Climber Built Anchors on a Wall

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mooser

Trad climber

seattle

Nov 8, 2012 - 09:21am PT

I'd get a good night's sleep off that sweet set-up (assuming I didn't have to change my shorts because of the yawning void below me...).

There's a difference between a biner-to-biner set-up like Mark's (which is in a completely static arrangement), and clipping a draw to the biner of a piece while leading.

Mark Hudon

Trad climber

Hood River, OR

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2012 - 10:08am PT

Thanks and yes, posting this to generate discussion and learning (on all sides, I want to learn too!)
Scott, no this was just for the ledge, Max belayed over on the bolts in the morning.

Roger Brown

climber

Oceano, California

Nov 8, 2012 - 10:56am PT

Flanders and I climbed the West Face Rt. on El Cap. a couple weeks ago. After the second pitch, most of the anchors were climber built when Doug ran out of rope. 70 m ropes were used. We climbed it wall style. 2 days fixing, 4 days on the route.

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Nov 8, 2012 - 11:09am PT

In the spirit of commentary, here's something I think a person could learn from Mark: Given a crack with continuously good placements, move the gear to effectively distribute the load, rather than placing the gear and then trying to accommodate the placements with improvised rigging.

As for biner-on-biner, it is, as with any "safety mantra," it is a good idea for it not to be a mantra but rather based on actual issues that need to be avoided. The old (very old at this point) prohibition about biner-on-biner came from the days long before quickdraws when climbers sometimes used two and even three biners on a piece (piton in those days) to alleviate rope drag. In those cases, it was found, unfortunately from hard experience, that during a leader fall the biners could twist enough for one to open the gate of another and so completely detach. It isn't at all easy for this to happen; you need the impacts of a diagonal fall and appropriate rope motions. This is how Mark Powell severely broke his ankle, an injury that changed the course of his climbing career and created lifelong health problems for him.

None of the dynamics of a leader fall are present in an anchor that is simply being loaded---even if a piece pulls---as long as the rigging does not involve discredited sliding X's or analogous "equalizers." In such cases, the dynamics that might produce biner unclipping are not an issue and there is nothing the matter with clipping biners to biners, as long as the process does not impose an outward load on any of the gates.

The only thing about Mark's anchor I would have adjusted is that two (I think) of the gates appear to be against the rock; if that is accurate I think I would have flipped those biners.

Prod

Trad climber

Nov 8, 2012 - 11:19am PT

Is there anyone who would refuse to sleep hanging from this anchor deeming it "unsafe"?

Yep, my wife. I find it best not to argue with her....

Prod.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Nov 8, 2012 - 11:31am PT

NINE cams?! What were you thinking of, man? Three should have been enough. He he.

More seriously, the only concern one could possibly have about such a belay would be in a violent storm, where the the anchors are repeatedly loaded and bounced around. Cams have some tendency to move in that situation. Also in earthquakes.

thekidcormier

Gym climber

squamish, b.c.

Dec 11, 2012 - 11:47pm PT

-Bomber anchor for a 3 man bivy

-crap I got my lead line stuck behind the porta ledge!

Testing out upward pull on my lead anchor before dismantling my cleaning anchor during my rope solo OnSight of the South Arête

philo

Trad climber

Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?

Dec 12, 2012 - 12:02am PT

Bolt anchors? We don''t need no steenkin' bolt anchors!

wstmrnclmr

Trad climber

Bolinas, CA

Dec 12, 2012 - 01:27am PT

Hmmmm. Climber built anchors? Never heard of 'em.

Mark Hudon

Trad climber

Hood River, OR

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2012 - 10:44am PT

That's the way it is these days, Kevin, "convinience" anchors are standard. Aside from that, people aren't confident enough in themselves and their gear to trust themselves building their own anchors. I'll bet if all truely unnecessary 3 3/8" bolt anchors were gone, big wall ascents would drop by 50% or more.
I was telling a buddy of my first hanging bivy, in hammocks, hanging from pitons we had placed and he was simply aghast!
That skill set has mostly vanished, the walls are a different place than they were in our time!

hoipolloi

climber

A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi

Dec 12, 2012 - 11:34am PT

I think the most valuable aspect of convenience anchors is the increased safety. I love climbing hard and scary sh#t (why? I couldn't tell you), but I also have a mindset that the belay should be the "safe place." I am all for building anchors when and where it realistically makes sense, but the 2 copper head and #1 LA belay just sounds stupid to me. But, I wouldn't be too put off by poor gear and 1 3/8" El Cap is often overkill, 3-4 (or more) 3/8 at every belay is a bit crazy.

On the flip side though, those fat anchors make speed climbing much safer and more feasible. Although, it could still happen without them, for sure.

hoipolloi

climber

A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi

Dec 12, 2012 - 11:37am PT

Ahh, that does remind me.

How about this great anchor!

Mark Hudon

Trad climber

Hood River, OR

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2012 - 12:57pm PT

Kevin, remember when the whole description in the guide for the upper corner on the Muir was two sentences?

thekidcormier

Gym climber

squamish, b.c.

Dec 12, 2012 - 01:45pm PT

Look at this mess my friend nick put together... I'm surprised he didn't die!

Fish Boy

Social climber

Squeamish

Dec 12, 2012 - 09:47pm PT

Looks good to me.

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Dec 12, 2012 - 10:51pm PT

Fortunately the wire on wiregates can handle the load of a silent partner...

The rest does not matter.

Guangzhou

Trad climber

Asia, Indonesia, East Java

Dec 12, 2012 - 11:31pm PT

I think it was Mark above who commented on bolted belays and how less climbers would do walls if they were not there.

I have to agree. Some of the guys I climb with bounce all over on two bolt belays but barely weight a gear belay.

Eman