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survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
So the Libya mess means that it's Obama's fault that Hamas hates Israel?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
But back to that average democrat.. Apogee is an example of a non thinking democrat. He posts my POST count as if to say im posting to much,, yet FAILED to realize that for every one of my posts, i must answer to five, six or seven replies. So the MATH escapes him - a basic ingredient for the count.. This is much like Libya, as the actual facts escape because of those not bringing a politician into good light. Praying for HOPE in the light of dismal fact..





Edt: Survival,, no i dont mean that. Not even close. They were quite separate mentions of things going on.. But LIBYA is all obamas ugly baby.. That will have to wait though, as pre planning in the budgets for an attack on Iran are coming up..2013 will see that war.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
Dismal facts, like 332 to 206.........
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
"...an example of a non thinking democrat."

Not true. I just try to engage thoughtfully with those who are capable of having thoughtful dialogue, and actually learn something.

Unfortunately, there isn't much opportunity to do that in these polititard threads, so most of the time it's just useless ranting bantering. It's entertaining for a while...then it gets boring.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
Not true. I just try to engage thoughtfully with those who are capable of having thoughtful dialogue, and actually learn something.

Unfortunately, there isn't much opportunity to do that in these polititard threads, so most of the time it's just useless ranting bantering. It's entertaining for a while...then it gets boring.

I think this is largely a wound we've inflicted on each other. Last week there was a thread that had one thoughtful post after another, until certain posters started lobbing insults, and the targets responded in kind. Eventually, an allegation of LEB participation vaporized it. Heaven forbid that we permit any LEB-like participation! Not only did the thread disappear from the board, every post did, too.

It isn't easy to ignore insults or opportunities for cheap shots, but we're unlikely to get a meaningful discussion unless we show some self-restraint.

I'm sorry I haven't been inclined to enter the fray much in the past few weeks, Ron. I feel like I've abandoned you in the midst of battle, but when the overwhelming majority of the posters seem intent on bashing the non-Democrats without regard to any principles of dialogue, much less good advocacy, I don't see the point.

John
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 14, 2012 - 01:10pm PT
JE,, Ive felt very much the same actually. I stopped posting in the other thread for exactly the reasons you describe. I knew very well why many have stopped posting as i get emails from those folks nearly every day- and they are of the same opinion as yourself, yet they also offer a thanks for keeping the ball rolling as it were lol!

No biggie here-- as it drives my post count up - which apparently is some sort of a "thing" .!?;-)


I was on a radio talk show last night for a short time- discussing the facts of how libya is being shuttled away from the front pages as far as the ATTACKS are concerned, yet is a MAJOR issue over people having internet sex- what ever that is.. They will extrapolate all manner of things in an effort to fog over the facts. And that is because we have screwed the proverbial pooch in Libya- stuck our dollars where they shouldnt have gone, gave weaponry to those that turned it against us (shocker)- and four dead brave Americans perished, while being viewed from above by many in the situation room..Perhaps they need to rename that room the " awww shyt room".. This is exactly why obama was vague from the git go-talking non-sense about a video. Sending in investigators 21 days after was putting a bandaid on a dry scab. Ive never heard of a more botched "investigation".
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 14, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
And this is the typical Repug:

TAMPA, Fla. (AP) When news vans camped outside her stately home, a Florida socialite tied to the Gen. David Petraeus sex scandal fell back on her informal credentials as a social ambassador for Tampa society and top military brass: She asked police for diplomatic protection.

In the phone call to authorities, Jill Kelley, a party hostess and unofficial social liaison for leaders of the U.S. military's Central Command in Tampa, cited her status as an honorary consul general while complaining about news vans that had descended on her two-story brick home overlooking Tampa Bay.

"You know, I don't know if by any chance, because I'm an honorary consul general, so I have inviolability, so they should not be able to cross my property. I don't know if you want to get diplomatic protection involved as well," she told the 911 dispatcher Monday.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 14, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
"...the overwhelming majority of the posters seem intent on bashing the without regard to any principles of dialogue, much less good advocacy, I don't see the point."


Come on, John. This dynamic has been implicit to these threads from the start. The 'quality' (word used verrrrry loosely) of the dialogue varies only slightly over time, but more times than not is just bantering, nitpicking, gotchas, closed-minded ranting, interspersed with a few funny pictures or Locker's cameltoe. (Not that Locker has a cameltoe...you know what I mean.)

My observation of the tone of this thread (and the media & public) in the last coupla months has been that it became increasingly heated, each side sure that 'they got this'. Then came that cold slap of reality, and Republicans are once again in retreat, licking their wounds, angry as ever, scheming for another comeback, blaming the American public for abandoning morality in favor of their own selfish interests....

Yeah, that's surely a strategy for success.


Edit: 'I was on a radio talk show last night for a short time-"

Seriously? What channel? Is it archived somewhere?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 14, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
no, it was a live program..you missed it..


But to think that somehow because the election is over so all in the past is done isnt thinking clearly. We have many stalemates ahead as well as a war. As much as the black market and smuggling supplies libya, so to do they supply Iran. Instead of negotiations being spearheaded there, washington now focuses on sex "scandals" ..?? Since when is having private emails conversations with a girlfriend been "scandalous". As for the "info" shared,, dont even tell me that congressmen dont tell their wives stuff- or that obama himself doesnt consult with his wife.
It would seem to me,, that four dead Americans would trump a sex scandal but the media seems bent on the opposite opinions. That disgusts me and many an good american. It would seem that Iran would be the worry of the congress, but since they already are pre planning budgets for an attack, perhaps its a non issue now? Things that make you go hmmmm..?



edit: but we do have Fienstien and others calling for subpoenas over someone having private email "sex". But the Benghazi attack?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 14, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
"But to think that somehow because the election is over so all in the past is done isnt thinking clearly."

Who's suggesting such a thing besides yourself?

We're just happy that there's a chance we will be moving FORWARD, instead of reverting to the failed, backward policies of the GOP.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 14, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
We are going forward in the deficit for sure- tripled the last four years and with the govt spending planned down the road will more than likely more than triple at the end of the next four years. Our banks wont be able to hold that situation. If we fail in our economy, we will fail on the paying off of the deficit, and if we fail there so do the countries we owe said deficits too. That is a scary and very viable scenario.

Living at the bottom of the economy of the country is a rare thing, but it also is a good indicator of any recoverys. We have foreclosures starting to surge, and un employment is on the rise. In short, the bottom is getting deeper...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 14, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
In other words,, Libya is 10 times worse than it was under Kadufus. Yet the current admin said it was a GREAT thing in taking out kadufus - and that it would 'free libya' ... It HASNT done anything but make libya worse.

In all your hyperventilating hysteria you just don't get it, do you?

The "Arab Spring" wasn't a US foreign policy initiative gone bad - it was a US foreign policy response to events the people of North Africa and the Mideast initiated. It's another chapter in the long evolution of a post-colonial world. Get it? They are not us and Walmart and 7-11 aren't moving into Benghazi anytime soon.

Why? BECAUSE THEY JUST HAD A REVOLUTION AGAINST THEIR GOVERNMENT and won. A primary and unavoidable result of that is now the newly formed government doesn't have a military or national police presence so militias have taken over. Duh. And hey, don't like the resulting tribal, sectarian, and regional instability and internecine jousting? Bummer dude - but then you were the same guys screeching at the top of your lungs about Lockerbie and those damn Gaddafis forever.

And, as Maddow said, "Benghazi was an attack on us; not a scandal by us" (oh, and where was your ranting during Iran-Contragate?).

You have reduced yourself to such a simplistic black and white worldview as to be completely childish. And, hey, Iraq and Afghanistan have been a colossal f*#k-up of epic, monumental and historic proportions compared to Libya and was a genuinely treasonous conspiracy. Why aren't you folks on the right utterly enraged by those wars given they're still going on and Americans are still dying in them?

Get a f*#king grip dude, you're devolving into complete irrelevance.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 14, 2012 - 02:13pm PT
Some of you often mention where my anger was when i wasnt even posting here on the internet. Afghanistan- Iraq-et all have indeed been cluster-f*cks which ive mentioned a hundred times or more minimum. Im not delusional as to the goings on in any way. But the ISSUE before us is Libya, Iran and the continuation of the middle east endeavors over oil. Afghanistan ,, if you havent heard will be "won" and troops out on a certain upcoming date. That is the issue before us as well. The ISSUES are the fact that the govt continues its behind the scenes manipulations getting us involved in Vietnam after Vietnam - and LIES to us about it. The ISSUE is that this administration has done as worse as the rest in this debacle. Then tries to attach to defense bills the NDAA 2013 which deals with the CITIZENRY, and not terrorism. As defined by "belligerents" in the language of the bill.



And this from DHS on their purchasing of millions of rounds of hollow point ammo. Now the article is somewhat worst case scenaro- however i also have to wonder why such departments would be stock piling ammo.

http://www.infowars.com/dhs-classifies-ammo-purchase-following-controversy/



No such things were ever done when i was in the civil defense. Outlets had their required amount and that was that.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 14, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
Ron, you have been so rabidly fixated and perseverating about Libya in the last several weeks that it's impossible to see it as anything more than partisan political opportunism.

Of course Libya deserves investigation. But your reaction to it is waaaaaay out of proportion to its scale.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 14, 2012 - 02:31pm PT
ok, lets discuss the NDAA 2013 bill then?



We have govt departments not even heard of before ordering millions of rounds of hollow point ammo, NOT target loads. We have a proposed law coming into effect SOON that says the govt can detain anyone they deem a "belligerent" (that being a KEY WORD), for an indefinite time- w/o ANY due process- that means so much as a phone call to the wife, and if and when your trial comes to be, it will be by a military tribunal.

Now ,, hearing those two things together what is one reminded of? Honestly i can not believe there isnt a thread dedicated to this issue. Its either you tow the party in charges line or else. Where is the first place they will begin to search for "belligerents" you ask? The INTERNET..If we dont see new laws on control by the govt of the internet this next four years,, ill buy you way lefters a beer each...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 14, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
The issue is you don't get it, you don't see the bigger picture anywhere and especially in North Africa and the Mideast. Nothing has been 'won' anywhere and all we did was stir up hornets nests across the region and are now furiously juggling as a result. Afghanistan? The northern warlords are reorganizing and rearming in the wake of our retreat. Why? And what does that mean?

Let me tell you. The Taliban came to power due to the abuses of the Warlords, when we leave it will be like we were never even there except now the Chinese own the place and both wars have benefited Iran enormously. In simpler words - a complete waste of time and geopolitical strategy failure of grand proportions with rippling effects across the Mideast. We spent 4-6 trillion of your dollars and the primary winners are Iran and China - so much so that you can almost make the case W, Cheney and Rumsfeld were Iranian or Chinese agents.

And that outcome is the direct price of the neocons trying to do an end run around the central issue of Palestinian / Israeli peace by instead f*#king around with fantasy 'dominos' elsewhere in Mideast rather than confronting the problem head on.

Don't like what you see in North Africa and the Mideast? Don't like an emboldened Iran? Don't like NDAA 2013 bill? Bummer dude - they are all outfalls and a direct result of the neocon strategy once they took over the Whitehouse as the Bush administration. We'll be cleaning up their mess for decades to come both over there and here at home.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 14, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
H,,,i agree with much of that-- havent you been listening? But Obama mimics them perfectly -THAT is the issue. He fed the Libya "revolt". Finances guns and equipment. Yes, just another in a long line of bungles of US putting our nose where it didnt belong. We are in another cold war essentially- thanks to much of this and its a DEM and REPUB thing.


edit: and regarding the NDAA, you know as well as i do that executive powers have been sought after for a lot longer then bush..;-)

But this latest is language i never thought i would see here in the USA. And i worked for the feds. This deals with you and i,, not terrorism..


You could be labeled a "belligerent" for the post you just put up against bush et all. They too are ex govt. I could be labeled a belligerent over the very mention of the NDAA so much. Sure that is a stretch,,NOW.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 14, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
"He fed the Libya revolt" - that's right, because once these babies go off you are either involved or irrelevant and irrelevant is not something you want to be once your find yourself juggling furiously. There was zero option in our response. Zero. Again, it's not about Libya, or Syria, or Iran, it's about all of them together and Libya is just the ripples hitting the other side of the tub.

Messy, no doubt - welcome to the real world. We as Americans either stick our heads in the sands and are thereby blinded, or we start to get a grip on things and stay out in front of the sh#t storm the Bush administration has unleashed which is exactly what we are and should be doing. And we'll be playing this little nightmare out again and again as the ripples wash back and forth over the region for at least the next decade or two so hitch up your panties - we're in it for the long haul now.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 14, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
Quite TRUE H.. Now of course their are players like N Korea and Pakistan whom will have their hand in the cookie jar. Frankly, in reality of the ME this is a jihad- which has been going on for how long? And now we set smack in the middle of it all. The policies were designed to aid the good when they fed the bad. Now we repeat it over and over- pretty much the definition of insanity.

Then throw in the critical condition of our economy into the above equation for a real hollywood disaster movie. For icing,, the NDAA 2013.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 14, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
Note to apogee: Thus far this am up to the above post of mine, ive posted 11 times vs 15 times by others ive responded to.. If ANYTHING, the evidence shows im conservative of my replies.
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