Discussion Topic |
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| Messages 1 - 61 of total 61 in this topic |
Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 7, 2012 - 08:42pm PT
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This spot, the top of the first pitch of Native Son (photo by Tom Evans) is a totally climber built anchor, a rarity on walls these days.
It was all cams in absolutely bombproof rock! I had probably nine cams tied up in three sets of three. Cheyne jugged off the bottom three, I hauled off the middle three and the top three backed up the whole affair. None of the cams were too small, mostly medium and a few big ones. It was a bit of an awkward belay, being all hanging close to the corner but it was sure fun to have built it and used it (not to mention it's airy position).
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
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Here a mostly climber built anchor on Lost In America. There were three good 3/8" bolts to the right but they were a bit close together. We were bivying here and I like to have the bags hanging just past the end of the ledge. I placed these cams and moved them up and down till they equalized the load onto each other.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Very classy, Mr. Hudon, very classy.
Edit: How do you like the Dragons?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2012 - 08:53pm PT
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The Totem cams? Dang! When you really needed something to stick, they were the go-to cam!
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Bowser
Social climber
Durango CO
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Not too fond of the biner to biner.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2012 - 09:14pm PT
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Biner to biner? What is going to happen?
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Not too fond of the biner to biner.
Do tell. I've been wanting to hear the argument against it. Most people when pressed will say, "It's just... you know... bad"
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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In this case, the argument could be that there is a 3 point load on one of the carabiners. That being said, I would have NO ISSUE with that anchor.
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froodish
Social climber
Portland, Oregon
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I wouldn't have any problem trusting that anchor either, but aside from a possible three way load mentioned up thread, if shifting/twisting is a factor, they can pretty easily unclip. That said, I clipped many a bolt with a biner-on-biner arrangement before QDs became popular an never had them unclip.
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Googlymoogly
climber
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In this case, the argument could be that there is a 3 point load on one of the carabiners. Since the direction of pull is really only 2 directions I wouldn't say it counts as tri-loaded. So as you said, not a big deal.
I always thought part of the idea was that metal to metal could get cross-loaded easier however this does seem to be one of those rules every climber has heard and that classes tend to teach but it never is really supported with a reason.
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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That quickdraw chain linking all three pieces could be cleaned up with a sling equalizing them instead.
Just sayin'.
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MisterE
Social climber
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This guy is killing the walls in great style, and you want to pick apart his anchor?
Get real, people.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2012 - 09:43pm PT
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That quickdraw chain linking all three pieces could be cleaned up with a sling.
Yes, but would it be increase your safety by a significant factor or would your improvement basically be a non issue?
Is there anyone who would refuse to sleep hanging from this anchor deeming it "unsafe"?
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Not with the three 3/8" bolts nearby!
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Ljohnson
Social climber
The land of ice, snow and rocks
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A wall anchor built from 3 cams and 2 QD's, for hauling only, backed up to two bolts by the rope clove hitched to biners.
Simple
Efficient
Bomber
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
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Hell, if I had three or four more cams as good as those further up the crack and no bolts, I'd be happy as a clam and sleep like a baby!
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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I would sleep on that all night long!
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WBraun
climber
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Way homo!
Ya should have yarded out the 3 bolts and belayed on the cams only .....
:-)
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hairyapeman
Trad climber
Fres-yes
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I've hung from less! I'd trust it....but secretly clip into one of those bolts with my daisy while I sleep!
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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This guy is killing the walls in great style, and you want to pick apart his anchor?
He's the one flaunting his anchor and asking for input . . . whatever Mr. Eeeee.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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I've had a single 1/4 inch bolt backed up with a few heads. It was kind of spooky.
This whole convenience anchor mindset that throws three fatties at every belay is kind of dumb, IMO. It changes the route big time.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2012 - 09:57pm PT
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Yes, flaunting to get a discussion going!
At least it's climbing, eh?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
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My first hanging bivy ever was completely from pitons we had placed.
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WBraun
climber
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Climber built anchors on a wall is a sub world like talking about hysteresis in analog comparators years ago.
I built one once with 11 pins equalized around an expanding flake and hauled off of it.
The second ascent got there and went into a WTF happened here.
They blasted in 2 bolts immediately, LOL ..... I don't blame em .....
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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To flaunt is human it has been said . . . nobody said this was a negative quality.
Thank you for all of your contributions to climbing and the sharing of your experiences.
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thekidcormier
Gym climber
squamish, b.c.
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You ARE most Definitely going to die..... eventually.
But dont let that slow you down, you;re on an old man roll!
KEEP IT UP!
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2012 - 10:16pm PT
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Kalimon, I was taking it lightly! I understood what you were saying.
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Hud Peace Now!
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MisterE
Social climber
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I'm sorry too.
Just pointing out that this isn't RC.com - my bad...
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Enthusiast
Sport climber
Port Townsend WA
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Bomber pro, hope you had fun hauling
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jeez, climbers these days. Wusses.
South Face of Watkins, Sheraton ledge, after sunset, circa 1983. Led last pitch to the big ledge. A big party of sleepy japs were draped all over the ledge like seals flopped on a beach. Could find no worthy cracks. I placed a slider nut in a parallel, expanding crack for hauling (yes it opened a bit when the crack widened a tad as I began pulling) while my partner jumared on a Chouinard skyhook. Nothing else. To be fair, the edge the hook was was so perfectly formed that it could have been the model for Yvon's design.
Funny, that might have been the last route we did together.....
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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hey Mark I quickly went through one of your vids lately and you said something about the DMM Revolver... can you remind me quickly where you find that piece useful? it seems awfully niche
and yeah, yer gonna die for sure with biner-on-biner action
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2012 - 11:07pm PT
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Anywhere you want to reduce the drag. I use it when I'm feeding my ropes into my rope bags and when I need a redirect for lifting the bags or anything else heavy.
On Iron Hawk, I needed to move my fully set up ledge, I think I wanted to move it to a higher bolt. I created a quick 2:1 with some cord, redirected the cord down through the Revolver to a sling I could stand in, applied some weight and lifted the ledge up to it's new position effortlessly.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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I generally use a #3 camalot and call it good.
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Skot433
Big Wall climber
Corona CA.
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I'd sleep very comfortably on any anchor Mark built
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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TFPU Mark!! Really cool seeing it done especially on such a nice looking line! I'm actually able to learn from stuff like this and improve. Keep it coming please.
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Bowser
Social climber
Durango CO
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I just said I was not fond of it.
His anchor is bomber. But if you post it, you are asking for comments.
I was taught 20 years ago buy a long time hardman that it was not good to link biner to biner. I guess it is something that has stuck with me.
I think his reasoning it that if the biners somehow twisted against each other there could be an issue. Plus it takes another link out of the system.
TB
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micronut
Trad climber
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Sexy set-up Mark. Very clean. Did you end up placing anything for an upward pull when the leader took off? What's your thought on that? Do you always try to rig an upward piece. Sometimes on long trad routes I get lazy and dont, especially if I'm standing kinda flat footed on a little ledge or something. Bad form probably. Whats your protocol on walls?
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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So Bowser, if I understand you correctly; the system is better with MORE links?
Not sure I can buy that, good buddy. The fewer the better in my book.
Fewer links, fewer to fail.
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bigwall shitter
Social climber
the wild west
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I wonder if this one was good for a upward pull?
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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I'd get a good night's sleep off that sweet set-up (assuming I didn't have to change my shorts because of the yawning void below me...).
There's a difference between a biner-to-biner set-up like Mark's (which is in a completely static arrangement), and clipping a draw to the biner of a piece while leading.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2012 - 10:08am PT
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Thanks and yes, posting this to generate discussion and learning (on all sides, I want to learn too!)
Scott, no this was just for the ledge, Max belayed over on the bolts in the morning.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Flanders and I climbed the West Face Rt. on El Cap. a couple weeks ago. After the second pitch, most of the anchors were climber built when Doug ran out of rope. 70 m ropes were used. We climbed it wall style. 2 days fixing, 4 days on the route.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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In the spirit of commentary, here's something I think a person could learn from Mark: Given a crack with continuously good placements, move the gear to effectively distribute the load, rather than placing the gear and then trying to accommodate the placements with improvised rigging.
As for biner-on-biner, it is, as with any "safety mantra," it is a good idea for it not to be a mantra but rather based on actual issues that need to be avoided. The old (very old at this point) prohibition about biner-on-biner came from the days long before quickdraws when climbers sometimes used two and even three biners on a piece (piton in those days) to alleviate rope drag. In those cases, it was found, unfortunately from hard experience, that during a leader fall the biners could twist enough for one to open the gate of another and so completely detach. It isn't at all easy for this to happen; you need the impacts of a diagonal fall and appropriate rope motions. This is how Mark Powell severely broke his ankle, an injury that changed the course of his climbing career and created lifelong health problems for him.
None of the dynamics of a leader fall are present in an anchor that is simply being loaded---even if a piece pulls---as long as the rigging does not involve discredited sliding X's or analogous "equalizers." In such cases, the dynamics that might produce biner unclipping are not an issue and there is nothing the matter with clipping biners to biners, as long as the process does not impose an outward load on any of the gates.
The only thing about Mark's anchor I would have adjusted is that two (I think) of the gates appear to be against the rock; if that is accurate I think I would have flipped those biners.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Is there anyone who would refuse to sleep hanging from this anchor deeming it "unsafe"?
Yep, my wife. I find it best not to argue with her....
Prod.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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NINE cams?! What were you thinking of, man? Three should have been enough. He he.
More seriously, the only concern one could possibly have about such a belay would be in a violent storm, where the the anchors are repeatedly loaded and bounced around. Cams have some tendency to move in that situation. Also in earthquakes.
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thekidcormier
Gym climber
squamish, b.c.
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Dec 11, 2012 - 11:47pm PT
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-Bomber anchor for a 3 man bivy
-crap I got my lead line stuck behind the porta ledge!
Testing out upward pull on my lead anchor before dismantling my cleaning anchor during my rope solo OnSight of the South Arête
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 12, 2012 - 12:02am PT
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Bolt anchors? We don''t need no steenkin' bolt anchors!
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Dec 12, 2012 - 01:27am PT
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Hmmmm. Climber built anchors? Never heard of 'em.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2012 - 10:44am PT
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That's the way it is these days, Kevin, "convinience" anchors are standard. Aside from that, people aren't confident enough in themselves and their gear to trust themselves building their own anchors. I'll bet if all truely unnecessary 3 3/8" bolt anchors were gone, big wall ascents would drop by 50% or more.
I was telling a buddy of my first hanging bivy, in hammocks, hanging from pitons we had placed and he was simply aghast!
That skill set has mostly vanished, the walls are a different place than they were in our time!
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hoipolloi
climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
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Dec 12, 2012 - 11:34am PT
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I think the most valuable aspect of convenience anchors is the increased safety. I love climbing hard and scary sh#t (why? I couldn't tell you), but I also have a mindset that the belay should be the "safe place." I am all for building anchors when and where it realistically makes sense, but the 2 copper head and #1 LA belay just sounds stupid to me. But, I wouldn't be too put off by poor gear and 1 3/8" El Cap is often overkill, 3-4 (or more) 3/8 at every belay is a bit crazy.
On the flip side though, those fat anchors make speed climbing much safer and more feasible. Although, it could still happen without them, for sure.
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hoipolloi
climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
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Dec 12, 2012 - 11:37am PT
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Ahh, that does remind me.
How about this great anchor!
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
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Kevin, remember when the whole description in the guide for the upper corner on the Muir was two sentences?
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thekidcormier
Gym climber
squamish, b.c.
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Dec 12, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
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Look at this mess my friend nick put together... I'm surprised he didn't die!
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Fish Boy
Social climber
Squeamish
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Dec 12, 2012 - 09:47pm PT
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Looks good to me.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Dec 12, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
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Fortunately the wire on wiregates can handle the load of a silent partner...
The rest does not matter.
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Guangzhou
Trad climber
Asia, Indonesia, East Java
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Dec 12, 2012 - 11:31pm PT
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I think it was Mark above who commented on bolted belays and how less climbers would do walls if they were not there.
I have to agree. Some of the guys I climb with bounce all over on two bolt belays but barely weight a gear belay.
Eman
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Dec 12, 2012 - 11:34pm PT
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I love my gear and it loves me..
SERIOUSLY???? people fear gear belays?
Guess they never pulled bolts out by hand.
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ryankelly
Trad climber
el portal
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Dec 13, 2012 - 12:04am PT
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Anyone else with photos of hauling on gear belays?
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Fish Boy
Social climber
Squeamish
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Dec 13, 2012 - 01:53am PT
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I hauled on that one last page. And self belayed :D
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thekidcormier
Gym climber
squamish, b.c.
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Dec 13, 2012 - 02:09am PT
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I hauled gear bag on the left two and 300lb of kit on the PowerPoint on the left, my portaledge in the Center, lead line anchored of to jug on the right, and(out of frame) parters ledge anchor.
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| Messages 1 - 61 of total 61 in this topic |
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