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couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 29, 2012 - 12:38pm PT
LOL

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 29, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
"New thread for the other side, have at it."

It's been done.

Over and over and over and over and over. Yawn.

Doesn't do anything but piss people off as it bumps more TR's and climbing-related material down.

Have at it.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 29, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
I'm guessing you're an expert on "Average."
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 29, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
That's it..! I'm voting for Romney...How could Obama trick us into thinking that he is liberal...?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Oct 29, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
Speaking of a typical Repugnican....

Credit: Sierra Ledge Rat
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
Hey, they got yer picture here:

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:31pm PT
Now THAT ^^^^^^^ is really quite accurate,,ive been labelled exactly as such on the other politard thread.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
shut the f*#k up . you racist . lying , hater....
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
SLR, I guarantee that guy has enough food and supplies to last a year. He probably doesn't give a sh*t about FEMA. He lives out on property because he likes privacy.


That's the worst meme ever, if that's how Libtards think, then they hold the name truly well.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
Stooge, delusional, liar, racist, hater, moron, neocon, faciast, redneck, inbred, repug, war monger, chickenhawk, third grader, little boy, fuglican, romneybot, bullshitter, POS, and a host of others is what ive been called by those that dont even no me, and for the most ive not returned the favor.

Nor have i threatened to riot over whom is chosen for president but i see many news articles telling of how obama supporters are doing just that.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
Bring out the pepper-spray. I hear them liberal type don't like it.

Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
^^^
Nice role model there Michaeld. Chubby probably lives out on there by himself because he's an anti-social paranoid who's incapable of getting along with others not like himself. No wonder he's a Republican.
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
Hey...

Wait a second here. First of all not "everyone" in "each party" is such a fanatic idiot.

I am a Democrat married to a Republican. We agree not to agree and... We actually do agree on a few things.

We are both...

Pro gun.
Believe in the right to choose when it comes to abortion.
Anti death penalty because it actually cost the state more to have folks in death row, (appeals, etc.)
We both hate Obama care. It does not regulate insurance companies and they are the one's making health care so outrageously expensive in the first place.
We both agree we need a better health system that provides to all, just not this one.
etc. etc.


In the end, we just want a better life and we are all Americans.


Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
hope no one is callin me CHUBBY! My girl friends did, but they werent talking my weight!



+1 Anastasia! Except the death row thing. We shouldnt pay for them at all other than a quick delivery of sentence. jmo..
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
Anastasia, what if Death Row meant they had 1 year to appeal their case before Execution?


Nice role model there Michaeld. Chubby probably lives out on there by himself because he's an anti-social paranoid who's incapable of getting along with others not like himself. No wonder he's a Republican.

Role Model? No. Just a person who believes in his rights. Do you? Probably not. You only care when they affect you directly.

Fat Dad, do you only climb at the gym because there are people there so you can be social? He probably lives out there because he lives in a small community and they have a lot of land per house. What's wrong with owning land?

Your fat, I take it, because your name.

Paranoid? Because he has an American flag? Or a Shotgun?

This country is failing because morons like you. No pride in anything but what you want as a (ignorant) person, not the principles on which this country was founded on.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
I must have hit a nerve Michael because you seem very butt hurt over a caustic response to your caustic posting. If you can't cope with rebuttals to your contributions, sarcastic or not, you may want to get some thicker skin or stay away from the keyboard.

A couple of quick points: not fat, dislike the gym and know my rights (as described in the Constitution and Bills of Rights) very well (better than most), and believe that people can more or less live wherever they want, though the choice of where to live can tell alot more about you then you might think. Sorry, but fat dude screaming while waving the flag and a shotgun while someone takes his pictures says nothing about "rights". It's only a poseur moment for the fat dude with a shotgun who believes he's making some statement that clearly brought a tear to your eye. If you believe there's content there then I suggest you're the one in need of study, not me. Sorry you're so guillable.

BTW, Anatasia, nice post. We should all respond as intelligently as you.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
I can't remembeer a harder belly laugh than I just had, except for some Friday night drunken posting sh#t, which is never as funny, really, as lampooning political asswipes.

My name's Rollie Finger-pointer, and I am voting on the Athletic ticket. You do not remember me. You do not remember me. You do not remember me. You do not remember me. You do not remember me.
Is it one finger or two for the split-finger fastball?  I dis-remember...
Is it one finger or two for the split-finger fastball? I dis-remember.



"OK, I know when my finger's licked."--Mouse said that
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
Sadly there have been a few folks on death row that after years of waiting to die, were later proven to be innocent. Our system is set up to prevent innocent men from dying and in theory would rather let a criminal be free. We want those folks wrongly jailed to have every chance to prove that. Yes, it does cost us way too much but imagine if you were that person, the one that actually was put away wrongly... This is the moral dilemma we try to rectify by allowing appeals. Goes by the motto, "innocent until proven guilty without doubt."

Good or bad, it's part of who we are.

AFS
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
Yes,, but then there are those like the theater shooter.. A simple walk out back and a firing squad is fitting.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
The people claiming to be democrats on that other thread give democrats a bad name.

Hey dumbasses. Did you look at the US debt when Obama took office? under 10 trillion. It's over 16 trillion currently and on a trajectory that withstands understanding by any rational soul. Watch it for 20 seconds or so to see yer guy at work and understand that you are dooming the country's future.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Yeah, I know your response: "IT'S BUSHES FAULT"....it would be funny if it wasn't so painful.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:48pm PT
I know Couch.. I wasnt against obama when he first popped on the scene- seemed fresh,, for a few minutes...

But after four years, and plans of govt spending they are afraid to even attempt to accurately cost, Its time for him to go. Not to memntion the ineptitude hes shown in dealing with circumstances that require immediate action. Too much politician to be commander.
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
Personally, I would not mind that. But alas... I respect the law above most things... I say most things because if I catch anyone hurting my son, abusing him in any way... I will not be sane. Nope... These are some powerful instincts.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
You're right, Anastasia. It's a part of who we are.

There was a time when every felony was punishable (and punished) by hanging. I thank God that is no longer true, because my date with the gallows would have taken place several years ago.

Now, in contrast, we have such a revulsion against intentional killing that we bend over backwards to make sure that we, as a society, don't do it to our prisoners. Even then, we still can get it wrong.

I sometimes wonder which is the greater number: those wrongly on death row, or those killed because a prisoner who, in earlier years, would have been executed was released. It could well be the latter, but I think that most members of society are more appalled at the prospect of the former.

John
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
Re the debt increase, here's some commentary from Politicfact.org. In short, over 50% of the debt increase is the result of Bush era tax cuts, the same policy that Romney will continue:
First, the bottom-line number on the debt: Yes, it has grown by $5 trillion during Obama’s tenure. Total debt has increased by $5.5 trillion since January 20, 2009, while the share of that debt held by the public has increased by $5 trillion.

But it’s not entirely correct to hang that increase on "Obama’s spending" alone.

In our previous item, we looked at calculations by the Treasury Department based on data from the Congressional Budget Office, the independent number-crunching arm of Congress.

To figure out what caused the accumulation of deficits over the past decade, CBO tracked the surplus it had projected back in 2001 and compared it with the actual cumulative deficits that resulted instead. CBO specifically broke out how much several laws contributed to the deficit, some of which started under Bush and some under Obama.

Because American Crossroads was only referring to the debt added during Obama’s tenure, we only looked at fiscal years 2009, 2010 and 2011. And because the American Crossroads ad does not reference how much the deficits fell below the surpluses that had been forecast by CBO, we’re going to exclude from our calculations a category CBO called its own "failures to predict economic conditions accurately."

We added up the lost revenue and additional spending each year and then calculated their percentage of the deficits over those three years.

Spending

Spending initiated by Bush policies: 4 percent of total deficits in 2009, 2010 and 2011
Spending initiated by Obama policies: 11 percent
Other increases in discretionary spending: 32 percent
Other increases in mandatory spending: 6 percent

Revenue reductions

Revenue reductions initiated by Bush policies: 11 percent
Revenue reductions initiated by Obama policies: 13 percent
Other unclassified revenue reductions: 5 percent

Interest

Net interest: 19 percent

The spending increases traceable to programs clearly attributable to Obama, combined with the increase in discretionary spending on his watch, account for about 43 percent of the three years worth of deficits.

So if you’re talking about what "drove us $5 trillion deeper in debt," then a clear majority stemmed from sources other than "Obama’s spending."

If you expand the definition from "Obama’s spending" to "Obama’s spending and tax cuts," you get to a total of 56 percent. Throw in 13 percentage points for the added interest costs of Obama’s policies and you’re at 69 percent.

Our ruling

The American Crossroads ad claims that "Obama’s spending drove us $5 trillion deeper in debt."

But not all of the $5 trillion can be attributed to Obama's spending. Much of it can be attributed to his tax cuts and the policies of President Bush. On balance, we rate the claim Half True.
Be careful what you wish for.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
Credit: Hawkeye

Credit: Hawkeye

Credit: Hawkeye

Credit: Hawkeye

Credit: Hawkeye

Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:09pm PT
Personally, I think anyone wanting this mess of being President is either a egomaniac or an idealist. There is no sane, rational person who would desire this kind of "no way to win," situation.

Yes, I dislike both candidates for very different and solid reasons. Neither of them impress me. Plus... No matter what, there is no quick fix. One, it's a BIG mess. Two, we are too engorged with a very slow moving government, We have too much bureaucratic red tape to get anything done. We are screwed so... My attitude is since I am screwed, I might as well enjoy the show.

Carry on folks. All the mud slinging is at least pointlessly entertaining.

AFS
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:13pm PT
lesser of evils, really.. Im not excited at the prospects. But i know the last four years hasnt done it and obamacare is a disaster in the waiting. I WISH it would have proven viable,, but it doesnt seem to be the case. Timing or techniques.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
Storm Warning!!

Everyone in the path of Hurricane Sandy should head immediately for the shelter of their third or fourth home.--I'm just plain old Mitt Romney, just an above-average political hack, and I approve this disguised campaign message

Warren Harding used every photo opp that came his way.

He was just your average Valley climber.

He never felt the need to tell vast lies like our recent Republican prexy.

Or drive anything better than a Corvette.

There are no average anythings, Couch Patty.

"Recrimination is painless" on the internet. I love it like I loved M*A*S*H.

"The Major happens to be the Korean distributor for crapola."--Hawkeye
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
And the New Democratic Party is not much like the Old Democratic Party. The old party was at least a party of unions -- practical-minded people. Obama has reshaped the Democratic Party into his own image -- an antiwar intellectual semi-professor. The New Democratic Party is the Nation magazine with candidates.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
the facts are illuminating.





Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
Interesting conversing here in the politard threads...I never really know who is at the other end -or seldom anyhow.. I once asked another member if apogee was a chick. True story. And i thought for sure jghedge was about 19 at most. So its always a fun surprise to get a glimpse of whos who..
And ive also accused DoF of acting like a previous girlfriend in that he would tell me he wont read any more of my posts then asks more questions..

Heres how one of those talks would go,, Her SHUT UP im not listening to you anymore, then she would ask me a question that i would answer and she would retort,, I dont wanna hear it. I caught on to that fairly quickly !;-)
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
Re the debt increase, here's some commentary from Politicfact.org. In short, over 50% of the debt increase is the result of Bush era tax cuts, the same policy that Romney will continue:

Lets just start calling them the Obama tax cuts for the rich since Obama and the democrats in the house and senate decided to extend them and not let them expire had they done nothing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_tax_cuts. Regardless, I suspect we are not in disagreement on that.

Coming up, "Taxmageddon":
"In February 2012, the term "Taxmageddon" was coined by Congressional aides to refer to December 31, 2012, the date of the expected implementation of government spending reductions and expiration of a large number of tax cuts, many of which are the tax cuts enacted under George W. Bush and extended by President Obama.[52][53] "

And the Bush blame game continues. (I give Bush some of this blame too) At least you'll have a new disaster to blame on Bush......We need to cut government spending: specifically reducing our military footprint.


SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Oct 29, 2012 - 06:12pm PT

The original Republican salute!!!!

wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny,sawdust does not work like chalk
Oct 29, 2012 - 07:49pm PT
we the people,..........americans turning their backs on other americans,.....sustainable.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
I don't think President Obama is responsible for the deaths and disaster of the attack of our embassy in Libya. He shouldn't even have been near to the decision making process on that kind of thing. In fact, if you put it in perspective, they are still trying to see and say what caused the Indian/Chinese conflict 50 years later:

http://claudearpi.blogspot.com/2012/04/why-henderson-brooks-report-has-never.html

Good read.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
he claimed LOUDLY he would cut them in HALF in his first term..
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
Yeah, I know your response: "IT'S BUSHES FAULT"....it would be funny if it wasn't so painful.

It would be funny if it weren't so true. And you think McCain would have done anything different? Not. Those cards were already long dealt by the time the president took office - any president.

Credit: healyje

You can't put three trillion dollars worth of Neocon pre-emptive wars on the national credit card and expect it to take less than a decade to climb out of the shitter. Anyone thinking this is Obama's fault because he couldn't turn W's trajectory around in one term is utterly delusional. Attempting to have done so would have instantly put us into a deep depression.

In reality our debt situation is courtesy of Reagan/Bush Sr/W militarism.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 11:49pm PT
he claimed LOUDLY he would cut them in HALF in his first term..

Cut whom in half Ron?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
He claimed a lot of things that haven't come true. Again, you think McCain / Palin campaign promises would have stacked up better with the economic hand that was already dealt? Not a chance - no one is turning this around in less than a decade and that's only if we stay out of significant military conflicts that long.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
It turns out Apogee is correct.

NOW HEAR THIS:

Abandon ship. This thread's not gonna reach the other shore.
See you on November 5th, suckers.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:03am PT
Suck it, righties!

Mitt Romney, spanked again!
Mitt Romney, spanked again!
Credit: dirtbag
bit'er ol' guy

climber
the past
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:24am PT
Wow......really, really lame.

stupid americans debate.

youtube clips presented as fact.

you can blame the political parties

but it's the blind dumbass followers like you

who waste your time sucking up this kind of vile media spew

until your so high on anger you spit it out as gospel without a second thought.

your being played.

we're being played!

your average american watches too much T.V.

drinks too much, smokes too much and waste thier money on useless crap.

sure buy a big ass gas guzzeling truck on credit

then whine about gas prices....

buy some more lottery tickets.....

then blame all your problems on.......the gubberment.

if you got any game at all, it shouldn't matter whothefcukthe president is.





mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Oct 30, 2012 - 05:47am PT
A few questions (hopefully answered by the posters on this thread).

1)The Iraq War wasn't fully accounted for in the debt or the budget by former President Bush when President Obama took office he accounted for it thus increasing the debt under his watch. My question is should he have not counted this in the budget or the debt?

2)The Federal Reserve (central bank)prints our currency. Each dollar is printed with interest attached to it. Our founding father's opposed central banking for this reason (among others). My question is do you support the Federal Reserve (central bank) system and why?

I look forward to well thought out and honest responses.

Thanks Eric
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 30, 2012 - 06:38am PT
I'm with Romney - let each state print their own money.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 30, 2012 - 06:43am PT
Money is the root of all politics.

Politics depends on it, or the system won't work.

Too much dumped in one side still doesn't guarantee a win.

And IMO the average Dem probably sees this and is repelled by the idea that a person might be elected who does believe this.

You know who 'They" are/is.

As to question one, IMO, the budget. It is likely (correct me if I'm wrong) that the budget would not support a war. But it's likely, too, that Congress would snipe the budgeteers.

But why add to the debt? That would really be bad news for the next generation. Not the kind of legacy I wish to leave.

Answer to number two: I don't trust the Fed. I did not say I support them, either. It's all we have for now. It is a glacial process, certainly, to make basic, sweeping changes in a financial system run by one single board and entrenched over many years.

However, we live in a United States. We use the same currency and our inflation rate in the last 50-60 years is (by one estimate, at least) the highest in a long while. The inflation of the units of currency here in the USA is around 600% since the founding of the Federal Reserve.

I emphatically do not trust that panel to provide the answer to this question. And I have no clue as to whether certain men are honest politicans. You vote and you take your chances to do so.
Others, like Mitt, make it easier for me, at leat, to choose.

I would not vote for a man on money issues, but he who has no job is all about mney. See how gullible I am?


philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 06:48am PT
Here is your "Average Democrat" Couch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_i1T87CLdg&feature=sharehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_i1T87CLdg&feature=share


Far more above average than any of you TeaBaglicant.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 30, 2012 - 06:52am PT
Our monetary system is fine, the real problem with our financial system is the percentage of it which has been moved 'off the books' into un- or under-regulated markets.
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Oct 30, 2012 - 11:46am PT
This is the USA public debt:
photo not found
Missing photo ID#271026
This is the monetary base:
photo not found
Missing photo ID#271027
This is the foreign debt:
photo not found
Missing photo ID#271028
This is real money:
photo not found
Missing photo ID#271030
Finally when those first 3 charts start to unwind towards the end of the next Obama adminstration you can expect even this doctored chart to reach for vertical...
photo not found
Missing photo ID#271031
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
heading for the cliff....

The fact that he has tripled the debt instead of cutting it in half as he promised during the 2008 campaign seems not to matter. As long as they have a bush to blame it on all is good with "the plan"..
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
How much came from being transparent about the real costs of Bush & Chenney's two illegal wars?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
The fact that Ron can't do simple math from a chart says plenty.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
tha FACTS are obama has increased the deficit.. NEVER cut anything in half other than people with jobs.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#269132
photo not found
Missing photo ID#270650
Average Republicans,
below average Americans.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
heres you average democrat at work:

"Bridwell is just an angry burned out husk" ---Dem,, 2012..
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
Truth hurts Ron.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
Yawnnnn.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
tha FACTS are obama has increased the deficit.. NEVER cut anything in half other than people with jobs.

Edit




no chyt....^^^^^^^
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:37pm PT
BTW Ron, Obama promised to cut the DEFICIT in half, not the national DEBT.

Do you know the difference?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:37pm PT
Philo, if Jim Bridwell is nothing but an angry burned out husk,, what are you?


yeah,, truth hurts.



see above mono
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:37pm PT
Well I don't know Ron, Illuminate me, what am I?
You wouldn't know a fact if it bit you.

And for the record here is my whole quote.

And for the record both Lynn and Jim did remarkable climbs. But Bridwell is an angry burned out husk. Lynn is still a upbeat active and vital person making a contribution to the world around her.
Please dispute with your inside info facts.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
YOU critiquing Bridwell.... snort,, chuckle guffawwww!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
You criticizing and critiquing Obama snort, chuckle, guffaw.
Suffering as you do from false equivalencies you just don't get it do you?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
"There's no shortage of their kind in the politically bluest parts of California. Liberals so freaked out about the prospect of President Obama losing his re-election bid that they can't sleep at night."

"...one of President Obama's top campaign strategists, has a word for supporters he feels are needlessly fretful: bed wetters."

http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/Dems-nervous-GOP-upbeat-as-vote-nears-3989238.php

Average Democrat = Bed Wetter. Obama's guy is right.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
You DONT see me bashing MY family, nor do you see me degrading the names of true climbing greats here. This is a matter of class - something youve proven to lack.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
Why is this it's own thread?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
You criticizing and critiquing Obama snort, chuckle, guffaw.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
OCTOBER 29, 2012 12:32 PM
What we owe the victims of Benghazi
BY DEREK HUNTER

The national media hves, for the most part, ignored the developments in the Benghazi scandal. They ask what they have to, they expose what they must, but they spend far more time on what some Senate candidate said or what the latest polls show than they do on what happened to our Libyan Ambassador Christopher Stevens, Sean Smith, Glen Doherty and Tyrone Woods.

We know the White House knew of the attacks while they were happening, that they had real-time communications with those under attack, received repeated cries for help, watched video of it live from drones overhead for seven hours and did nothing.

We also know CIA officers were repeatedly ordered to “stand down” that day and not aid those under attack, an order Doherty and Woods ignored and saved lives.

What we don’t know is who ordered them not to help, or who decided the military would sit this out.

Enter Kyle Clark.

Kyle is a reporter with KUSA in Denver and was able to interview the President as part of his campaign’s media outreach to swing states. Kyle asked, “Were the Americans under attack at the consulate in Benghazi Libya denied requests for help during that attack? And is it fair to tell Americans that what happened is under investigation and we'll all find out after the election?”

President Obama dodged it, hoping a non-answer would suffice. It didn’t.

Kyle asked again if those under attack were denied aid. The President’s answer is disturbing.

edit:Brandon, are you saying its ok for one side and not the other?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
Rong thinks 9/11 2012 = 9/11 2000
False equivalencies
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
Philo writes:

"Rong thinks 9/11 2012 = 9/11 2000"


What happened in 2000?
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:05pm PT
Anybody go back and actually read this thread? No wonder our world is sh#t, when there are real problems everyone just starts bitching and saying someone else is to blame. We are in this together, to stick to the mistaken idea that somehow we are independent is crap. Trying to win simply by defacing the other guy is something that adolescents do, putting forth ideas to solve problems, or work toward solutions is something statesman do, where have they gone?

The problem with Democrats is that they believe government and money can solve problems.

The problem with Republicans is that they are willing to sit by and watch government fail.

The problem with humans is that when things get scary, serious, and life threatening we stop thinking and start reacting, marginalizing, hoping no one notices that the floor is crumbling...

Charles
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:06pm PT
"What happened in 2000?"

A very important meeting called by Clinton with Shrub, Cheney and his security team regarding a pattern of communications and plans for a significant terrorist attack on the US sometime in the fall of 2001.

Clinton was patronizingly patted on the back, and shown the door.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
"The problem with Democrats is that they believe government and money can solve problems."

Not really true at all, except as it is hyperbolized in Republican political ads.


"The problem with Republicans is that they are willing to sit by and watch government fail."

99.9% true.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
Thank you Apogee.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
true to degrees Charles. But as the nation swirls, people are waking up,,slowly though.




USA :: Radical Islam :: Print this Article
FORMER CIA OFFICER: OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS WATCHED BENGHAZI TERROR ATTACK ON LIVE TV FEED AND LET AMBASSADOR DIE WITHOUT TRYING TO HELP
10-24-2012 3:02 pm - Glen Beck
Glenn invited Clare Lopez, a former CIA officer, onto his TV show Monday night to discuss the attack on the U.S. embassy on Benghazi. Lopez has written extensively on the situation in Libya, as well as on Ambassador Stevens’s connections to jihadist groups in Libya and Syria.

“What went on in Benghazi had it’s roots much further back,” Lopez told Glenn.

Lopez believed, much as Glenn does, that Ambassador Stevens was in Libya for reasons still not known publicly to the American people.

“It was to act as official U.S. government liaison to Al Qaeda linked jihadist militias. And they would include some of the same people now trying to overthrow Assad in Syria,” Lopez said.

She wrote of the events:

During the 2011 Libyan revolt against Muammar Qaddafi, reckless U.S. policy flung American forces and money into the conflict on the side of the rebels, who were known at the time to include Al Qaeda elements. Previously the number two official at the U.S. Embassy in Tripoli, Christopher Stevens was named as the official U.S. liaison to the Libyan opposition in March, 2011.

Stevens was tasked with helping to coordinate U.S. assistance to the rebels, whose top military commander, Abdelhakim Belhadj, was the leader of the Al Qaeda affiliate, the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG). That means that Stevens was authorized by the U.S. Department of State and the Obama administration to aid and abet individuals and groups that were, at a minimum, allied ideologically with Al Qaeda, the jihadist terrorist organization that attacked the homeland on the first 9/11, the one that’s not supposed to exist anymore after the killing of its leader, Osama bin Laden, on May 2, 2011.

Lopez, who was a CIA officer for twenty years, told Glenn that she had seen agents come under heavy fire in the past, but there were always people and assets who assembled to come to their aid. She found it unusual that with all the surveillance the White House and the administration had on the embassy that more was not done to provide aid.

“I have never seen a situation where a facility was under attack like that and nothing happens.”

Lopez added that Stevens knew he was a potential Al Qaeda target and lacked the security he needed to be in the country. Requests for increased security were denied by the State Department prior to the attacks on September 11th.

She also said it was her opinion that James Clapper, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, and General David Petraeus are all aware of what really happened in Libya.

“This has to be brought out. This has to be made known to the public. That this is going on and that our administration was not only working with the bad guys. Was working with Al Qaeda linked militas and jiihadis to overthrow Assad in Syria but that they let our mission go down.

They let our ambassador and others die. In real time, watching it happen, and they didn’t do anything about it,” Lopez said.
Eric Beck

Sport climber
Bishop, California
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
I have been a strong Obama supporter. We had an Obama sign up in our yard before he was even nominated. However, he has done something very bad and done it gratuitously.
Section 1013 of the National Defense Authorization act allows indefinite preventive detention of anyone with out them being charged. These people will have no access to an attorney. This provision was specifically requested by Obama. See:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/09/1043781/-Why-Obama-Will-Not-Veto-NDAA-Military-Detention-of-Americans-He-Requested-It

My own guess as to why he did this is that he and the 1% were genuinely frightened by the Occupiers and wanted more ammunition to fight them.

This leaves me in a big quandry. I can't stand Romney. Perhaps I whould vote for Jill Stein, Rocky Anderson or Gary Johnson.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
Eric, he took the patriot act to extremes never thought of...Especially for one who promised TRANSPARENCY...Something we havent seen at all!
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
We would all get along easier if Democrats dropped gun issues and Republicans dropped the anti-gay agenda...

Charles
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:20pm PT
agreed. Gays are here to stay- and thats their right, as gun sales hits all time highs again..


areas GOVT doesnt belong: ANY personal choices as in abortions, sexual conducts etc etc.. But the govt shouldnt pay for any of it.

If you CANT afford a child,, DONT HAVE ONE!
dirtbag

climber
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
Credit: dirtbag
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
annnnd Dirt for the WIN!!!!!!!!!!;-)
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
Having a problem finding the source, so forgive me, but I heard sometime last year that some of the most stridently conservative inland California counties also use the most government support. I'll keep looking for the source on that...

Charles
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
Just IMAGINE, for a moment,, if everyone were to switch parties and ALL become independent over night.

It would turn washington on its ear. Weve got problems this election wont address one iota...

Either way we wind up with a politician. Regardless of who wins,, it is up to WE the friggin PEEPS to keep up the demands of accountability. Its up to US to sort the chaff from the grain. We can set idly by or we can get VOCAL.

Ive watched the two candidates MODIFY there speeches tactics and commercials as they listen to the countless grumblings going on. This MAY,,(MIGHT- MAYBE) a good sign, in at least they listen during the campaign, which could be considered step one. Of course they all do that to a degree, and then once in office its a whole new critter. That is the part needing work. CAMPAIGN REFORM is the ONLY answer i see to removing the hands from the pockets.

The lies and propoganda from BOTH SIDES in this election have been astounding on any level. For anyone to think this somehow makes America look good in the global view is very high comedy. It has done nothing but erode trust.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
socialclimber,

Nationwide Red states rely more heavily on government assistance than Blue ones do.
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
Fat Dad, that is interesting, but I want a source, even when I make the claim I want a source, whoever told it to me gave me something, but I cannot find it, without some sources claims are nothing... its a reason I don't listen to Glenn Beck.

Charles
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 30, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
socialclimber,

PM username "jhedge" from mostly the Repubs are wrong thread

he posts lots of studies and charts proving red states get more fed dollars in than they pay in taxes out
Sparky

Trad climber
vagabond movin on
Oct 30, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
“The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”—Winston Churchill”
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 30, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
all these studies on fed monies dolled out currently will flip and flop like a fish out of water if obamacare continues on its path of self destruction.


An NO im NOT against a plan for the good of the people, but this one wont be it.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 30, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
What's wrong with Obamacare?

Got a better idea?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 30, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
Well, they start from a very low set bar.



Hell, Andy Jackson even ran the first free gubmint cheese program.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 03:26pm PT
So how many of those on the dole in those 'Red' states are Dems?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 30, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
Dirt,, no one has the figures, of when 2014 rolls around and we add multi millions to government debt.. Obama as is in in track to increase the deficit just like he has this previous four years. Doctors are already folding, and hospitals scramble for non medicare/medicaid patients to stay afloat. When the real affects hit what happens then? You may have to drive a considerable distance just to get to a doctor or hospital. You MAY have to wait for six months for that mri. You may still be paying through the nose for coverage and you may be denied coverage until 2014. You might also see TAXES go shooting upwards to attempt to encompass the COSTS. Deficit, govt spending and were are trillions past broke...Hows this gonna work again?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 30, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
Your average Democrat is......more intelligent than your average Republican. State IQ statistics for 2012 show that residents of the blue states have, across the board, higher average IQ's than the residents of the red states. You don't have to belong to Mensa to know what that infers.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 30, 2012 - 03:38pm PT
Ohwwww paleeese...

Yes high IQers.. Worked with several of those in the USFS... Quite bright they thought themselves to be.. Yet as ignorant of the actual forest and things real that they seemed all but brain dead.

I once had a forester -brilliant by test standards tell me of a three month old plantation with missle toe.. Then i pointed out to them they were looking at a 35 to 40 yr old banzai jeffery pine.. They said,,,, ohhhwwwww....Then i went on to tell them about missle toe and the fact it takes at least two years to manifest to a visible infection..To which they said,, ohhhhwwww....
Then i went over and showed the a seedling planted only 3 months ago- with fresh scalp etc etc etc.. I showed them that a two year old freshly planted seedling would only have needles and a bud...They were fascinated about that.



darkmagus

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
I love that (new?) argument that goes around trying to depict anyone that's liberal as "not tolerant" of intolerant people. It's an odd kind of logical fallacy that I can't quite put my finger on. But to them, I say, remember that our country was founded during "the enlightenment" and as such, expresses enlightenment-era values at its core. These values include, but are not limited to, things like freedom, reason, access to information, democracy, etc. The whole idea of it is to create a society that doesn't infringe on the freedoms of its individual members and their varied backgrounds and individual cultures. I suppose you can boil it down to: you can't tell someone what to do if they're doing nothing wrong (I.e. not infringing upon someone else's freedoms). So to take a classic example of something like gay marriage: if you're a republican and you want to be left alone and not heckled when you say hateful things about gays, you have to realize that you're f*#king with the core values of America when you demand the right to hate others of a particular group. What if you get what you want? Gay people can't marry or whatever. Do you want to put them in jail? Execute them? Where do you draw the line in terms of trying to take away another human's freedom? That's the whole point of this country, to have a place where you can be free and do your thing regardless of "religion, race, or creed". If your religion is the source of your distaste for gay marriage, for example, that's just your problem. Do we ban religion because it makes certain people hate other people? No one gets the right to decide what other people do, am I right? I mean, do you want people to tell you that you can't have guns? It's the same thing. If a dude wants to marry a dude, that's like you owning a gun. Some would say "that's f*#ked up", and perhaps they'd be right...or wrong...but it doesn't matter as long as everyone's basic freedom as a human isn't in question. So I say, stop that bullshit argument that sounds like, "aw come on, don't take away our right to be hateful oppressive bigots that wish to rob others of their freedoms as we deem appropriate..."
darkmagus

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:10pm PT
HO MAN that was my longest post yet.

Allow me to supplement it with some fine work from the geniuses at THE DEN OF LIBERAL INIQUITY (UC Berkeley):

http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/07/22_politics.shtml
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
State IQ statistics for 2012 show that residents of the blue states have, across the board, higher average IQ's than the residents of the red states. You don't have to belong to Mensa to know what that infers.

That inhabitants of blue states are unAmerican egghead intellectuals?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
Credit: eggheaded liberal somewhere in the 'netz
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
that explains why Norton is doing so good! Wonder why he votes against them? ;-)hehehehe
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
Having a problem finding the source, so forgive me, but I heard sometime last year that some of the most stridently conservative inland California counties also use the most government support. I'll keep looking for the source on that...

Charles

That doesn't surprise me, because the inland counties have huge unemployment problems. And as someone else has already suggested, I suspect that most of the recipients of government largesse here aren't Republicans.

I would add, though, that not all recipients of government largesse here are poor. I can think of several large farmers that live off the government dole, but then, many are Democrats.

Also, to the extent Social Security and Medicare constitute government expenditures, if the "red" states have disproportionate numbers of such recipients, that may explain the disparity.

Before the donkeys start to talk about the hypocrisy of wanting smaller government while collecting Social Security and Medicare, I would point out that it's not hypocritical to say "I wish I hadn't been required to pay for Social Security and Medicare" while, at the same time, collecting it. It would only be hypocritical if you gave them back all that was paid in on their behalf, and they then still insisted on receiving the same benefits.

John
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
The inland counties are where most of the state prisons are located.

Subtract prison spending, and run those numbers again. You'll see different results.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
"Average" Democrat. LOLz. It's the most diverse party our country has ever seen. Standing in stark, stark contrast to the overwhelmingly angry white geriatric obese male party.

To pretend that there is any such thing as an "average", in conversational use of the word, democrat is comical.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
well most of the folks i know that arent voting obama arent phat many are of other colour than pale too! Is fair not fair? ;-)
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
State IQ statistics for 2012 show that residents of the blue states have, across the board, higher average IQ's than the residents of the red states. You don't have to belong to Mensa to know what that infers.

That inhabitants of blue states are unAmerican egghead intellectuals?

Actually, Anders, Daniel Patrick Moynihan had an explanation that I think you'd like: The closer the state is to the Canadian border, the higher the average IQ.

In truth, I'm unaware of any state IQ statistics that aren't derived from standardized achievement testing. The latter testing differs from IQ, because the achievement necessarily depends on such factors as the proportion of proficient English speakers, and this is somewhat correlated with the latitude of the state involved. So while the disparate statistics (which, incidentally, don't reflect the difference Jim alleges) aren't unAmerican, maybe it does help to live closer to you Canadians.

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:42pm PT
To pretend that there is any such thing as an "average", in conversational use of the word, democrat is comical.

Or to quote Will Rogers, "I belong to no organized party. I am a Democrat."

John
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
Perhaps sanity and intelligence are a function of the distance one lives from the equator. Them Inuit is smart cookies.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:45pm PT
True but do they have high tech carbon fiber SLEDS!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
"...it's not hypocritical to say "I wish I hadn't been required to pay for Social Security and Medicare" while, at the same time, collecting it."


Yeah, it's easy to say that...reality is a whole different set of circumstances, though.

But just for the hell of it...let's say the GOP's wet dream was fulfilled, and SS & Medicare were wiped out completely tomorrow.

What would replace it? Private investment strategies that continue to be unregulated, and treat the investors as dumb piggybanks to be robbed?

Privately held medical insurance programs that maintain the shareholder's interests over the patient?

No thanks.

mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Oct 30, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
Well where are the responses to the questions I posed? Ron, Hawkeye, TGT, Corniss Chopper, etc?

No well thought out replies---what I expected actually. You would have to think, reason, and type. Way to hard of work to expect a Zomney supporter to do, especially when they have to search for brains.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 30, 2012 - 08:10pm PT
and you wonder why no one answered.. (sigh).

So let me see now,, youll email me asking how to's for putting up routes but then turn around and say im searching for my brain..

So how smart WOULD that make you at this juncture??
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2012 - 10:37pm PT
Well, not to change the subject, but it looks like Obama care is getting off very strong.

zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:38pm PT
Gooble Gobble

Don't expect any explanations here, watch the film and figure it out yourself



Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:56pm PT
Ron! Re your mention up-forum:

Yes high IQers.. Worked with several of those in the USFS... Quite bright they thought themselves to be.. Yet as ignorant of the actual forest and things real that they seemed all but brain dead.

I once had a forester -brilliant by test standards tell me of a three month old plantation with missle toe.. Then i pointed out to them they were looking at a 35 to 40 yr old banzai jeffery pine.. They said,,,, ohhhwwwww....Then i went on to tell them about missle toe and the fact it takes at least two years to manifest to a visible infection..To which they said,, ohhhhwwww....

I would be more impressed with your story, if you spelled Mistletoe correctly. Every Forest Sevice employee I ever worked with in Idaho called it Dwarfmistletoe, since it is only distantly related to English Mistletoe.
http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/fidls/d_fir/dmistletoe.htm

Yeah, but the smart guy didn't know schist. Must have been a Democrat.

You being a Forest Cop, obviously had the science down.

Yep!
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Oct 30, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
Ron my dad once told me he doesn't know everything but he can find out who to ask, once you find someone with the experience your looking for--ask, listen, and do what they say. In the bolting case I asked more than just you. I want to put up quality and am willing to be patient, prepare, plan, and execute.

Why can't you answer the questions?

1)Should Obama have not accounted for the expenditures accumulated under Bush for the Iraq war in our budget or debt?


2)Should we continue using the Federal Reserve (central bank) system opposed by the founding father's due to the debt attached to every dollar printed (among other reasons? Why?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 30, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
Fritz, scuse da spellun...;-) And yes its the DWARF form. you wiley wascal...
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2012 - 09:52am PT
Well, one thing Obama promised is that he'd raise our standing internationally. However, the Bush-Obama forigon policy's have done nothing but hurt us internationally and the end result is that we have to spend money on the military to get our way. Romney would be just as bad. Here's Iran below, but the news in the middle east, from Israel to Oman, is that we are an unreliable partner.

http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9107116184

Leader: Americans Enslaved to Zionist Regime

"TEHRAN (FNA)- Supreme Leader of the Islamic Revolution Ayatollah Seyed Ali Khamenei described the US administration as the most hated government in the world, saying that the White House has enslaved the American nation to Zionists.


Addressing a large crowd of Iranian students on Wednesday, the leader noted, "It is a great shame that the US presidential candidates compete with each other in their debates to show their devotion to the Zionists and have made their nation their slave."

Calling the US administration as the most hated one in the entire world, Ayatollah Khamenei reminded the US administration's allegation about war on terror, and said the White House has fallen so deep that "it has become an ally of MKO terrorist group, even renders support to the terrorist Monafeqin (hypocrites as usually referred in Iran) and removed it from its blacklist."

Pointing to the US claims on advocating human rights, the Leader said, "The most hostile anti-human rights measures are taken with the US support. The Zionists who have been violating the rights of the oppressed Palestinian nation for 60 year are fully supported by the US administration."

Ayatollah Khamenei also referred to the number of American prisoners in the country and said, "The high number of inmates in the US which has placed the country atop the world (in this regard) runs counter to the administration's allegations on supporting freedom of the people."

The US has been staunchly criticizing Iran's human rights conditions, while the country has been widely blamed for trampling upon minority rights." ................
blah blah etc etc

Studly

Trad climber
WA
Oct 31, 2012 - 10:11am PT
So what exactly is inaccurate about what he said Bill? Seems fairly represenative of whats going on, unless you are sppon fed on Faux News.
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Oct 31, 2012 - 11:52am PT
So the debt and the Fed's role in the economy hangs out there as a unresolved issue; I'll think I'll bring up jobs this Halloween. So lets looks at population growth; with growth still trucking along at 10%/decade or 1%/year:
photo not found
Missing photo ID#271281
So with population going up (driven by lax immigration policies)how are jobs doing:
photo not found
Missing photo ID#271282
Let's not forget the ruling class and their tax payer backed pensions:
photo not found
Missing photo ID#271283
To combine the three charts with get the Obama record on job creation:
photo not found
Missing photo ID#271284
And finally a lot of lip service is paid to education; so how is that liberal arts/art history degree panning out:
photo not found
Missing photo ID#271286

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 31, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
That's an interesting look on job creation and education.

Perhaps the Republicans shouldn't have blocked the bills put forth by Obama that would have helped job creation and students seeking an education.


Google "Republican Block Bills", you'll find the heart of the GOP right there...


Got a graph for that??


photo not found
Missing photo ID#271227
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
Basically, the Republican platform is:

Sure, we drove the economy over the cliff. But this guy hasn't fixed it fast enough, so give it back to us....trust us...
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 31, 2012 - 12:30pm PT
Kinda like obama promising he would cut the deficit in half...Cept he forgot to tell us FIRST he would triple it...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
Oct 16, 2012 - 10:11pm PT

"Ron, you really are a potato head."
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 31, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
those pesky truths....
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
Yes, it's far better to ignore them, and make up your own detached reality, isn't it?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Oct 31, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
Your average democrat?



I'll go with guy number one 11 out of 10 times.


Credit: survival






Guy number two.
Credit: survival
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 31, 2012 - 12:54pm PT
id go with Number 1 myself...cuz #2 AINT an average anything.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:08pm PT
K-man has hit the nail directly on the head with the fact that the GOP-led Congress blocked a lot of Obama's and Democrats' bills.

The Republicans were not acting bi-partisan, they were not acting for the average American nor the middle class families. They were acting to spite Obama and his administration, to spite the Democrats' attempts to fix the problems of the Bush administration, and they were acting to further the interest of the wealthy and corporations at the expense of the United States.

Even for those on this forum that do not like Obama, surely you can see that.


And if you can't see that reality, I guess you are going to vote for Zomney. May the heavens help America if MIttens gets elected.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
it WASNT ONLY the repub side of the coin that brought gridlocks... Two words,, harry reid-tard.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
Even for those on this forum that do not like Obama, surely you can see that.

Ummmm, hate to be the one to break it to you Patrick....
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
Ron there may be truth in that to some extent, but I would wager that most of the gridlock was the Republicans doing.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
Perhaps Patrick, however bushs tax reforms were followed by this admin even as he told us he would change them. He now tells us the same thing four years later. the "robinhood" story has fallen rather flat.
Ricky

climber
Sometimes LA
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:22pm PT

Ron accuses Democrats of partisan gridlock and cites renewal of the Bush tax cuts as an example.

And he won't understand the problem with that.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
K-man has hit the nail directly on the head with the fact that the GOP-led Congress blocked a lot of Obama's and Democrats' bills.
it WASNT ONLY the repub side of the coin that brought gridlocks... Two words,, harry reid-tard.

Bingo! Both houses passed legislation to their liking. Reid, in particular, never brought up the House's bills for a vote. That's why the Senate has not acted on a budget. The idea that the Democrats have been flexible and the Republicans rigid holds water only in Democratic pails.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
"Bullshit! The idea that the Republicans have been flexible and the Democrats rigid holds water only in Republican pails. "

Fixed that for you.

Your welcome.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
dang those bitter facts...look it up apogee,, reid-tard, harry, one each.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
1)Should Obama have not accounted for the expenditures accumulated under Bush for the Iraq war in our budget or debt?


2)Should we continue using the Federal Reserve (central bank) system opposed by the founding father's due to the debt attached to every dollar printed (among other reasons?

Mountainlion,

I didn't see your posts until today. I normally try not to post on any political thread except the Republicans are always wrong one, but since that thread has degenerated into little more than name-calling and uncritical thought, while this thread seems to have some real issues involved, I'm breaking that self-imposed rule.

Your first question assumes facts not in evidence. The idea that a president can unilaterally change fiscal policy has no Constitutional basis. Congress determines fiscal policy. Thus, charging Obama with raising the deficit assumes power he doesn't have. Of course, the only reason Republicans point out the massive rise of federal spending under Obama is that he campaigned on a premise that he would reduce that deficit.

That said, I think the rhetoric of your question raises a valid point. Obama inherited two wars, and (prudently, IMHO) did not try an immediate disengagement. I don't think it's fair to blame war expenditures on him alone.

Your second question, however, has to my mind a clear answer: "Yes." We tried being on the gold standard, and its inflexibility led to depression after depression. The American economy, with its use of debt, deflates poorly. Using debt for investment greatly increased our standard of living. Unfortunately, I can't say the same about debt used for consumption of non-durables. Nonetheless, until someone can show me a better alternative to the Fed, I think that we must continue to employ it as our primary tool of executing monetary policy.

John
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
John, Ron. Can you name one bill that the Republicans sponsored that would have helped the US middle class if passed?


I've got my phone set on Notify so I'll get your answer as soon as you post it...
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
Reid didn't bring House Bills to a Vote that He knew would get filibustered.

Who would do the filibustering, Dr. F?, The bills passed the Republican house, so the only likely filibusterers would be Democrats.

Sorry, but the narrative of you, apogee, and the rest of the Democrats on gridlock fails.

For the record, it was Boehner who attempted to negotiate a "grand bargain" with Obama. He failed because Obama refused to compromise when it mattered. Obama has yet to show any substantial ability to negotiate, much less compromise, on anything important.

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
Here you go, k-man:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/house-passes-jobs-bill-with-wide-bipartisan-margins/2012/03/08/gIQAEi6lzR_story.html

John
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
Both Dems and Repubs Reps SUCK! Each and everyone of em.

Boner, Reid, MacCarJackemoff, Pellosi, all of em fking crooks. None better than the other.

Professional Thieving Politicians the entire lot.

Just as the President, Reps should be limited to two terms only and their retirement bene's reduced to 1/10th of what they currently keep voting themselves.

Maybe then they may actually do what they are all voted into office to do, represent the people of the United States. Not themselves and the thieving lobbyist that buy them out.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:58pm PT
President Obama's $447 billion jobs bill failed to clear a procedural hurdle in the Democratic-controlled Senate Tuesday night despite a White House push that accelerated in the 11th hour.
The bill received 50 votes falling short of the necessary 60 to end debate. Sens. Ben Nelson of Nebraska and Jon Tester of Montana were the only Democrats to vote against the bill. Both of them are facing tough re-election campaigns next year.
Sen. Jim Webb, D-Va., had said earlier that although he intended to vote in favor of ending the Republican filibuster, he did not intend to support the bill if it reached a final vote.
Now that it has failed, both the House and Senate are expected to turn this week to approving U.S. trade agreements with Colombia, Panama and South Korea, one of the few areas of agreement between Republicans and the administration on boosting the economy. And Senate Democrats are looking at ways of breaking the jobs bill into pieces that would be easier to pass.
Obama declared earlier Tuesday that the U.S. Senate faced a “moment of truth” when it voted on the bill, calling it "gut check time." He later issued a statement accusing Republicans of obstruction.
"Tonight's vote is by no means the end of this fight," Obama said. "We will now work with Senator Reid to make sure that the individual proposals in this jobs bill get a vote as soon as possible."
The White House Office of Management and Budget had said before Tuesday's vote that bill would help put Americans back to work without adding a dime to the deficit. And the White House sent a letter from 16 Democratic governors urging congressional leaders to pass the bill.
The White House also began highlighting on its website Tuesday the stories of people who will be affected if Congress doesn't pass the jobs bill, White House spokesman Jay Carney said.
But at the same time, acknowledging reality, Obama said he was prepared to break it into pieces and try to pass job-creation legislation that way.
The plan combines payroll tax cuts for workers and businesses with $175 billion in spending on roads, school repairs and other infrastructure, as well as unemployment assistance and help to local governments to avoid layoffs of teachers, firefighters and police.
Republicans dismissed the president’s proposal as a stimulus plan like the one two years ago that they argue failed to turn the economy around.
"The legislation we’ll be voting on today is many things, but it’s not a jobs bill," Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, a Republican, said Tuesday. "And Republicans will gladly vote against any legislation that makes it harder to create jobs right now."
Supporters of the package disagree and suggest there will be a political price to pay for those who oppose it.
“If the voters think this is unfair for the minority party to just say we’re not going to support this president, no matter what he comes up with, if they believe that’s unfair, then they’ll make those feelings known to those members of Congress,” said Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill, the No.2 Democrat in the Senate.
The key elements of the jobs package reprise parts of Obama's $800 billion-plus 2009 stimulus measure and a Social Security payroll tax cut enacted last year. Unlike the deficit-financed stimulus bill, the jobs measure would be paid for by a 5.6 percent surcharge on income exceeding $1 million, expected to raise more than $450 billion over a decade.
In making the case for the bill, the White House cites economists such as Mark Zandi of Moody's Analytics, who predicts that the measure would add 2 percentage points of growth to the economy and add 1.9 million jobs. But Republicans point to optimistic predictions about the 2009 measure that did not come to pass; unemployment hovers just above 9 percent nationwide.
The president has been struggling in opinion polls, and passage of the measure has always been a long shot, given that Republicans control the House and can use delaying tactics in the Senate.
Obama also said that he was instructing his staff to move forward on job-creating initiatives without congressional approval where possible. The White House announced steps to speed environmental and other regulatory approvals for 14 public works projects across the country.
"We're not going to wait for Congress," Obama said.
While Republicans backed the payroll tax cut for individuals last year and support elements such as continued tax breaks for investments in business equipment, they're adamantly opposed to further spending and say the tax surcharge would strike at small businesses.
Fox News' Trish Turner, Mike Emanuel and The Associated Press contributed to this report.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/11/white-house-pushes-for-passage-job-bill-in-face-likely-senate-defeat/#ixzz2AttxennU
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
Oh, I forgot...


Both the Dems and Repubs are all Chickenhawks to the hilt.

Each and everyone of em has some lobbyist or another with their hand in their pants stroking em off.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
I know that these sort of political threads are really there for the OP to vent some steam. And then other posters to react in same, for the most part.

While there may be some swingers on the Taco Stand, I don't see any swing voters. Those of us that post I'd reckon for the most part are singing to the same choir as their beliefs and ideologies.

There has not been one post that would make me think otherwise about who I believe should be POTUS, nobody has convinced me that Romney is better than Obama. And I suspect that is vice versa, that those who do not like Obama are not going to be swayed by any Supertopians who don't like Romney.

We are all preaching to fellow 'believers' it seems. May the best man (for the USA) win.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
Politics is politics. Historically, somewhere in that process, the country is lead forward on one agenda or another.

There is an undeniable amount of fact & quotes to demonstrate that the ONLY agenda Republicans had after their 2008 spanking was to filibuster and block ANYTHING that was put in front of them, no matter how closely aligned it might be with their own priorities.

The PRIMARY goal of the Republicans has been to block EVERYTHING, and make Obama a one term president. That kind of cynical, anti-American agenda is an absolute abdication of their leadership responsibility, and is worthy of the termination of every single one of them.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
democrats blocked the jobs bill...
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
JE
you seem to have a comprehension problem, anytime you get cornered, all of sudden you can't understand

Reid is in the Senate, the Senate Republicans filibuster

Same to you! We Republicans (and independents who know Nevada politics like Ron), claim that Reid fails to bring bills passed by the Republican House up for a vote. Your response is that Reid won't bring up bills that will be filibustered.

Again, I ask, why would Senate Republicans filibuster bills passed by the Republican House?

Take your time in answering. I'm trhough waiting for my econometric runs, so my break time is over.

John
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:17pm PT
Tonight's vote is by no means the end of this fight," Obama said. "We will now work with Senator Reid to make sure that the individual proposals in this jobs bill get a vote as soon as possible.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/11/white-house-pushes-for-passage-job-bill-in-face-likely-senate-defeat/#ixzz2AtyrfWCG



edit: Doc,, as JE noted,, the other thread has degenerated into a festival of insulting. Why wouldnt we go elsewhere. Thus far this thread seems to be more "user friendly"..
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
"...independents who know Nevada politics like Ron"

Ron? 'Independent'?

Bwahahahahahahahhahahahaaaa11111!!169696911192
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
The polls say the Independents are going to Romney this year.

They've had enough of this sh#t too, just like everybody else.
Ricky

climber
Sometimes LA
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
For the record, it was Boehner who attempted to negotiate a "grand bargain" with Obama.

Yes, that does need to be in quotes. And I think Obama made him cry.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
Credit: Ron Anderson


Yes apogee im an Independent...

It ISNT that i think romney is right for the job, but rather i KNOW obama is wrong for it.

and i will vote dem in some local issues here, and would happily vote dem for president IF the candidate had performed well. Sadly, after researching the crap out of this election, i cant with any confidence trust in obama.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:39pm PT
Your an 'Independent' like I'm an 'Independent'.

Not even close.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
what does your voter card say?

The lack of being able to accept independents is telling of extreme partisanship.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
'researching the crap out of this election,'

Bah! You don't 'research' anything, Ron.

You simply read the whacknut links that your whacknut Repug cohorts send to you, then C&P them here.

Your voter ID card may say 'Independent', but you have your face deep in the GOP's kool-aid trough.


Edit: Take a guess as to what my voter ID card says.

(Good guess!)
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:51pm PT
Ive taken a look at romney- which is why i hold no hopes of changes soon, YET there is that outside chance that hes been listening in this election. Where obama seeks to take us looks like hell to me.

Just in the acts of extension of powers--

via the patriot act - and the absolute power of the govt to deny constitutional rights of CITIZENS should make one wonder. Held w/o due process for indefinite times.?? Really?

Which could be extended to such things as FORUMS, so me,, in bashing the admin could be considered a risky person, rounded up and never seen or heard from for any amount of time cool huh! ( DONT answer that lol!)
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
Doc, it was obama who made these leaps against the constitution. Rewarding that is insane. If WE speak up, eventually after enough "firings" maybe washington will realize the "gig" is up...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 03:01pm PT
Ron, there is a very strong chance that the economy is going to improve in the next 4 years, no matter who wins next week.

If/when that happens, if Rmoney is in office, I'm sure you'll fall right in line with the rest of the jackbooted Repugs saying 'Rmoney fixed it!'

If Obama is in office, there's no doubt in my mind that you'll say 'it's still sucks!'

(I think I'll bookmark this post for future reference.)
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 31, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
feel free apogee.. But no one has/can answer whats going to happen once the full affects of obama care come to be. that is one big IF as far as govt spending and or a deficit reduction or recovery. Then throw in the ME factor to all of this. I see a growing deficit and govt spending to the point we all might as well photo copy money for all the worth it will have.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 03:11pm PT
See what I'm talkin' about, Ron?

Your mind is already made up. It hasn't changed, it won't change. Ever.

That's not an 'Independent'. That's a Droid.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
Doc, it was obama who made these leaps against the constitution. Rewarding that is insane. If WE speak up, eventually after enough "firings" maybe washington will realize the "gig" is up...

True Ron. Romney hasn't spoken out against it, and is in lockstep with the "kill them all and let God sort them out including Americans citizens who think incorrectly" drone policy of Obama. The only alternative to a jackbooted Obama is Gary Johnson is it knott?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 31, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
apogee i arrived at this in nearly four years of consideration. Its not like it was a snap decision.

obama like all presidents has dome some good here and there. But then he creates debacles that make your head snap around. He talks of helping middle America yet creates policies that allow him to invade anyone he chooses at any time for any reason for any length of time. There are many videos of him talking about his views on the constitution and need for CHANGING it. Hes done just that. He took the patriot act to extremes unconstitutional. NO one is above the constitution.

Then theres his ME FARCES.


edit: Couch Yeah Johnson would be a good choice. CAMPAIGN REFORM IS CRITICAL!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 31, 2012 - 03:18pm PT
Here you go, k-man:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/house-passes-jobs-bill-with-wide-bipartisan-margins/2012/03/08/gIQAEi6lzR_story.html

John


Thanks John. In your link, I read:

House Republicans voted down an amendment to the package that would have required large publicly-traded companies to disclose how many of their employees are based in this country vs. overseas. In the final vote, 230 to 175, all but three Republicans opposed the amendment.

And ...


Although most House Democrats voted for the bill Thursday, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) — who also voted for it — called the proposal “so meager” and much less effective than transportation funding bills being weighed in the House and Senate.


Wow, that is quite an example of a bill that the GOP sponsored to help our middle class... (not)
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
Actually, it's a rather excellent example of the way the Democrats' leaders feel. Because the bill didn't contain all that Pelosi wanted, we are all to assume that the bill's help was meager? Who's being partisan here?

John
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 31, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
Pelosi and ried-tard could change sexes and be each other. I swear...


edit: apogee im afraid your a typical democrat. I on the other hand are searching for those that will actually accomplish something in the FIRST terms of their service. That needs to change-- damm the "junior" status- we elect them to BE THE position, not a junior s*ck boy/gal..And WHY vote a 2nd term if the first yielded results OPPOSITE of what were promised?? Deficit reduced or "cut in half" nope- tripled..Economy better? not in REALITY.
Better thought of globally ROFLMAO! Yeah,, they are diggin drones crossing over their neighbor hood every thirty minutes! Even Israel has no confidnece in obama getting results. He talks of succes in afghanistan and a dated pull out. Really? sooo THATS when all the al-kay-duhs will just magically dissapear eh..!? Yet another pipe dream. Packistan now holds the doctor that gave the intel for killing osama but wad in prison no due process and was hiding osama but wad. What have we done there really? nothing. Nadda zippo other than taking out a few alkyduhs that have been replaced before their bodies cooled. Egypt?? nooooo,, Syria -Turkey?? noooo not looking good there either... France,,, never.. England now scoffs,,Netherlands cant figure us out anymore.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 04:06pm PT
" i arrived at this in nearly four years of consideration."

What a load of Krap®.

I've been in these polititard threads longer than you have, Ron, and my memory of your posts is crystal-clear: from the start, all the way to today and into the future, you've railed on Obama & the Democratic agenda.

Don't know why I would bother to look, but every damn post I can find of yours (and that's a LOT) confirms this.

Don't give me that 'careful, thoughtful consideration' bullsh#t. It's bullsh#t.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 31, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
When obama first showed outta nowhere i was interested, then listened, saw, and heard. By the time he was elected i was HIGHLY skeptical due to his constitutional views. I didnt vote for him over that. Now roll forward four years and we have powers to HS that grant them to do anything to anyone they choose at any time for any reason for any length of time.. My state hit the bottom a while back and remained the countrys epicenter of un employment and foreclosures.




Credit: Ron Anderson


Stolen from the "other thread" ^^^^ Wonder who pays the bills there??
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 31, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
anastasia posts:

Wait a second here. First of all not "everyone" in "each party" is such a fanatic idiot.

I am a Democrat married to a Republican. We agree not to agree and... We actually do agree on a few things.

We are both...

Pro gun.
Believe in the right to choose when it comes to abortion.
Anti death penalty because it actually cost the state more to have folks in death row, (appeals, etc.)
We both hate Obama care. It does not regulate insurance companies and they are the one's making health care so outrageously expensive in the first place.
We both agree we need a better health system that provides to all, just not this one.
etc. etc.


In the end, we just want a better life and we are all Americans.


I'm very sad to say that your husband is no longer a Republican.

Oh, they're very glad to get his vote, and they don't care how he registers But he is not considered a "real American" by that crowd, anymore than you or I are, and he will NEVER NEVER be allowed to contribute to policy decisions.

He is pro-choice, which means they define him as a murderer (in philosophy, if not in fact), who should be subject to the same death penalty that you both oppose.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 31, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
Anastasia,, It isinterestng to me when a husband and wife are opposite parties as thats the way i was raised by may parents. Couples seem to have an ability to arrive at the same conclusions..;-)
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 31, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
Ron, serious question:

Does it not bother you that Mitt Romney is a serial, congenital, shameless liar?

I mean over and over and over. Even after called out by the press, he doubles down and continues to tell bald faced lies. The most recent, this week, about the auto companies got so outragelously ridiculous that the CEO of Chrysler stepped up and called bullsh#t. And that's one example of like a thousand.

Steve Benen has been tracking the lies of Mitt in the campaign, and the breadth is just stunning. They are on installment #34 of the series, and each installment typically has 5-15 examples from the week. You can read the latest one and then scroll to the bottom for links to the other 33:

http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2012/09/14/13865583-chronicling-mitts-mendacity-vol-xxxiv?lite

These are all sourced with heavily linked supporting documentation exposing the lies.


The guy has a serious psychological problem, he lies more than anyone I've ever been exposed to. It's f*#kin' creepy and sad, and a little infuriating. There was always one kid in grade school who just told whopper after whopper, "my dad played in the NFL and I've got a pet tiger at home"...that's who Mitt reminds me of.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
Left & Right, till death do them part
Left & Right, till death do them part
Credit: apogee
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 31, 2012 - 04:57pm PT
Yes it Does Cap.. Although many of those are "half truths" by fact check standards just like the stuff going around about obama.

Like i said,, both candidates have been bombarded with cyber opinion like never before in this election. I know what obama proposes and ive seen his actions in the ME. Dealing with the muslim brotherhood which is made up of many alkayduh factions is dealing with the two headed snake. Libya is now a two headed snake instead of a silent gardner snake. Iran continues on flipping the bird and being the center for the worlds terrorists. ANd the economy here at the bottom of the pit is still the bottom of the pit.

Will romney listen? probably not. Hey, theres always impeachment, a tool which in retrospect,, has OBVIOUSLY been under used. Will romney side with the rich? certainly- will that maybe prevent yet another cayman account? maybe.. Will he get the deficit at least flat lined?? obama wont..
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 31, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
No Ron, they are not "half truths". The most recent stuff about the auto industry got both the "Four Pinocchios" rating from the WaPost, as well as the "Pants on Fire" rating from Politifact...both the worst ratings they give. In other words, straight up bald faced lying. Yet Mitt doubles down and continues to run the ads, not caring in the slightest that he is lying to the country and specifically to the people of Ohio.

There is no world in which the ongoing, chronic, shamless, bald faced, LYING of Romney is even remotely comparable to anything coming out of the Obama campaign.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 31, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
Cap,, i see the same lying adds from obama as well. When i posted fact checks after the debates, they were fairly equal in fibs and distortions.. Im certainly not fooling myself into thinking either isnt a politcian.

In the end obama promised, and didnt deliver. Just like bush didnt his first term. Neither should have the job twice.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
Not even a close comparison, Ron.

Sure, both candidates stretch truths....but Rmoney has set a whole new low standard for the sheer number and audacity of them.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
I'm very sad to say that your husband is no longer a Republican.

Oh, they're very glad to get his vote, and they don't care how he registers But he is not considered a "real American" by that crowd, anymore than you or I are, and he will NEVER NEVER be allowed to contribute to policy decisions.

He is pro-choice, which means they define him as a murderer (in philosophy, if not in fact), who should be subject to the same death penalty that you both oppose.

If we accept your logic, Ken, neither is Anastasia a "real" Democrat. Believe it or not, there are still plenty of Republicans who think abortion should be legal, just as there are plenty of Democrats who don't think all Republicans fall back on guns and religion, or who cringe at the notion of "One nation under God." In fact, I rather suspect that a pro-choice Republican has more of a chance at being heard among Republicans than an anti-abortion Democrat does among Democrats. Heaven forbid if someone like Joe Lieberman wants to have a voice in the Democrats' policy or, in the last election, in their party at all.

In truth, though, it's the people in the middle who are becoming increasingly marginalized in both parties. Here in Fresno, the environmental left ran a series of ads against a local Democratic congressman whose voting wasn't pure enough for their line. Nationally, Blue Dog Democrats have become an endangered species within the Democratic party, just as moderate Republicans are subject to Tea Party attack as RINO's.

Here in California, the Republicans defined themselves so far to the right of the center that they've made themselves largely irrelevant. Unfortunately, that allowed the Democrats to entrench themselves in the legislature in a way that they were unaccountable to anyone but other Democrats, and have moved just as far to the left of center. Currently, no one speaks for the center.

John
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 31, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
interesting take on demographics JE...It speaks to NV as well me thinks..
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 05:23pm PT
Not even a close comparison, Ron.

Sure, both candidates stretch truths....but Rmoney [sic] has set a whole new low standard for the sheer number and audacity of them.

I'm sorry to read this, apogee, because it reflects, to me, an adherence to partisanship that has come to define contemporary American politics. Perhaps it's just a product of modern journalism that's confused advocacy with accuracy and "investigative reporting" for objectivity. I fear that most people don't even recognize the biases in their information sources any more. As a result, anything that views the world differently becomes a "lie."

I find much of what the supporters of both candidates say to be a lot of half-truths, but it could be worse. The ads for and against the various ballot propositions here in California contain not only half-truths, but quite a few truth-and-a-halfs.

The idea that people feel competent to decide complex issues by 15-second sound bites should alarm anyone interested in rational policies, but that is the current reality. Until some form of journalism committed to objectivity and accuracy becomes so compelling that it commands an overwhelming audience, I see little prospect for improvement.

John
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 31, 2012 - 06:12pm PT
Whatever anybody does, please do not quote Faux News. Come on, even the dog in the street knows the bias this Murdoch-shite channel brings to the party.

For those that want to quote Faux News, there must be more objective media outlets that can reflect your views.

Obama, as McCain would have had he won, inherited a very poison chalice. You just cannot turn around eight years of mismanagement in four years.

Personally, I think two things need to be done. Firstly, get rid of the Electoral College, it's archaic, let the majority vote of the people be the one that decides.

Secondly, let's change the Constitution where the office of POTUS is a one-term six-year office. Too many time have presidents, of any party, used the fourth year of their first office term to campaign. Sometimes to the detriment of the country.

It will take a while to rid the stench of the Dubya/Cheney/Rumsfeld years, if Obama can keep trying, okay. If Romney thinks he has the answers, and he gets elected, lets hope, for the better of the nation, that he has the answers. But somehow, I do not think he does.

Lies, damn lies and statistics. Stats can be used in both arguments, for and against.

I am amused that people think that Obama is a liar, perhaps he is, after all, he is a politician. But Mittens is even a bigger liar. And while politics is a dirty business, the Republicans, to their credit/discredit, have almost perfected the dirty, mud-slinging spin. Touché, on their part.

I certainly feel safer in the past four years than I did in the Bush Jr. years. Financially? Everybody has taken a hit (bar the big boys, politicians and uber wealthy).

Unfortunately, I believe Sandy will benefit Romney, as many of those hardest hit would probably have voted for Obama in the election. I hope that I am wrong and these voters will turn out on election day, despite the misery the super-storm has imposed upon them.

Perhaps it does not matter to some of you, but because the US and its policies affect much of the world, most Irish people (and non-Irish) I have met and talked with, want Obama to win. And it is not the circles I am running in, though I often run circles around myself. ;-).

They are genuinely afraid that Mittens will continue Dubya's administration's policies. To the detriment of both the US and the world. That is my take on it.

At this point in time I believe continuity is important. Obama hasn't done super great, but he hasn't done a bad job so far, collectively.

To all of you Supertopians, vote the way your heart/conscious/mind feels is right. Just vote. I have been to the US embassy and cast my vote.

Whoever wins the next POTUS election, let's hope they do the utmost to help out our country. We need it. The world needs it.

I just hope that those of you who vote against Obama do not do it because of his ethnic background, that you are not "birthers" (ridiculous). Remember the State of Deseret. I don't want that, not that it would remotely happen. But the mindset of it that carries forth to this day is not desirable in my eyes.

Heck what next, a Scientologist being elected prez? Tom or John, step forward.

Okay, perhaps I went a bit over the top on that last statement. In a 'joustful' manner. But no more than those who claim that Obama is a Kenyan. For heaven's sake, get your head out of the toilet and stick it in a pot of strong coffee.

EDIT

And JE, a hypothetical (very) question? Which of the two, Obama and Romney, would stand up against Turkish aggression agains the Armenians? Interesting, no? What does it have to do with the 2012 election? Perhaps, special interests would run the day, or rue it.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Oct 31, 2012 - 06:13pm PT
Credit: survival
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 31, 2012 - 06:29pm PT


http://www.pe.com/local-news/riverside-county/temecula/temecula-headlines-index/20121030-temecula-man-67-jailed-over-damaged-political-signs.ece

Crowley?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
"...because it reflects, to me, an adherence to partisanship that has come to define contemporary American politics."

John, I would be very sorry to think that you find that Rmoney's complete disregard for facts, and willingness to take 180 degree turns on virtually every one of his positions, is anything similar to his opponent, or any of his Party's preceding candidates. I understand and respect your political positions, but to not be able to see this speaks loudly to your own adherence to partisanship.


Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 31, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
If we accept your logic, Ken, neither is Anastasia a "real" Democrat. Believe it or not, there are still plenty of Republicans who think abortion should be legal, just as there are plenty of Democrats who don't think all Republicans fall back on guns and religion, or who cringe at the notion of "One nation under God."

John, I gather that you haven't really looked at the respective parties, lately.

You will find that the democrats WILL accept people with divergent views, because they are.....liberal! They also do not define those who have divergent views as being "not real Americans".

There ARE plenty of self-described Repubs who are pro-choice, but they will NEVER, NEVER be allowed to represent the party.

And I think that is unfortunate
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 31, 2012 - 07:51pm PT
There ARE plenty of self-described Repubs who are pro-choice, but they will NEVER, NEVER be allowed to represent the party.

This may not sit well with some, but Fattrad was actually a neo-conservative/neo-liberal/and nice guy. It's a shame that he is no longer allowed to contribute, but while being a troll at times, he did bring some insights. And while he was repetitive (to say the least) he was not so far right as some Taco Standers. Hmm, I'd love to say names but that would not be positive.

Okay, all of his name-dropping and "I was a tough reserve deputy" BS was a bit wearisome, but Jeff (Fattrad) is a Republican who had some liberal views, on some things mind you.

I think that the key to a healthy society and democracy is that we take the (moderate) views of all sides and see how we can 'mesh' them together, in a compromise.

There are some rabid right wingers on the Taco Stand (you know who you are) and some stringent lefters (but really, not that many, IMO, most liberals on this forum are far more open minded than the right-twits, but I would write that, wouldn't I).

Chill out. If you really love America, open your minds.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 31, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
Actually, it's a rather excellent example of the way the Democrats' leaders feel. Because the bill didn't contain all that Pelosi wanted, we are all to assume that the bill's help was meager? Who's being partisan here?


John, I'm not being partisan and we are not "all to assume." I merely quoted the article you referenced.


And, since you say the bill aimed to help the middle class, why this:

House Republicans voted down an amendment to the package that would have required large publicly-traded companies to disclose how many of their employees are based in this country vs. overseas. In the final vote, 230 to 175, all but three Republicans opposed the amendment.

Rep. Gary Peters (D-Mich.) introduced the amendment to shed more light, he said, on how many American jobs are being outsourced, as many multinational companies do not reveal where their employees are based. Yet data show that multinationals as a group reduced their domestic head counts by 2.9 million while adding 2.4 million jobs in other countries between 2000 and 2009.

I think the Republicans want to hide how much they are moving jobs overseas. Not a real help to the middle class, eh?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 31, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
There is no way to generalize the Democratic Party anymore. Half of Democrats are ex-Republicans who wandered into the party after Limbaugh and his wanna-be's hijacked the Conservative Message.

So if you look at Democrats as a group, it is wildly diverse. Imagine the Zombie Apocalypse where the new Conservatives are the Zombies, and the Democrats are everyone left over.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 31, 2012 - 08:29pm PT
or the other way around but the only ones left are independents??
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 31, 2012 - 08:38pm PT
You see, that is what is nice about this thread,, it lacks the above^^^^. Im supporting the non lib side due to the man and his actions not words, not party affiliations, just his acts. I dont post the bazillion slams against dems i could in reply. As many other have done here. You have to admit it was refreshing to a degree.?



and Fatty, if you read this, Thanks for the guide.;-)
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 07:16am PT
And Ron, what are his (Obama's) actions? Could you have cleaned up the mess better? Could McCain? And you really think that Romney is the key?

In some (perverse?) way, I'd like to see Romney win, just so I can say four years from now after he has screwed things up further, "Ron, I told you so, nah nah nah nah na".

But that would be childish of me.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 1, 2012 - 12:38pm PT
Patrick,, obama has already proven he wont keep his promises. But he did manage to further destroy the constitution in his policies..
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 1, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/post/libya-storyline-still-crumbling/2012/11/01/ec0b305c-2419-11e2-9313-3c7f59038d93_blog.html



Obamas "stories" are crumbling down on Libya..
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 1, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
Ron, yer straw man is burning.

Credit: survival
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 1, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
along with the ME??

And the budget??


and our rights ??


edit: Doc this is 2012... Bush and Mccain arent even an issue NOW.

The ISSUE IS that obmama looks atcs and lies just LIKE bush..
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 1, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/21/AR2009052103680.html



http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/09/bush-obama-war-on-terror/



sure seems like he follows bushs tactics..
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
Ron, destroying the Constitution?

Your man, the idiot Bush, and his administration did far more harm to the United States Constitution than Obama has to date. Far more.

Ron, I am not into name calling or flaming, but if you think otherwise about my above statement, than I seriously have to think about your mental state.

Okay, you are NUTS.

Now, little boy, go get your toy soldiers and play war, and give us sane, adult and reasonable people some peace for a couple of days.


Otherwise, we'll have to call the Waaaambulance for you.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 1, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
You better do some research Patrick....Take a LOOK at where obama has taken the patriot act...Bush invented it obama gave it fangs..
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 1, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
It has little to do with Obama and everything to do with the structure of the balance of power in our government which was explicitly designed to constrain executive power. The executive seeks power and carte blanche and seldom gives back any it is extended regardless of the party of the president in office.

This has become an a real issue since the abuses of the Nixon administration. Most of today's elder republicans served under the Nixon and Reagan administrations and have always felt those presidents exercised legitimate executive power in their actions. As a result they have been on a forty year campaign to expand executive power which culminated in the appointment of Roberts and Alito to the SCOTUS. Both men were and are activist supporters and advocates for the expansion of executive power - it's why they sit on the bench and why Roberts runs the court.

If you don't like what you perceive to be abuses of executive power then the only place you can lay the blame is on conservatives who still believe Nixon got a raw deal and think Reagan and Bush Sr's covert actions where legitimate exercises of executive power. I personally lay a lot of the blame on Ford - Reagan, Bush Sr, and W wouldn't have conducted themselves the way they did if Ford (and then Reagan, and W) hadn't pardoned folks for continuing abuses of executive power.

In short, the reason behind Obama continuing W's abuses lie more with the office than with the man and is another chapter in a four decade case study on the consequences of the unpunished abuse of executive power. And ensuring there is never another Nixon 'persecution' for a president simply 'doing his job' is the whole point of this enduring republican campaign for defending and enabling abuses of executive power at every turn.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
Research?

What, you call research Faux News?

Ronnie Boy, methinks the desert heat has fried your brains.

I do not know why I even bother responding to a moron. I have tried to keep my level of conversation at a decent rationale. But I am beginning to really believe that you are a bigot. A black man as POTUS?

"Yes, dear Ronnie," says Mom. "Times have changed."

Forget the stats, as they can tell two different stories. Look at the FACTS.

I truly feel sorry for you Ron. Sincerely, I do, like many people you are under a cloud of misinformation.

People like you sadden me. I expect ignorance from certain quarters, but you usually come across as intelligent. Perhaps I should rethink that aspect of you.


Now boy, grab your gun and protect your goolies. Cause those nasty Obamamites and Democrat vampires are coming for you. Wooo Wooo.


EDIT

IMO, people like you will be the cause of the downfall of the United States. polarization, spreading lies and misinformation, neighbor against neighbor, hatred, spewing useless site. I would like to say that I hope you are happy with life, but you come across as a bitter person.

Hey, go out and climb some desert formations, take that mind of yours off of politics. It might do you some good.

;-) Smiles, all smiles. Best wishes Ron and cheers.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
Patrick,,, my MOM isnt alive...And you should most definitely think of NOT putting HER in you bs.

as for your other comments,,pffffff.....YOU are a typical democrat.....
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
Ron, my mom died January 5, 2007.

But thank the heavens she was a good West Virginian liberal Mountaineer.

Still, if you can find the time to get your head out of the toilet and into a fresh jug of coffee, not decaf, then you might wake up.


and Ron, I wasn't putting your mother into the conversation, you twit, it was a "metaphor" so to speak. Oh excuse me, too big of word, let's see now...


...hmmm, I am just wondering how to talk to an ignoramus in simple words.


See the cat...CAT, can you say that?

See the dog... woof woof, can you say that? Woof Woof.

See Mitt and Paul run? Aren't they having fun?

Can you spell Mitt? Can you spell Sh*t? Mitt and Sh*t rhyme. Isn't this fun now children. Now turn to page two in your books.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:07pm PT
H,, obama didnt just continue bush acts,, he enlarged them like never before seen. Your post is interesting and factual though-- They plan and fight that issue as much as campaign and tort reforms...
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
Credit: Hawkeye

this was about average democrats wast it?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:11pm PT
Gosh Hawkeye, a self-portrait of you.

But you couldn't have taken the photo, unless...

...Nahhhh


I am having fun with you guys. Do I pay you or you pay me?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
Just an average Democrat doing his job.

Credit: survival
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:18pm PT
Yes, he has, and while a disappointment, it's a good object lesson on tendencies of the executive branch and why the founders struggled to come up with a system which would constrain those tendencies. Your party is utterly dedicated to preserving and expanding abuses of the executive's Constitutional powers and allowing / encouraging it to abridge and skirt both the Constitution the Bill of Rights at every turn it can and now has a Supreme Court to allow it.

The 9/11 attacks were unfortunate triggers allowing the neocon republicans to launch two preemptive wars and the broad expansion of executive power necessary to enable their 'new american century'. It took OBL and the Neocons together to bring the nation to a new low and Obama's failure to bring the W administration up on treason charges simply defers justice yet again and encourages more of the same by future generations just as the Ford pardon did.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
Yeahhh,, there will be a bazillion photo ops of beach bound obama. While his campaign staff celebrates the most timely hurricane diversion ever.


edit: H, im an independent...

This very topic is one of the main reasons why. that and i want a total campaign reform.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
yup survival, it was a great political move....

you can hear the phone call now right?

BO: well chris, you kiss my a$$ and i might get you some help, how does that sound?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
From Lethal Weapon 2

Consulate Envoy: Sir, listen to your friend, here. He knows what he’s talking about. I don’t think you want to go to South Africa.
Roger Murtaugh: Why not?
Consulate Envoy: B-Because you’re black.

From Blazing Saddles

Howard Johnson: [reading] As honorary chairman of the welcoming committee, it's my privilege to present a laurel and hearty handshake to our new...
[looks up and sees Bart]

Howard Johnson: ...nigger.


Ron and Hawkeye, those white sheets you wear, they must get awfully dirty, have you tried bleach?

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
Is it beer-thirty there now? Jess wonderin..
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
Hey Ron and Hawkeye

The three of us are sanctimonious. I can play 'geetar' and harmonica, and I am learning the piano, perhaps the three of us can get together as the "Sanctimonians". And I am a trained tenor (no fiver jokes please).

I do not mind playing music with close-minded people, it may help you to let go of your anal retentiveness. Music can do that.


EDIT

A long hard day, and now I am turning on fellow Supertopians (though they do not know what they think). I could go kick the cat, but I have never resorted to such a low blow.

I tell you what right-wingers (Ron, Hawkeye, Blue tooth, um Bluering, Couchmaster - that says a lot, couch potato, I read, and other anti-Amercian lovers of your ilk) go ahead and make crude dolls (and jokes) of me and stick the needles in. Just make sure that you stick needles in my left shoulder and lower back... and left hamstring, and... (too many injuries to add). Ahhh, acupuncture. Thanks guys, I feel better already.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
the good music is created by a mutual flow, by all partys involved. They ALL feel and see the same flow and rythm. Call me crazy, but ive been in enough bands to know when to say,, "ill get back to ya on that"..Besides, im lookin for someone that can sing Robert plant to Bon Scott!
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
Ron, I can sing that. What's the lyrics? And what key? D or E?


I love jousting with you guys. Just keep your visors down when I come a charging.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
BO: well chris, you kiss my a$$ and i might get you some help, how does that sound?


"Sounds perfect boss! I'll finger your love eye while I go down!"


Credit: survival

Don't forget wrongeye, he WAS the keynote speaker at your convention!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
scenario 2014:

You work for a smaller company- 20 employees total. The heatlh care costs for that company will be greater that the penalties paid per year for each employee NOT covered. So, the company naturally chooses to toss their employee coverage as its better that tossing the employees themselves.

Now those employees, since they are making 30 to 40 k a year will have to search out their own coverage at their own costs. They may or may not qualify for a voucher but even if they do it will be for a small percentage of their actual costs due to the money they make. And they will be paying wahtever premiums charged.. obmamcare,,,not the solution..

edit: and of course this isnt even a trend that can be calculated as to how many compoanys will do so, thus the percentage of vouchers going out cant be accurately guessed at this time.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:10pm PT
Already discussed to death Rong.

The employee knows the employer is now saving money at their expense. If he doesn't make an adjustment to salary or other benefit, they have the free market to find another employer.

In other words, the employee-employer market will make an adjustment back to an equilibrium. Of course this is way over your pay-grade.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
free market to find another job??? What jobs??

minimum wage wont pay rent on a large doghouse.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:13pm PT
In case you missed it Rong:

In other words, the employee-employer market will make an adjustment back to an equilibrium. Of course this is way over your pay-grade.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
nooo what will happen is a few million MORE will enter the govt voucher system all but crippling doctors, hospitals and the govt debt. Meanwhile joe average will still be paying out the kazzoo if he wants any coverage at all.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
Already discussed to death. You seem to be not very well informed.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
Credit: nature
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
How many Electoral Votes are needed for the Presidency?
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
nooo what will happen is a few million MORE will enter the govt voucher system all but crippling doctors, hospitals and the govt debt. Meanwhile joe average will still be paying out the kazzoo if he wants any coverage at all.

There is not one person in Canada that works for a company that doesnt supply health care, just doesnt happen. A company like that just wouldnt survive, the folks that make it successful go somewhere else.

from my point of view these arguments you guys have are CRAZY as sh#t...you dont want health care...makes absolutely no sense???
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:40pm PT
hoser,,, this ISNT Canada we speak of.. Here MOST employers have the choice. They can choose the penalties or the coverage..
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
I feel sorry for you guys, no health care is such a hard concept to understand. I cant even imagine not being able to walk into any medical establishment and not get immediate coverage for free, crazy stuff.

Blows my mind
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:52pm PT
It is very different for a Canadian company or organization to provide health care, than for a US equivalent. What's usually provided in Canada is that the employer pays half the employee's medical services premium (+ for the employee's family), which is probably less than $100/month. In addition, the company offers extended insurance - disability, some dental, some optical, possibly something toward prescriptions, perhaps peripheral services (physiotherapy, etc), and some bells and whistles if you're in hospital. Again, usually employer and employee pay half each.

In the US, employer and employee share between them the full cost of whatever insurance is provided, usually totalling in the hundreds of dollars a month.
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:57pm PT
Thanks, ya I would be surprised if I was paying 50$ a month though, but maybe if you include dental and physio and stuff. Surprising there is anyone who wouldnt want that.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
Ron, the tide is going against you buddy, swim hard.

But then, if Mittens gets elected, you will not have to swim hard. You will be drowning. Lap it up, so to speak. Your lungs will be filled with derision, your mind in a swirl of a whirlpool, your body sucked down in the abyss.


Hrr, just gives me the creeps to think of those things.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
Norton, regarding the Electoral College, our forefathers thought, at the time, it was a good thing. I suppose so.

But it has outlived its usefulness, if it ever had one.

Democracy. Doesn't that mean that everybody who votes should have a say. So if A gets the popular vote and B gets the Electoral College vote...

... B wins. So much for the popular vote. So much for Democracy.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 1, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
i'm sick and tired of OBAMA pissing on the constitution.

ur average democrat thinks he's done great for this country.

mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Nov 1, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
Hawkeye you strike me as someone who has been looking up at average his entire life and wondering how he will ever improve enough to become average.

If I am wrong how about you post up what you have excelled at...crickets...crickets...crickets
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 1, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
Oh, I think your "average Democrat" is feeling pretty damn good right now

their guy is going to win in an Electoral landslide, well over 300 votes

almost as much as the black guy beat McCain and Caribou Barbie in 08

And Romney will disappear from the national scene after next week, and get on with all the important decisions of his private life, like installing car elevators in his mansions

And the Republican party will once again wonder why they lost so bad

and decide it was because they did not go conservative enough

because they just don't get it
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 1, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
Pyro: i'm sick and tired of OBAMA pissing on the constitution.

Funny, a google 'site:supertop.com pyro constitution 200X' search didn't turn up any complaints from you about W pissing on the constitution from 2003 to 2008 - how is that possible?
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Nov 1, 2012 - 09:12pm PT
Dear Red States:

We're ticked off at your Neanderthal attitudes and politics and we've decided we're leaving.

We in New York intend to form our own country and we're taking the other Blue States with us.

In case you aren't aware that includes California, Hawaii, Oregon, Washington, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois and the rest of the Northeast.

We believe this split will be beneficial to the nation and especially to the people of the new country of The Enlightened States of America (E.S.A).

To sum up briefly:
You get Texas, Oklahoma and all the slave states.

We get stem cell research and the best beaches.

We get Andrew Cuomo and Elizabeth Warren. You get Bobby Jindal and Todd Akin.

We get the Statue of Liberty. You get OpryLand.

We get Intel and Microsoft. You get WorldCom.

We get Harvard. You get Ol' Miss.

We get 85 percent of America's venture capital and entrepreneurs.

You get Alabama.

We get two-thirds of the tax revenue. You get to make the red states pay their fair share.

Since our aggregate divorce rate is 22 percent lower than the Christian Coalition's, we get a bunch of happy families. You get a bunch of single moms.

With the Blue States in hand we will have firm control of 80% of the country's fresh water, more than 90% of the pineapple and lettuce, 92% of the nation's fresh fruit, 95% of America's quality wines (you can serve French wines at state dinners) 90% of all cheese, 90 percent of the high tech industry, most of the US low sulfur coal, all living redwoods, sequoias and condors, all the Ivy and Seven Sister schools plus Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Cal Tech and MIT.

With the Red States you will have to cope with 88% of all obese Americans and their projected health care costs, 92% of all US mosquitoes, nearly 100% of the tornadoes, 90% of the hurricanes, 99% of all Southern Baptists, virtually 100% of all televangelists, Rush Limbaugh, Bob Jones University, Clemson and the University of Georgia.

We get Hollywood and Yosemite, thank you.

38% of those in the Red states believe Jonah was actually swallowed by a whale, 62% believe life is sacred unless we're discussing the death penalty or gun laws, 44% say that evolution is only a theory, 53% that Saddam was involved in 9/11 and 61% of you crazy bastards believe you are people with higher morals then we lefties.

We're taking the good weed too. You can have that crap they grow in Mexico.

Sincerely,

Citizen of the Enlightened States of America




Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 2, 2012 - 06:00am PT
Dee ee, I don't think that I can add to your post. Brilliant.

But as Dr F wrote, the knuckle draggers just don't get it.

As much as I love my country, sometimes I think it might be a good idea to split it like you suggest.

Let the red-neck pansies have their lands, us open-minded people will have ours and live a better life than the Reds, who will be wallowing in the gutter.



EDIT

Pyro, so Obama has pissed on the Constitution, so say you. Could you give us some examples, and by the way, perhaps you can open your mind enough to also give examples where Dubya and his gang pissed on the Constitution. Oh, I forgot, you are blinkered.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 2, 2012 - 09:36am PT
Pyro said:
"i'm sick and tired of OBAMA pissing on the constitution."
To which Patrick replied:
Pyro, so Obama has pissed on the Constitution, so say you. Could you give us some examples, and by the way, perhaps you can open your mind enough to also give examples where Dubya and his gang pissed on the Constitution. Oh, I forgot, you are blinkered.
Read upthread Patrick, or just start here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/30/awlaki-killed-american-cl_n_988929.html Do you feel that teh murder of US Citizens without due process because of thought crime is acceptable? How about their kids sitting in the car next to them. Their death was no accident.

Anyone have the feeling that Romeny, with a belief in Jesus, will not be murdering American Citizens for thought crime? I don't. He's already said he supports and will continue the drone war that Obama has expanded and ramped up. Can you show where Congress, who are suppose to be the ones approving or disproving wars, has approved that action Patrick?


● Obama violated the Constitution with his “recess appointments” while the Senate was not in recess. It is up the Senate to decide when it is in recess, not the president. That distinction between executive and legislative authority is what the Separation of Powers doctrine is all about.

● Obama is an obvious participant and co-conspirator in Eric Holder’s approval and later cover-up of the illegal “Fast and Furious” gun-walking program. Unlike the Watergate case, people have actually died as a result of this illegal program.

● Obama undoubtedly has knowledge of and has approved Homeland Security Secretary Napolitano’s project to require Border Patrol management to falsify apprehension numbers on the southwest border. This is a clear violation of Article IV, Section 4 of the Constitution, which requires the federal government to protect the country against foreign invasion.

● The president’s open refusal to enforce the Defense of Marriage Act is a violation of Article III, Section 1 of the Constitution, which does not authorize the president to choose which laws to “faithfully execute.” The oath taken by a new president on Inauguration Day does not say, “… to defend the Constitution of the United States… to the best of my ability except when I disagree with it.”

● Obama’s HHS violated the First Amendment by requiring employers to cover contraceptives, abortifacients and sterilization in the health insurance they provide their employees, despite their religious and moral objections. He later shifted the mandate to the insurance companies, requiring all plans to cover such services, thinking Americans would not understand that the mandate still requires faith-based groups to subsidize services to which they have sincere religious and moral objections.

● The Obama administration violated the First Amendment when it refused a grant to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops for helping victims of human trafficking obtain food, clothing and access to medical care because of the Conference’s pro-life position. In fact, the Conference was refused the grant despite having received higher scores of effectiveness than the grant’s recipients.

● Obama told the Department of Justice not to defend the Defense of Marriage Act, which was passed by a bipartisan Congress. Instead, the DOJ argued against the valid law (which has been upheld by multiple courts), forcing the House of Representatives to hire outside counsel to defend the law. This gross abrogation of a president’s constitutional duty to defend and protect the laws of the land was unprecedented.

● Obama signed Dodd-Frank into law, which allows the government’s seizure of property, violating the Due Process Clause of the Constitution and creating administrative positions that are not vetted by the Senate as required by the Appointments Clause.

● When the Democrat-led Congress would not pass net neutrality, Obama’s Federal Communications Commission violated the Constitution by contravening Congress to restrict the freedom of Internet service providers to manage their network transmissions.

● When the Democrat-led Congress could not pass cap and trade, Obama’s EPA decided to auction greenhouse gas allowances, essentially imposing a tax on emissions, which, according to the Constitution, can only be done by Congress. You will also recall Congress having to act to halt the EPA’s ban on incandescent light bulbs.

● When the Democrat-led Congress did not pass the Employee Free Choice Act, Obama contravened Congress by pushing the NLRB to pass regulations that allowed for “ambush elections” and required employers to provide employee e-mail addresses and phone numbers to union organizers.

● When the Democrat-led Congress refused to pass the Dream Act, the Obama White House and DHS decided to implement a policy of granting illegal aliens stays of refusal, which is essentially amnesty by fiat. The Obama policy even gives local immigration officials the authority to dismiss deportation cases against illegal alien criminals convicted of violent crimes.

● Without the approval of Congress, as required by the Constitution, Obama ordered the U.S. military to attack Libya.

Before anyone gets their panties in a twist with the "YEAH BUT WHAT ABOUT BUSH"...riff: I agree, but note that Bush ain't President now and has no chance of being one. Check it out.

dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Nov 2, 2012 - 10:20am PT
It was not set up as a Democracy.
It was set up to be a Federal Republic. I know we have not been taught this, but it is the case. If people keep wanting to change the Constitution just come out and say it.
We should start a thread here about the Constitution and I bet we would "all" found out how ignorant we are as to what is really in it.

Has anybody posting here studied the Constitution. We seam to leave it up to Scholars and Politicians to do it for us, perhaps we should all require ourselves to do it instead of expecting someone else to tell us what is in it. Speaking for myself here as well.

The United States government is a federal republic set up by a Constitution adopted in 1787 by a Constitutional Convention; The federal government consists of three branches--executive, legislative, and judicial--which operate according to a system of checks and balances against each other and checks on their power set forth in the Constitution to protect the individual


Article IV, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution states:

“The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government”
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 10:53am PT
Doc libya IS obamas fast and furious..
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 2, 2012 - 11:09am PT
Wait Rong, I thought you said "Fast & Furious" WAS Obama's "Fast & Furious".

But then I suppose even you realized that was a lameass Bush job.

So eventually you may find that your Benghazigate BS in wrong and you are a hypocrite.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 11:25am PT
He ducked out of the first Philo, because they were quick enough to seal records. Libya,, they blew,, and blew big.

Where is that transparency obama promised us?? There has been NO transparency regarding fast and furious, nor libya, nor the health care debates.. No transparency at all...

he PROMISED to cut the deficit in half, and here we are a a tripled level.

Yet another promise failed.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 2, 2012 - 11:29am PT
Rong again Rong. The 2009 budget was proposed and signed by Bush. It went into effect 4 months before Obama took office.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 11:31am PT
not wrong.. HE PROMISED in 2008 he would CUT THE DEFICIT in half.. It is now tripled... He had the same 4 trillion from bush in 2008. There was no surprise there. And he still went on and PROMISED to cut the defecit in half, It is NOW tripled.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 2, 2012 - 11:32am PT


It's like admitting to everybody you can't do basic math
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 11:39am PT
or its like admitting to everyone you believe JUNK!


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33348615/ns/politics-more_politics/t/federal-deficit-triples-year-ago/#.UJPo3W-_DLo


or~~~


Home • The FactCheck Wire • Obama’s Deficit Dodge
Obama’s Deficit Dodge
Posted on September 28, 2012

President Obama is falsely claiming that his administration’s policies are responsible for “about 10 percent” of the deficits “over the last four years.” The cumulative deficit during that time is nearly $5.2 trillion. Obama signed two bills — the 2009 stimulus and the 2010 tax cut — that alone cost $1.6 trillion during that time, or nearly a third of the cumulative four-year deficit.

How could he have been so wrong? Although he said “the last four years,” the administration tells us that he was referring to a Treasury analysis of a 10-year period from 2002 to 2011 — which includes all eight years of the Bush administration and excludes the 2012 fiscal year, which ends Sept. 30 with a $1.17 trillion deficit.

We’re also told that Obama meant 12 percent, not 10 percent, and that 12 percent figure does not represent a percentage of cumulative deficits ($6 trillion) during those 10 years. It’s 12 percent of $11.9 trillion — which is the difference between the Congressional Budget Office’s rosy 10-year budget projection issued in January 2001 ($5.9 trillion in cumulative surpluses from 2002 to 2011) and what actually happened ($6 trillion in deficits).

The Treasury Department analysis claims that Obama’s polices are responsible for 12 percent of “the changes in deficit projections since January 2001,” but even that figure is too low, as we will explain later.

Obama on Deficits

The federal government will end fiscal year 2012 in a few days (Sept. 30) with a $1.2 trillion deficit — marking the fourth consecutive year of trillion-plus deficits. In a recent “60 Minutes” interview, CBS’ Steve Kroft asked Obama about the sharp increase in the federal debt since he has become president.

Obama, Sept. 23: First of all, Steve, I think it’s important to understand the context here. When I came into office, I inherited the biggest deficit in our history. And over the last four years, the deficit has gone up, but 90 percent of that is as a consequence of two wars that weren’t paid for, as a consequence of tax cuts that weren’t paid for, a prescription drug plan that was not paid for, and then the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. Now we took some emergency actions, but that accounts for about 10 percent of this increase in the deficit . . .

Obama stated it differently in a speech two days earlier to the AARP.

Obama, Sept. 21: I think it’s important for folks to know that 90 percent of the debt and deficits that we’re seeing right now are the result of choices that were made over the course of the last decade — two wars that weren’t paid for; tax cuts skewed towards the wealthy that were not paid for. So we made some decisions, and then when the Great Recession hit, that meant more money was going out and not as much money was coming in, and that has blown up our deficit and our debt.

Obama’s response leaves the false impression that President George W. Bush and the 2008 recession are responsible for a whopping 90 percent of the deficits in the last four years.

It’s true that Obama “inherited the biggest deficit in our history,” as he said on CBS. By the time Obama took office in January 2009, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office had already estimated that increased spending and decreased revenues would result in a $1.2 trillion deficit for fiscal year 2009, which began Oct. 1, 2008. In a detailed analysis of fiscal year 2009, we found that Obama was responsible for adding at most $203 billion to the deficit, which in the end topped $1.4 trillion that year.

But that was just the first of four years of trillion-plus deficits. The last three budgets fall squarely under Obama. And, during that time, the federal government ran up deficits of $1.3 trillion in 2010, $1.3 trillion in 2011, and about $1.2 trillion in the fiscal year that ends Sept. 30 — for a total of nearly $5.2 trillion in deficit spending.

Now, affixing responsibility (i.e., blame) for mega-deficits and the ballooning federal debt is filled with ideological landmines. Obama doesn’t take responsibility for war spending, for example, even though he continued the spending and, in fact, increased U.S. troop levels in Afghanistan. He also doesn’t want to take the blame for the expense of creating the Medicare prescription drug program — although his federal health care law increased funding for it. (The law will gradually close the notorious doughnut hole that caused some seniors to pay nearly $2,000 in prescription drug costs because of a gap in coverage.)

Regardless of how you assess blame, this much we can say with certainty: Obama’s policies are responsible for more than 10 percent of the deficits accumulated over the last four years.

Consider that just two pieces of legislation he signed account for nearly a third of the $5.2 trillion in deficits since 2009:

The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, better known as the stimulus act, will cost $831 billion through 2019, according to the CBO. The administration estimates the stimulus at $800 billion through 2011.
The Tax Relief, Unemployment Insurance Reauthorization, and Job Creation Act of 2010 extended the Bush tax cuts and cut the Social Security payroll tax for two years, as well as provided relief to some taxpayers who otherwise would have had to pay the alternative minimum tax. The 2010 tax act cost nearly $800 billion in 2011 and 2012.
The administration does not take responsibility for all of the spending in the 2010 tax act (which we will detail later). But Treasury accepts that the administration is responsible for another $410 billion in additional tax cuts and spending through 2011.

That means at a minimum the Obama administration is responsible for $2 trillion, or 39 percent of the $5.17 trillion in deficits since fiscal year 2009.

Looking ahead, Obama has promised if reelected to allow the Bush-era income tax cuts to expire for upper-income taxpayers, raising the top two tax rates from 33 percent and 35 percent to 36 percent and 39.6 percent. But he would keep the tax rates at the Bush-era levels for everyone else. Obama’s plan would cost the federal government $3 trillion over 10 years compared with $3.7 trillion if he allowed all of the Bush tax cuts to remain in place.

Treasury on Deficits

When we asked the Obama campaign about the president’s comments on “60 Minutes,” we were referred to a Treasury analysis of federal revenues and outlays from 2002 to 2011. The Treasury analysis is an exercise in fixing blame for how the U.S. ended up with $6 trillion in deficits over the 10-year period instead of amassing $5.9 trillion in surpluses — as originally projected by the CBO in its report “The Budget and Economic Outlook: Fiscal Years 2002-2011.”

CBO, January 2001: In the absence of significant legislative changes and assuming that the economy follows the path described in this report, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) projects that the total surplus will reach $281 billion in 2001. Such surpluses are projected to rise in the future, approaching $889 billion in 2011 and accumulating to $5.6 trillion over the 2002-2011 period.

Oops.

CBO’s assumptions did not factor in two recessions (2001, 2008), two wars and a slew of legislative changes from the Bush tax cuts to the Obama stimulus.

The difference between the projected surpluses and the actual deficits is $11.9 trillion over that 10-year period. Treasury concluded that Bush policies were to blame for 59 percent and Obama’s policies 12 percent. The rest — 29 percent — were what CBO calls “economic and technical changes,” mostly having to do with changing economic forecasts because of the recessions.

Treasury’s analysis was done by reviewing 36 CBO reports issued over the last 12 years: the biannual Budget and Economic Outlook and the CBO’s annual analysis of the president’s budget. Treasury accounted for the changes in CBO’s revenue and outlay projections during that time period to determine how far the original 2001 CBO projections had deviated and where the deviations had occurred.

But even Treasury’s 12 percent figure is misleading given that Obama was talking about deficits “over the last four years” (CBS interview) and “deficits that we’re seeing right now” (AARP speech).

Here are some examples of what the Treasury report includes — and excludes:

Deficit spending: It covers deficit spending only through 2011, ignoring the $1.17 trillion deficit in fiscal year 2012 that is about to close.
Bush tax cuts: Treasury estimates the Bush tax cuts, plus interest, cost $3 trillion through 2011. All of that is assigned to Bush. However, Obama supported several of the Bush tax cut provisions, and he has continued those policies and even expanded them. Bush doubled the Child Tax Credit from $500 to $1,000 through 2009; Obama campaigned to make it permanent and, as president, extended it to 2012. Bush expanded the Earned Income Tax Credit; Obama expanded it again in 2009 and extended it for 2010 through 2012. The Bush tax cuts patched the alternative minimum tax, and so did Obama’s stimulus and 2010 tax law. Bush raised the standard deduction for couples to provide relief from the so-called “marriage penalty”; candidate Obama promised to make it permanent and extended the tax relief in 2010 through 2012.
Obama tax cut: The 2010 tax cut legislation signed into law by Obama cost $797 billion, but Treasury assigns only $250 billion of that cost to Obama. Why? It excludes the cost of the legislation for fiscal year 2012 ($422.9 billion) because, as we said, the analysis only goes through 2011. In addition, Treasury assigned a portion of the 2011 cost to Bush — specifically $142 billion in tax cuts for taxpayers earning more than $250,000 — on the grounds that Obama opposed extending the tax cuts for the wealthy, even though he signed the legislation into law.
Defense: Treasury assigns the entire cost of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars — $1.4 trillion, including interest, through 2011 — to Bush. The Obama administration was authorized to spend $160 billion in 2010 (Table 1-4, “Defense-war related”) and $159 billion in 2011 (Table 4, “Overseas contingency operations”) on the two wars — each more than the $140 billion that was authorized in 2009, which was Bush’s last budget. Obama significantly increased troop levels in Afghanistan in both years. CBO says budget authority for the Afghanistan war jumped from $38 billion in 2009 to $87 billion in 2010 and $98 billion in 2011. Obama requested $115 billion for both wars in 2012. The cost from 2010 to 2012 is more than $400 billion, excluding interest.
Josh Gordon, policy director of the Concord Coalition, a nonpartisan group that advocates for “responsible fiscal policy,” notes the president wants to exclude spending on continuing Bush-era tax and war policies. “The problem is those pieces of legislation had his signatures,” he added.

CBO and the nonpartisan Pew Fiscal Analysis Initiative each did their own postmortem analyses of what happened from 2002 to 2011. Without apportioning blame, both reports found the accumulation of legislation changes — tax cuts, war spending and stimulus measures under both presidents — was the “main driver,” as Pew put it.

Pew, April 2011: Fiscal projections a decade out, even by the best analysts, are inherently imperfect, and this fact sheet shows that forecasting uncertainty explains a meaningful part of the revisions to CBO’s debt projections. However, the main driver of the difference between the January 2001 projection and the reality a decade later has been legislative changes.

There is no disputing, of course, that President George W. Bush was president for nearly eight of those 10 fiscal years and holds more responsibility for them than Obama.

But Obama bears more responsibility than he is willing to accept, and misrepresents the Treasury analysis to minimize his responsibility.

The finger-pointing also does not advance the debate over how to solve what everyone recognizes is a huge problem for the next president and Congress.

“This whole debate really is missing the point,” Gordon said. “The point is where do we go forward from where we are, and who has a plan to reduce the deficits over the long term.”

– Eugene Kiely

POSTED BY EUGENE KIELY ON FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 28, 2012 AT 5:15 PM FILED UNDER THE FACTCHECK WIRE. TAGGED WITH DEFICIT, PRESIDENT OBAMA.
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nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Nov 2, 2012 - 11:50am PT
Credit: nature

Credit: nature
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 2, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
like installing car elevators in his mansions
if he (Romney)has that kinda money to spend then he's more than welcome!

obama had ur's and my money and he spent it on some auto-crap ford industry.

talk about pissing on the constitution.

p.s Dee i like what u wrote but we only get 85% venture cap's cant we get more than that..
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
Further, Fox News has been shown two independent State Department cables, which have now been published by Foreign Policy magazine, that show that on the day of the attack Stevens' team sent cables expressing concern that the consulate was under surveillance. At least one of the cables says the Libyan police themselves -- the security force provided to the U.S. consulate by the Minister of Foreign Affairs -- was photographing the Consulate at 6:43 a.m. on the morning of the attack.
U.S. intelligence officials tell Fox News there were reports from


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/11/02/sources-emails-point-to-communication-breakdown-in-obama-administration-during/#ixzz2B5EQuQr9



Beghazigate continues to unfold.....
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 2, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
Pyro, turn off AM talk radio and learn to read.
obama had ur's and my money and he spent it on some auto-crap ford industry.

talk about pissing on the constitution.

FORD? You stupid sack of excrement your ignorance unmasks you.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:01pm PT
Ford?

Ford did not receive one dollar of Federal money

but then we all knew that
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:17pm PT

LISTEN: FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE DONALD RUMSFELD

Rumsfeld, a former north suburban Congressman who also served as White House Chief of Staff under President Gerald Ford, told Bruce Wolf and Dan Proft on "The Don and Roma Show" on WLS, that the murders of ambassador Chris Stevens and three other Americans represented a failure on behalf of the administration, "There was a failure for the Department of State and the Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, to provide the security that the embassy needed, obviously needed, because we had four people killed including the ambassador. But not only needed, but had requested. And had been turned down in their request."
Rumsfeld said the administration should have been more vigilant, especially given the anniversary of the September 11th terror attacks, "They knew that September 11th was coming up. They knew that there were Al Qaida related organizations in the neighborhood and terrorist training camps. They knew there were a flood of weapons around that country as a result of their civil war. And yet they didn't provide the security needed."
Rumsfeld also said it is not possible that President Obama was not fully informed of the events that were happening, "I was Chief of Staff for the White House for President Gerald Ford and when some information flows in that Americans are being attacked, that information goes promptly to the White House Chief of Staff and to the National Security Adviser, and they are the ones that are with the President day in and day out. So he had to know what was going on."

Related Story: New detailed account of Benghazi attack notes CIA’s quick response

Rumsfeld says the administration knew the attack was related to terrorism, yet it told the public the attack was a spontaneous reaction to the anti-Islamic You Tube video. Rumsfeld said that was "not really a responsible, Presidential, or honest way of approaching things."
While Rumsfeld praised the President for ordering the killing of Osama Bin Laden, he said Obama has failed to grasp the reality of the continued presence of Al-Qaida, "We're unwilling to acknowledge the fact that terrorism was not dead, and that terrorists do exist and that Al Qaida is not finished simply because Osama Bin Laden is dead."
Rumsfeld also criticized the President's handling of the economy, which he says will ultimately lead to a weakened U.S. standing around the world, "This administration it seems to me is modeling our economy after Europe which is a failed model. And you can't have trillions of dollars of debt year after year and not tell the world, send a signal to the world that America's in decline. That we're going to be weaker than we have been. Our economy is an enormous element in our strength as a country."
WBraun

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:22pm PT
The continued presence of Al-Qaida

There's no such thing.

Al-Qaida was created by the intelligence agencies as black ops, disinfo and psych ops to mislead the public and world.

Anyone that listens to Rumsfeld is a total fool .....
Ricky

climber
Sometimes LA
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:25pm PT

I'm torn. What happens when a fool calls a fool a fool? Does it make either of them any less the fool?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
im not the one voting for someone whos already PROVEN hes a liar, doesnt keep promises and acts just like bush did..

DRONES for all - EXCEPT saving our own....

we could certainly take out kadufus when asked. But when the same guys needed HELP, they got none. This is all obamas ugly baby and its only begun.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
Dee ee,

How about we separate California, rather than the United States? The leftists can have greater LA and the Bayarrhea. I'll even throw in Orange County. Oh, and take Santa Cruz County, Please!

We conservatives can take the more sensible parts of the state -- Central Coast, San Diego County, and the part of the state covered by the U. S. District Court for the Eastern District of California.

Now you can impose whatever misguided regulations you want, tax yourselves as you see fit, and engage in social engineering to your heart's content. Just leaves us alone. We're tired of being your colonies, and of your taking our water, telling us how to farm and run our lives, and trying to keep us from our mountains.

John
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
Doc, obama is in office now. Hes the one that has spit on the constitution to the degree never seen before- "detain anyone for any reason they deem fit , for any length of time w/o due process"....thats you, me or anyone of US. Just gone --poof--history. Gitmo you go...

Yes executive power has been taken to an astoundingly ILLEGAL degree. Obama took that bush ball and rolled it forward.. I cant for the life of me see ANYONE agreeing with that crap. NO one...
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
Tuesday 11/6/2012 ....

Day of reckoning for all of us.....

11/7/2012 .... we all come back here, and mud sling.


DeDe.... the south tried that back in 1861. Didn't work out to well.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
Credit: Hawkeye



Credit: Hawkeye



Credit: Hawkeye


Credit: Hawkeye




Credit: Hawkeye
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
Rumsfeld? Really? You would quote a man who should be facing court in the Hague for war crimes and crimes against Humanity simply because it is the same Rovian message you have bought into lock, stock and barrel? Did you forget all the warnings Donny Dumbsfeld had about 9/11 under his watch?

Jebus Rong when was the last time you got laid? And not by the Oosik.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
dont blame you one bit Doc.. What are you gonna say about that??

Your boy obama taking YOUR rights away, throwing them in the trash and all..

Deficit- no help

Govt spending- good greif

Foreign affairs-- like a fish out of water flopping aimlessly.

Constitution fornicating-- hes done well there.

Obamacare- a disaster in the wait

Tell me again why anyone should vote for obama?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
sending people to Gitmo?
what an idiot,
just wait till Romney is elected, we will have a gitmo in Carson City for all the non-mormons that whine

will they still let you have internet access?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
Hawkeye,,Im SURE thats next on obamas "kill list" they want a piece of this - on that one can rely.


Doc,,obama hasnt LOWERED anything, other that your personal rights.
John M

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
http://news.yahoo.com/detailed-account-benghazi-attack-notes-cias-quick-response-020906681--abc-news-politics.html

you need to stand down Ron.. you are being led around by a ring in your nose
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
Rumsfield, Rumsfield. I've heard of that name before. It rings a bell...


Oh yes, that Rumsfield:








And Ron outs himself as a real bonehead with this line:

"im not the one voting for someone whos already PROVEN hes a liar..."


Whoa boy.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
John M,

no doubt there is some truth to the article, i am sure there is....now consider the timing....now consider the timeline and how long it took for the administration to clearly indicate that perhaps it was not a stupid movie but just so happens coincides with 9/11....

liberals cannot possibly be this blinded by stupidity can they as to believe that politics is not going on with this issue? really? i worry about people that sutpid.
John M

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
Actually Hawk.. it has more to do with not outing CIA assets. Something the GOP has a history of not caring about.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
.now consider the timing....now consider the timeline and how long it took for the administration

Yeah less than 24 hours to say it was an act of terrorism. what a slacker. He should have gone public as it was happening like Mittens did.

CockEye you are one pathetic hypocrite. And an anonymous troll. You bring an unpleasant stench to the forum.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
Ive seen that John.. Does the fact that a team tried to go in yet DIDNT affect any help and left due to being under fire- still excuse not using ADDITIONAL forces? Like a Specrtre gun ship that already had its target "painted"? Or a Swift team from Tripoli being sent in, or maybe TWO teams?

This of course providing the accuracy of the CIA story. And lets not forget that intel was had in AUGUST of the upcoming events. And i will again mention several emails and communications of requests for help were received by the whitehouse. There IS nothing that is going to turn this around other that blatant lies by the admin. They have already tried that. Remember that whole "video" bullsheet?


Then we can talk about the fact that it took 24 days for the "investigators " to arrive in benghazi.. I wonder WTH they expect to find after 24 days of rummaging and pillage by the islamists??? Might as well go piss in the wind and drink some yeller snow...
John M

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
You are being led by a ring in your nose Ron. . Embassy employees are attacked often. It is a dangerous job. We don't go to war every time that they are. That is the significance of the number of embassy employees who died under Bush's watch.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:05pm PT
That's an impressive list of fabricated 'violations' of the constitution - if you buy those assertions you really are gullible.

[ Oh, and do note that F & F was just an op under "Project Gunrunner". Shipping guns to Mexico was another absolutely brilliant idea of the Bush team the Obama administration failed to curtail due to the illegal immigration hysteria on the right. ]
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:06pm PT
No one said go to war.. But ill point out that each time obama has found some target, hes not hesitated to go right on in with Seal teams, aircraft and drones to take out one or two guys. That in countrys like Pakistan. So tell me why the same reactions WERENT used in benghazi? Our diplomats sign on to a dangerous job, but they also expect and DESERVE the backing of the US MILITARY to ensure their safety.. 7 fuggin hours those two badasses took on the fight. They COULD have and SHOULD have been saved.. We do this all the time to kill one friggin talibanner..


edit: heres the reality,, obama is now feeling how the russians felt in afghanistan.. He delt with the libyan forces, gave them arms for their civil war against kadufus then took kadufus out helping to seat the regime that claims to hold power there- yet that changes on a daily basis in the turmoil left from all of this. Obama be up to his neck in libya and the results can be claimed by him as well. So now he focuses on Iran- good grief what will he bungle there?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
I already explained why - "Black Hawk Down" is why they didn't go in and the number of CIA personnel involved no doubt further contributed to the whole clusterf*#k as it wasn't a typical State installation. Again, you have an incredibly naive view of the world.
John M

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:20pm PT
Because Benghazi isn't Afghanistan. Using a gunship in a country that we aren't fighting a war in could be construed as an act of war.

I have no doubt that every year some Ambassador somewhere complains that there isn't enough security at his embassy. Sometimes those complaints are back channel, and some times they are public. And every year some embassy gets more security and another one gets less. And sometimes our security efforts fail. It happens every year. Which is why 43 embassy personnel died up Bush's watch. The thing that you need to understand is that the party that keeps wanting to reduce the security budget is the GOP. The other thing that you need to understand is that we can't always use military assets. Unless of course you want WW3. Which is a distinct possibility. We nearly entered it during the Bush admin and the middle east is still a hot bed. It probably will be as long as they have oil. Russia wants it. China wants it, and we want it. Do you risk starting WW3 every time embassy personnel are attacked? No.. you don't. So that means sometimes embassy personnel die.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
Woods had painted the mortar installation- that required only a gunship from a DISTANCE even. They can set back a mile and cover that consulate from the right angles. This isnt Somalia and armory has advanced. And if thats the case, then ALL foreign diplomats should evacuate TODAY!


John osama was taken out in Pakistan. We went right on in and didnt give a rip what they thought.
John M

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
And if thats the case, then ALL foreign diplomats should evacuate TODAY!

Errr... I guess we should also pull all of our troops out of harms way too. And yes.. embassy personnel know that there job can be dangerous depending on what country they are in.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
This Republican, at least, feels strongly that we should not be politicizing the Benghazi issue. Unfortunately, both parties reverted to their public personae, and blamed the other for the tragedy. The more I find out about it, the more it sounds like the inevitable result of a government run by people. People are imperfect, and sometimes make mistakes. Dividing responsibility between the CIA and State makes mistakes more likely. End of story.

In fact, to its credit, this administration has, by and large, pursued the same foreign policy that its predecessors -- Republican and Democrat -- have done, just with different rhetoric. Frankly, I think the far left has a much greater beef with the Obama foreign policy (as opposed to its rhetoric) than do most Republicans.

We should be united in condemning this attack. Instead, we're backbiting and trying to score points by showing the "other side's" weakness. Here I thought we should be on the same side. Enough!

John
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
^^^^^
Hear, hear!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:31pm PT
Tell me again why anyone should vote for obama?


Because he is willing to give gays a fair shake.

Because he believes women can make their own healthcare choices.

Because he got us out of Iraq.

Because he is winding down Afghanistan.

Because he believes in climate change.

Because Osama is dead, and he made the call.

Because he saved the auto makers.

Because he believes in the importance of government.

Because he passed our first meaningful healthcare reform.

Because he's universes better than the alternative.

Because the alternative is Mitt Romney and right wing religious teabaggers.

Because he believes in tolerance and blacks and hispanics and asians.

Because he doesn't want to put American citizen muslims on hate lists because they're muslim.

Any more questions ?
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
I will never vote for a Muslim!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
Yeah and what about

your mean democrat?

your modal democrat?

your standardly deviational democrat?

Do these really exist, or are they just some fleeting imaginary numbers?



Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
Its NOT that i dont condemn the attack,, i most certainly do.

But you dont have to be a dick tracy to know the "investigating" a scene 24 days after the fact is like putting a band aid on a dry scab.

Ive wanted us OUT of the ME and their OIL circle jerk. If you go there you ARE in the jihad no matter the side you back. History has shown us CLEARLY to be a fact. I dont want us to support them with money or aid or any of the like. WE are hurting here. We need to think about US. We have been engaged in war after war after war now over the same shyt and as the saying goes,,"aint nuthuin changed"...

The TIME has come for us to rely on our own reserves- and our own American ingenuity to solve the issues of reliance on fossil fuels. Use the borrowed monies to do THAT instead of bolster an ME govt that WILL turn around and use that against you. Make sense?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
Ive wanted us OUT of the ME and their OIL circle jerk.

Mitt Romney's gonna do that? Whoa, I missed that part.........
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
Again, incredibly naive. It's exactly the same naivety that has caused us grief in the Mideast again and again. It isn't Latin America and we don't control any aspect of and it's always a disaster when we attempt to act like we do.

Few political events in the region are not initiated by us and when large scale instabilities evolve such as those we are seeing from the 'Arab Spring' our hand is forced - we have to respond or risk being sidelined in world events in ways that further marginalize our role in the region.

Now I know that's a big concept for your simple world, but the reality is that it's a shifting landscape and no one - not us, not Russia, not China, and not even Iran - knows quite what an appropriate response for their interests looks like. Everyone is winging it.

About the only thing you can say for sure is that Bush administration's purge of Mideast analysts, native speakers, and HUMINT resources from our intelligence services is now absolutely killing us.
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
TK: Leftists tend to hate anything that has an image of being strong, good and successful. They hate America, they hate Western civilization, they hate white males, they hate rationality. The reasons that leftists give for hating the West, etc. clearly do not correspond with their real motives. They SAY they hate the West because it is warlike, imperialistic, sexist, ethnocentric and so forth, but where these same faults appear in socialist countries or in primitive cultures, the leftist finds excuses for them, or at best he GRUDGINGLY admits that they exist; whereas he ENTHUSIASTICALLY points out (and often greatly exaggerates) these faults where they appear in Western civilization. Thus it is clear that these faults are not the leftist's real motive for hating America and the West. He hates America and the West because they are strong and successful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
Your average republican:

Willard Romney?
Grover Norquist?


"We don't need someone who can think. We need someone with enough digits to hold a pen."
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:44pm PT
Farouk you sound as irrational as my brother.
Crawl back under your bridge anonymous troll.

Oh and...
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
H were you talking to me,, because we said the same basic things.??

We do not need the middle east. That was a yesteryear thing. Weve been attacked in Saudi Arabia yemen ,turkey, syria,iran, afghanistan ,pakistan, just about any stan you can name. Consulates embassys etc etc etc. All the while alkayduh continues to molest us If a radical change doesnt take effect in the dealings currently, i see no end in my life time to what is happening there right now. Jihad isnt new,, its as old as those hills.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
He hates America and the West because they are strong and successful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, he "hates America and the West" because that's another desperate fantasy rightwing nutjobs tell themselves. They are afflicted by overwhelming feelings of persecution, are manipulated like so much political oragami, and as a whole can't be the brightest bulbs in the box given how often they vote against their own economic interests by simply waving flags in their faces.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
Section 1: Legislative power vested in Congress

sorry it was'nt ford it was the auto unions.

carry on! i think there should be a thread about the constitution.

i don't care whom u vote for just as long as ur a constitutionalist.. :)

Philo there are three things americans should have

SOAP BOX
BALLET BOX
AMMO BOX
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
TK: Words like "self-confidence," "self-reliance," "initiative", "enterprise," "optimism," etc. play little role in the liberal and leftist vocabulary. The leftist is anti-individualistic, pro-collectivist. He wants society to solve everyone's needs for them, take care of them. He is not the sort of person who has an inner sense of confidence in his own ability to solve his own problems and satisfy his own needs. The leftist is antagonistic to the concept of competition because, deep inside, he feels like a loser.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
Your reasoning, survival, leaves a bit to be desired. I could reply point-by-point, but I have neither the time, nor that ability to write in such a way as others would care to read. Nonetheless:

Because he is willing to give gays a fair shake. Agreed.

Because he believes women can make their own healthcare choices. So does Romney and the Republicans. The difference is that Obama wants others to pay for those choices, even if they oppose them.

Because he got us out of Iraq. The jury's still out on that, I'm afraid.

Because he is winding down Afghanistan.No evidence that Romney would not.

Because he believes in climate change.So do I, and, most likely, most other Republicans. The issue is what to do about it, and whether the unilateral decisions of the Obama EPA represent the proper balance between marginal cost and marginal benefit.

Because Osama is dead, and he made the call.Agreed, and he deserves a lot of credit for that.

Because he saved the auto makers.Disagree. HE paid his UAW allies at the expense of everyone else. What did he do, for example, to save Ford? Nothing. Chapter 11 without the governmental robbery of the secured debt probably would have given us a better automaker, but since that's a counter-factual, we'll never know.

Because he believes in the importance of government.So does every other person running for public office. The issue isn't the importance of government, the issue is the proper role and limits of government. He arrogates to himself a rather large amount of executive power that, IMHO exceeds that given in the Constitution.

Because he passed our first meaningful healthcare reform. I agree that it's meaningful, and that it's a change. I strongly disagree that it's an improvement, and it appears that a majority of Americans do, too.

Because he's universes better than the alternative. No comment needed.

Because the alternative is Mitt Romney and right wing religious teabaggers.See above.

Because he believes in tolerance and blacks and hispanics and asians.Are you saying that Romney does not believe in tolerance? More amazingly, do you say that Romney disbelieves in Blacks, Hispanics and Asians? As in he thinks the don't exist? Or do you mean that he disbelieves their ability to succeed? If anything, it's the Democrats that disbelieve in the ability of Blacks and Hispanics to succeed, because the Democrats' policies have a foundation of racist disbelief in the ability of those groups to succeed. The contention regarding Asians is even more absurd. The Democrats have perpetrated racial discrimination -- in the name of ending racial discrimination -- that had as one of its primary effects a strong anti-Asian outcome. That's nothing new for the Democrats. After all, FDR ordered the Japanese-Americans confined to domestic concentration camps. If the University of California Democrats had their way, there would be far fewer Asians enrolled in the UC system.

Because he doesn't want to put American citizen muslims on hate lists because they're muslim. Neither does Romney. He does, however, recognize that currently America's biggest terrorist threat comes from Muslim terrorists.

Any more questions ? None needed.

John
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
That's why most federal tax dollars go to support overwhelmingly republican states - because they're so damn manly and self-reliant.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
NV gives more than it gets..;-)
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:51pm PT
TK: The leftist is not typically the kind of person whose feelings of inferiority make him a braggart, an egotist, a bully, a self-promoter, a ruthless competitor. This kind of person has not wholly lost faith in himself. He has a deficit in his sense of power and self-worth, but he can still conceive of himself as having the capacity to be strong, and his efforts to make himself strong produce his unpleasant behavior. But the leftist is too far gone for that. His feelings of inferiority are so ingrained that he cannot conceive of himself as individually strong and valuable. Hence the collectivism of the leftist. He can feel strong only as a member of a large organization or a mass movement with which he identifies himself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Notice the masochistic tendency of leftist tactics. Leftists protest by lying down in front of vehicles, they intentionally provoke police or racists to abuse them, etc. These tactics may often be effective, but many leftists use them not as a means to an end but because they PREFER masochistic tactics. Self-hatred is a leftist trait.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
This Republican, at least, feels strongly that we should not be politicizing the Benghazi issue. Unfortunately, both parties reverted to their public personae, and blamed the other for the tragedy. The more I find out about it, the more it sounds like the inevitable result of a government run by people. People are imperfect, and sometimes make mistakes. Dividing responsibility between the CIA and State makes mistakes more likely. End of story.

In fact, to its credit, this administration has, by and large, pursued the same foreign policy that its predecessors -- Republican and Democrat -- have done, just with different rhetoric. Frankly, I think the far left has a much greater beef with the Obama foreign policy (as opposed to its rhetoric) than do most Republicans.

We should be united in condemning this attack. Instead, we're backbiting and trying to score points by showing the "other side's" weakness. Here I thought we should be on the same side. Enough!

John


I kinda see where you're coming from, John. But I have to disagree!

4 people are DEAD! Wrap your head around that first. About 30 made it out o.k.

Was this a preventable attack/assault? Yes.

It wasn't like the Embassy assaults in Africa earlier. They had intel that people were scouting this position! They asked for help!

It isn't going too far to call BS on this op! This did not have to happen.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
Because he believes women can make their own healthcare choices. So does Romney and the Republicans. The difference is that Obama wants others to pay for those choices, even if they oppose them.

Well, that's complete bullsh#t. It's simply an exercise in equal rights - all employed women get the same baseline benefits regardless of their employer. End of story. There are cults and people all across the nation which do not believe in medical care of any kind - if they become employers are you going to speak out for their right to withhold all medical care?
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
TK: Many leftists have an intense identification with the problems of groups that have an image of being weak (women), defeated (American Indians), repellent (homosexuals), or otherwise inferior. The leftists themselves feel that these groups are inferior. They would never admit it to themselves that they have such feelings, but it is precisely because they do see these groups as inferior that they identify with their problems!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
Sorry JE, I'll just pop out the first couple. BTW that was a helluva response for someone that doesn't have the time!

Your reasoning too, leaves something to be desired.
*Because he believes women can make their own healthcare choices. So does Romney and the Republicans.
It's not just about who pays and you know it. The right wing has wanted to take away a woman's choice for safe and legal abortion ever since RoeVWade. Deny that?

*Because he got us out of Iraq. The jury's still out on that, I'm afraid.
Agreed, but he sure got us a helluva lot further out than George did.

*Because he is winding down Afghanistan.No evidence that Romney would not.
Except his comments about not committing to a timeline and showing the bad guys our hand.

*Because he believes in climate change.So do I, and, most likely, most other Republicans. The issue is what to do about it, and whether the unilateral decisions of the Obama EPA represent the proper balance between marginal cost and marginal benefit.
Well I don't buy what I hear from the right about it, how's that?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
FAROUK HATES GAYS AND MUSLIMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
Yeah, four people are dead - maybe the CIA shouldn't have been playing fast and loose with security. Oh and you'd hope that a CIA operation gathering intel on the current on-the-ground situation would have been way further out ahead of the situation to begin with. It wasn't State's failure so much as the CIA's and the fact that the CIA guys got blindsided so badly probably only heightened concerns of yet another "Black Hawk Down" fiasco and led to a lot of decision-making paralysis.

And'four people' are dead? Hey, four people die in Iraq and Afghanistan every week due to W's mind-addling, but most excellent Mideast adventure.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
CockEye you are one pathetic hypocrite. And an anonymous troll. You bring an unpleasant stench to the forum.

Credit: Hawkeye

philo, i know its dark in there but i guess it explains why you are also so full of sheet. you are what you eat you know.

by the way,

any pathetic loser who would bring out their family issues here with their own brother is really a piece of work....not something to be proud of at all you POS.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
Survival is a bugger roller!
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
Dr. F
everything your little lame ass posts say is wrong, and pure propaganda
Pull your head out,

It's the stupidest sh#t ever posted
Obama just made up that sh#t, and you believe it, what an idiot

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
BOMBSHELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Farouk isn't even an American citizen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He's here illegally!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He's on the NO FLY list!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Doesn't even have a greencard, and is failing at his attempt to get the fake marriage thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He's trying to get an anchor baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
The Dems have been trying to Not politicise this tragedy,

wow, too much petyote for you Dr. F???

lets see, Hillary takes the blame what 24 hours befroe the debate and just yesterday an intelligence report comes out (no arm twisting there from the whitehouse) citing actual "facts" from the event.

yeah right, no politics from the whitehouse.

here is that turnip truck you fell out of......

Credit: Hawkeye
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:07pm PT
TK: Almost everyone will agree that we live in a deeply troubled society. One of the most widespread manifestations of the craziness of our world is leftism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
No one has still been able to tell me just how one goes about "declaring an end" to the Afghan war? A magic date when all taliban shall disappear from the country? When Jihad just blows away in the east winds?

Not that im against getting the H out of there. But is this going to be declared some victory and if so over whom/what? Will it come back again like a stale fart? Weve done nothing there really. Recruits down to eight year olds pour into the ranks of militias every day.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
wanna bet? Iran coming to a theater near you....Turkey and Syria too..
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
No one has still been able to tell me just how one goes about "declaring an end" to the Afghan war?

You do it the same way the Russians and good Catholics do it.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
Yep --sayin wholy crap we got NUTHIN from all that!
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
TK: If our society had no social problems at all, the leftists would have to INVENT problems in order to provide themselves with an excuse for making a fuss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
If you guys weren't so hilarious you'd be pathetic...or vise versa.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:18pm PT
TFPU!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
Actually, we got a bill for three to four trillion dollars for Iraq and Afghanistan.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
tru that although more like six or seven trill.

If we were actually thinkng we would be more into South and Central america- you know worrying about those that actually connect to us.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
for Doc,,,looks like obama is already threatening..

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obama-warns-iran-speech-invokes-slain-ambassador-chris/story?id=17320388#.UJQfP2-_DLo



as i said,, either way cometh Iran..
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:38pm PT
TK:Leftists may claim that their activism is motivated by compassion or by moral principle, and moral principle does play a role for the leftist of the oversocialized type. But compassion and moral principle cannot be the main motives for leftist activism. Hostility is too prominent a component of leftist behavior; so is the drive for power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:54pm PT
Credit: Hawkeye


Credit: Hawkeye


Credit: Hawkeye
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
If we were actually thinkng we would be more into South and Central america- you know worrying about those that actually connect to us.

We did the latin thing - Bush Sr's main focus as head of the CIA was latin america and murdering as many folks who opposed our corporate interests as possible - you remember, folks like whole seditious villages and especially all those uppity jesuit priests and nuns.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
well yeah,, then fast and furious with Mexico so on and so forth. I however was talking of a meaningful action not the covert ops sort of thing. But,, id rather see it go to solving our own issues FIRST and foremost.

I know you cant "borrow" your way out of a credit card disaster. Your simply just in deeper. Especially if you turn around a give that borrowed money away in foreign countrys.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 2, 2012 - 04:26pm PT
wanna bet? Iran coming to a theater near you....Turkey and Syria too..


Uh, they're already in the US, bro!



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 04:33pm PT
But,, id rather see it go to solving our own issues FIRST and foremost.

The rightwing doesn't believe we have any issues. Hell, farouk thinks even acknowledging we may have issues is an act of self-loathing. That IS the problem and the FIRST issue conservatives should tackle.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 2, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
Election 2012: Iowa President
Iowa: Romney 49%, Obama 48%


looks like Colo is doing the same..



Credit: Ron Anderson
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Nov 2, 2012 - 05:15pm PT
TK: Leftists: Helping black people is not their real goal. Instead, race problems serve as an excuse for them to express their own hostility and frustrated need for power. In doing so they actually harm black people, because the activists' hostile attitude toward the white majority tends to intensify race hatred!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 2, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
Hezbollah is here...in the US.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 2, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
A map purporting to forecast election results, and advertising "no tossups", clearly isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
It's the "I'm afraid of brown people" thread. Doesn't matter if the brown people are in the middle east or the white house.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 3, 2012 - 12:14am PT
Hey right whiners, suck on this:

photo not found
Missing photo ID#271814

Nate Silver, updated an hour ago.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 5, 2012 - 06:22am PT
OMG Wade, what is THAT?

So Dirt Claud says the US is not a democracy, but a Federal Republic.

Yes, it has been a while, but I have read the Constitution. And I am proud to say that the second person to sign the Declaration of Independence, Josiah Bartlett (not to be confused with Martin Sheen's character on the West Wing) was in my 'family tree' (as is Mark Twain). Josiah Bartlett, a physician representing New Hampshire at the Continental Congress.

And JE, it was not liberals that allowed the Turks to slaughter Armenians. It was the conservatives of the day that sat back.

You probably know this, but U of Nevada has an Armenian studies program (or did at one time), as does Fresno State.

And you can keep Orange County.

EDIT
NB It was one of my former climbing partners, David Yerian, who got me interested (back in the mid-1970s) in the Armenian situation.

And U o N at Reno has a Basque studies program. Interesting people the Basques are. Nobody knows where they came from. There are theories, but they are just that, theories. The Basque language is related to Swahili, Martian, you name it, but linguists cannot nail it down.

My interest? I was dating a gal here in Ireland whose father was a Spanish Basque and mother was a French Basque. Last I heard, she is teaching at a Basque school in Spain.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 5, 2012 - 07:47am PT
Basque language came from Neanderthal, I'm pretty certain
dirtbag

climber
Nov 5, 2012 - 09:28am PT
Good morning Right Wingers! Another day, another uptick for the President. This time, Forecasting Guru gives Governor Moneybags a 13.7% chance of winning.


photo not found
Missing photo ID#272295


Sorry righties, but it looks like time is about up to make the White House white again.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 5, 2012 - 09:34am PT
I just hope after the votes are projected and the tally is in that Willard and the Mitt-tites will finally embrace truth, accept the overwhelming weight of reality and concede graciously.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 5, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
Jaybro, you could be right, but I am certain that a lot of scholars would disagree with you. I have studied, a lot, the Basque language, and I do not think it was Neanderthal. Why would you think otherwise?

Yes pre-Eurpopean, proto-European? But Neanderthal? That is a stretch, but, considering the lack of a better answer. Perhaps. But you are really reaching where other scholars have gone and discounted. No, not Neanderthal, and if I were you, I would not say that to loudly in San Sebastian or Bilbao.

The natives may not take to kindly to your views.

EDIT

Ridiculous, I have studied as much of the language as many non-Basque people.

Neanderthal. Where in the world did you come up with that?

Jaybro, you are educated. Was it a tongue in cheek comment? Or do your seriously believe Neanderthal? Like I said, tread lightly in Bilbao if you believe Neanderthal.

I know Basque people, they are not Neanderthal or even closely related. Yes, it is a mystery where the people came from, but Neanderthal? Tread lightly in that part of the world.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 5, 2012 - 05:23pm PT
The "STAR" in Elko,,,mmmmmmmmmmmmm......
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 5, 2012 - 05:41pm PT
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Nov 5, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
"So Dirt Claud says the US is not a democracy, but a Federal Republic."

I said that?
I think the Constitution says that. But being how you believe conservatives are liars and cheats I can see why you would think I made that up.

Article IV, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution states:

“The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government”

This was not set up to be Democracy. The forefathers new that a democratic form of government would eventually fall. As they all have through out history.

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule,
where 51% of the people may take away
the rights of the other 49%." — Thomas Jefferson
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 5, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 5, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
The Basque people are interesting - there is a community of them in Bakersfield for some reason - haven't looked up why yet -

Riles,

Credit: Reilly


dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Nov 5, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
Man, those are some gorgeous places for sure. Would love to be able to climb it someday, but just to be there would be awesome.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
Excellent pics upthread!

By SHELDON G. ADELSON

"When members of the Democratic Party booed the inclusion of God and Jerusalem in their party platform this year, I thought of my parents.

They would have been astounded.

The immigrant family in which I grew up was, in the matter of politics, typical of the Jews of Boston in the 1930s and '40s. Of the two major parties, the Democrats were in those days the more supportive of Jewish causes.

Indeed, only liberal politicians campaigned in our underprivileged neighborhood. Boston's Republicans, insofar as we knew them, were remote, wealthy elites ("Boston Brahmins"), some of whose fancy country clubs didn't accept Jews.

It therefore went without saying that we were Democrats. Like most Jews around the country, being Democrat was part of our identity, as much a feature of our collective personality as our religion.

So why did I leave the party?

My critics nowadays like to claim it's because I got wealthy or because I didn't want to pay taxes or because of some other conservative caricature. No, the truth is the Democratic Party has changed in ways that no longer fit with someone of my upbringing.

One obvious example is the party's new attitude toward Israel. A sobering Gallup poll from last March asked: "Are your sympathies more with the Israelis or more with the Palestinians?" Barely 53% of Democrats chose Israel, the sole liberal democracy in the region. By contrast, an overwhelming 78% of Republicans sympathized with Israel.

Nowhere was this change in Democratic sympathies more evident than in the chilling reaction on the floor of the Democratic convention in September when the question of Israel's capital came up for a vote. Anyone who witnessed the delegates' angry screaming and fist-shaking could see that far more is going on in the Democratic Party than mere opposition to citing Jerusalem in their platform. There is now a visceral anti-Israel movement among rank-and-file Democrats, a disturbing development that my parents' generation would not have ignored.

Another troubling change is that Democrats seem to have moved away from the immigrant values of my old neighborhood—in particular, individual charity and neighborliness. After studying tax data from the IRS, the nonpartisan Chronicle of Philanthropy recently reported that states that vote Republican are now far more generous to charities than those voting Democratic. In 2008, the seven least-generous states all voted for President Obama. My father, who kept a charity box for the poor in our house, would have frowned on this fact about modern Democrats.

Democrats would reply that taxation and government services are better vehicles for helping the underprivileged. And, yes, government certainly has its role. But when you look at states where Democrats have enjoyed years of one-party dominance—California, Illinois, New York—you find that their liberal policies simply don't deliver on their promises of social justice.

Take, for example, President Obama's adopted home state. In October, a nonpartisan study of Illinois's finances by the State Budget Crisis Task Force offered painful evidence that liberal Illinois is suffering from abject economic, demographic and social decline. With the worst credit rating in the country, and with the second-biggest public debt per capita, the Prairie State "has been doing back flips on a high wire, without a net," according to the report.

Political scientist Walter Russell Mead summed up the sad results of these findings at The American Interest: "Illinois politicians, including the present president of the United States, have wrecked one of the country's potentially most prosperous and dynamic states, condemned millions of poor children to substandard education, failed to maintain vital infrastructure, choked business development and growth through unsustainable tax and regulatory policies—and still failed to appease the demands of the public sector unions and fee-seeking Wall Street crony capitalists who make billions off the state's distress."

At times, it seems almost as if President Obama wants to impose the failed Illinois model on the whole country. Each year of his presidency has produced unsustainable deficits, and he takes no responsibility for his spending. Worse still, unemployment has become chronic, and many Americans have given up on looking for work.

Whenever President Obama deplores the wealthy ("fat-cat bankers," "millionaires and billionaires," "at a certain point you've made enough money," and so on), it tells me that he has failed to learn the economic lessons of Illinois, and that he still doesn't understand the vital role entrepreneurs play in creating jobs in our society.

As a person who has been able to rise from poverty to affluence, and who has created jobs and work benefits for tens of thousands of families, I feel obligated to speak up and support the American ideals I grew up with—charity, self-reliance, accountability. These are the age-old virtues that help make our communities prosperous. Yet, sadly, the Democratic Party no longer seems to value them as it once did. That's why I switched parties, and why I'm now giving amply to Republicans.

Although I don't agree with every Republican position—I'm liberal on several social issues—there is enough common cause with the party for me to know I've made the right choice.

It's the choice that, I believe, my old immigrant Jewish neighbors would have made. They would not have let a few disagreements with Republicans void the importance of siding with the political party that better supports liberal democracies like Israel, the party that better exemplifies the spirit of charity, and the party with economic policies that would certainly be better for those Americans now looking for work.

The Democratic Party just isn't what it used to be."

Sarah Silvermans take on the richest guy in Nevada for some background if you do not know who he is. http://scissorsheldon.com/
QITNL

climber
Nov 5, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
Second shot is Temple Crag.

Credit: QITNL

Woot!
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 6, 2012 - 03:22am PT
Yep, I was thinking Temple Crag also. In the past, I have climbed in the Palisades a lot.


Dirt Claud, if I misinterpreted your post, apologies.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Nov 6, 2012 - 11:10am PT
No worries Pat, perhaps I'm just over reading stuff too.
Just wanted to make it clear that the Constitution said it, not me.
It would be good to start a thread on the Constitution to find out how much most of us "really" understand it. Me included of course.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 7, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
Your average democrat is ecstatic at the repudiation of republican obstructionism on display in Obama's dominating performance in the swing states.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 7, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
Suck it Righties--you've been spanked again.

Mitt Romney, spanked again!
Mitt Romney, spanked again!
Credit: dirtbag
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Nov 7, 2012 - 12:45pm PT
Your average democrat is ecstatic at the repudiation of republican obstructionism on display in Obama's dominating performance in the swing states.

Here's hoping that the far right realizes that obstructionism hurts the people.

Here in NH, it's almost sad that Charlie Bass lost. He was one of the last of his type. A moderate republican. Pro choice, pro environment.

Its a shame that the tea party has forced out the moderate republicans and conversely, the dems have forced out the blue dog democrats.

Those type of people are exactly who we need.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 7, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
The Basses are an eclectic crew by any measure. We used to party with them up at their lake compound when we lived in Francestown back in the mid-80s. Moderate Republicans aren't making a comeback anytime soon though and that's good for our party over the course of the next twenty years.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 8, 2012 - 05:48am PT
Dirt Claud, no prob, we all see things our own way at times.

I still think that the Electoral College should be given a kick into touch. It is an archaic "institution" IMO.

And I still think that the position of POTUS should be a one-term six-year deal.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 9, 2012 - 07:43am PT
I understand the idea behind the Electoral College, giving the smaller states a fair say, but it really should be about the popular vote. I believe a big rethink should be on the EC. It is not so much that I think that the ''fewer' should have an equal say than the 'greater', of course there must be some sort of balance. After all, as Dirt Claud pointed out, we are a Republic, a country made up of states.

The balance should focus on the individual states and the Federal Republic.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 9, 2012 - 09:07am PT
A down side of the electoral college is that the largest states--TX, NY, CA were ignored, except when campaigns needed $$$.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 9, 2012 - 09:25am PT
Suck it Righties--you've been spanked again.

While I'm relieved that Romney didn't make it to office, you have to admit - Obama signing an extension of the Patriot act, the NDAA, shutting down state medical Marijuana dispenseries that were legal (putting thousands of law-abiding citizens in jail for YEARS)... what the f*#k?!?


And when he ALMOST gets something useful done it gets killed by the senate (closing Gitmo, among hundreds of other things).


I'm happIER. Am I happy? F*#K no.







The election is over. I'm not trying to argue one side vs. another. I want to know if it is possible to have a conversation about what it is the President can actually do versus what he is doing, because he is doing some terrible things.... and NOT doing some pretty important ones.



And Mitt F*#king Romney was the spawn of satan and would have set our country back culturally and socially 20 years. Just in case you thought that was my 'angle.' I don't have one...
dirtbag

climber
Nov 9, 2012 - 09:45am PT
Good points GDavis.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 10:39am PT
There are some posters on this forum that will do ALL they can to continue the DIVIDED states of america.

they will post graphs comparing education to voting in attempts to paint one side as "uneducated". They will slander the opposition or any other opinions..

They will refer to the republicans as being demonic, warmongering un educated rednecks while the republicans call the dems much the same.

And we then immolate congress and the senate to a T..
gf

climber
Nov 9, 2012 - 10:43am PT
Cross post from another thread -but the economist (couchmaster this is a magazine that fiscally responsible people read-some dems, some repubs) pretty much nailed it:

The Democrats’ gains in the Senate stemmed largely from the Republicans choosing candidates of such tragicomic extremism that they might have been characters from a Tom Wolfe novel.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Nov 9, 2012 - 10:45am PT
they will post graphs comparing education to voting in attempts to paint one side as "uneducated". They will slander the opposition or any other opinions..

But that figure was initially presented by Glen Beck to indicate that universities are brain-washing people as liberal. That hardly sounds like coming together as one! The numbers are what the numbers are. Interpretations vary though. Some see some interpretations as divisive - others see them as a point of interest for other reasons.

Personally, I think the only thing that is divisive is the name calling and the absolutes (i.e., all democrats are....; all republicans are....). That is foolishness.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 9, 2012 - 10:54am PT
Non Sequitar
Non Sequitar
Credit: Fritz
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 11:05am PT
Crimpie,, using Glen Beck as a defense isnt helping any cause. Your average republican or conservative doesnt listen to Beck Limbaaagh or any of the other slingers, but they certainly are portrayed like that.


Just my dealings with them here have been proof positive that many here are just polar opposites of Beck et al.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 9, 2012 - 11:07am PT
Ron complained
Now THAT ^^^^^^^ is really quite accurate,,ive been labelled exactly as such on the other politard thread.


Only when your posts are racist, lies or hateful. Then you cry about how everyone calls you bad names.


Ron continued
There are some posters on this forum that will do ALL they can to continue the DIVIDED states of america.



Thank goodness you are not one of those people!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 11:09am PT
Crimpie,, on Que,, here are two of those types i just mentioned.^^^^^^^^
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Nov 9, 2012 - 11:10am PT
Your average republican or conservative doesnt listen to Beck Limbaaagh or any of the other slingers

14 million people listen to Limbaugh.

Note the composition of this list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-listened-to_radio_programs#Popular_radio_shows_in_the_United_States

There are a helluva lot of Republicans listening to the "slingers."

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 11:19am PT
I know many. Not one thinks beck or laambaaghh is worth a nickle.


Is this where im supposed to point out all the dem propagandists?? Is this where im supposed to say all the dems drink coolaid?? Is this where i say what DocF has said before here that ALL DEMS SHOULD JUST DIE including me?

you never see that crap from me. I, because i dont go with the group here, become on instant target whenever i post to these topics. Yet i dont go on a stupid insult binge like many do here.. It would be easy shpeasy to do.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Nov 9, 2012 - 11:19am PT
While I'm relieved that Romney didn't make it to office, you have to admit - Obama signing an extension of the Patriot act, the NDAA, shutting down state medical Marijuana dispenseries that were legal (putting thousands of law-abiding citizens in jail for YEARS)... what the f*#k?!?



always lingering in the back of almost every flag waving american - and that includes those of a fairly reasonable disposition - is the paranoia that Obama actually is an American hating socialist / muslim / black panther. It is an ingrained impulse, and not altogether unhealthy so long as more rational thoughts prevail. The thing is, he had a short leash on a lot of things if he wanted to thread the needle to a second term, which is critical.

Anyway no need to keep pretending he actually loves america now. Time to let his freak flag fly baby! Telling is that after years of silence he actually said "Warming Climate" in his acceptance speech..... to gasps from the crowd!

The anti christ is back
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 11:21am PT
NDAA = Hitlers own policies. FAKKT....
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 11:25am PT
I am keeping up my promise to bring opinions to my politicians. This mornings letter to them explained the NDAA and ive asked that they all defeat this proposed law NOW. Ive told them that in no way shape or form shall they "take" any one i know without due process, and if they think they will, gun sales are at an all time high, as is ammo.

The day that military tribunals are in charge on the citizenry is the day when at least 50% of america is dead.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 9, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
Yep I do not understand why this has not been a bigger deal so far.

NDAA and the "PATRIOT" act are Fascist. Not in some tinfoil conspiracy whackjob way. It's the real deal.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
Each president for quite some time now had added to "executive powers" and this is another in a long line of constitutional infringements via executive power.. But the 2013 proposal goes far beyond those in the past. How ANY politician would be for such is an clear indicator of government out of control. Who here will be the first to be labelled "belligerent" ? Are they going to EXPAND gitmo to house the 50% of america whom doesnt agree with the powers that be?

Lets look at countrys that have been or are being controlled by military tribunals of a sort.

Japan?

Russia?

China?

N Korea?

Natzi Germany?

When all you have to do is be "belligerent" to be hauled away w/o due process for indefinite amounts of time, the govt will be acting as the biggest domestic enemy ever conceived. Write your congressional reps and your Senators. And make it quite clear as to what you think about this.


Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
I failed to mention this was all part of the Defense bill,, sneakily attached- as to not draw attention from the public. Like always.

Doesnt matter which side of a coin your on,, this proposal is ludicrous by ANYONES standards.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 9, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
Joe- he's cracking about Illegal Iranian Nazi immigrant gangbangers from benghazi...and Compton invading the res with taxidermied drone cat copters.


Mono-Yes!!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 9, 2012 - 03:17pm PT
400+ posts to a thread about a type of buggy that's now rarely seen. Wow!
Credit: internetz
What's next, a thread about pennyfarthings?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 03:28pm PT
Bummer there isn't a forum somewhere that could be searched for Ron's outrage prior to 2008.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 03:30pm PT
Yeah,Riley, its a costly thing building and flying those though! Markets are down there too.




But heres an article telling that Obama doesn think the 2013 law has enough teeth in it!


http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/11618-obama-threatens-veto-of-ndaa-2013-too-many-restrictions-on-his-exclusive-authority

and now the language of the act:
So as to not have the Act run into the same legal trouble the 2012 version did, the US House included sections 1031 through 1033, which strike the right of habeas corpus and the Constitutional right of due process for American citizens. Within those sections include references to a federal appeals court decision and a Supreme Court ruling that affirm the Constitutional rights of American citizens.[1] However, there are already criticisms of the Act, especially with regard to a "readiness" and funding for an attack on Iran.[6]
Criticism has also been voiced regarding section 1033 of the bill which would state that nothing in the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40) or the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 (Public Law 112-81) shall be construed to deny the availability of the writ of habeas corpus in a court ordained or established by or under Article III of the Constitution for any person who is detained in the United States pursuant to the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40).[7]
Joe Wolverton noted that the 2013 NDAA does nothing to prevent the indefinite detention of Americans under the 2013 NDAA, but it only reiterates that habeas corpus is a right in courts established under Article III of the Constitution. "That such a right exists in the courts of the United States has never been the issue. The concern of millions of Americans from every band in the political spectrum is that Americans detained as “belligerents” under the terms of the NDAA will not be tried in Article III courts, but will be subject to military tribunals such as the one currently considering the case of the so-called “Gitmo Five.”"[8



Note the phrase regarding upcoming attacks on Iran. Interesting pre-planning of the budget to INCLUDE that..



edit H, not surprising at all, as for millions of americans that have stood idly by, things get tough and that makes them want to become more involved.

I hardly participated in any forums until about then anyhow.(Never owned a computer until the end of 2007). Im one who would have been happy as a clam w/o a computer, but being a business, its a required evil. Unsure of your angle there . Hope this provides you some background.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 03:52pm PT
Are you guys reading that ^^^?

And apparently it doesnt have ENOUGh teeth for Obama..ZOIKS! Ok,, Im an american by blood and birth. I HAVE constitutional rights. I know what those are and know this proposed law is 1000% against those said rights.

Who could this affect? Gun owners for one, those with FFL licenses, those that participate in FORUMS, those that participate in any protests, or any one with ill opinions of the powers that be..They almost have the coral fences built around us sheep.

So tell me whos for this sort of a law??
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
ahem,,,,pre-planning the budget to INCLUDE an ATTACK on Iran....






food,,, fer thought....I KNOW how the gubbment works,, once theres money in the budget, you WILL spend it- so we "get more" the next budget..Govt budget 101...
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
crickets??
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 9, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
Riley

There has been terrorism in the USA since the first days of the constitution and will continue forever.

Look up the history of terrorist acts.

It is not an excuse for the loss of civil liberties.

Infact it is spitting on the sacrifice of over 1 Million Americans. (if you count confederate soldiers)

Liberty or Death

froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
Certainly not me Ron. But I would remind you that the most vigorous and consistent opposition to abuses of executive power, no matter who is sitting in the Oval Office, comes from groups like the ACLU which I'm guessing you regard with contempt (correct me if I'm wrong). That is one area that I find genuine differences between those who identify as Democrats vs. those who identify as Republicans. When Bush was shoving through the Patriot act (not to mention the extralegal actions Bush and crew engaged in) there was nary an objection to it from the right. Indeed, anyone who questioned it was labeled a traitor by the right.

I think the left has a pretty good record of opposing things like this no matter who is pushing it.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
No,, there was objection to many parts of the original patriot act, but they were quickly dismissed, as both parties seek the extension of executive powers. That is obvious per the 2013 proposal.


We have a working system for terrorism UNDER the military laws and tribunals, as they are acts of war. The Citizenry should NEVER be subjected to military law.

What about Montana, a state with gun laws in direct conflict with fed requirements? Is everyone there going to be labelled a " belligerent"? How about the PRESS??? Where exactly could this lead to 10 or twenty years down the road? want that for your kids?


FYI many slain govt types in Libya yesterday- riots and killings by different factions at HQs of the "governing" party. A jihad free for all if you will. sad..
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
Maybe you missed the part where I said I opposed it ;-)

So let me be more explicit...

I oppose any legislation that subverts due process. I oppose the expansions in executive power that the last decade has brought. I oppose imprisonment without judicial review, indefinite detention and extralegal killing and have consistently. That is why I support groups like the ACLU and EFF.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
EFF seems well intended as does the ACLU yet it has become to politically entrenched imho. Now of course,, will these groups be dissapearing in 2013?(EFF)

To truly enforce such laws against "belligerents", they will have to include the internet..
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 04:40pm PT
What about Montana, a state with gun laws in direct conflict with fed requirements? Is everyone there going to be labelled a " belligerent"?

Montanans have always been belligerent, In fact, the original Montanans - the Blackfeet and Crow were belligerent as hell and the whole Salishan Nation of tribes thought they were total bad asses.

I personally think we need "border protection" up there and ought to wall the whole state off.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
EFF seems well intended as does the ACLU yet it has become to politically entrenched imho.

That could be because they work solely on political issues.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 04:45pm PT
they may come H! Border checks at every entrance...We joke now. But we also know how things work, and what is accepted today is surpassed three fold by the next. We accepted the idea of deficits and now look.

We CAN NOT accept the NDAA proposals one teensie bit. If it goes through impeachment proceedings should be next for whomever sits in office.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
Dang Riley,, that last sentence spells a certain naive attitude to the plain english within the NDAA. It does NOT use the term terrorist but rather a reclassification of "belligerents"...


BELLIGERENTS??


If you dont think some powers are being forced upon citizens,, why do you think Ted Nugent was silent after the HS/SS visit? Anyone thought about that? Its not if you like or dislike him, its whats for breakfast...



Riley if they didnt give a shyt the NDAA wouold not be. This has been a long time trend by every president..And Riley,, i did indeed have issues with bush and did not vote for him twice..Get your facts straight before falsifying info...
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 05:02pm PT
Yes and got visited by the SS, and then was silent for the rest of the election.. It made the news even. I found that "odd".. That "smells" of something. He hasnt said squat about it his website either. "odd" again..

I know a taxidermist who had an HS helicopter land in his parking lot with a fully battle geared team to arrest him over two salted turkey skins from mexico. TRUE STORY. HOMELAND security at work.....

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
So Ron, then you'd be for closing gitmo, bringing them to the states, and letting the Uyghurs go? You do know about the Uyghurs, right? The muslims who weren't fighting us, but that we have jailed without a trail on behalf of the Chinese government.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 05:07pm PT
Im talking of CITIZENS here H...The constitution coves Us , not terrorists involved in acts of war. They are in essence jihad soldiers - that would be a more apt description.


Riley that is a FACT, true 1000%. A sting set up by USFWS and HS to arrest a good guy over two imported from mexico-turkey skins that had a PAPER work glitch...A Blackhawk, a battle geared team, zip ties the whole shebang...I swear on my parents graves... Hows that.


I was involved in one of the biggest cases against a taxidermist ever waged by the USFWS- Mike Boyce of Animal artistry, and in the end after two years of proceedings they "got him" for a MISDEMEANOR paper work infraction. They spent MILLIONS on the prosecution all for a lousy thousand dollar fine...I was doing birds for him at the time and was inspected by FED officers at 800 pm on a sunday evening. They went through my freezers, my shop, my storage, my house, my records...
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 05:15pm PT
Ron,

The Bill of Rights covers everyone, not just US citizens (as do many international treaties we are signatory to).

Oh, and timely, the latest EFF newsletter just appeared in my inbox...


Dear Friend of Digital Freedom,

As 2012 comes to a close, I've been reflecting on the relentless series of campaigns, publications, and cases in which the dedicated lawyers, technologists, and activists of the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) have engaged in service of a better, freer digital future. With help from supporters like you, we've been able to accomplish so much.

The year started off perilously as we fought back a pair of dangerous Internet censorship bills (popularly known as SOPA and PIPA) backed by copyright maximalists. EFF played a critical role during the day-long website blackout protest by Google, Wikipedia, and others, as millions of Internet users were referred to EFF's website for an explanation of the dangers and an opportunity to take action. Nearly two million emails were sent through EFF's action center to let Congress know how you felt, and together we were able to successfully de-rail the legislation.


As the year progressed, EFF's legal team continued to fight against all sorts of threats to your freedom. We carried on with our battle against the U.S. government’s warrantless wiretapping program. We filed briefs against unauthorized government GPS location tracking and drone surveillance, bogus copyright and patent infringement lawsuits, and the overbroad seizure of data stored with third party providers. We fought for fair use and the rights of innovators and service providers. We promoted the use of open wireless networks and won renewal of your right to jailbreak your cell phone.


EFF's international and tech teams sought to protect activists, bloggers and journalists throughout the world who were being censored and arrested. We created guides and technology tools to help people protect themselves and their communications. Our browser plugin for Firefox and Chrome, HTTPS Everywhere, helped over 2.5 million users secure their communications from eavesdropping and other security threats.

Looking forward, however, there is still so much to be done. EFF is moving into a new building, where we'll be continuing some old fights and preparing for some new ones. The threats to freedom and innovation keep on coming, and EFF is ready to continue to fight for your rights.

But we can't continue do it without your help.

If you've already given to EFF this year, thank you for your support. If you haven't, or if you have the ability to give a little more, please consider making a donation today.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 05:18pm PT
NOT those that act as jihad soldiers... They are in a WAR against us. Therefore they fall under military tribunal which should be the case.


Just because they blend or look like a raggedy ass army doesnt mean they arent exaclty that. Im relatively SURE those fighting would agree. Im sure The two Badasses on the roof top in libya thought the same as well.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 05:23pm PT
It WAS over several dead cattle egrets that were transferred to Boyce as a gift from a florida zoo- they had died in a sudden freeze. there was Office of Veterinary papers that needed to accompany them and in the end THAT is the only thing they "got " anyone on.

They were not sold or bartered in any way. They were under legal possession permits of the zoo. They were legal to mount and display not for sale.


And Riley,, those migratory bird acts are ancient.. We destroy more protected wildlife acorss the country on roadways in a year than five years of commercial hunting back then...That is all wasted as it rots beside the roadway acting as bait for predators and scavengers to then get hit.

edit: The #1 problem of the sage grouse population decline is RAVENS and the fact they have been protected to vigorously and are now shot on sight by govt trappers.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 05:26pm PT
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Supreme Court said Friday it will consider eliminating the government's chief weapon against racial discrimination at polling places since the 1960s.

What a coincidence! Nothing 'activist' about that whatsoever (which four justices could possibly have voted for that), is there. The assault on minorities continues - the right just doesn't get it. And on the heels of an election that saw more voting rights violations in recent memory.

They think this is going to help them, but in reality it's just sending the message to minorities that they aren't welcome and those minorities are going to respond by voting in ever stronger numbers in order to tell these guys to go f*#k themselves.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
Any more than that on it?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
Riley im VERY familiar with the MIG bird acts and its ramifications and good points, it was once needed. Now In Canada anyone can pick up- an eagle , owl, Jay or any other such road killed specimen, take it to the nearest wildlife facility and get a permit to posses it-- no waste.
And you wrong about Sage grouse,, habitat damage is equal to the damage ravens do- the leks are all on their routes and they are one of the few birds able to identify them on a nest from the air.. This according to NDOW biologists now working on the problems the grouse face.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
U*nsure abou that Riley- i know lots of Canadian taxidermists, they all do protected species as a norm. They are examined at the Wildlife office when getting the permit. Same thing could be done here- I turn down folks ALL the time that call wanting something the picked up off the road mounted, and 10 times out of 10 i have to tell them about the laws and the fact the must throw the specimen away. Makes me ill when i drive by a freshly hit western tanager on the side of the road...I would make it my next competition piece.


Most other countries,, the UK,, Africa etc etc one can obtain and legally posses many of the species there. America is among the very strictest- which leads to kills anyhow every year due to depredation on crops etc.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 9, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
Dood they mount TONS of golden, balds, snowy owls falcons etc etc.. Eagles are common for them to mount for customers up there. Kid yu knott. All with official wildlife permits attached.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 9, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
This nation has faced Annihilation. Facing annihilation was it's birth pains.. A man said Give Me Liberty or Give me death.

A nation was born of the SUPERTOPO Motto

Yer gonna DIE!

I grew up knowing that at any moment the Warheads could bloom and Humans would die by the BILLIONS and if we were lucky we would pick ourselves up again....

IN THE STONE-AGE


And now this pathetic leadership wants me to fear Terrorists like Osama???

ARE YOU F*#KING KIDDING ME?

WTF are they gonna do.. get a nuke and blow up a million folks who ARE GONNAA DIE ANYWAY?????????


F*#K ALL THOSE WHO TAKE OUR FREEEEEEEEEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LIBERTY OR DEATH




mrtropy

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Nov 9, 2012 - 09:06pm PT
I am a Democrat and I vote.

Students and I
Students and I
Credit: mrtropy
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 9, 2012 - 09:11pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Freedom!

America









Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Nov 9, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
Canada the country is practically empty except for along the border
we got lots of animals, few humans ... we got our priorities straight
photo not found
Missing photo ID#273197
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 9, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
Malemute! Re your mention:

we got lots of animals, few humans ... we got our priorities straight


You folks are doing great. We are the fuked up nation!
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 10, 2012 - 10:50am PT
The 'Nuge is a f*#king pshycho but I absolutely approve of his lifestyle when it come to having a sustainable food source... for a freaky fukin dude, he has his priorities straight in hunting and game.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 10, 2012 - 11:06am PT

I know a taxidermist who had an HS helicopter land in his parking lot with a fully battle geared team to arrest him over two salted turkey skins from mexico. TRUE STORY. HOMELAND security at work.....


I call Bullsh#t, not by you, but by your taxi buddy.

I mean, does this sound even remotely credible?

Of course not.

Degaine

climber
Nov 10, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
FYI climbski2,

That photo of the mountains is not in the US but on the Italian side of the Mont Blanc Range, in the photo are the Noire de Peuterey, the Blanche de Peuterey, and in the wee way background you can make out the Matterhorn and Monte Rosa behind that.

Great photo and a fantastic place to climb.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 10, 2012 - 12:20pm PT
We want Plaid States and Polka Dot States.  I'm a Plaid Climber.
We want Plaid States and Polka Dot States. I'm a Plaid Climber.
Credit: Steven Walstead
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 10, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
Degaine

That photo of the mountains is not in the US but on the Italian side of the Mont Blanc Range

Yeah I realized that but I like Jon Griffiths photo so much i left it there anyway. Freedom
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Nov 10, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
Ha! Climbski2 posted a photo with the caption 'America!!!', and it was the Alps.

Strong work.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 10, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
same trick can be played on repukes using the language on the patriot act…..

not sure what this proves… oh, wait… you're a publicon reactionary… Now it makes sense that it is all pointless.

Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Nov 10, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
Interesting. I saw the photo and thought his point was about freedom, not necessarily where the mountain range was.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 10, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
Vive la liberte!
http://pacific-standard.blogspot.com/2011_03_27_archive.html
http://pacific-standard.blogspot.com/2011_03_27_archive.html
Credit: mouse from merced
FFFFFF
RRRRRR
EEEEEE
EEEEEE
DDDDDD
OOOOOO
MMMMMM
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 10, 2012 - 05:15pm PT
Dirt
"I call Bullsh#t, not by you, but by your taxi buddy.

I mean, does this sound even remotely credible?

Of course not."




Bushiit that its bulshiit....That HAPPENED. Pure FAKKT. As did the huge case i was involved in that the feds spent over a million on and got 1000.00 fine back in the end. If it didnt happen, im not a taxidermist nor have i ever climbed.
It was a sting operation by USFWS and due to the international boundary's, HS was included..There were others that were targeted but were warned by the Vets service or problems and they had the shipments held in customs. This sort of thing goes on frequently in dealing in the importation of wildlife. FREQUENTLY.

About every two weeks or so i have someone call wanting a hawk or an owl mounted. Often times these are agents looking for easy kills. Each call gets the same speech about illegal possession of protected species and i recommend they call their local Wildlife office to see if they want it. Otherwise they can not posses even the feathers from protected species legally, without a permit from state or fed agencies.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 10, 2012 - 06:28pm PT
Karl Rove and his buddies spent many many millions on their superPac,
and got right next to nobody elected!
BWA HA HA hahahahahahahaaaaaa!!!!!!

Just yer average 'publicans.....
dirtbag

climber
Nov 10, 2012 - 06:59pm PT
Bushiit that its bulshiit....That HAPPENED. Pure FAKKT.

That story is as real as the jackalopes he is creating to fleece tourists.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 10, 2012 - 07:24pm PT
whatever you think is up to you Dirt. Dont care if you believe it or not really. I dont know you so you thinking im a liar is right up their with my worry about michelle obamas dress she will wear to the next bash..


Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 10, 2012 - 07:28pm PT
your average democrat thought romney would go to war with Iran,,

so they voted for obama, who happened to include in the NDAA 2013 proposal the pre-planning of budgets to INCLUDE an attack on Iran...
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Nov 10, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
He got it on Fox News. It must be fair and balanced.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 10, 2012 - 09:07pm PT
Try wikipedia,,,NDAA 2013....
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 10, 2012 - 09:09pm PT
allow me.


 as to not have the Act run into the same legal trouble the 2012 version did, the US House included sections 1031 through 1033, which strike the right of habeas corpus and the Constitutional right of due process for American citizens. Within those sections include references to a federal appeals court decision and a Supreme Court ruling that affirm the Constitutional rights of American citizens.[1] However, there are already criticisms of the Act, especially with regard to a "readiness" and funding for an attack on Iran.[6]
Criticism has also been voiced regarding section 1033 of the bill which would state that nothing in the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40) or the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 (Public Law 112-81) shall be construed to deny the availability of the writ of habeas corpus in a court ordained or established by or under Article III of the Constitution for any person who is detained in the United States pursuant to the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40).[7]
Joe Wolverton noted that the 2013 NDAA does nothing to prevent the indefinite detention of Americans under the 2013 NDAA, but it only reiterates that habeas corpus is a right in courts established under Article III of the Constitution. "That such a right exists in the courts of the United States has never been the issue. The concern of millions of Americans from every band in the political spectrum is that Americans detained as “belligerents” under the terms of the NDAA will not be tried in Article III courts, but will be subject to military tribunals such as the one currently considering the case of the so-called “Gitmo Five.”"[8]
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 10, 2012 - 09:17pm PT
Give it a rest Ron....you're boy, his party and his politics lost. America has changed....white boys have a say, of course, but it does appear to have been greatly diminished...ha, ha, ha!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 10, 2012 - 09:19pm PT
HUH?? i didnt really know the NDAA had anything to do with color..

This is a law EVERY citizen no matter your color, race, creed, religion, or affiliation should be squarely against.
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Nov 10, 2012 - 09:20pm PT
Easy Ron, we can see the froth on your mouth.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 10, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
cocky for someone not even aware of the NDAA law proposals.. How bout that pre-planning for an attack on Iran.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 10, 2012 - 09:48pm PT
Looks like Billary will be stepping down here shortly,, taking the fall for obama and benghazi..













YEAH  I JUST TOOK IT UP THE BUM DRY FROM MAH BOSS>>>>
YEAH I JUST TOOK IT UP THE BUM DRY FROM MAH BOSS>>>>
Credit: Ron Anderson



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/9612864/Hillary-Clinton-attempts-to-draw-fire-from-Barack-Obama-with-Benghazi-admission.html

that fizzle you hear is her chances of any more big politics..
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 10, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
QITNL

climber
Nov 10, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
Ron, your Hillary article was written on Oct 16. Today is Nov 10, if you haven't noticed.

Your bum must be getting a little sore with all the crap you've been pulling out of it lately. Why don't you give it a rest for a little while.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 10, 2012 - 10:23pm PT
Ron just can't let go of the bullshit lies he & his Party created in a pathetic attempt to put their slimebag into office.

Example: 'Hillary was thrown under the bus by Obama'.

You are so convinced this fallacy is true, that you've created Chapter II of this lie: that Hillary is stepping down from her SOS position because she's pissed off at Obama about Libya.

Nevermind the fact that Hillary announced she would not continue as SOS months before Libya.

Kool-aid. Stop the guzzling, Ron.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 10, 2012 - 10:31pm PT





donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado

Nov 10, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
Give it a rest Ron....you're boy, his party and his politics lost. America has changed....white boys have a say, of course, but it does appear to have been greatly diminished...ha, ha, ha!

WOW! THIS IS WRONG IN SO MANY WAYS!

Any respect I had for you as a climber just went out the window!
I thought you were a bigger man than this show of bigotry.
But I guess I really don't know you