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couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2012 - 07:36am PT
Speaking of amendments, according to this journalist, looks like the unwarranted infinite detention (ie, lock you up with no trial) may be next before they work on screwing up the 2nd (gun ownership).

"What everyone must understand is that American politics doesn't work the way you'd think it would. Most people presume that government officials would never willfully withhold penicillin from men with syphilis just to see what would happen if the disease went untreated. It seems unlikely that officers would coerce enlisted men into exposing themselves to debilitating nerve gas. Few expected that President Obama would preside over the persecution of an NSA whistle-blower, or presume the guilt of all military-aged males killed by U.S. drone strikes. But it all happened.

Really thinking about all that may make it easier to believe what I'm about to tell you.

It may seem like imprisoning an American citizen without charges or trial transgresses against the United States Constitution and basic norms of Western justice dating back to the Magna Carta.

It may seem like reiterating the right to due process contained in the 5th Amendment would be uncontroversial.

It may seem like a United States senator would be widely ridiculed for suggesting that American citizens can be imprisoned indefinitely without chargers or trial, and that if numerous U.S. senators took that position, the press would treat the issue with at least as much urgency as "the fiscal cliff" or the possibility of a new assault weapons bill or likely nominees for Cabinet posts.

It may seem like the American citizens who vocally fret about the importance of adhering to the text of the Constitution would object as loudly as anyone to the prospect of indefinite detention.

But it isn't so.

The casual news consumer cannot rely on those seemingly reasonable heuristics to signal that very old norms are giving way, that important protections are being undermined, perhaps decisively.

We've lost the courage of our convictions -- we're that scared of terrorism (or of seeming soft on it).

News junkies likely know that I'm alluding to a specific law that has passed both the Senate and the House, and is presently in a conference committee, where lawmakers reconcile the two versions. Observers once worried that the law would permit the indefinite detention of American citizens, or at least force them to rely on uncertain court challenges if unjustly imprisoned. In response, Senator Dianne Feinstein tried to allay these concerns with an amendment:

An authorization to use military force, a declaration of war, or any similar authority shall not authorize the detention without charge or trial of a citizen or lawful permanent resident of the United States apprehended in the United States, unless an Act of Congress expressly authorizes such detention.

You'd think the part about American citizens being protected from indefinite detention would be uncontroversial. It wasn't. But the amendment did manage to pass in the United States Senate.

Afterward everyone forgot about it pretty quickly. But not Charlie Savage. He's a journalist at The New York Times. If every journalist were more like him the United States government would be far less able to radically expand the president's unchecked authority without many people noticing.

Here is his scoop:

Lawmakers charged with merging the House and Senate versions of the National Defense Authorization Act decided on Tuesday to drop a provision that would have explicitly barred the military from holding American citizens and permanent residents in indefinite detention without trial as terrorism suspects, according to Congressional staff members familiar with the negotiations.

Says Adam Serwer, another journalist who treats these issues with the urgency that they deserve:

Of the four main negotiators on the defense bill, only one of the Democrats, Rep. Adam Smith (D-Wash.), opposes domestic indefinite detention of Americans. The Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Senator Carl Levin (D-Mich.), believes detaining Americans without charge or trial is constitutional, and only voted for the Feinstein amendment because he and some of his Republican colleagues in the Senate convinced themselves through a convoluted legal rationale that Feinstein's proposal didn't actually ban the practice. Both of the main Republican negotiators, House Armed Services Committee Chairman Howard "Buck" McKeon (R-Calif) and Senator John McCain (R-Ariz) believe it's constitutional to lock up American citizens suspected of terrorism without ever proving they're guilty.

There is a complication, as he notes: Civil liberties groups "aren't shedding any tears over the demise of the Feinstein-Lee amendment," because they objected to the fact that it protected only U.S. citizens and permanent residents, rather than all persons present in the United States. While I respect that principled stand, the more important thing is that this outcome puts us all at greater risk of having a core liberty violated, and that Senators McCain, Levin, and many other legislators suffer no consequences for failing to protect and defend the United States Constitution.

As Serwer puts it, "The demise of the Feinstein-Lee proposal doesn't necessarily mean that Americans suspected of terrorism in the US can be locked up forever without a trial. But it ensures that the next time a president tries to lock up an American citizen without trial -- as President George W. Bush previously tried -- it will be left up to the courts to decide whether or not it's legal."

Don't let the dearth of attention fool you -- this is a scandal. Congress has turned its back on safeguarding a core Constitutional protection and a centuries old requirement of Western justice.

Rage, rage against the dying of the 5th."

Story here: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/12/scandal-alert-congress-is-quietly-abandoning-the-5th-amendment/266498/
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 21, 2012 - 07:55am PT
Such a shameful and sad story above on indefinite detention of citizens. Americans and their politicians have become such cowards to permit such an evil perversion of the heart of the constitution. Obama and Bush are both responsible and worthy of disrespect over this

Even Rome in the time of Christ had greater protections for its citizens and they threw Christians to Lions

Peace

Karl
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 21, 2012 - 08:37am PT
I have written my reps at least ten times over this law.. It was passed 98 to 0 with 2 votes not present. Wonder if this is how folks thought in Germany in the very early 30s..
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:13am PT
Iranian officials have ordered residents of its third largest city to evacuate, raising new concerns about a potential leakage of radioactive material from a nuclear facility.

An edict issued on Wednesday told residents in Isfahan, a provincial capital of 1.5 million people 340 miles south of Tehran, to leave the city “because pollution has now reached emergency levels,” the BBC reported.

Michael Rubin, a former Pentagon adviser on Iran and Iraq and former editor of the Middle East Quarterly, said: “Pollution in Isfahan is a problem but in the past, Iranian authorities [responded] by closing schools and the government to keep people at home and let the pollution dissipate. Mass evacuations suggest a far more serious problem.”

Rubin added that a “radiation leak” is a possibility, the Washington Free Beacon reported, noting that the evacuation order may corroborate previous reports of radioactive leakage.

The Uranium Conversion Facility in Isfahan converts yellowcake into uranium oxide, uranium metal, and uranium hexafluoride. The plant sits on an active fault line, and Isfahan has been heavily damaged six times by earthquakes, according to the Free Beacon.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:25am PT
It's OBOMERS fault. If he hadn't imposed sanctions, they would be able to have first class, safe, uranium enrichment sites.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 18, 2013 - 10:10am PT


"U.S. Federal Court hits President Barack Hussein Obama with three charges of abuse of office"
Submitted by galtgulch on Sun, 02/17/2013 - 15:23
in
Daily Paul Liberty Forum
Link to article at Before ITs News:

http://beforeitsnews.com/blogging-citizen-journalism/2013/02...






PLEASE NOTE: When i copied and pasted the article in whole, it was here for a second or two then GONE. And gone from the original source..Within a minute.....??????
Bharata

Mountain climber
Pune
Feb 18, 2013 - 10:42am PT
our lord and savior president cannot do will not do us wrongs.
why not be silent you misbehaving dogs?
http://theobamahustle.wordpress.com/




Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 18, 2013 - 11:23am PT
like the article in yesterday's Sunday NYTimes, "Can the Republicans Be Saved From Obsolescence?"
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/magazine/can-the-republicans-be-saved-from-obsolescence.html
ROBERT DRAPER

many good observations and wonderful lines in that one... from the mouths of the young faction of the G.O.P....

but this one might be pertinent to this discussion, and some food for thought about the next couple of decades... taking from the Democrat's history...

“It ought to concern people that the most Republican part of the electorate under Ronald Reagan were 18-to-29-year-olds. And today, people I know who are under 40 are embarrassed to say they’re Republicans. They’re embarrassed! They get harassed for it, the same way we used to give liberals a hard time.”

what goes around, comes around
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 18, 2013 - 11:39am PT
Perhaps Ed.. Yet,, Obama said when he was running, that it was totally irresponsible of a president not to have a budget and a debt ceiling, and now he seeks to remove the debt ceiling. He has engaged us in ILLEGAL war actions just like his predecessors. And he has ILLEGALY appointed positions behind the back of the senate and congress. The NDAA 2013 bill is full of actions contrary to our Constitution.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Feb 18, 2013 - 11:44am PT
Despite what it sounds like, the debt ceiling does almost nothing to limit our debt.

All it really does is risk our creditworthiness.

John M

climber
Feb 18, 2013 - 11:45am PT
Ron.. I doubt Ed's post was strictly about who is better. Its about .."what goes around comes around". It doesn't matter if its a liberal doing it or a conservative. If you treat the other side with disrespect, you can expect it will eventually come back to bite you. Right now the GOP is reaping the rewards or belittling the liberals for decades. I believe that there is a lesson in that and the liberals would be wise to not belittle the needs of the conservatives, or the pendulum will swing back the other way. Balance is what is needed.

I personally find it hard to do because after having been derided as a dirty little hippie for so long, I can barely stomach many conservatives. So I have to work hard to be respectful. And it seems like the conservatives still haven't learned the lessons of being disrespectful. They are still predominately incredibly arrogant.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 18, 2013 - 11:47am PT
Yes Dave,,ours and everyone elses we are in debt with..And that is a concern, no?

And John,, yes i see your point,, but to call one side or the other worse isnt hitting the mark.. We see that rather clearly here in the threads.


CLEARLY both the Dems and Repubs have engaged in illegal wars in the last decade. Clearly, BOTH sides are at fault. And its a DEM in charge now, and hes circumvented the constitution over and over. If you detested bush for his actions, you MUST do the same for Obama.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Feb 18, 2013 - 11:59am PT
I personally find it hard to do because after having been derided as a dirty little hippie for so long, I can barely stomach many conservatives. So I have to work hard to be respectful. And it seems like the conservatives still haven't learned the lessons of being disrespectful. They are still predominately incredibly arrogant.

You liberals just want free stuff.
Bharata

Mountain climber
Pune
Feb 18, 2013 - 12:06pm PT
yes those arrogant republicans are irritating us all with their unreasonable work ethics. why not chain them permanently to jobs if they like work so hard and we continue the free ride. our good liberal president should not care how much they suffer only how much tax money he can get from them.

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 18, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
I personally find it hard to do because after having been derided as a dirty little hippie for so long, I can barely stomach many conservatives. So I have to work hard to be respectful. And it seems like the conservatives still haven't learned the lessons of being disrespectful. They are still predominately incredibly arrogant.

The only fertile ground that exists for respect lies with shared values, of which there is quite a bit when you get right down to it. Everyone values liberty, freedom and equality..... well maybe not so much with equality..... but the lack of respect has much to do with an attitude of certainty of righteousness and intolerance for alternative processes, which the "conservatives" are largely responsible for. Conservatives must divorce themselves from the right wing authoritarian extremists if they ever expect to coexist with other cultures.

Which is what it boils down to. Dominate or co-exist? That is the question. The right wing answer is to dominate. Which explains their undying love for guns and militarism. In terms of civilization potential, the right wing aspires to the mediocre at best. Liberal Democrats aspire to a higher potential. We know which is of a higher moral standing it is just a question of what is practically attainable, with the least risk.
John M

climber
Feb 18, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
You liberals just want free stuff.

Damn Straight!. LOL

...

good post Bruce..
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 18, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
Pope Kay?? LOL! GUD one anyhoo...
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Feb 18, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
Which is what it boils down to. Dominate or co-exist? That is the question. The right wing answer is to dominate. Which explains their undying love for guns and militarism. In terms of civilization potential, the right wing aspires to the mediocre at best. Liberal Democrats aspire to a higher potential. We know which is of a higher moral standing it is just a question of what is practically attainable, with the least risk.

You liberas just want free stuff.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 27, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
The US direct cash aid to....


Hamas - $351 M,

Libya $1.45 B,

Egypt - $397 M,

Mexico - $622 M,

Russia - $380 M,

Haiti - $1.4 B,

Jordan - $463 M,

Kenya - $816 M,

Sudan - $870 M,

Nigeria - $456 M,

Uganda - $451 M,

Congo - $359 M,

Ethiopia - $981 M,

Pakistan - $2 B,

South Africa - $566 M,

Senegal - $698 M,

Mozambique - $404 M,

Zambia - $331 M,

Kazakhstan - $304 M,

Iraq - $1.08 B,

Tanzania - $554 M,

...with literally Billions of Dollars

and they still hate us!!!!



While we cant take care of our own..? Anyone care to justify this? It is a dem and repub issue. And NOTE Hamas ! WTF? We are sponsoring both sides of a war??
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Mar 27, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
Where's my free stuff? sh#t I'm happy with 20% off most times.

Ron, that does seem unjustifiable. is that spelt right?
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