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Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 5, 2012 - 03:29am PT
I would bet my life on one thing. If Bluey was born in Palestine, he'd be all for kicking ass, just like he is here in the US, where nobody took our homes or dropped bombs in our neighborhood, or restricted our every move.

Karl, do you support terrorist states..?


Dude, this notion of "Terrorist state" is a ploy by Israel and major powers to differentiate between major military powers, who kill 10x as many women and children as the "Terrorists" they call it Collateral damage.

Our drones strikes kill more innocents in a year than the Palestinians have killed in 10 years. They just call them "Militants" no matter what

I support Justice on all sides. It's sad when injustice creates a situation where more injustice is born

Peace

karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 5, 2012 - 04:12am PT
I think the example is a little distant for Bluering. Imagine bro, that for some crazy reason the powers were different and Arabs came and forced you out of your home, to move to isolated part of Nevada where you couldn't leave, work was scarce, and the Arabs shook you down constantly and dropped bombs on your hood.

And the Arabs made noises about granting you your own state there in Nevada, with their settlements mixed in everywhere and Las Vegas was quickly becoming all theirs.

What would you do? Just wait to negotiate even when you realized the real arab agenda was to squeeze you out, not make peace

Peace

Karl
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2012 - 09:50am PT
Well, that's neither here nor there. really whats going on rises above partisan politics. Here's one today. At a time of limited budgets, the US gov't still wants unlimited power and are willing to keep paying for it at your expense Karl.


"'Everyone in US under virtual surveillance' - NSA whistleblower

The FBI records the emails of nearly all US citizens, including members of congress, according to NSA whistleblower William Binney. In an interview with RT, he warned that the government can use this information against anyone.

Binney, one of the best mathematicians and code breakers in the history of the National Security Agency, resigned in 2001. He claimed he no longer wanted to be associated with alleged violations of the Constitution, such as how the FBI engages in widespread and pervasive surveillance through powerful devices called 'Naris.'

This year, Binney received the Callaway award, an annual prize that recognizes those who champion constitutional rights and American values at great risk to their personal or professional lives.

RT: In light of the Petraeus/Allen scandal while the public is so focused on the details of their family drama, one may argue that the real scandal in this whole story is the power, the reach of the surveillance state. I mean if we take General Allen Ė thousands of his personal e-mails have been sifted through private correspondence. Itís not like any of those men was planning an attack on America. Does the scandal prove the notion that there is no such thing as privacy in a surveillance state?

William Binney: Yes, thatís what Iíve been basically saying for quite some time, is that the FBI has access to the data collected, which is basically the emails of virtually everybody in the country. And the FBI has access to it. All the congressional members are on the surveillance too, no one is excluded. They are all included. So, yes, this can happen to anyone. If they become a target for whatever reason Ė they are targeted by the government, the government can go in, or the FBI, or other agencies of the government, they can go into their database, pull all that data collected on them over the years, and we analyze it all. So, we have to actively analyze everything theyíve done for the last 10 years at least.

RT: And itís not just about those, who could be planning, who could be a threat to national security, but also those, who could be justÖ

WB: Itís everybody. The Naris device, if it takes in the entire line, so it takes in all the data. In fact they advertised they can process the lines at session rates, which means 10-gigabit lines. I forgot the name of the device (itís not the Naris) Ė the other one does it at 10 gigabits. Thatís why they're building Bluffdale [database facility], because they have to have more storage, because they canít figure out whatís important, so they are just storing everything there. So, emails are going to be stored there in the future, but right now stored in different places around the country. But it is being collected Ė and the FBI has access to it.

RT: You mean itís being collected in bulk without even requesting providers?

WB: Yes.

RT: Then what about Google, you know, releasing this biannual transparency report and saying that the governmentís demands for personal data is at an all-time high and for all of those requesting the US, Google says they complied with the governmentís demands 90 percent of the time. But they are still saying that they are making the request, itís not like itís all being funneled into that storage. What do you say to that?

WB: I would assume that itís just simply another source for the same data they are already collecting. My line is in declarations in a court about the 18-T facility in San Francisco, that documented the NSA room inside that AST&T facility, where they had Naris devices to collect data off the fiber optic lines inside the United States. So, thatís kind of a powerful device, that would collect everything it was being sent. It could collect on the order over of 100 billion 1,000-character emails a day. One device.

RT: You say they sift through billions of e-mails. I wonder how do they prioritize? How do they filter it?

WB: I donít think they are filtering it. They are just storing it. I think itís just a matter of selecting when they want it. So, if they want to target you, they would take your attributes, go into that database and pull out all your data.

RT: Were you on the target list?

WB: Oh, sure! I believe Iíve been on it for quite a few years. So I keep telling them everything I think of them in my email. So that when they want to read it theyíll understand what I think of them.

RT: Do you think we all should leave messages for the NSA mail box?

WB: Sure!

RT: You blew the whistle on the agency when George W. Bush was the president. With President Obama in office, in your opinion, has anything changed at the agency, in the surveillance program? In what direction is this administration moving?

WB: The change is itís getting worse. They are doing more. He is supporting the building of the Bluffdale facility, which is over two billion dollars they are spending on storage room for data. That means that they are collecting a lot more now and need more storage for it. That facility by my calculations that I submitted to the court for the Electronic Frontiers Foundation against NSA would hold on the order of 5 zettabytes of data. Just that current storage capacity is being advertised on the web that you can buy. And thatís not talking about what they have in the near future.

RT: What are they going to do with all of that? Ok, they are storing something. Why should anybody be concerned?

WB: If you ever get on the enemies list, like Petraeus did orÖ for whatever reason, than you can be drained into that surveillance.

RT: Do you think they wouldÖ General Petraeus, who was idolized by the same administration? Or General Allen?

WB: There are certainly some questions, that have to be asked, like why would they target it to begin with? What law were they breaking?

RT: In case of General Petraeus one would argue that there could have been security breaches. Something like that. But with General Allen Ė I donít quite understand, because when they were looking into his private emails to this woman.

WB: Thatís the whole point. I am not sure what the internal politics isÖ Thatís part of the program. This government doesnít want things in the public. Itís not a transparent government. Whatever the reason or the motivation was, I donít really know, but I certainly think that there was something going on in the background that made them target those fellows. Otherwise why would they be doing it? There is no crime there.

RT: It seems that the public is divided between those, who think that the government surveillance program violates their civil liberties, and those who say, 'Iíve nothing to hide. So, why should I care?' What do you say to those who think that it shouldnt concern them.

WB: The problem is if they think they are not doing anything thatís wrong, they donít get to define that. The central government does, the central government defines what is right and wrong and whether or not they target you. So, itís not up to the individuals. Even if they think they aren't doing something wrong, if their position on something is against what the administration has, then they could easily become a target.

RT: Tell me about the most outrageous thing that you came across during your work at the NSA.

WB: The violations of the constitution and any number of laws that existed at the time. That was the part that I could not be associated with. Thatís why I left. They were building social networks on who is communicating and with whom inside this country. So that the entire social network of everybody, of every US citizen was being compiled overtime. So, they are taking from one company alone roughly 320 million records a day. Thatís probably accumulated probably close to 20 trillion over the years.

The original program that we put together to handle this to be able to identify terrorists anywhere in the world and alert anyone that they were in jeopardy. We would have been able to do that by encrypting everybodyís communications except those who were targets. So, in essence you would protect their identities and the information about them until you could develop probable cause, and once you showed your probable cause, then you could do a decrypt and target them. And we could do that and isolate those people all alone. It wasnít a problem at all. There was no difficulty in that.

RT: It sounds very difficult and very complicated. Easier to take everything in andÖ

WB: No. Itís easier to use the graphing techniques, if you will, for the relationships for the world to filter out data, so that you donít have to handle all that data. And it doesnít burden you with a lot more information to look at, than you really need to solve the problem.

RT: Do you think that the agency doesnít have the filters now?

WB: No.

RT: You have received the Callaway award for civic courage. Congratulations! On the website and in the press release it says: ďIt is awarded to those, who stand out for constitutional rights and American values at great risk to their personal or professional lives.Ē Under the code of spy ethics Ė I donít know if there is such a thing Ė your former colleagues, they probably look upon you as a traitor. How do you look back at them?

WB: Thatís pretty easy. They are violating the foundation of this entire country. Why this entire government was formed? Itís founded with the Constitution and the rights were given to the people in the country under that Constitution. They are in violation of that. And under executive order 13526, section 1.7 Ė you can not classify information to just cover up a crime, which this is, and that was signed by President Obama. Also President Bush signed it earlier as an executive order, a very similar one. If any of this comes into Supreme Court and they rule it unconstitutional, then the entire house of cards of the government falls.

RT: What are the chances of that? What are the odds?

WB: The government is doing the best they can to try to keep it out of court. And, of course, we are trying to do the best we can to get into court. So, we decided it deserves a ruling from the Supreme Court. Ultimately the court is supposed to protect the Constitution. All these people in the government take an oath to defend the Constitution. And they are not living up to the oath of office. "


http://rt.com/usa/news/surveillance-spying-e-mail-citizens-178/
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 6, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
Ron, dude, give it up, you're like a rabid parrot except you have all the facts wrong.
Jolly Roger

Trad climber
here and there
Dec 6, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
Ron's paying attention. Which I can't say for most hear
Jolly Roger

Trad climber
here and there
Dec 6, 2012 - 09:48pm PT
With one giant caveat..Ö

Both Iran and Hamas are against zionism.

We should be too!


See jews against zionism.


Also see Rockefellars correspondence with rothschild regarding the internet.

It's comming
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 6, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
Electronic surveillance is a complex deal on a lot of fronts.

First, technology has greatly been outpacing the law.

Second, few folks are going to commit crimes or acts of terror without a digital footprint somewhere along the way.

Third, we are now by and large a digital society; protecting that society and the nation must unavoidably have a digital component as well as our technology is unfortunately built on a vulnerable foundation from the chips on out to the network and devices.

Overall, this issue is one of a myriad of issues we are wrestling with related to the 'newness' of these technologies and their use in our society and lives. It will take decades to sort out how we are going to live in relationship to these technologies.

You can spout constitution this and constitution that, but hey, get serious, no one back then had the slightest inkling what was coming down the pike. That the police, military, intelligence agency have run amok with it is to be expected to some extent and you can also assume a pendulum is swinging here and at a certain point it will force these issues up the judicial system an issue at a time which, again, will take decades.

And there are unavoidable trade-offs in the use of technology. For instance, the only way to make computing secure is to toss everything we do now and re-engineer it from the chips up with security in mind which is basically a complete makeover of our entire technology stack. You also have to be able to authenticate and authorize all use of cpu, storage, network, and device resources or you're right back in the shitter. But to do all that you might as well issue everyone a national identity card as it will all but be the same thing when you buy a secure device.

With regard to the Narus systems, the technical challenges are less the capture and more around storage (even transient storage) and analysis. Is it possible to collect, store, and analyze all the communications of the populace of NYC for say a day? Maybe, but that analysis would take more way than a day which pretty much puts you behind the curve day one. About all you can do in real time is some pretty gross key word alerting, but beyond that you have to be able to narrow the scope of what you are looking for to in order to really have a shot at being successful finding a drop of water in that ocean of data. And you'd probably have to be able to narrow down the search scope pretty fast or the data you're hoping for will have scrolled into oblivion at the other end of whatever their storage period is.

Is it a concern, sure, but I do have some faith it will get sorted out in time and cases like Patraeus and Allen will help insure it get's sorted out.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 7, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
Had to laugh when I ran accross this bid advertisement today

Searchlight NV is Dingy Harry Reed's home town.

There's an RFB out to put locking covers on all the manholes.

I guess thievery goes with the territory.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 7, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
Ron, dude, you're the only belligerent I run across in daily life and not one who really trucks much with reality.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 10, 2012 - 12:48pm PT
Palestine? Gaza? WTF?

How about Pine Ridge?

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 10, 2012 - 12:56pm PT
Another SEAL member kia in Afghanistan while rescuing an American Doctor being held there...

What do you think, should we just get out of Afghanistan? We getting nothing for ourselves there and as soon as we leave, whenever that is, they're going back to whatever they want. Why are we wasting lives and money there?

Peace

Karl
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 10, 2012 - 01:27pm PT
The Democrat paradise.




Why work?

Let someone else do that.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 10, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
Why work?

Let someone else do that.


I know right? Like the blue states? You do know which states suck off the teat the most eh?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 10, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
^^^ Brought to you by the 2016 Republican Crash and Burn Campaign.
WBraun

climber
Dec 10, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
Here's a weird one.

Intelligence Organizations Partner with Internet Crime

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/12/09/scamsters-spies-and-trolls-an-internet-story/
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
Karl said:
"Dude, this notion of "Terrorist state" is a ploy by Israel and major powers to differentiate between major military powers, who kill 10x as many women and children as the "Terrorists" they call it Collateral damage.

Our drones strikes kill more innocents in a year than the Palestinians have killed in 10 years. They just call them "Militants" no matter what"

I won't disagree on the drone strikes. I'm bothered that the President, who claimed to be a "constitutional scholar" is using them to kill innocent American civilians because he decides he should. As far as your support of Palestine. Karl, sometime you just have to pick a side and do your best. I keep seeing you supporting the Palestinians (Philo as well). Maybe you read this today in the news. Mashaal, the leader of Hamas, has just effectively re-iterated that he will not negotiate the fact that all of Israel is theirs, and that the Zionists need to move elsewhere. This is the link to the Arab version, of course, somehow the Jewish version, whereby they feel that full translation is that they will be snuffed, is more alarmist.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/12/20121284378161786.html

You can only pick one Karl, "justice for all" can only be had by voting for Israel:

Jew
Muslim

Pick one only. That's the choice that the Palestinians are demanding. If you pick Jew, things continue as they are. Where Muslim citizens of Israel can vote and are equal to Jews. (of course there are examples of discrimination don't bother listing them all, it's no different in this country - don't make me list examples) Pick Muslim and the Jews will need swimming lessons before they are forced into the Mediterranean. Doing nothing is not a choice, it is choosing death to the Jews. Israel is the only country the Jews have. Read the Hams charter: "jews get out of Palestine (Israel) alive or dead" is an accurate summation.

Hamas doesn't want to give an inch here, there is no negotiating or compromising. Kill or be killed and GTFOut is being pitched by Mashaal, and this has always been a reoccurring theme from Hamas starting with their charter. No compromise.What are the Israelis suppose to do? Walk peacefully into the ovens so that Hamas can rule the only part of the middle east not controlled by Muslims already? The fact that Israel is a democracy and that the Muslim Israeli citizens can vote makes a difference to you does it not?

It's an easy choice for me, every other country in that area is already Muslim, and they have trouble getting along with each other, let alone with us, no matter what brand of religious intolerance they exhibit and support. I vote support for Israel, which is also a vote for democracy and the rule of rational law.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 10, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
TGT, show me how to get $168 a day.

SNAP Food stamps are about $4 a day for a single person.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 10, 2012 - 01:52pm PT
I'm bothered that the President, who claimed to be a "constitutional scholar" is using them to kill innocent American civilians because he decides he should.

Ok dude, I gotta know exactly which "innocent" civilians the president has been whacking with drone strikes.

How about just a modicum of care in what kind of bullshit you write?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
Talking the 16 year old boy Bruce: an unarmed US civi, and his friend who were killed in Yemen in the Al Alawaki strike. The President has reiterated exactly what I stated above that it is his right to make the call to murder or execute as he choses, and he reviews suggested targets weekly he has said.

Werner, if that is anywhere close to true, how long to you think that will stay up? LOL. BTW, talk about houey. Obama was chosen by drug cartels? Please. Every level?

You believe this?
"Drug cartels operating at a ďstreet valueĒ of up to three trillion dollars per year, Afghanistan, Iraq, Kosovo/Albania, Colombia and Mexico, control every level of American government, not just state, local and, of course, Washington, but police agencies, the courts and have penetrated the legal profession, law schools, universities and all major financial institutions."

the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Dec 10, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
It's interesting to see how easy it is to fool some people, who want to be fooled.

"Welfare", primarily Food Stamps and Medicaid, account for about 5% of the Federal Budget and it's usually the FIRST thing some people talk about when cutting spending. Meanwhile Defense spending is 20% or 4X "welfare" but the same people usually want to increase that.
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