Your average Democrat

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 1181 - 1200 of total 1361 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 11, 2012 - 01:58am PT
How did Israel provoke the attacks on their Statehood in 1945-46,

They unilaterally declared themselves a state (just like they decry the Palestinians for doing)

Remember, there were less than 10,000 jews in Israel at the turn of the 20th century. England was the colonial power who ruled that land there (as if they had ANY right to do that, or give the land to people who weren't even living there) very convenient for everyone but the Palestinians.

and of course they won and got the spoils, only by virtue of being supported by modern western weapons

Peace

Karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 11, 2012 - 02:02am PT
They forgot to mention any borders in there. Polite way of saying, move along to the ovens bitte in my mind....

Dude, it's Israel that refuses to suggest what it's borders should be and is in defiance of UN resolutions calling for it to return to its 1967 borders which were still far in excess of it's UN mandate

Peace

Karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 11, 2012 - 02:36am PT
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/12/09-0

Walid al Nassasra and two of his daughters stand staring into the pit where his brothers sheet-metal roofed, cinder-block home stood until it was hit in a pin-point strike with a precision guided bomb from an F-16 fighter jet (provided by the United States) on 19 Nov 2012 at 10 pm as the family slept. If not for the clothes and bedding strewn about, it would be difficult to tell that a home once stood here. His brother Taqwfiq, like Walid, is a farmer. Their family has been farming in the Rafah area of Gaza for 35 years. They are poor people, scratching out a living on a small plot of land. As we sat and talked with Walid, Israeli F-16's roared across the sky.

His brother as well as a 12 year old nephew remains hospitalized, the nephew is in the ICU with skull and hip fractures. His sister-in-law is blind after her head and upper body was severely burned.

His 4 year-old niece suffers severe burns and a fractured leg stabilized by an external fixation device. In this kind of reduction, holes are drilled into uninjured areas of bones around the fracture and special bolts or wires are screwed into the holes. Outside the body, a rod or a curved piece of metal with special ball-and-socket joints joins the bolts to make a rigid support. The fracture can be set in the proper anatomical configuration by adjusting the ball-and-socket joints. Since the bolts pierce the skin, proper cleaning to prevent infection at the site surgery must be performed. Yes, I said his niece is 4 years old. She has been released to the home. They bring her to us to show us her damaged body, her face covered in burns, her leg with eight metal screws holding it together. She is crying. All 9 surviving members of the family were injured in the blast.

Two nephews, Ahmed and Mohamed, were killed. (Yes, every Martyr, innocent civilian, and resistance fighter here has a name. Everyone killed here has family left behind who grieves for them. Everyone.)

There was no warning given. No calls, no leaflets, no roof tapping. Just an enormous explosion in the night that made Walid think his house was bombed, eighty meters away, as all the windows exploded and the walls rattled.

When Walid was asked what he would say to the people of the US, he said, "The American people already received our message. During 'Cast Lead' the American people saw that the majority of the martyrs and injuries were civilians, and they didn't do anything. They deal with Israel as if it is a state in America."

President Obama said, "There’s no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders." We supply the planes, we supply the bombs, we supply the vetoes at the UN Security Council that gives cover to these crimes. We as Americans are complicit. The question is, "How much longer will we tolerate it?"


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 11, 2012 - 03:31am PT
Ya gotta love republicans - first they decide all we need to do is tip a domino or two in the Mideast and democracy will spread like wildfire. When the resulting democracies aren't to their liking it's somehow the democrats' fault. Hilarious if it weren't so savagely ignorant and hypocritical.

P.S. Blue, hey as one of those unique long-haired, doper, religious, code-word racists, just how is it the Jews get a pass - or is it just one of those evangelical deals where you only diss them under your breath among each other?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 11, 2012 - 04:22am PT
A wee history lesson for BlueBalls, CrouchFaster, Rong and tEEEEgEEEEtEEEE.


http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2010/10/03/the-deathmasters-israeli-massacres-on-palestinians/

The following list of massacres is by no means exclusive, but they reflect the nature of the Zionist occupation of Palestine and Lebanon and show that massacres and expulsions were not aberrations that happen in any war, but organized atrocities with only one aim, that is to have a Zionist state which is ‘goyim rein’.

The King David Massacre
The Massacre at Baldat al-Shaikh
Yehida Massacre
Khisas Massacre
QAZAZA MASSACRE
The Semiramis Hotel Massacre
The Massacre at Dair Yasin
NASER AL-DIN MASSACRE
THE TANTURA MASSACRE
BEIT DARAS MASSACRE
THE DAHMASH MOSQUE MASSACRE
DAWAYMA MASSACRE
HOULA MASSACRE
SHARAFAT MASSACRE
Salha Massacre
The Massacre at Qibya
KAFR QASEM MASSACRE
Khan Yunis Massacre
The Massacre in Gaza City
Al-Sammou’ Massacre
Aitharoun Massacre
Kawnin Massacre
Hanin Massacre
Bint Jbeil Massacre
Abbasieh Massacre
Adloun Massacre
Saida Massacre
Fakhani Massacre
Beirut Massacre Sabra And Shatila Massacre
Jibsheet Massacre
Sohmor Massacre
Seer Al Garbiah
Maaraka Massacres
Zrariah Massacre
Homeen Al-Tahta Massacre
Jibaa Massacre
Yohmor Massacre
Tiri massacre
Al-Naher Al-Bared Massacre
Ain Al-Hilweh Massacre
Oyoun Qara Massacre
Siddiqine Massacre
A-Aqsa Mosqie Massacre
The Ibrahimi Mosque Massacre
The Jabalia Massacre
Aramta Massacre
Eretz Checkpoint Massacre
Deir Al-Zahrani Massacre
Nabatiyeh (school bus) Massacre
Mnsuriah Massacre
The Sohmor Second Massacre
Nabatyaih Massacre
Qana Massacre
Trqumia Massacr
Janta Massacre
24 Of June 1999 Massacres
Western Bekaa villages Massacre:
The Gaza Cast Lead Massacre (2008-2009)
The Mavi Marmara Massacre May 31, 2010
The Nakba Day Massacre May 15, 2011
The ongoing Silent or Silenced Massacre
The June 5 2011 Naksa Day Massacre
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 11, 2012 - 04:29am PT
And another.
http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2012/03/11/the-rocket-from-gaza-myth-photography/


Credit: philo
Credit: philo
Credit: philo
jghedge

climber
Dec 11, 2012 - 04:35am PT
"Um, no. Your president fomented this. Remember, the Arab Spring? This is on you idiots! You called for this. You OWN IT!!!!

People like me told you f*#king idiots this would backfire!!!! Who would fill the power--vacuum??? Idiots!"

Hahahahaha, and no amount of fact-based, sourced, arrtibuted journalism and historical record to the contrary will convince you otherwise, of course - nor will you even bother to read it. You'll just believe whatever makes you feel good.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 11, 2012 - 04:47am PT
One more lesson for good measure.


4 myths about the Israeli attack on Gaza
by Pam Bailey on November 20, 2012 38

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/11/4-myths-about-the-israeli-attack-on-gaza.html


As Israel continues to pound the Gaza Strip, and factions within the beleaguered territory retaliate as best they can, there are many myths and stereotypes dominating mainstream media coverage, and many conversations.

Here are a few of the most common misunderstandings:

Myth: Hamas started the round of fighting that led to Israel’s “Operation Pillar of Defense.”

Fact: This myth represents a common error in mainstream – and even much progressive – media coverage. The “truth” all depends on when you start the timeline. What is clear is that while both Israel and resistance groups in Gaza bear responsibility for keeping the warfare going, Israel is more often the precipitator.

In an analysis that has received very little attention by Western audiences, Nancy Kanwisher (the Walter A. Rosenblith Professor of Cognitive Neuroscience at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology) asks, “As Israel and Palestine suffer a hideous new spasm of terror, misery and mayhem, it is important to ask how this situation came about…How did the (last) ceasefire unravel?”

President Barak Obama and the mainstream media in the United States and Israel place the blame squarely on Hamas. It is true that a barrage of Palestinian rockets have been fired into Israel, and that ending this rocket fire is the stated goal of the current Israeli invasion of Gaza. However, this simplistic summary leaves out crucial facts. Consider this chain of events, which followed a “lull” of sorts over the previous couple of weeks: (The details of what took place during these days vary somewhat from one media outlet to another. However, the broad strokes are the same.)

· Nov. 4: Israel killed a mentally ill Palestinian walking near the Israeli-imposed “no-go zone” inside the Gaza Strip -- an event that triggered a rocket from Gaza into southern Israel, which did not cause any deaths or injuries.

· Nov. 8: Four Israeli military tanks and a bulldozer entered Gaza, fatally shooting a 13-year-old boy who had been playing soccer by his family’s house.

· Nov. 10: In retaliation, two rockets were fired from Gaza into southern Israel, and an anti-tank missile injured four soldiers, when it hit an Israeli army jeep that had crossed over into the territory. Meanwhile, the Palestinian Center for Human Rights reported the killing of five more Palestinians, four of whom were civilians – including two soccer players age 16 and 17 and two young men (18 and 19) who ran to the scene. Forty-nine others were wounded, including 10 children.

· Nov. 11: Amid talks of a truce, six more Palestinians (all but one were civilians) were wounded and another was killed by both air strikes and troops on the ground.

· Nov. 12: With Israeli air strikes continuing, two rockets from Gaza hit Israel.

· Nov. 13: After two mid-afternoon air strikes, news services announced a truce had been agreed-upon.

· Nov. 14: Israel ignored the nascent truce and assassinated Hamas military chief Ahmad al-Jabari. (It is questionable whether Israeli officials ever really wanted a truce. As Phyllis Bennis from the Institute for Policy Studies wrote in The Nation: “Earlier this year, on the third anniversary of the Gaza assault of 2008/9, Israeli Army Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Benny Gantz told Army Radio that Israel will need to attack Gaza again soon, to restore what he called its power of ‘deterrence.’ He said the assault must be ‘swift and painful,’ concluding, ‘we will act when the conditions are right.’ Perhaps this was his chosen moment.”)

A fact not known by most Americans, who see Jabari as merely a leader of “terrorists,” is that Israeli activist Gershon Baskin confirmed that Jabari was engaged in peace settlement negotiations with Israel. In fact, he was due to send Hamas’ version of a draft agreement to Baskin on the Wednesday evening before he was killed. It’s worth asking: Did Israel intend to torpedo those efforts?

The rest of the story is tragic history. Jabari’s killing triggered Operation Pillar of Defense, and it continues to unfold.

“It is overwhelmingly Israel that kills first after a pause in the conflict,” writes Kanwisher, who analyzed the entire timeline of killings between Palestinians and Israelis from September 2000 to October 2008, to determine if there was a historical pattern. “Seventy-nine percent of all conflict pauses (during the study period) were interrupted when Israel killed a Palestinian, while only 8% were interrupted by Palestinian attacks (the remaining 13% were interrupted by both sides on the same day). In addition, we found that this pattern -- in which Israel is more likely than Palestine to kill first after a conflict pause -- becomes more pronounced for longer (ceasefires). Indeed, of the 25 periods of nonviolence lasting longer than a week, Israel unilaterally interrupted 24, or 96%, and it unilaterally interrupted 100% of the 14 periods of nonviolence lasting longer than nine days.”

One of the lessons from these data, she writes, is, “If Israel wants to reduce rocket fire from Gaza, it should cherish and preserve the peace when it starts to break out, not be the first to kill.”

Myth: Israel is killing militant “targets.”

Fact: The victims are humans, not “targets.” They have names, families, stories worth telling.

At the close of Nov. 19, Euro-Mid Observer for Human Rights reported that 110 Palestinians had been killed, including 25 children, 14 senior citizens and 12 women. Seventy-two percent were civilians, with no active involvement in the resistance. Another 891 Palestinians (including 277 children, 164 women and 62 seniors) had been wounded.

[In contrast, various Israeli sources report a total of 664 rockets from Gaza have hit southern Israel. Three Israeli civilians have been killed and a reported 10 civilians and four soldiers have been injured.]

In an iconic photograph circulated widely on the Internet, Jihad Misharawi, a BBC Arabic journalist who lives in Gaza, carries the body of his 11-month old son, Omar, through al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City. A round of Israeli missile fire hit Misharawi’s four-room home in Gaza, killing his son. Misharawi’s sister-in-law was also killed, and his brother wounded. He told his manager at BBC that when the missiles hit, there was no fighting in his residential neighborhood.

The killing of Misharawi’s son received so much attention because he works for a major Western news outlet, and his agony was captured so graphically on film. However, there are many other stories that are not being told. With one of the youngest populations in the world, over half of Gaza's 1.7 million residents are aged under 18.

In May, 2012 Salon columnist Glenn Greenwald observed: “Virtually every time the U.S. [or Israel] fires a missile and ends the lives of Muslims, American media outlets dutifully trumpet in headlines that the dead were ‘militants’ – even though those media outlets literally do not have the slightest idea of who was actually killed. They simply cite always-unnamed ‘officials’ claiming that the dead were ‘militants.’ It’s the most obvious and inexcusable form of rank propaganda: media outlets continuously propagating a vital claim without having the slightest idea if it’s true.”

In the words of one Gazan Palestinian, on Facebook: We are not numbers, we are humans! We have names, we have families, we have kids, we have emotions, we have feelings .... Every life has a story ... Just like you and just like any human being! We are not f*#king news and death reports!! We are not F*#king Numbers!! We are HUMAN SOULS.

Myth: Israel protects civilians by airdropping leaflets warning residents of Gaza to avoid locations and individuals affiliated with Hamas.

Fact: In the last five days, Israel has bombed an estimated 1,643 sites in an area that is just 140 square miles – about twice the size of Washington DC. Hamas is the party that runs the local government. The question must be asked: Just where are the people supposed to hide?

Myth: Retaliation by Palestinians is either terrorism or just plain stupidity. The former is the common belief of advocates of Zionism, and the latter is a frequent concern (albeit not often expressed openly) among liberal supporters of Palestinian rights.

Fact: The right to self-defense (most often through “retaliation”) is enshrined in international law and was America’s own first response after it was attacked on Sept. 11, 2001. Why was it ethical for the U.S., but not for Palestinians?

As one young Gazan wrote on Facebook: “When you see your family killed by Israeli soldiers in front of your eyes and you see your house demolished in front of you, you feel so angry that you want to fight back. But once you fight back, you are called a terrorist and the aggressor becomes the victim who has the right of defense.”

Catherine Charratt, a PhD candidate in international politics at the UK’s Aberystwyth University, recently wrote:
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 11, 2012 - 04:49am PT
And for emphasis;

**
Myth: Israel protects civilians by airdropping leaflets warning residents of Gaza to avoid locations and individuals affiliated with Hamas.

Fact: In the last five days, Israel has bombed an estimated 1,643 sites in an area that is just 140 square miles – about twice the size of Washington DC. Hamas is the party that runs the local government. The question must be asked: Just where are the people supposed to hide?
**


My own children have aunts, uncles and cousins living in the Palestinian Territories under Israel's ILLEGAL OCCUPATION.
How long will it take CockEye to come forth to spittle frothy santorum about how wrong, ignorant and off base I am.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2012 - 06:54am PT
Philo, and how many rockets, did you say, were fired INTO Israel before they got pissed and responded? As far as unbalanced response, have we EVER done less when provoked similarly??


"It's not "Muslims vs. Jews" in Palestine, there are many Christian Palestinians that are subject to the same humiliations of occupation. As for Hamas, Israel is as much to blame for Hamas' rising influence in the region as anyone. Even ignoring their early support and funding as a religious foil to the secular Fatah, they have continued to play the various factions against each other to ensure that there is no "credible partner" to negotiate with. It's no surprise that helping make Fatah ineffectual has led to Hamas gaining power."

Somewhat true, however, Christians can (and do) vote, and worship as they choose and are treated as Christians in the US are except they have not elected a Christian leader....yet, whereas we have not elected a Jewish one. The Christians are not continually calling for the death of all Jews. That Israel plays off the various factions is one way to keep them from taking your scalp.

Joseph, it is a good point about the territorial grab, but if the alternative is death, what do you expect them to do? They are at war and have been since it's founding, deeply ideologically torn between 2 opposing points of views and beliefs. One side (only) will be the victor, Karl doesn't get to have everyone hold hands and sing Kumbayah despite his best wishes. Won't happen. Pick one side. That's all we have here until the Muslims decide to allow the jews their own country.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:50am PT
it wasnt JEWS who flew planes into the towers. It wasnt a jewish underwear or shoe bomber either. Nor was the guy that went to blow up Manhattan. Nor was the Ft Hood Shooter, or the four Californians who were going to afghanistan to blow up US troops. Nope,, those were ALL muslims. And most trained HERE under the guise of being "friendly immigrants" and citizens..
That is a CANCER among us NOW. And amongst the rest of the world too. And every where they are, its a complete chaotic mess of murder , genocides and attacks.

So how on earth anyone wants to side with Hamas is beyond me. Unless its just yammering for the under dog, which in this case isnt accurate as hamas is supported by Iran..and the brotherhood.

So when gaza is under the rule and being supplied by radical islamists like Iran, its obvious they are not on the side of peace.


shakin' man

Trad climber
california
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:58am PT
I couldn't hear this newsworthy item on our swarthy president through the din of this forum. I think it looks more like his wife.

http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/10/15823225-ancient-lizard-that-died-out-with-the-dinosaurs-named-after-obama?lite

looks just like him or your average democrat
looks just like him or your average democrat
Credit: shakin' man
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 11, 2012 - 09:14am PT
Oh Couch when will you quit eating the pabulum of the one sided narrative you have been stewed in? How much weight of evidence will you require before you question your beliefs even a little?

There have been 24 Israeli incursions into Gaza since the cease fire. Since Israel "disengaged" from Gaza there have been on average six military incursions a month by the IDF into the Occupied Territories. Oh but you are convinced that all Israelis are innocent victims and that all Palestinians are evil blood thirsty terrorists. I feel sorry for you and your skewed perspective.

Pre 1948 Palestine had the highest level of literacy in the Arab world. They had the highest percentage of college educated people in the Arab world. They had the highest percentage of Christian Arabs in the Arab world. They had one of the highest standards of living in the region.

Now they are reduced to being prisoners fighting for survival in their own land.
The US is set to send Israel $627,000,000 more of our tax monies as military aid to resupply the weapons stock depleted after their last episode of war crimes.

From the beginning Israel has been the aggressor with the clear agenda of eliminating the indigenous Semitic peoples from their intended Kingdom of Greater Israel.

Supporting the Zionist Agenda makes you an Anti-Semite.



philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 11, 2012 - 11:02am PT

PSSSST hey Ron news flash it wasn't Palestinians either.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 11, 2012 - 11:15am PT
perhaps not, but it was the PLO, then Hamas. And thats who makes the calls there.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 11, 2012 - 11:18am PT
it wasnt JEWS who flew planes into the towers. It wasnt a jewish underwear or shoe bomber either. Nor was the guy that went to blow up Manhattan. Nor was the Ft Hood Shooter, or the four Californians who were going to afghanistan to blow up US troops.


PSSSST hey Ron news flash it wasn't Palestinians either.


perhaps not, but it was the PLO, then Hamas. And thats who makes the calls there.



PLO, HAMAS really where? Are you claiming the Palestinians were involved in any of these incidents?
Or are you saying they were the masterminds behind it all?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 11, 2012 - 11:56am PT
The Ft. Hood shooter was of Palestinian descent and that incident and the lives lost is part and parcel of the cost of our entirely one-sided support of Israel. So long as we aid and abet the outright and wholesale taking of all of Palestine we will continue to lose service men and women to that cause. You can't have it both ways or expect the Palestinians to simply march into the sea and drown themselves. I wouldn't, I'd pursue an asymmetric response to what basically amounts to an indirect genocide of other words and means.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 11, 2012 - 11:57am PT
That is a CANCER among us...

You may want to look up the etymology of that phrase when applied to people.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 11, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
It wasnt JEWS who flew planes into the towers. It wasnt a jewish underwear or shoe bomber either. Nor was the guy that went to blow up Manhattan. Nor was the Ft Hood Shooter, or the four Californians who were going to afghanistan to blow up US troops. Nope,, those were ALL muslims. And most trained HERE under the guise of being "friendly immigrants" and citizens..
That is a CANCER among us NOW. And amongst the rest of the world too. And every where they are, its a complete chaotic mess of murder , genocides and attacks.


Dude, maybe if we hadn't overthrown the democratically elected leader of Iran in 1954, supported Saddam Hussein during his worst crimes against his own people, supported all the other mideast kings and dictators like Mubarak, the Saudi and Kuwaiti kings, and supported Israel as they stole ever more Palestinian land, then there were wouldn't be any blowback from Muslims toward the United States. THere wouldn't have been an islamic revolution in Iran for starters.

9-11 was a tiny bloody nose compared with the injustice we've visited on the Muslims first, and we cry and moan about our own nose, but have little regard for the 100,000s of dead after our illegal and unjustified last Iraq invasion that created Millions of refugees.

But of course, we are precious to ourselves and don't give a crap about those others..

I promise you, if we did 1/10th of what we did to the Arab world in the name of oil and power, to Israel, the Israeli would assassinate that president asap. As it is, Israel has sent more spies to the United States to spy on us than the rest of the muslim world combined. Some are still in jail here

peace

Karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 11, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
And amongst the rest of the world too. And every where they are, its a complete chaotic mess of murder , genocides and attacks.


Ron, you can take the past 10 years or the past 100 years, and the United States has killed FAR more people and, in many, many countries, than the Islamic world that you say is a mess of Murder. and despite Islamic Sharia Law, which I detest as well, the United States locks up a greater share of its own citizens per capita than ANY Islamic Tyranny, BY FAR

it's just that we're too great of hypocrites to see the log in our own eye

Peace

Karl
Messages 1181 - 1200 of total 1361 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews