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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 11, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
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Firstly, why didn't John Wayne (an American icon, and contrary to some a very accomplished and technical actor, and yes I am a fan, but not of his politics) and a couple of other stars not enlist in WW2, while the likes of Jimmy Stewart, Henry Fonda, Eddie Albert, David Niven, Denholm Elliot, Clark Gable and a number other actors/stars/celebrities/etc did, putting their careers on hold?
http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/military/actors_in_wwii.html
http://www.listal.com/list/war-heroes-big-screen-war
Likewise in the Korean War - Telly Savalas, James Garner, Michael Caine etc.
And of course those who served in Vietnam and indeed, people like Pat Tillman in recent conflicts.
And Ted Williams, both WW2 and Korea.
Of course, there are other nationalities beside US and British I have not mentioned.
And secondly, maybe I don't get it, but how in the world did that crap South Park make it past one season?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
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Point taken Locker, but he never saw active duty, to the best of my knowledge, or came under fire.
Of course there were those entertainers who performed duties towards the Allied cause, but you would think macho Wayne would have wanted to see frontline duty.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
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Locker that is an interesting article that may explain certain things about John Wayne's psyche.
And yes, while there may be some Supertopians who are fans of the show, I think that South Part sucks big time and is probably the worst program/series to hit television. And yes, I have (tried) to watch the show a number of times to understand its appeal, but... no go. The animation is school kid, the jokes/barbs childish, the scriptwriting third rate, at best... wait a minute, no wonder so many Americans like it. What ten plus seasons? Weird.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
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Will the 'talk/chat/whatever' shows like jeremy Kyle (Britain) and Steve Wilkos (US) are not far behind South Park.
At least Dr Phil has degrees in psychology. Kyle, ex-insurance salesman, Wilkos, ex-cop and Marine, perhaps a tad bit better qualified than Kyle.
Jennie often asks me, with my background in journalism, television, acting, why don't I do a talk show.
Heck look how it has made Oprah and Ellen, and others, rich.
I don't know, maybe something like Pat Talk and Chat Talk or Paddy is your psychotic Daddy, or Sawyer Says or Chatty Paddy...
or my favorite Chat with Pat
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Nov 11, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
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Remember Hollywood is just an imitation of real life!
John Wayne's real name was Marion Morrison
And cartoons are just an imitation of that imitation
Which is usually a negative connotation.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 11, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
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My favorite of those guys is Somerset Maughm, who was a full-on Walther-packing Spy during WWI, and wrote about it, using the experiences in essays and short stories.
South Park, in my estimation, has had moments of brilliance worthy of Lenny Bruce. But it's been largely lame the last few seasons.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 11, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
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Why is Beavis & Butthead rated "for mature audiences only" ?
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Nov 11, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
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How did South Park make it 10 seasons?
Patrick, we now live in a era where the History Channel is made up of shows like Ice Road Truckers and Swamp People. And TLC, which used to stand for the Learning Channel (which now stands for The Lowest Common IMO) is made up of even worse shows like Honey Boo Boo, Toddlers & Tiaras and Bada Bing Brides. Shwos like Jersey Shore, the Kardashians and Desperate Housewives can last several, several seasons. and a frighteningly large percentage of people form their political opinions from bias comical media commentary shows like John Stewart.
In light of it all, South Park ain't half bad.
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 11, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
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Supposedly, from one of his biographies, the government actually asked Hollywood and John Wayne to make propaganda war films instead of him serving. He wanted to serve. Not sure why the other big stars of that time didn't have this option too. Maybe one was enough and Wayne wasn't a pilot, which were in big demand. The same happened with my grandfather. He was told to stay home and keep the hardware and feedstore going to assist the farmers in the area instead.
South Park has put out some awesome social commentary for those with the cynical sense of humor to appreciate it.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Nov 11, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
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Good question that is pretty unlikely to get answered...
Bingo!
South Park is funnier than North Park and I rarely can watch either one all the way through an episode. Now Fluffy, he's funny.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nov 11, 2012 - 04:26pm PT
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Actually, the majority of the men who served in any of our wars, including WW2, Korea and Vietnam, never "saw" actual combat.
That majority of the Armed Forces served in all the backup and support roles:
anything from food procurement and preparation for the troops to naval, marine, air force and army field mechanics to keep all those war vehicles operative
the list is virtually endless for those that did serve but did not engage in actual combat
I don't see how it "fair" to criticize anyone, even a movie star, for not seeing combat while serving in the capacity their superior officers ordered them to serve within
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 11, 2012 - 05:02pm PT
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It is hard to deduce why someone 'avoids' serving his country in a time of
need without coming to selfishness and cowardice, wouldn't you say? Even
Charles 'I love Adolph' Lindbergh eventually served admirably.
South Park is for dolts.
Patrick, I would love to see your talk show. Would it be a patch on Graham Norton's? :-)
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 12, 2012 - 12:06am PT
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Stone and Parker, you know there's a death penalty in Colorado, you scum.
Arch hypocrisy. I too wonder why he side-stepped the real action, which I never truly really relaized, but now you raise the question...
What films of worth did the Duke star in during the war?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 12, 2012 - 12:53am PT
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John Wayne didn't enlist or get into the military because it wasn't his destiny.
Everyone is destined to go a certain way in their life.
We don't have full control .......
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 12, 2012 - 01:42am PT
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In fact, WereNe'er, Truer Ne'er Were Muttered and your destiny just made you say that.
It doesn't bug me that Marion never served. Really, stop and think: for everyone who served, so many didn't, yet they may have acquitted themselves well, as was earlier explained. It's not truly ours to judge, and therefore, why speculate either? POINTLESS...
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Nov 12, 2012 - 03:21am PT
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Wikipedia:
America's entry into World War II resulted in a deluge of support for the war effort from all sectors of society, and Hollywood was no exception. Wayne was exempted from service due to his age (34 at the time of Pearl Harbor) and family status, classified as 3-A (family deferment). He repeatedly wrote to John Ford, asking to be placed in Ford's military unit, but consistently postponed it until "after he finished one more film",[27] Wayne did not attempt to prevent his reclassification as 1-A (draft eligible), but Republic Studios was emphatically resistant to losing him; Herbert J. Yates, President of Republic, threatened Wayne with a lawsuit if he walked away from his contract[28] and Republic Pictures intervened in the Selective Service process, requesting Wayne's further deferment.[29]
As for being a racist?
His Quote:
Wikipedia:
“I believe in white supremacy, until blacks are educated to the point of responsibility. I don't feel we did wrong in taking this great country away from them, [the Indians] if that's what you're asking. Our so-called stealing of this country from them was just a matter of survival. There were great numbers of people who needed new land, and the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it for themselves. [35] [36]
Wayne as well as Reagan were ardent anti-communist and vocal supporters of the House Un-American Activities Committee.
But the biggie is that: He was also a member of the conservative, anti-communist John Birch Society.[57] if you continue looking at his politics.
Look it up: there is one person that said he did not belong or never was a member but the person that said it is the current president of the John Birch Society: John McManus. Who are going to believe someone trying to hide that information or all the real info about him from the press? He did leave eventually after a disagreement in one of their issues.
Fred Chase Koch was one of the founding members and current Koch bothers are well contacted as well even though being more libertarian.
Wikipedia:
Members of the Koch family have given to libertarian policy and advocacy groups in the United States[5], including think tanks like the Heritage Foundation and the Cato Institute, and more recently Americans for Prosperity.[7] Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks are Koch-linked organizations that have been linked to the Tea Party movement.[8][9][10][11]
Wayne still had respect from all sorts of opposition:
Wikipedia:
“Abbie Hoffman, the radical of the 1960s, paid tribute to Wayne's singularity, saying, "I like Wayne's wholeness, his style. As for his politics, well — I suppose even cavemen felt a little admiration for the dinosaurs that were trying to gobble them up."[40]
………………………………….
His “The Green Berets” was a propaganda movie purposely made for recruiting. Problem at the end of the movie where he gives the little Vietnamese kid a fellow SF member beret who died says to the kid “This is what this is all about” regarding what is next and saving the kid from harm.
The both are at a beach looking at the sun setting and fading away.
What the Fu%k: the sun does not set in the west in Vietnam with the ocean; it faces east when the sun rises. That’s Hollywood for you.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2012 - 06:58am PT
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I love some of the comments on this thread.
But to equate South Park with Monty Python, whoa, that's a big step. But to each their own. Some people like free climbing, others like aid.
Remember, always look on the bright side of life...
And BTW, I was not criticizing John Wayne or anybody, I was just wondering and asking a question. Some posts on this thread have more or less answered my question(s).
But South Park, gagggggggg
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Nov 12, 2012 - 07:58am PT
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South Park is brilliant. If you don't watch the whole episode, you usually miss the true punch line.
John Wayne is dead. Has been for quite some time.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Nov 12, 2012 - 08:30am PT
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but how in the world did that crap South Park make it past one season?
South Park is for sophisticated audiences with higher-than-average IQs. Perhaps that is why you don't get it.
EDIT: Just kidding you
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MisterE
Social climber
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Nov 12, 2012 - 09:26am PT
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Patrick, we now live in a era where the History Channel is made up of shows like Ice Road Truckers and Swamp People. And TLC, which used to stand for the Learning Channel (which now stands for The Lowest Common IMO) is made up of even worse shows like Honey Boo Boo, Toddlers & Tiaras and Bada Bing Brides. Shwos like Jersey Shore, the Kardashians and Desperate Housewives can last several, several seasons.
In light of it all, South Park ain't half bad.
Yup. Plus there's some real learning about stuff hidden in the satire.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
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Sierra Rat Ledge, though you added that you were just joking...
First tested in eight grade at 222, they couldn't believe it, tested again, twice, both times at 189. IQ means sh#t, and is not a sign of intelligence. I struggle with Mensa questions. And I am struggling to find this month's rent.
Ambition and attitude mean more than aptitude in many cases.
If South Park is for people with high IQs, then I am certainly missing something. A brain, maybe?
EDIT
I was a Guinea pig in high school. Del Valle High School (Walnut Creek). They used me to wonder why I was underachieving. Underachieving? Heck, as I understand it I was the first sophomore in California, certainly in the Acalanes High School District, to be allowed to take Anatomy and Physiology, at that time the reserve for juniors and seniors. I was a biology assistant in ninth grade, not as a student as much as an assistant to the teacher Mr Innocenti.
I was the only one on the school newspaper to actually write serious articles, interviewing the likes of Jerome Waldie, then running for governor.
But in my sophomore year, they put me in a class... of one, me.
The next year the class expanded to a couple of more. The next year the "exercise" was expanded across the five school high school district, but I had graduated as a junior (sometimes wish I had stayed to be a senior). Went to community college instead of my senior year.
The California school system expanded the "experiment" statewide, so I am told and understand.
But look at me now, 189, pisshhh. BS to IQ tests.
I am near broke, I am a full-time carer for my fiancée, none of my novels or screenplays have sold, my acting career is in the doldrums, the only CV I am proud of is my media/journalism CV.
So if I don't "get" South Park, I guess my IQ is not 189 but -189.
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Michelle
Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
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Nov 12, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
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I am not wondering why it matters if celebrities serve but how many of you have.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Nov 12, 2012 - 02:20pm PT
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I am also a BIG fan of Beavis and Butthead, too.
Maybe THAT explains a lot..........
Once I almost asphyxiated from laughing when watching this episode of "Insect Court."
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2012 - 02:20pm PT
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Michelle
I was gung ho for supporting the Vietnam War when I was 10/11, I just wondered, in my stupid pre-adolescent naiveté, why they did not send convicts to fight instead of my next door neighbor.
Then in fifth grade, at St Mary’s Elementary School in Walnut Creek, California (a mixed school, teacher-wise, nuns and lay teachers), one day an Army jeep with two officers drove up, we could see this in the parking lot from our classroom.
Next thing you know, Mother Superior is in the room to ask our teacher, Mrs Burke, to come with her to the office.
We all crowded around the classroom door and a short while later Mrs Burke is running down the hall, crying.
Her son Patrick was killed in Vietnam.
(Mrs Burke was a very good teacher and I liked her - no not a schoolboy crush).
That is the day I turned against the war.
After getting kicked out of Catholic school I went to public school. I organized anti-war debates in J-High and high school.
But come April 1974, a month shy of my 18th b’day, I thought: “I am 1A, I could be drafted”. Since I wanted to go to med school, and since I was under the impression that if one enlisted, one could have a better chance of choosing a specialty than one drafted, I went to the local Marine recruiting office in Concord.
A long-haired anti-war seventeen-year-old approaches the recruiting sergeant to be told: “We do not have medics in the Marine Corps, we use Navy corpsman”.
That sort of deflated me. I mean, if I was going to serve, I wanted to be a Marine. Not Navy, Army or Air Force. I don’t know, perhaps some John Wayne “complex” on my part.
I didn’t get drafted in 1974 (last year of the draft) when I turned 18.
And I do not feel any less of a person for not serving in the US armed services and I am still anti-war.
I started this thread just wondering, get it, “wondering”, why Wayne did not see duty.
I am proud that my nephew and godson Benjamin has done two tours of duty with the USMC in Afghanistan, often under fire, especially as a point man. I am not proud of that war, but of the boy, nay, MAN. Yes, I am proud, like his mother (who is like a sister to me), and my late brother.
Michelle, one does not have to serve in one's country military to be either patriotic or loyal to one's country.
Do not confuse the issue. But for those who serve with distinction, my hat is off to them. To those who sully the US military tradition, as a minority have over the years, jail them.
EDIT
SLR, I, I... I don't mind Beavis and Butthead. Not the top of my viewing list by far, but at least better animation that SP.
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Michelle
Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
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Nov 12, 2012 - 02:24pm PT
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I'm not criticizing you or anyone, just asking.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
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Michelle, I think I understand. Coolaboola
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
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I TRIED to join up but wasn't allowed due to criminal background and age...
Locker, I think that I have read about you, you ran rackets with Al Capone, didn't you?
Though I could be confusing you with somebody else. The timeline is not right.
But, that planeload of grass that crashed in Tuolumne, you weren't involved in...
...nah. ;-)
EDIT
Sully
The South Park episode mocking Facebook is a keeper. Now that I may have well appreciated, since I am not a believer in Facebook, Twitter or any of those "social network" sites. Though I have signed up to LinkedIn, more out of necessity than desire.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Nov 12, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
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During WWII John Wayne elected to stay in Hollywood, chase skirts and drink bourbon on the rocks. So much for the "Sands of Iwo Jima".
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
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John Wayne didn't enlist or get into the military because it wasn't his destiny.
Everyone is destined to go a certain way in their life.
We don't have full control .......
Werner, I am taking that to a new thread.
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plund
Social climber
OD, MN
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Nov 12, 2012 - 03:38pm PT
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South Park episode....Jesus (skinny & dweeby) vs. Satan (monstrous & massive)in a no-holds-barred brawl....
The whole town bets against Jesus....Satan takes a dive, and all the town's money as the only bettor for Jesus...
Don't care where you're from, that's just funny, especially the way Satan crows "FOOLS!!"
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 12, 2012 - 07:11pm PT
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Beavis: I get it, man. Huh...He said always look on the bright side. Huh...hah...huh...which one is my bright side?
Butthead: You don't got that side, stupid.
I really get bent when Mr. Potato Head's parts get stuck in my bare feet. That spud gang is no goddam use to anyone. My God, my young kids're swallowin' their little plastic body parts, wife's a reckless back seat driver, his dog leaves calling cards on my lawn, his kid's blind and useless--got no eyes from birth, he calls the cops on us for the silliest reasons, too...
But he's not heavy, he's my neighbor.--Jack N. Beanstaco, Mound City, NV
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Nov 12, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
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The South Park episode mocking Facebook is a keeper. The recent one with citizens removing Livestrong and WWJD wristbands paired with the possibilty that Jesus used performance enhancing drugs is hilarious. I'm taking my kids to The Book of Mormon in SF real soon.
God, I love your cultural insights. Why didn't I have a Mom like you!
I thought I was all hunkered down and stealthy about watching South Park.
Susan
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 12, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
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John Wayne killed Kenny.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
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Just to add to my earlier post regarding IQ and aptitude...
as I already wrote ambition and attitude is more important, and in my eyes that means application, applying oneself with whatever you were given in life and using it to the best of your ability. Sadly, I don't think that I have achieved that.
Now on the lighter side, did Beavis and Butthead ever take on the South Park kids? Was Monty really a python? Does Homer know that Bart is really his reincarnated great-grandfather?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 13, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
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Monty python ( no snake no circus) and South Park are linked. So park has done all kinds of MP homages and has had several mp guest apparrances .....
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2012 - 03:48pm PT
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Stich, sounds about right. If Wayne wanted real glory he would have done what other 'stars' did, get on the front line. But easy for me to say, I've never been in a war.
Still he was a fine actor, technically, a credit many do not give him. But, making gung-ho propaganda films from the comfort of LA is not the same as my uncles experienced in both the South Pacific and North Africa.
He should have bucked himself up and said: "I want combat duty, not making friggin films to boost morale". A big morale booster would have been the Duke actually seeing some fighting.
I am still a big fan of his, cinema wise, but his politics were not to my liking, to say the least.
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