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apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 14, 2012 - 10:15am PT
"...the overwhelming majority of the posters seem intent on bashing the without regard to any principles of dialogue, much less good advocacy, I don't see the point."


Come on, John. This dynamic has been implicit to these threads from the start. The 'quality' (word used verrrrry loosely) of the dialogue varies only slightly over time, but more times than not is just bantering, nitpicking, gotchas, closed-minded ranting, interspersed with a few funny pictures or Locker's cameltoe. (Not that Locker has a cameltoe...you know what I mean.)

My observation of the tone of this thread (and the media & public) in the last coupla months has been that it became increasingly heated, each side sure that 'they got this'. Then came that cold slap of reality, and Republicans are once again in retreat, licking their wounds, angry as ever, scheming for another comeback, blaming the American public for abandoning morality in favor of their own selfish interests....

Yeah, that's surely a strategy for success.


Edit: 'I was on a radio talk show last night for a short time-"

Seriously? What channel? Is it archived somewhere?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 14, 2012 - 10:26am PT
no, it was a live program..you missed it..


But to think that somehow because the election is over so all in the past is done isnt thinking clearly. We have many stalemates ahead as well as a war. As much as the black market and smuggling supplies libya, so to do they supply Iran. Instead of negotiations being spearheaded there, washington now focuses on sex "scandals" ..?? Since when is having private emails conversations with a girlfriend been "scandalous". As for the "info" shared,, dont even tell me that congressmen dont tell their wives stuff- or that obama himself doesnt consult with his wife.
It would seem to me,, that four dead Americans would trump a sex scandal but the media seems bent on the opposite opinions. That disgusts me and many an good american. It would seem that Iran would be the worry of the congress, but since they already are pre planning budgets for an attack, perhaps its a non issue now? Things that make you go hmmmm..?



edit: but we do have Fienstien and others calling for subpoenas over someone having private email "sex". But the Benghazi attack?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 14, 2012 - 10:29am PT
"But to think that somehow because the election is over so all in the past is done isnt thinking clearly."

Who's suggesting such a thing besides yourself?

We're just happy that there's a chance we will be moving FORWARD, instead of reverting to the failed, backward policies of the GOP.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 14, 2012 - 10:36am PT
We are going forward in the deficit for sure- tripled the last four years and with the govt spending planned down the road will more than likely more than triple at the end of the next four years. Our banks wont be able to hold that situation. If we fail in our economy, we will fail on the paying off of the deficit, and if we fail there so do the countries we owe said deficits too. That is a scary and very viable scenario.

Living at the bottom of the economy of the country is a rare thing, but it also is a good indicator of any recoverys. We have foreclosures starting to surge, and un employment is on the rise. In short, the bottom is getting deeper...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 14, 2012 - 11:00am PT
In other words,, Libya is 10 times worse than it was under Kadufus. Yet the current admin said it was a GREAT thing in taking out kadufus - and that it would 'free libya' ... It HASNT done anything but make libya worse.

In all your hyperventilating hysteria you just don't get it, do you?

The "Arab Spring" wasn't a US foreign policy initiative gone bad - it was a US foreign policy response to events the people of North Africa and the Mideast initiated. It's another chapter in the long evolution of a post-colonial world. Get it? They are not us and Walmart and 7-11 aren't moving into Benghazi anytime soon.

Why? BECAUSE THEY JUST HAD A REVOLUTION AGAINST THEIR GOVERNMENT and won. A primary and unavoidable result of that is now the newly formed government doesn't have a military or national police presence so militias have taken over. Duh. And hey, don't like the resulting tribal, sectarian, and regional instability and internecine jousting? Bummer dude - but then you were the same guys screeching at the top of your lungs about Lockerbie and those damn Gaddafis forever.

And, as Maddow said, "Benghazi was an attack on us; not a scandal by us" (oh, and where was your ranting during Iran-Contragate?).

You have reduced yourself to such a simplistic black and white worldview as to be completely childish. And, hey, Iraq and Afghanistan have been a colossal f*#k-up of epic, monumental and historic proportions compared to Libya and was a genuinely treasonous conspiracy. Why aren't you folks on the right utterly enraged by those wars given they're still going on and Americans are still dying in them?

Get a f*#king grip dude, you're devolving into complete irrelevance.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 14, 2012 - 11:13am PT
Some of you often mention where my anger was when i wasnt even posting here on the internet. Afghanistan- Iraq-et all have indeed been cluster-f*cks which ive mentioned a hundred times or more minimum. Im not delusional as to the goings on in any way. But the ISSUE before us is Libya, Iran and the continuation of the middle east endeavors over oil. Afghanistan ,, if you havent heard will be "won" and troops out on a certain upcoming date. That is the issue before us as well. The ISSUES are the fact that the govt continues its behind the scenes manipulations getting us involved in Vietnam after Vietnam - and LIES to us about it. The ISSUE is that this administration has done as worse as the rest in this debacle. Then tries to attach to defense bills the NDAA 2013 which deals with the CITIZENRY, and not terrorism. As defined by "belligerents" in the language of the bill.



And this from DHS on their purchasing of millions of rounds of hollow point ammo. Now the article is somewhat worst case scenaro- however i also have to wonder why such departments would be stock piling ammo.

http://www.infowars.com/dhs-classifies-ammo-purchase-following-controversy/



No such things were ever done when i was in the civil defense. Outlets had their required amount and that was that.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 14, 2012 - 11:21am PT
Ron, you have been so rabidly fixated and perseverating about Libya in the last several weeks that it's impossible to see it as anything more than partisan political opportunism.

Of course Libya deserves investigation. But your reaction to it is waaaaaay out of proportion to its scale.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 14, 2012 - 11:31am PT
ok, lets discuss the NDAA 2013 bill then?



We have govt departments not even heard of before ordering millions of rounds of hollow point ammo, NOT target loads. We have a proposed law coming into effect SOON that says the govt can detain anyone they deem a "belligerent" (that being a KEY WORD), for an indefinite time- w/o ANY due process- that means so much as a phone call to the wife, and if and when your trial comes to be, it will be by a military tribunal.

Now ,, hearing those two things together what is one reminded of? Honestly i can not believe there isnt a thread dedicated to this issue. Its either you tow the party in charges line or else. Where is the first place they will begin to search for "belligerents" you ask? The INTERNET..If we dont see new laws on control by the govt of the internet this next four years,, ill buy you way lefters a beer each...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 14, 2012 - 11:34am PT
The issue is you don't get it, you don't see the bigger picture anywhere and especially in North Africa and the Mideast. Nothing has been 'won' anywhere and all we did was stir up hornets nests across the region and are now furiously juggling as a result. Afghanistan? The northern warlords are reorganizing and rearming in the wake of our retreat. Why? And what does that mean?

Let me tell you. The Taliban came to power due to the abuses of the Warlords, when we leave it will be like we were never even there except now the Chinese own the place and both wars have benefited Iran enormously. In simpler words - a complete waste of time and geopolitical strategy failure of grand proportions with rippling effects across the Mideast. We spent 4-6 trillion of your dollars and the primary winners are Iran and China - so much so that you can almost make the case W, Cheney and Rumsfeld were Iranian or Chinese agents.

And that outcome is the direct price of the neocons trying to do an end run around the central issue of Palestinian / Israeli peace by instead f*#king around with fantasy 'dominos' elsewhere in Mideast rather than confronting the problem head on.

Don't like what you see in North Africa and the Mideast? Don't like an emboldened Iran? Don't like NDAA 2013 bill? Bummer dude - they are all outfalls and a direct result of the neocon strategy once they took over the Whitehouse as the Bush administration. We'll be cleaning up their mess for decades to come both over there and here at home.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 14, 2012 - 11:40am PT
H,,,i agree with much of that-- havent you been listening? But Obama mimics them perfectly -THAT is the issue. He fed the Libya "revolt". Finances guns and equipment. Yes, just another in a long line of bungles of US putting our nose where it didnt belong. We are in another cold war essentially- thanks to much of this and its a DEM and REPUB thing.


edit: and regarding the NDAA, you know as well as i do that executive powers have been sought after for a lot longer then bush..;-)

But this latest is language i never thought i would see here in the USA. And i worked for the feds. This deals with you and i,, not terrorism..


You could be labeled a "belligerent" for the post you just put up against bush et all. They too are ex govt. I could be labeled a belligerent over the very mention of the NDAA so much. Sure that is a stretch,,NOW.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 14, 2012 - 11:48am PT
"He fed the Libya revolt" - that's right, because once these babies go off you are either involved or irrelevant and irrelevant is not something you want to be once your find yourself juggling furiously. There was zero option in our response. Zero. Again, it's not about Libya, or Syria, or Iran, it's about all of them together and Libya is just the ripples hitting the other side of the tub.

Messy, no doubt - welcome to the real world. We as Americans either stick our heads in the sands and are thereby blinded, or we start to get a grip on things and stay out in front of the sh#t storm the Bush administration has unleashed which is exactly what we are and should be doing. And we'll be playing this little nightmare out again and again as the ripples wash back and forth over the region for at least the next decade or two so hitch up your panties - we're in it for the long haul now.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 14, 2012 - 11:56am PT
Quite TRUE H.. Now of course their are players like N Korea and Pakistan whom will have their hand in the cookie jar. Frankly, in reality of the ME this is a jihad- which has been going on for how long? And now we set smack in the middle of it all. The policies were designed to aid the good when they fed the bad. Now we repeat it over and over- pretty much the definition of insanity.

Then throw in the critical condition of our economy into the above equation for a real hollywood disaster movie. For icing,, the NDAA 2013.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 14, 2012 - 11:59am PT
Note to apogee: Thus far this am up to the above post of mine, ive posted 11 times vs 15 times by others ive responded to.. If ANYTHING, the evidence shows im conservative of my replies.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
P.S. And it wasn't rocket science that 'democracy' in the Arab world might take on a religious tone we might not like, but that seems completely lost on the neocons who are still in disbelief the world isn't populated by middle-aged, protestant, dollar-driven white males. Have you ever perused this gem of a manifesto which launched the clusterf*#k?

http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

or this one:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

or:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/AttackIraq-Nov16,98.pdf
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
The policies were designed to aid the good when they fed the bad. Now we repeat it over and over- pretty much the definition of insanity.

We are NOT repeating it over and over in Libya, Syria, and most especially Iran. We are staying engage but cautious because at this point it's pretty damn hard to predict the future and there are no direct ways to intervene in what has been unleashed. Do you really think the events in Benghazi would have unfolded any differently under McCain? They wouldn't have - everything would be exactly as it today because - Obama or McCain - we are playing the hand dealt us by the Bush administration and the legacy of the neocon fantasy that all we needed to do was knock over one of those Mideast dominos and a whiteboy democracy would spread like wildfire.

The neocons were so utterly clueless it staggers the imagination and what's truly frightening is the remnants of their cadre were Romney's military and foreign policy advisers.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
I have seen two of those.


which brings up a good point.. Lets view this from being a citizen in an ME country, take yur pick.

Ok,, the USA govt agencies are stock piling hollow point ammo
as a law going into effect for them can make them disapear without a word and be put through a military tribunal,

While the same country professes to be the GLOBAL POWER..



Who does this remind YOU of?







edit: I have an Iranian friend who hopes the US invades. Ive told him i hope we dont. Even though they get murdered there for being "belligerents".. He compares the NDAA 2013 laws to where he lives now. He asked me " are you scared?" that struck me,, coming from him. But im not for invading. If they get their nukes built and then get a delivery system? That system should be taken out 100%. And IF we HAVE to, we do it in a way that assures success the QUICKEST. If a certain mtn range has the missles, level the whole range. Then be done with it. Other than that it isnt up to us. Iran has been clear to be a sworn enemy. No nukes is a must dontcha think?

and since when does a global power owe more than its worth?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 15, 2012 - 10:06am PT
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/foreign-policy/item/13651-obama-vs-the-brass-benghazi-cover-up-agenda-to-gut-military


Many Generals and and Admiral have been demoted and or removed in the LAST MONTH! ?? Excuses from sexual email innuendos to spending on trips have been used.. This is unprecedented - that so many TOP level military officials have been removed or demoted. In the light of upcoming wars, one can only be left to wonder why you would remove those with experience.

So we find ourselves more worried about e mails and their sexual content than four dead Brave Americans. We find the news media CENSORING any and all content that alludes to the real problems. Gag orders being issued like air these days as well. Meanwhile the "investigations" into benghazzi have been a loud joke.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 15, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
You're reading and quoting the John Birch Society and wonder why people think you're more than a tad hysterical and out of touch with reality?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 15, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
i have never read looked at or in any way quoted the john birch society.

And all the above is factual is it not?
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 15, 2012 - 05:08pm PT
The New American | Home
http://www.thenewamerican.com/
Magazine of the John Birch Society, providing in-depth reporting on U.S. and worldwide issues and events. Includes weekly features, back issue archive, and ...

Worth paying attention to your sources Ron. And if your google searches keep turning up hits like that on the top, you might want to question what your search terms are too.
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