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healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 1, 2012 - 06:27pm PT
Ron: Like i said,, i do agree on the ill dealings of the past in regards to the ME, but NOTHING will change that now..

When it comes to the muslim brotherhood- obviously a radical islamist faction, should any sensible person be for the spread of that at THIS point?

The brotherhood was an entirely predictable response in a post-colonial Mideast dominated by dictators propped up by the West.

Ron: Personally I wanted a hands off approach to them all

Too late - the neocons already screwed that pooch.

Ron: Obama has even pre-budgeted for attacking Iran.

No, he hasn't. The military costs of the consequences of an Israeli strike on Iran will be put entirely on the national credit card just like the past three wars have been.

Ron: We've seen the results of diplomacy in dealing with the brotherhood quite clearly now.

No, we're only just now starting to do any diplomacy with the brotherhood proper since Morsi assumed the presidency. The brotherhood could do anything it wanted prior to that, but now it is heavily constrained simply by the act of stepping onto the world stage. Now they have to do more than run community centers, foster unrest, and spout rhetoric - now they have to deliver in the light of day and that's a much harder proposition. We'll see how it all pans out, but we're just now getting our first glimpses of what diplomacy with the brotherhood will be like.

Ron: My friend in Iran says the only hope they have is that the USA kills their regime. But he isnt holding his breath because he knows about the monies flowing between us and them.

There are no significant "monies [of any kind] flowing between us and them."

Ron: Arming anyone any futher over in the ME is folly at this point. We saw how this comes around to bite you in the arse with fast and furious. Why engage that on a GRAND scale is beyond me.

F&F was a Bush project and has little relationship to what's going on over in the Mideast at the moment. Once again, arms are going to flow to conflict zones and we are either engaged or irrelevant.

Ron: So you can THINK that Palestine trying to reclaim lands is a good idea, but you back those who seek to do you harm as well. And the UN has ALWAYS been more harm to us than good. All we do is give them muscle when it benefits the brotherhood. That ISNT helping.

Ron, Ron, Ron, man...you really need to ditch all the Birch bullshit and wake the f*#k up dude. The UN / male essense paranoia is absolutely cartoonish. And you seem utterly obsessed and captivated by one boogiemen after another to the point it's like waving a feathered catnip ball on a string in front of a cat. Cartels, Brotherhoods, and TERRORIST STATES - oh my!!! Unfortunately, the world just isn't as simple as that - wish it were - but it ain't. Everything is action and reaction and some of those actions happened years, decades or even centuries ago; we still have to deal with it and our actions always take place against a moving backdrop. We don't own the pace or tempo of the events and our attempts to interjection and control events almost always backfire.

Maybe consider easing up on the simplicity and take a more nuanced approach to all these evil entities. While the "axis of evil" was brilliant political theatre in pandering to an uneducated audience, it did nothing to help anyone understand very real events on the ground. Anytime the politically-inclined attempt to pin the 'evil' tag on someone you should be highly suspicious of their motivations and spend a bit of time trying to actually understand a little of the actual events and history of those peoples.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 1, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
Healy, how is picking a fight with a vastly superior enemy and
thereby getting mostly civilians killed doing any good?

It's actually a very effective strategy, particularly given they didn't pick the turf and have no other options. It keeps world attention on the conflict, makes Israel look like the abused child grown up to be an abuser itself, forces Gulf states to action, and generates global sympathies for the votes in the general assembly like we just witnessed.

How is continuing to call for the destruction of Israel at all constructive?

They're not going to give that up until Israel permanently halts settlements and exhibits a willingness to negotiate a two-state solution in earnest. Hamas is the bad cop to Fatah's good cop - and it's effective.

How is the continuance of this nihilistic approach going to get the
Palestinians out of the hell hole lives they lead?

It's not the Hamas or Fatah who have been fostering the continuance of a nihilistic approach; that would be Israel who in fact does not want peace or a Palestinian state. The past three decades of the "peace process" have been a sham from the Israeli side and just a way to buy time while fragmenting the West Bank with settlements.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 1, 2012 - 07:26pm PT

Federal government does that sort of thing all the time to make states comply with regulations. Remember the National Minimum Drinking Act of 1984, which tied federal hwy funding to compliance? This "tax" effects 17 states, so people in those states need to take it up with their governor or pay a premium. From my end, it looks like the grandstanding leadership of those states are the ones making people pay more in healtcare. Or, more accurately, the insurance companies who will be passing the cost on as they are so apt to do.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 07:39pm PT
Gee, Healy, I guess then that the Israeli-Palestinian problem is the first
in the history of the world to be completely caused and resolveable only
by one side? AMAZING!
dirtbag

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#270701
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
Is she your average Democrat?
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
China has launched its new line of aircraft carriers.

N Korea threatens to test fire long range missiles for icbms.

Iran threatens to get nuclear weapon capabilities

Iran also supplies Gaza with weaponry


Our #1 enemy was being hidden by Pakistan and they arrested the source of the info to find him- and now rots in a pakistani jail somewhere.

Israel continues to battle hamas who continues to battle Israel. Hamas right now is encouraging its followers to launch missiles.

Our Ambassador and three other Brave Americans were murdered in Behgnazi

Libya, Egypt , Yemen, Syria, Burma are all under violent actions now.

all FACTS no???



see ANY common denominators in all of that?


I will take a stab..

A pony would make them all a little bit happier?


Gee Ron.. you sound like you are trying to blame all of that on Obama. Are you?
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
Okay.. well.. what is?
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 08:10pm PT
The muslim brotherhood built an aircraft carrier in China?

And they helped North Korea develop ICBMs?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 08:13pm PT
John M, haven't you ever heard why camels are called the ships of the desert?
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 08:21pm PT
The pic of Jessica Alba? She is part of the Muslim Brotherhood?


Just messing with you Ron. I still don't know which post you are talking about, but it doesn't matter that much to me.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
SLO, Ca
Dec 1, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
She looks great to me. Just because she does a sit-up now and then doesn't mean she's anorexic.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 1, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
Well Karl do you support HAMAS or Israel? I havent heard of Israelis flying planes into buildings,, or wearing explosive undies, shoes or the like.

I support both in hoping they find peace and security and I support neither to the extent they use violence. My views and that of HealyJ are aligned. You should listen to him, he knows what he's talking about

And make no mistake, if it weren't for our support for Israel, 9-11 is unlikely to have happened. To book Israel has sent spies to the US (some in Jail now) and DID attack the US LIberty with plans, killing Americans in 1967. Google it.

And you know which country in the world would be most likely to assassinate a US president? I wouldn't be surprised at all if a US president took a sharply "we aren't going to give Israel Foreign aid anymore and stand up for the in the US, they'd be the ones to kill the president"

You're totally wrong equating the PLO and Hamas. Quite spewing about what you know nothing about, and also Hamas has NOTHING to do with Worldwide terrorism. They are locked in in their regional conflict...period.

It's very basic dude. There were about 14,000 Jews in the land of Israel just after the turn of the century (1900) now they have everything. How do you think they got it? If you were one of the dude that got squeezed off your land and your family killed, you'd be the most fearsome terrorist on the planet. I know you. Don't even deny it.

You complain about IEDs and such but it's really just about what they have to fight with. Israel has tanks and F16s. Take all that away and they'd be terrorist too, just like they actually were when they fought the British and were blowing up hotels and stuff



always step into the other guys shoes and ask "What would I do?"

Peace

Karl
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 11:48pm PT
Iran already attacked us.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/51400

We just ignore it.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 2, 2012 - 02:27am PT
Iran already attacked us.

Boo!!

You know Bluering, I though you were saying Al Queda was behind Beghazi and Iran is not an Al Queda place. Not Wahabbi there.

Plus, you know we're attacking them already right? Flying drones over their land, messing with their internet, and somebody is assassinating their scientists.

Not to mention we forced sanctions on them

And let's not forget it was only 1954 when our CIA helped overthrow their democratically elected president and put in a ruthless dictator, all because they wanted to control their own oil

Remember what Jesus said, Get the log out of your own eye before you complain about the twig in somebody else's. We're bringing this sh#t down on ourselves by being in everyone elses sh#t at huge expense to our both in money and consequences.

If other countries did 1/10th the things we routinely do to other countries, you'd be called to nuke them

And don't you think falsely invading one country, killing 100's of thousands and making Millions of refugees should disqualify us from doing that again? Sorta like why Germany abstained from recognizing Palestine even though they wanted to.

Peace

Karl
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 2, 2012 - 04:01am PT
PLO, aka Hamas

Ron, Hamas has never been a part of the PLO and its history includes longstanding conflict with Fatah (the largest and most influential group in the PLO.) This is hardly surprising as since the beginning, Hamas has been encouraged (and even funded in the early days) by Israel as a foil to the secular Fatah. Here's a pretty good rundown from the commies at the WSJ:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html

Late last year there was talk of Hamas joining the PLO. This made the Likudniks in Israel blow a gasket:

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=250605

If this happened they could no longer play the groups off against each other.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 2, 2012 - 05:29am PT
Gee, Healy, I guess then that the Israeli-Palestinian problem is the first in the history of the world to be completely caused and resolveable only by one side? AMAZING!

Do you see two sides when you look at that map? the Israeli right does not, and never has, intended to settle and the Hamas developed specifically in response to that reality. Had the Israelis had any remote interest in settling they could have entirely headed off Hamas' very existence decades ago. Hamas only exits as a due to Israeli intransigence.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 2, 2012 - 05:38am PT
Iran already attacked us.

Iran had no involvement in the attack - the attack was committed by Salafis which is a fundamentalist Sunni sect, not a Shiite one. In fact, the Salafi are actively countering Iranian-backed Shiite influence in North Africa.

Attacking Iran would be an ideological victory for hard-line Salafists / Wahhabis, tipping the regional balance-of-power in favor of the ultra-orthodox. This is not a minor consequence. Like it or not, Iranís Twelver Shiite national ideology is somewhat of a counterbalance to the ultra-orthodox Salafists in the region.

And that's the whole problem with all the whole global 'Caliphate' / 'culture' hysteria - before either the shiites or sunnis posed a strategic threat in the region they'd have to survive a bitter and protracted regional sectarian war from which no one will emerge as the 'last man standing'. The entire concept is bankrupt nonsense, mostly pushed by one academic 'culture' warrior.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 2, 2012 - 06:22am PT
Ron: China has launched its new line of aircraft carriers.

Inconsequential as already explained - everyone wants toys they don't have, even if they don't know how to use them.

Ron: N Korea threatens to test fire long range missiles for icbms.

Pay closer attention. N Korea does things like this and restarting reactors whenever they're feeling neglected and been off the front page for too long due to other, more pressing, world events. They are more concerned with being forgotten than in becoming a threat. Also, it's more for China's benefit than ours, and besides, the Japanese run a couple of AEGIS boats and have it all covered with a couple of ours thrown in as backups. So my advice? Don't sweat the small stuff.

Ron: Iran threatens to get nuclear weapon capabilities

Gee, I dunno, the fact the Persians are a unique culture unto themselves in a region of cultures hostile to theirs couldn't possibly be driving any of their thinking...

Hey Arman, have you noticed how our neighborhood has been feeling more...
Hey Arman, have you noticed how our neighborhood has been feeling more and more uncomfortable of late...?
Credit: healyje

Ron: Iran also supplies Gaza with weaponry

They supply weapons to anyone with cash - just like us, the russians, and the chinese though they are probably inclined to throw Hamas the occasional freebee just to be annoying (and to stay relevant).

Ron: Our #1 enemy was being hidden by Pakistan and they arrested the source of the info to find him - and now rots in a pakistani jail somewhere.

Yeah, well, pissing in the other guy's sandbox, even if only to drown a scorpion, never plays well with the locals. Sort of like when cartels piss in your sandbox.

Ron: Israel continues to battle hamas who continues to battle Israel. Hamas right now is encouraging its followers to launch missiles.

Can't blame'em - are you just not seeing the map we keep posting? Being Irish and all I'd probably be the guy lighting the fuses if it were happening to me and mine. How about you?

Ron: Our Ambassador and three other Brave Americans were murdered in Behgnazi

Yep, a CIA intel post got caught with their pants down which is doubly embarrassing because what happened to them is exactly what they were there to monitor for. Running intel ops in conflict zones is never without obvious risks - sh#t happens, a real bummer in this case as Stevens was about the best friend the Libyans had (not that you or any of the right really care about Stevens [a liberal] or the other guys - you've all made it abundantly and callously clear they're just election fodder an nothing more).

Ron: Libya, Egypt , Yemen, Syria, Burma are all under violent actions now.

Burma's unrelated, but which part of the forty times we've explained that this is W and the neocon's 'dominoes' legacy do you just not get? I mean, c'mon - really?



Ron: all FACTS no???

Dude, you desperately need to ease up on the chicken-little, boogeymen-and-the-UN-mating-under-my-bed thing. Hey, we f*#ked up as a nation under the neocons and now we have to buck up, suck it in, and deal - preferably without all the hand-wringing, violent shaking, gnashing of teeth, hysteria, and inconsolable wailing.

Yer....gonna die, die, die!!!
Yer....gonna die, die, die!!!
Credit: healyje

Man, I mean, just how do you manage to climb and lead with attitudes and outlooks like these?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 2, 2012 - 07:04am PT
Thanks for the Factual smack-down Joe.

Things change when you know what you're talking about Blue. There's all these right wing talk show hosts who don't really know squat out there talking smack but it's just smack

like the people who have read a book on climbing and look up at El Cap and say stupid things

Peace

Karl
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