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Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
Sadly there have been a few folks on death row that after years of waiting to die, were later proven to be innocent. Our system is set up to prevent innocent men from dying and in theory would rather let a criminal be free. We want those folks wrongly jailed to have every chance to prove that. Yes, it does cost us way too much but imagine if you were that person, the one that actually was put away wrongly... This is the moral dilemma we try to rectify by allowing appeals. Goes by the motto, "innocent until proven guilty without doubt."

Good or bad, it's part of who we are.

AFS
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
Yes,, but then there are those like the theater shooter.. A simple walk out back and a firing squad is fitting.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
The people claiming to be democrats on that other thread give democrats a bad name.

Hey dumbasses. Did you look at the US debt when Obama took office? under 10 trillion. It's over 16 trillion currently and on a trajectory that withstands understanding by any rational soul. Watch it for 20 seconds or so to see yer guy at work and understand that you are dooming the country's future.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Yeah, I know your response: "IT'S BUSHES FAULT"....it would be funny if it wasn't so painful.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:48pm PT
I know Couch.. I wasnt against obama when he first popped on the scene- seemed fresh,, for a few minutes...

But after four years, and plans of govt spending they are afraid to even attempt to accurately cost, Its time for him to go. Not to memntion the ineptitude hes shown in dealing with circumstances that require immediate action. Too much politician to be commander.
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
Personally, I would not mind that. But alas... I respect the law above most things... I say most things because if I catch anyone hurting my son, abusing him in any way... I will not be sane. Nope... These are some powerful instincts.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
You're right, Anastasia. It's a part of who we are.

There was a time when every felony was punishable (and punished) by hanging. I thank God that is no longer true, because my date with the gallows would have taken place several years ago.

Now, in contrast, we have such a revulsion against intentional killing that we bend over backwards to make sure that we, as a society, don't do it to our prisoners. Even then, we still can get it wrong.

I sometimes wonder which is the greater number: those wrongly on death row, or those killed because a prisoner who, in earlier years, would have been executed was released. It could well be the latter, but I think that most members of society are more appalled at the prospect of the former.

John
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
Re the debt increase, here's some commentary from Politicfact.org. In short, over 50% of the debt increase is the result of Bush era tax cuts, the same policy that Romney will continue:
First, the bottom-line number on the debt: Yes, it has grown by $5 trillion during Obama’s tenure. Total debt has increased by $5.5 trillion since January 20, 2009, while the share of that debt held by the public has increased by $5 trillion.

But it’s not entirely correct to hang that increase on "Obama’s spending" alone.

In our previous item, we looked at calculations by the Treasury Department based on data from the Congressional Budget Office, the independent number-crunching arm of Congress.

To figure out what caused the accumulation of deficits over the past decade, CBO tracked the surplus it had projected back in 2001 and compared it with the actual cumulative deficits that resulted instead. CBO specifically broke out how much several laws contributed to the deficit, some of which started under Bush and some under Obama.

Because American Crossroads was only referring to the debt added during Obama’s tenure, we only looked at fiscal years 2009, 2010 and 2011. And because the American Crossroads ad does not reference how much the deficits fell below the surpluses that had been forecast by CBO, we’re going to exclude from our calculations a category CBO called its own "failures to predict economic conditions accurately."

We added up the lost revenue and additional spending each year and then calculated their percentage of the deficits over those three years.

Spending

Spending initiated by Bush policies: 4 percent of total deficits in 2009, 2010 and 2011
Spending initiated by Obama policies: 11 percent
Other increases in discretionary spending: 32 percent
Other increases in mandatory spending: 6 percent

Revenue reductions

Revenue reductions initiated by Bush policies: 11 percent
Revenue reductions initiated by Obama policies: 13 percent
Other unclassified revenue reductions: 5 percent

Interest

Net interest: 19 percent

The spending increases traceable to programs clearly attributable to Obama, combined with the increase in discretionary spending on his watch, account for about 43 percent of the three years worth of deficits.

So if you’re talking about what "drove us $5 trillion deeper in debt," then a clear majority stemmed from sources other than "Obama’s spending."

If you expand the definition from "Obama’s spending" to "Obama’s spending and tax cuts," you get to a total of 56 percent. Throw in 13 percentage points for the added interest costs of Obama’s policies and you’re at 69 percent.

Our ruling

The American Crossroads ad claims that "Obama’s spending drove us $5 trillion deeper in debt."

But not all of the $5 trillion can be attributed to Obama's spending. Much of it can be attributed to his tax cuts and the policies of President Bush. On balance, we rate the claim Half True.
Be careful what you wish for.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
Credit: Hawkeye

Credit: Hawkeye

Credit: Hawkeye

Credit: Hawkeye

Credit: Hawkeye

Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:09pm PT
Personally, I think anyone wanting this mess of being President is either a egomaniac or an idealist. There is no sane, rational person who would desire this kind of "no way to win," situation.

Yes, I dislike both candidates for very different and solid reasons. Neither of them impress me. Plus... No matter what, there is no quick fix. One, it's a BIG mess. Two, we are too engorged with a very slow moving government, We have too much bureaucratic red tape to get anything done. We are screwed so... My attitude is since I am screwed, I might as well enjoy the show.

Carry on folks. All the mud slinging is at least pointlessly entertaining.

AFS
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:13pm PT
lesser of evils, really.. Im not excited at the prospects. But i know the last four years hasnt done it and obamacare is a disaster in the waiting. I WISH it would have proven viable,, but it doesnt seem to be the case. Timing or techniques.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
Storm Warning!!

Everyone in the path of Hurricane Sandy should head immediately for the shelter of their third or fourth home.--I'm just plain old Mitt Romney, just an above-average political hack, and I approve this disguised campaign message

Warren Harding used every photo opp that came his way.

He was just your average Valley climber.

He never felt the need to tell vast lies like our recent Republican prexy.

Or drive anything better than a Corvette.

There are no average anythings, Couch Patty.

"Recrimination is painless" on the internet. I love it like I loved M*A*S*H.

"The Major happens to be the Korean distributor for crapola."--Hawkeye
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
And the New Democratic Party is not much like the Old Democratic Party. The old party was at least a party of unions -- practical-minded people. Obama has reshaped the Democratic Party into his own image -- an antiwar intellectual semi-professor. The New Democratic Party is the Nation magazine with candidates.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
the facts are illuminating.





Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
Interesting conversing here in the politard threads...I never really know who is at the other end -or seldom anyhow.. I once asked another member if apogee was a chick. True story. And i thought for sure jghedge was about 19 at most. So its always a fun surprise to get a glimpse of whos who..
And ive also accused DoF of acting like a previous girlfriend in that he would tell me he wont read any more of my posts then asks more questions..

Heres how one of those talks would go,, Her SHUT UP im not listening to you anymore, then she would ask me a question that i would answer and she would retort,, I dont wanna hear it. I caught on to that fairly quickly !;-)
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
Re the debt increase, here's some commentary from Politicfact.org. In short, over 50% of the debt increase is the result of Bush era tax cuts, the same policy that Romney will continue:

Lets just start calling them the Obama tax cuts for the rich since Obama and the democrats in the house and senate decided to extend them and not let them expire had they done nothing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_tax_cuts. Regardless, I suspect we are not in disagreement on that.

Coming up, "Taxmageddon":
"In February 2012, the term "Taxmageddon" was coined by Congressional aides to refer to December 31, 2012, the date of the expected implementation of government spending reductions and expiration of a large number of tax cuts, many of which are the tax cuts enacted under George W. Bush and extended by President Obama.[52][53] "

And the Bush blame game continues. (I give Bush some of this blame too) At least you'll have a new disaster to blame on Bush......We need to cut government spending: specifically reducing our military footprint.


SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Oct 29, 2012 - 06:12pm PT

The original Republican salute!!!!

wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny,sawdust does not work like chalk
Oct 29, 2012 - 07:49pm PT
we the people,..........americans turning their backs on other americans,.....sustainable.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
I don't think President Obama is responsible for the deaths and disaster of the attack of our embassy in Libya. He shouldn't even have been near to the decision making process on that kind of thing. In fact, if you put it in perspective, they are still trying to see and say what caused the Indian/Chinese conflict 50 years later:

http://claudearpi.blogspot.com/2012/04/why-henderson-brooks-report-has-never.html

Good read.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
he claimed LOUDLY he would cut them in HALF in his first term..
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
Yeah, I know your response: "IT'S BUSHES FAULT"....it would be funny if it wasn't so painful.

It would be funny if it weren't so true. And you think McCain would have done anything different? Not. Those cards were already long dealt by the time the president took office - any president.

Credit: healyje

You can't put three trillion dollars worth of Neocon pre-emptive wars on the national credit card and expect it to take less than a decade to climb out of the shitter. Anyone thinking this is Obama's fault because he couldn't turn W's trajectory around in one term is utterly delusional. Attempting to have done so would have instantly put us into a deep depression.

In reality our debt situation is courtesy of Reagan/Bush Sr/W militarism.
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