:08pm PT
Its just a word Captain..

Before science, folks called the accumulation of your choices your karma. Does science even have a word for the accumulation of your choices?

wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Nov 12, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
endeavor to persevere,even if it is fate,how could we control it,....luck ,as we have it,is best wished, good luck, pat and stay chuffed
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Nov 12, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
If we have a destiny then we have no choice. We are just watching our lives unfold before us.

Boy does that sound like something a serial killer might say when asked about the guilt they feel for their heinous acts.

No responsibility means no guild but also means there is no requirement to try... to do anything. No reason to be a better person if being a jackass is your destiny I suppose.

Dave
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Nov 12, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
Dick Cheney is a karma dodger. One day it will catch up with him...

If it catches up to him then he is not dodging his karma at all. Or is there a rule that dictates when karma reflects back on you and messes up your life because of the crap you did? Is it days, weeks, or just a few years?

Dave
WBraun

climber
Nov 12, 2012 - 06:27pm PT
Karma is just activity.

In every field of life we enjoy the results of our work, or we suffer the results.

There's nothing mystical nor constructed about Karma at all.

Karma is totally material in its nature.

Everyone is either suffering and or enjoying the result of their/our own destiny.

We the conditioned living entities create our own destiny during this life and that destiny is transferred to our next life.

Of course modern science, the atheist, the Christians and others will all disagree and say one life only and you're toast, finished and become zero.

Christians will say one life only heaven or hell.

This is only due to poor fund of knowledge, not faith or belief.

The embodied living entities (us) will suffer and enjoy according to our destiny.

The intelligent class will remain equipoised thru all enjoyment and suffering.

Extremely difficult to do especially in this day and age of hypocrisy and quarrel.

This is why free will and choice is extremely important.

These two, free will and choice, can get the living entity out of the cycle of birth, death, karma and destiny when properly executed.

Modern western consciousness has lost this knowledge due to its total materialistic focus only .......


John M

climber
Nov 12, 2012 - 06:35pm PT
If it catches up to him then he is not dodging his karma at all. Or is there a rule that dictates when karma reflects back on you and messes up your life because of the crap you did? Is it days, weeks, or just a few years?

Yes, in the end there is no way to absolutely dodge your karma, but you can put off the end results for a time. Putting off those results for lifetimes is what some call karma dodging.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Nov 12, 2012 - 06:47pm PT
Fate and/or destiny are IMO both a product of choices we make.

The individual must initiate the action/behavior prior to the forces of either to take effect.

One can not have either if they assume the non-action position.

The complete control aspect comes from the initial choice to proceed and then one must adjust their sail as the winds of fate and destiny start blowing. Then one has some control but not total as to what the results may be.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Nov 12, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
equipoised thru all enjoyment and suffering,...yeah man
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Nov 12, 2012 - 07:22pm PT

If it's Werner it has to be destiny. . .
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 12, 2012 - 07:35pm PT
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=984315&msg=984498#msg984498
No hands, man!
No hands, man!
Credit: Peter Haan

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/984500/THE-WERNERS-LUGWRENCH-CHRISTIANS-PREPARE-TO-WALK-ON-WATER
Werner's Knife Skills!
Werner's Knife Skills!
Credit: FISH™ Photo Archive
His choice is to amaze us with his amazing amazement at our amazing stupidity.

John M, in respect to science, not sure, but I could see death, "the mundane word we hate to think on," as the sum of our life's choices. In that we are all equal. Mother Earth.
MissJ

Social climber
Nov 12, 2012 - 09:21pm PT
Why did I meet Jennie? A woman I love but also have to put up with her medical condition.

Patrick, you don't have to "put up" with her medical condition .

I would like to think your good character is choosing to stay by her side and treat her with dignity and respect because of your love for her.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 12, 2012 - 09:35pm PT
So Dick Cheney's evilness was acting in concert with people that deserved bad karma, he was like the Zen Teacher hitting the deserving over the head with a bomb or some anthrax.
The Iraq war was destiny for all those that deserved their fate.

How do they (the Karma Masters) keep it all straight, it's good to die if you have alot of Good Karma built up?

So many questions???

Is there a Karma Bank??
And you can borrow and pay into it?
Or does it come down to destiny, and no matter what you do, it doesn't matter, destiny will dictate your future
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
Nov 12, 2012 - 09:44pm PT
Act as if, with intention, and free will emerges.
MisterE

Social climber
Nov 12, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
Of course modern science, the atheist, the Christians and others will all disagree and say one life only and you're toast, finished and become zero.

I thought Werner said one life only and you're taoist, and it didn't make any sense...


John M

climber
Nov 12, 2012 - 10:03pm PT
So Dick Cheney's evilness was acting in concert with people that deserved bad karma, he was like the Zen Teacher hitting the deserving over the head with a bomb or some anthrax.
The Iraq war was destiny for all those that deserved their fate.

No.. Incomplete answer.

Good people don't deserve the evil that is foisted on them, though there are people who have made bad choices and get what they get. There are also Saints who choose to take on this evil in order to be the judgment of the evil. Jesus said.. "for judgment I am come". The rest are somewhere in-between. As I said, there is personal karma, and world karma, and evil. If you live in this world, then you are subject to all three though there are those who don't deserve either the world karma that presently exists or the evil.

Some people here seem to define destiny or fate as written in stone. It is not. It is a combination of your karma which is the build up of all past decisions and actions, plus your current decisions and actions.

You could be fated/destined to be a great climber coming into this world with great genes and a great family, and then derail that by choosing instead to do drugs, or even be derailed by someone else's evil, such as getting drafted into a war. The future is not written in stone, though predilections and a preponderance of Karma can indicate likely futures.

There is a whole lot more to it, but that is the readers digest super condensed version.

Just my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt. My destiny seems to be similar to Juans. I'm sorely tired of this planet.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 12, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
Americans are destined to be stupid...Not by choice but by Karma...Patrick ...Eliminate the American half of your dual citizenship and you will immeadiately feel smarter....PS...Watch out for the killer fog crystals...RJ
burntheman

Trad climber
slt
Nov 12, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
Just to help the discussion...

Destiny and fate are pretty much synonyms.

"Does science even have a word for the accumulation of your choices"

This isn't science. It's philosophy.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:04am PT
As destiny is dragging you up and fate is dragging you down, you can exercise your free will.

PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:27am PT
Once you know the nature of anger and joy is empty and you let them go, you free yourself from karma.

Bodhidharma (c. 440 AD - 528 AD)
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Nov 13, 2012 - 12:56am PT
I can't but help use my own experience to guide me about whether or not there is free will or destiny. It's all I really have.

I don't see that I can be anyone I want to be. I'm stuck here in this body, in this time frame, by my parents, with the events in life--which at least for the most part, were not my making. When I look very closely I don't find that I make decisions or initiate actions consciously. Everything on the inside seems to "well up" from no where that I can find. It SEEMS like I have free will and choice, but I can tell you that there are many times when I feel like I'm in a movie, coasting, and the the universe is happening around me. I'm thinking it's all a done deal; no one is responsible; no one can be guilty of anything. It's all mapped out. Really. Everything. Call it anything you want to, but I sense an immense intelligence . . . beyond conception. Am I hearing the infinite, inter-related equations of variables all interacting to create what we call "now," or am I simply coming to a recognition that I'm a particle in an ocean of consciousness, learning that I am the ocean? Nothing can be any other way right here, right now.

A sense of control is necessary for every individual. Without it, you can't be an individual. That would be too bad for every body.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
MIssJ, I sort of worded that wrong. When I said "put up" I simply meant to deal with the condition. And I do love her.

When she first came out of hospital August 26 2010, the docs, social workers and public health nurse said that she had two options - home care or state care. Several people I know said to put her in to care and have a life. I had about $100,000 in cash and shares and I could have walked away.

But she deserves a quality of life and I hope that I am providing both love and quality for her. Everyone says I am. But I admit, it can be trying at times. And the booklet the Carer's Association sent me at the beginning Running on Empty: Who Cares for the Caregiver has been helpful.

My GP (general practitioner) told me (several months ago when I went to see him about stress and have my bloods taken) that I will be rewarded in my next life, and then I could see he wondered if that was the appropriate thing to say, I just laughed and replied: "That's okay doc, I understand what you mean."
captain chaos

climber
Nov 13, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
What Werner said...
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Nov 13, 2012 - 03:18pm PT
Control is illusion.



Ride the Wild, every day. Jump on the back of a wild horse, grab her hair, dig your heels in HARD and give her a go, see if you got what it takes to stay in the saddle. :-)

When opportunity knocks? Answer the damn door, already!

Fate by definition is not yours to control. Destiny... is not yours to assign. Both are the fabrication of the living, neither have any meaning other than what those of us this side of the veil, assign it.

Never let a day go by.....

DMT
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Nov 13, 2012 - 03:59pm PT
Of course modern science, the atheist, the Christians and others will all disagree and say one life only and you're toast, finished and become zero.
You might become zero, but I aspire to be raw materials for other life forms.
locker

Social climber
Nov 13, 2012 - 04:02pm PT

Not negative at all, Paddy. I'm quite positive.
I just don't waste energy on False constructs. I have just enough energy to waste on Reality."
...

TOTALLY with you on that one!!!...

;-)

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2012 - 05:33pm PT
Not negative at all, Paddy. I'm quite positive.
I just don't waste energy on False constructs. I have just enough energy to waste on Reality."...

TOTALLY with you on that one!!!...

Captain or Skully, and Locker, I see and understand where you both are coming from, and I do agree that focusing one's energy on the here and now is the primary objective.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Nov 13, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
It's where we live. I think you know that all too well.
Sorry to seem harsh.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2012 - 06:50pm PT
Cap Skully, you're not harsh, just realistic.


Something I wish I could be at times... most of the time... all of the time.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Nov 13, 2012 - 06:55pm PT
poor poor pitiful me. i'd been laboring under the (apparently) mistaken notion that it was either fortune or fame


mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 13, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
I don't know about anyone else's experience.

I sealed my fate, future, destiny when I committed marriage with Liz. Till death. Beyond, well, you aren't committed.

But in sickness and in health, that's the one that makes it hard to keep the committment. Every day for years on end. Believe me, I see it among my friends, my relatives. It's love--it's how you exect to be treated if the tables are turned and you are the one with dementia, the leukemia, or what-have-you.

You know you are doing the right thing, Patrick, have made the correct decision. It takes courage and I hope you learned that it's a far greater courage that it requires than does climbing. In my opinion and in my experience...
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