Your average Democrat

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couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 29, 2012 - 12:38pm PT
LOL

[Click to View YouTube Video]
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 29, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
"New thread for the other side, have at it."

It's been done.

Over and over and over and over and over. Yawn.

Doesn't do anything but piss people off as it bumps more TR's and climbing-related material down.

Have at it.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 29, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
I'm guessing you're an expert on "Average."
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 29, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
That's it..! I'm voting for Romney...How could Obama trick us into thinking that he is liberal...?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Oct 29, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
Speaking of a typical Repugnican....

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
Hey, they got yer picture here:

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
shut the f*#k up . you racist . lying , hater....
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
SLR, I guarantee that guy has enough food and supplies to last a year. He probably doesn't give a sh*t about FEMA. He lives out on property because he likes privacy.


That's the worst meme ever, if that's how Libtards think, then they hold the name truly well.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
Bring out the pepper-spray. I hear them liberal type don't like it.

Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
^^^
Nice role model there Michaeld. Chubby probably lives out on there by himself because he's an anti-social paranoid who's incapable of getting along with others not like himself. No wonder he's a Republican.
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
Hey...

Wait a second here. First of all not "everyone" in "each party" is such a fanatic idiot.

I am a Democrat married to a Republican. We agree not to agree and... We actually do agree on a few things.

We are both...

Pro gun.
Believe in the right to choose when it comes to abortion.
Anti death penalty because it actually cost the state more to have folks in death row, (appeals, etc.)
We both hate Obama care. It does not regulate insurance companies and they are the one's making health care so outrageously expensive in the first place.
We both agree we need a better health system that provides to all, just not this one.
etc. etc.


In the end, we just want a better life and we are all Americans.


michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
Anastasia, what if Death Row meant they had 1 year to appeal their case before Execution?


Nice role model there Michaeld. Chubby probably lives out on there by himself because he's an anti-social paranoid who's incapable of getting along with others not like himself. No wonder he's a Republican.

Role Model? No. Just a person who believes in his rights. Do you? Probably not. You only care when they affect you directly.

Fat Dad, do you only climb at the gym because there are people there so you can be social? He probably lives out there because he lives in a small community and they have a lot of land per house. What's wrong with owning land?

Your fat, I take it, because your name.

Paranoid? Because he has an American flag? Or a Shotgun?

This country is failing because morons like you. No pride in anything but what you want as a (ignorant) person, not the principles on which this country was founded on.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
I must have hit a nerve Michael because you seem very butt hurt over a caustic response to your caustic posting. If you can't cope with rebuttals to your contributions, sarcastic or not, you may want to get some thicker skin or stay away from the keyboard.

A couple of quick points: not fat, dislike the gym and know my rights (as described in the Constitution and Bills of Rights) very well (better than most), and believe that people can more or less live wherever they want, though the choice of where to live can tell alot more about you then you might think. Sorry, but fat dude screaming while waving the flag and a shotgun while someone takes his pictures says nothing about "rights". It's only a poseur moment for the fat dude with a shotgun who believes he's making some statement that clearly brought a tear to your eye. If you believe there's content there then I suggest you're the one in need of study, not me. Sorry you're so guillable.

BTW, Anatasia, nice post. We should all respond as intelligently as you.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
I can't remembeer a harder belly laugh than I just had, except for some Friday night drunken posting sh#t, which is never as funny, really, as lampooning political asswipes.

My name's Rollie Finger-pointer, and I am voting on the Athletic ticket. You do not remember me. You do not remember me. You do not remember me. You do not remember me. You do not remember me.


"OK, I know when my finger's licked."--Mouse said that
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
Sadly there have been a few folks on death row that after years of waiting to die, were later proven to be innocent. Our system is set up to prevent innocent men from dying and in theory would rather let a criminal be free. We want those folks wrongly jailed to have every chance to prove that. Yes, it does cost us way too much but imagine if you were that person, the one that actually was put away wrongly... This is the moral dilemma we try to rectify by allowing appeals. Goes by the motto, "innocent until proven guilty without doubt."

Good or bad, it's part of who we are.

AFS
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
The people claiming to be democrats on that other thread give democrats a bad name.

Hey dumbasses. Did you look at the US debt when Obama took office? under 10 trillion. It's over 16 trillion currently and on a trajectory that withstands understanding by any rational soul. Watch it for 20 seconds or so to see yer guy at work and understand that you are dooming the country's future.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Yeah, I know your response: "IT'S BUSHES FAULT"....it would be funny if it wasn't so painful.
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
Personally, I would not mind that. But alas... I respect the law above most things... I say most things because if I catch anyone hurting my son, abusing him in any way... I will not be sane. Nope... These are some powerful instincts.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
You're right, Anastasia. It's a part of who we are.

There was a time when every felony was punishable (and punished) by hanging. I thank God that is no longer true, because my date with the gallows would have taken place several years ago.

Now, in contrast, we have such a revulsion against intentional killing that we bend over backwards to make sure that we, as a society, don't do it to our prisoners. Even then, we still can get it wrong.

I sometimes wonder which is the greater number: those wrongly on death row, or those killed because a prisoner who, in earlier years, would have been executed was released. It could well be the latter, but I think that most members of society are more appalled at the prospect of the former.

John
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
Re the debt increase, here's some commentary from Politicfact.org. In short, over 50% of the debt increase is the result of Bush era tax cuts, the same policy that Romney will continue:
First, the bottom-line number on the debt: Yes, it has grown by $5 trillion during Obama’s tenure. Total debt has increased by $5.5 trillion since January 20, 2009, while the share of that debt held by the public has increased by $5 trillion.

But it’s not entirely correct to hang that increase on "Obama’s spending" alone.

In our previous item, we looked at calculations by the Treasury Department based on data from the Congressional Budget Office, the independent number-crunching arm of Congress.

To figure out what caused the accumulation of deficits over the past decade, CBO tracked the surplus it had projected back in 2001 and compared it with the actual cumulative deficits that resulted instead. CBO specifically broke out how much several laws contributed to the deficit, some of which started under Bush and some under Obama.

Because American Crossroads was only referring to the debt added during Obama’s tenure, we only looked at fiscal years 2009, 2010 and 2011. And because the American Crossroads ad does not reference how much the deficits fell below the surpluses that had been forecast by CBO, we’re going to exclude from our calculations a category CBO called its own "failures to predict economic conditions accurately."

We added up the lost revenue and additional spending each year and then calculated their percentage of the deficits over those three years.

Spending

Spending initiated by Bush policies: 4 percent of total deficits in 2009, 2010 and 2011
Spending initiated by Obama policies: 11 percent
Other increases in discretionary spending: 32 percent
Other increases in mandatory spending: 6 percent

Revenue reductions

Revenue reductions initiated by Bush policies: 11 percent
Revenue reductions initiated by Obama policies: 13 percent
Other unclassified revenue reductions: 5 percent

Interest

Net interest: 19 percent

The spending increases traceable to programs clearly attributable to Obama, combined with the increase in discretionary spending on his watch, account for about 43 percent of the three years worth of deficits.

So if you’re talking about what "drove us $5 trillion deeper in debt," then a clear majority stemmed from sources other than "Obama’s spending."

If you expand the definition from "Obama’s spending" to "Obama’s spending and tax cuts," you get to a total of 56 percent. Throw in 13 percentage points for the added interest costs of Obama’s policies and you’re at 69 percent.

Our ruling

The American Crossroads ad claims that "Obama’s spending drove us $5 trillion deeper in debt."

But not all of the $5 trillion can be attributed to Obama's spending. Much of it can be attributed to his tax cuts and the policies of President Bush. On balance, we rate the claim Half True.
Be careful what you wish for.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:01pm PT





Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:09pm PT
Personally, I think anyone wanting this mess of being President is either a egomaniac or an idealist. There is no sane, rational person who would desire this kind of "no way to win," situation.

Yes, I dislike both candidates for very different and solid reasons. Neither of them impress me. Plus... No matter what, there is no quick fix. One, it's a BIG mess. Two, we are too engorged with a very slow moving government, We have too much bureaucratic red tape to get anything done. We are screwed so... My attitude is since I am screwed, I might as well enjoy the show.

Carry on folks. All the mud slinging is at least pointlessly entertaining.

AFS
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
Storm Warning!!

Everyone in the path of Hurricane Sandy should head immediately for the shelter of their third or fourth home.--I'm just plain old Mitt Romney, just an above-average political hack, and I approve this disguised campaign message

Warren Harding used every photo opp that came his way.

He was just your average Valley climber.

He never felt the need to tell vast lies like our recent Republican prexy.

Or drive anything better than a Corvette.

There are no average anythings, Couch Patty.

"Recrimination is painless" on the internet. I love it like I loved M*A*S*H.

"The Major happens to be the Korean distributor for crapola."--Hawkeye
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
And the New Democratic Party is not much like the Old Democratic Party. The old party was at least a party of unions -- practical-minded people. Obama has reshaped the Democratic Party into his own image -- an antiwar intellectual semi-professor. The New Democratic Party is the Nation magazine with candidates.

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
Re the debt increase, here's some commentary from Politicfact.org. In short, over 50% of the debt increase is the result of Bush era tax cuts, the same policy that Romney will continue:

Lets just start calling them the Obama tax cuts for the rich since Obama and the democrats in the house and senate decided to extend them and not let them expire had they done nothing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_tax_cuts. Regardless, I suspect we are not in disagreement on that.

Coming up, "Taxmageddon":
"In February 2012, the term "Taxmageddon" was coined by Congressional aides to refer to December 31, 2012, the date of the expected implementation of government spending reductions and expiration of a large number of tax cuts, many of which are the tax cuts enacted under George W. Bush and extended by President Obama.[52][53] "

And the Bush blame game continues. (I give Bush some of this blame too) At least you'll have a new disaster to blame on Bush......We need to cut government spending: specifically reducing our military footprint.


SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Oct 29, 2012 - 06:12pm PT

The original Republican salute!!!!

wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny,sawdust does not work like chalk
Oct 29, 2012 - 07:49pm PT
we the people,..........americans turning their backs on other americans,.....sustainable.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
I don't think President Obama is responsible for the deaths and disaster of the attack of our embassy in Libya. He shouldn't even have been near to the decision making process on that kind of thing. In fact, if you put it in perspective, they are still trying to see and say what caused the Indian/Chinese conflict 50 years later:

http://claudearpi.blogspot.com/2012/04/why-henderson-brooks-report-has-never.html

Good read.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
Yeah, I know your response: "IT'S BUSHES FAULT"....it would be funny if it wasn't so painful.

It would be funny if it weren't so true. And you think McCain would have done anything different? Not. Those cards were already long dealt by the time the president took office - any president.


You can't put three trillion dollars worth of Neocon pre-emptive wars on the national credit card and expect it to take less than a decade to climb out of the shitter. Anyone thinking this is Obama's fault because he couldn't turn W's trajectory around in one term is utterly delusional. Attempting to have done so would have instantly put us into a deep depression.

In reality our debt situation is courtesy of Reagan/Bush Sr/W militarism.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 11:49pm PT
he claimed LOUDLY he would cut them in HALF in his first term..

Cut whom in half Ron?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
He claimed a lot of things that haven't come true. Again, you think McCain / Palin campaign promises would have stacked up better with the economic hand that was already dealt? Not a chance - no one is turning this around in less than a decade and that's only if we stay out of significant military conflicts that long.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
It turns out Apogee is correct.

NOW HEAR THIS:

Abandon ship. This thread's not gonna reach the other shore.
See you on November 5th, suckers.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:03am PT
Suck it, righties!

bit'er ol' guy

climber
the past
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:24am PT
Wow......really, really lame.

stupid americans debate.

youtube clips presented as fact.

you can blame the political parties

but it's the blind dumbass followers like you

who waste your time sucking up this kind of vile media spew

until your so high on anger you spit it out as gospel without a second thought.

your being played.

we're being played!

your average american watches too much T.V.

drinks too much, smokes too much and waste thier money on useless crap.

sure buy a big ass gas guzzeling truck on credit

then whine about gas prices....

buy some more lottery tickets.....

then blame all your problems on.......the gubberment.

if you got any game at all, it shouldn't matter whothefcukthe president is.





mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Oct 30, 2012 - 05:47am PT
A few questions (hopefully answered by the posters on this thread).

1)The Iraq War wasn't fully accounted for in the debt or the budget by former President Bush when President Obama took office he accounted for it thus increasing the debt under his watch. My question is should he have not counted this in the budget or the debt?

2)The Federal Reserve (central bank)prints our currency. Each dollar is printed with interest attached to it. Our founding father's opposed central banking for this reason (among others). My question is do you support the Federal Reserve (central bank) system and why?

I look forward to well thought out and honest responses.

Thanks Eric
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 30, 2012 - 06:38am PT
I'm with Romney - let each state print their own money.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 30, 2012 - 06:43am PT
Money is the root of all politics.

Politics depends on it, or the system won't work.

Too much dumped in one side still doesn't guarantee a win.

And IMO the average Dem probably sees this and is repelled by the idea that a person might be elected who does believe this.

You know who 'They" are/is.

As to question one, IMO, the budget. It is likely (correct me if I'm wrong) that the budget would not support a war. But it's likely, too, that Congress would snipe the budgeteers.

But why add to the debt? That would really be bad news for the next generation. Not the kind of legacy I wish to leave.

Answer to number two: I don't trust the Fed. I did not say I support them, either. It's all we have for now. It is a glacial process, certainly, to make basic, sweeping changes in a financial system run by one single board and entrenched over many years.

However, we live in a United States. We use the same currency and our inflation rate in the last 50-60 years is (by one estimate, at least) the highest in a long while. The inflation of the units of currency here in the USA is around 600% since the founding of the Federal Reserve.

I emphatically do not trust that panel to provide the answer to this question. And I have no clue as to whether certain men are honest politicans. You vote and you take your chances to do so.
Others, like Mitt, make it easier for me, at leat, to choose.

I would not vote for a man on money issues, but he who has no job is all about mney. See how gullible I am?


philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 06:48am PT
Here is your "Average Democrat" Couch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_i1T87CLdg&feature=sharehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_i1T87CLdg&feature=share


Far more above average than any of you TeaBaglicant.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 30, 2012 - 06:52am PT
Our monetary system is fine, the real problem with our financial system is the percentage of it which has been moved 'off the books' into un- or under-regulated markets.
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Oct 30, 2012 - 11:46am PT
This is the USA public debt:
This is the monetary base:
This is the foreign debt:
This is real money:
Finally when those first 3 charts start to unwind towards the end of the next Obama adminstration you can expect even this doctored chart to reach for vertical...
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
How much came from being transparent about the real costs of Bush & Chenney's two illegal wars?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
The fact that Ron can't do simple math from a chart says plenty.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
Average Republicans,
below average Americans.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
Truth hurts Ron.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
Yawnnnn.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:37pm PT
BTW Ron, Obama promised to cut the DEFICIT in half, not the national DEBT.

Do you know the difference?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:37pm PT
Well I don't know Ron, Illuminate me, what am I?
You wouldn't know a fact if it bit you.

And for the record here is my whole quote.

And for the record both Lynn and Jim did remarkable climbs. But Bridwell is an angry burned out husk. Lynn is still a upbeat active and vital person making a contribution to the world around her.
Please dispute with your inside info facts.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
You criticizing and critiquing Obama snort, chuckle, guffaw.
Suffering as you do from false equivalencies you just don't get it do you?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
"There's no shortage of their kind in the politically bluest parts of California. Liberals so freaked out about the prospect of President Obama losing his re-election bid that they can't sleep at night."

"...one of President Obama's top campaign strategists, has a word for supporters he feels are needlessly fretful: bed wetters."

http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/Dems-nervous-GOP-upbeat-as-vote-nears-3989238.php

Average Democrat = Bed Wetter. Obama's guy is right.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
Why is this it's own thread?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
You criticizing and critiquing Obama snort, chuckle, guffaw.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
Rong thinks 9/11 2012 = 9/11 2000
False equivalencies
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
Philo writes:

"Rong thinks 9/11 2012 = 9/11 2000"


What happened in 2000?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:06pm PT
"What happened in 2000?"

A very important meeting called by Clinton with Shrub, Cheney and his security team regarding a pattern of communications and plans for a significant terrorist attack on the US sometime in the fall of 2001.

Clinton was patronizingly patted on the back, and shown the door.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
"The problem with Democrats is that they believe government and money can solve problems."

Not really true at all, except as it is hyperbolized in Republican political ads.


"The problem with Republicans is that they are willing to sit by and watch government fail."

99.9% true.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
Thank you Apogee.
Eric Beck

Sport climber
Bishop, California
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
I have been a strong Obama supporter. We had an Obama sign up in our yard before he was even nominated. However, he has done something very bad and done it gratuitously.
Section 1013 of the National Defense Authorization act allows indefinite preventive detention of anyone with out them being charged. These people will have no access to an attorney. This provision was specifically requested by Obama. See:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/09/1043781/-Why-Obama-Will-Not-Veto-NDAA-Military-Detention-of-Americans-He-Requested-It

My own guess as to why he did this is that he and the 1% were genuinely frightened by the Occupiers and wanted more ammunition to fight them.

This leaves me in a big quandry. I can't stand Romney. Perhaps I whould vote for Jill Stein, Rocky Anderson or Gary Johnson.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
socialclimber,

Nationwide Red states rely more heavily on government assistance than Blue ones do.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 30, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
socialclimber,

PM username "jhedge" from mostly the Repubs are wrong thread

he posts lots of studies and charts proving red states get more fed dollars in than they pay in taxes out
Sparky

Trad climber
vagabond movin on
Oct 30, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
“The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”—Winston Churchill”
dirtbag

climber
Oct 30, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
What's wrong with Obamacare?

Got a better idea?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 30, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
Well, they start from a very low set bar.


Hell, Andy Jackson even ran the first free gubmint cheese program.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 03:26pm PT
So how many of those on the dole in those 'Red' states are Dems?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 30, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
Your average Democrat is......more intelligent than your average Republican. State IQ statistics for 2012 show that residents of the blue states have, across the board, higher average IQ's than the residents of the red states. You don't have to belong to Mensa to know what that infers.
darkmagus

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
I love that (new?) argument that goes around trying to depict anyone that's liberal as "not tolerant" of intolerant people. It's an odd kind of logical fallacy that I can't quite put my finger on. But to them, I say, remember that our country was founded during "the enlightenment" and as such, expresses enlightenment-era values at its core. These values include, but are not limited to, things like freedom, reason, access to information, democracy, etc. The whole idea of it is to create a society that doesn't infringe on the freedoms of its individual members and their varied backgrounds and individual cultures. I suppose you can boil it down to: you can't tell someone what to do if they're doing nothing wrong (I.e. not infringing upon someone else's freedoms). So to take a classic example of something like gay marriage: if you're a republican and you want to be left alone and not heckled when you say hateful things about gays, you have to realize that you're f*#king with the core values of America when you demand the right to hate others of a particular group. What if you get what you want? Gay people can't marry or whatever. Do you want to put them in jail? Execute them? Where do you draw the line in terms of trying to take away another human's freedom? That's the whole point of this country, to have a place where you can be free and do your thing regardless of "religion, race, or creed". If your religion is the source of your distaste for gay marriage, for example, that's just your problem. Do we ban religion because it makes certain people hate other people? No one gets the right to decide what other people do, am I right? I mean, do you want people to tell you that you can't have guns? It's the same thing. If a dude wants to marry a dude, that's like you owning a gun. Some would say "that's f*#ked up", and perhaps they'd be right...or wrong...but it doesn't matter as long as everyone's basic freedom as a human isn't in question. So I say, stop that bullshit argument that sounds like, "aw come on, don't take away our right to be hateful oppressive bigots that wish to rob others of their freedoms as we deem appropriate..."
darkmagus

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:10pm PT
HO MAN that was my longest post yet.

Allow me to supplement it with some fine work from the geniuses at THE DEN OF LIBERAL INIQUITY (UC Berkeley):

http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/07/22_politics.shtml
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
State IQ statistics for 2012 show that residents of the blue states have, across the board, higher average IQ's than the residents of the red states. You don't have to belong to Mensa to know what that infers.

That inhabitants of blue states are unAmerican egghead intellectuals?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
Having a problem finding the source, so forgive me, but I heard sometime last year that some of the most stridently conservative inland California counties also use the most government support. I'll keep looking for the source on that...

Charles

That doesn't surprise me, because the inland counties have huge unemployment problems. And as someone else has already suggested, I suspect that most of the recipients of government largesse here aren't Republicans.

I would add, though, that not all recipients of government largesse here are poor. I can think of several large farmers that live off the government dole, but then, many are Democrats.

Also, to the extent Social Security and Medicare constitute government expenditures, if the "red" states have disproportionate numbers of such recipients, that may explain the disparity.

Before the donkeys start to talk about the hypocrisy of wanting smaller government while collecting Social Security and Medicare, I would point out that it's not hypocritical to say "I wish I hadn't been required to pay for Social Security and Medicare" while, at the same time, collecting it. It would only be hypocritical if you gave them back all that was paid in on their behalf, and they then still insisted on receiving the same benefits.

John
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
The inland counties are where most of the state prisons are located.

Subtract prison spending, and run those numbers again. You'll see different results.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
"Average" Democrat. LOLz. It's the most diverse party our country has ever seen. Standing in stark, stark contrast to the overwhelmingly angry white geriatric obese male party.

To pretend that there is any such thing as an "average", in conversational use of the word, democrat is comical.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
State IQ statistics for 2012 show that residents of the blue states have, across the board, higher average IQ's than the residents of the red states. You don't have to belong to Mensa to know what that infers.

That inhabitants of blue states are unAmerican egghead intellectuals?

Actually, Anders, Daniel Patrick Moynihan had an explanation that I think you'd like: The closer the state is to the Canadian border, the higher the average IQ.

In truth, I'm unaware of any state IQ statistics that aren't derived from standardized achievement testing. The latter testing differs from IQ, because the achievement necessarily depends on such factors as the proportion of proficient English speakers, and this is somewhat correlated with the latitude of the state involved. So while the disparate statistics (which, incidentally, don't reflect the difference Jim alleges) aren't unAmerican, maybe it does help to live closer to you Canadians.

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:42pm PT
To pretend that there is any such thing as an "average", in conversational use of the word, democrat is comical.

Or to quote Will Rogers, "I belong to no organized party. I am a Democrat."

John
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
Perhaps sanity and intelligence are a function of the distance one lives from the equator. Them Inuit is smart cookies.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
"...it's not hypocritical to say "I wish I hadn't been required to pay for Social Security and Medicare" while, at the same time, collecting it."


Yeah, it's easy to say that...reality is a whole different set of circumstances, though.

But just for the hell of it...let's say the GOP's wet dream was fulfilled, and SS & Medicare were wiped out completely tomorrow.

What would replace it? Private investment strategies that continue to be unregulated, and treat the investors as dumb piggybanks to be robbed?

Privately held medical insurance programs that maintain the shareholder's interests over the patient?

No thanks.

mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Oct 30, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
Well where are the responses to the questions I posed? Ron, Hawkeye, TGT, Corniss Chopper, etc?

No well thought out replies---what I expected actually. You would have to think, reason, and type. Way to hard of work to expect a Zomney supporter to do, especially when they have to search for brains.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2012 - 10:37pm PT
Well, not to change the subject, but it looks like Obama care is getting off very strong.

zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:38pm PT
Gooble Gobble

Don't expect any explanations here, watch the film and figure it out yourself

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:56pm PT
Ron! Re your mention up-forum:

Yes high IQers.. Worked with several of those in the USFS... Quite bright they thought themselves to be.. Yet as ignorant of the actual forest and things real that they seemed all but brain dead.

I once had a forester -brilliant by test standards tell me of a three month old plantation with missle toe.. Then i pointed out to them they were looking at a 35 to 40 yr old banzai jeffery pine.. They said,,,, ohhhwwwww....Then i went on to tell them about missle toe and the fact it takes at least two years to manifest to a visible infection..To which they said,, ohhhhwwww....

I would be more impressed with your story, if you spelled Mistletoe correctly. Every Forest Sevice employee I ever worked with in Idaho called it Dwarfmistletoe, since it is only distantly related to English Mistletoe.
http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/fidls/d_fir/dmistletoe.htm

Yeah, but the smart guy didn't know schist. Must have been a Democrat.

You being a Forest Cop, obviously had the science down.

Yep!
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Oct 30, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
Ron my dad once told me he doesn't know everything but he can find out who to ask, once you find someone with the experience your looking for--ask, listen, and do what they say. In the bolting case I asked more than just you. I want to put up quality and am willing to be patient, prepare, plan, and execute.

Why can't you answer the questions?

1)Should Obama have not accounted for the expenditures accumulated under Bush for the Iraq war in our budget or debt?


2)Should we continue using the Federal Reserve (central bank) system opposed by the founding father's due to the debt attached to every dollar printed (among other reasons? Why?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2012 - 09:52am PT
Well, one thing Obama promised is that he'd raise our standing internationally. However, the Bush-Obama forigon policy's have done nothing but hurt us internationally and the end result is that we have to spend money on the military to get our way. Romney would be just as bad. Here's Iran below, but the news in the middle east, from Israel to Oman, is that we are an unreliable partner.

http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9107116184

Leader: Americans Enslaved to Zionist Regime

"TEHRAN (FNA)- Supreme Leader of the Islamic Revolution Ayatollah Seyed Ali Khamenei described the US administration as the most hated government in the world, saying that the White House has enslaved the American nation to Zionists.


Addressing a large crowd of Iranian students on Wednesday, the leader noted, "It is a great shame that the US presidential candidates compete with each other in their debates to show their devotion to the Zionists and have made their nation their slave."

Calling the US administration as the most hated one in the entire world, Ayatollah Khamenei reminded the US administration's allegation about war on terror, and said the White House has fallen so deep that "it has become an ally of MKO terrorist group, even renders support to the terrorist Monafeqin (hypocrites as usually referred in Iran) and removed it from its blacklist."

Pointing to the US claims on advocating human rights, the Leader said, "The most hostile anti-human rights measures are taken with the US support. The Zionists who have been violating the rights of the oppressed Palestinian nation for 60 year are fully supported by the US administration."

Ayatollah Khamenei also referred to the number of American prisoners in the country and said, "The high number of inmates in the US which has placed the country atop the world (in this regard) runs counter to the administration's allegations on supporting freedom of the people."

The US has been staunchly criticizing Iran's human rights conditions, while the country has been widely blamed for trampling upon minority rights." ................
blah blah etc etc

Studly

Trad climber
WA
Oct 31, 2012 - 10:11am PT
So what exactly is inaccurate about what he said Bill? Seems fairly represenative of whats going on, unless you are sppon fed on Faux News.
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Oct 31, 2012 - 11:52am PT
So the debt and the Fed's role in the economy hangs out there as a unresolved issue; I'll think I'll bring up jobs this Halloween. So lets looks at population growth; with growth still trucking along at 10%/decade or 1%/year:
So with population going up (driven by lax immigration policies)how are jobs doing:
Let's not forget the ruling class and their tax payer backed pensions:
To combine the three charts with get the Obama record on job creation:
And finally a lot of lip service is paid to education; so how is that liberal arts/art history degree panning out:

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 31, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
That's an interesting look on job creation and education.

Perhaps the Republicans shouldn't have blocked the bills put forth by Obama that would have helped job creation and students seeking an education.


Google "Republican Block Bills", you'll find the heart of the GOP right there...


Got a graph for that??


apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
Basically, the Republican platform is:

Sure, we drove the economy over the cliff. But this guy hasn't fixed it fast enough, so give it back to us....trust us...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
Oct 16, 2012 - 10:11pm PT

"Ron, you really are a potato head."
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
Yes, it's far better to ignore them, and make up your own detached reality, isn't it?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Oct 31, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
Your average democrat?



I'll go with guy number one 11 out of 10 times.








Guy number two.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:08pm PT
K-man has hit the nail directly on the head with the fact that the GOP-led Congress blocked a lot of Obama's and Democrats' bills.

The Republicans were not acting bi-partisan, they were not acting for the average American nor the middle class families. They were acting to spite Obama and his administration, to spite the Democrats' attempts to fix the problems of the Bush administration, and they were acting to further the interest of the wealthy and corporations at the expense of the United States.

Even for those on this forum that do not like Obama, surely you can see that.


And if you can't see that reality, I guess you are going to vote for Zomney. May the heavens help America if MIttens gets elected.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
Even for those on this forum that do not like Obama, surely you can see that.

Ummmm, hate to be the one to break it to you Patrick....
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
Ron there may be truth in that to some extent, but I would wager that most of the gridlock was the Republicans doing.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
K-man has hit the nail directly on the head with the fact that the GOP-led Congress blocked a lot of Obama's and Democrats' bills.
it WASNT ONLY the repub side of the coin that brought gridlocks... Two words,, harry reid-tard.

Bingo! Both houses passed legislation to their liking. Reid, in particular, never brought up the House's bills for a vote. That's why the Senate has not acted on a budget. The idea that the Democrats have been flexible and the Republicans rigid holds water only in Democratic pails.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
"Bullshit! The idea that the Republicans have been flexible and the Democrats rigid holds water only in Republican pails. "

Fixed that for you.

Your welcome.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
1)Should Obama have not accounted for the expenditures accumulated under Bush for the Iraq war in our budget or debt?


2)Should we continue using the Federal Reserve (central bank) system opposed by the founding father's due to the debt attached to every dollar printed (among other reasons?

Mountainlion,

I didn't see your posts until today. I normally try not to post on any political thread except the Republicans are always wrong one, but since that thread has degenerated into little more than name-calling and uncritical thought, while this thread seems to have some real issues involved, I'm breaking that self-imposed rule.

Your first question assumes facts not in evidence. The idea that a president can unilaterally change fiscal policy has no Constitutional basis. Congress determines fiscal policy. Thus, charging Obama with raising the deficit assumes power he doesn't have. Of course, the only reason Republicans point out the massive rise of federal spending under Obama is that he campaigned on a premise that he would reduce that deficit.

That said, I think the rhetoric of your question raises a valid point. Obama inherited two wars, and (prudently, IMHO) did not try an immediate disengagement. I don't think it's fair to blame war expenditures on him alone.

Your second question, however, has to my mind a clear answer: "Yes." We tried being on the gold standard, and its inflexibility led to depression after depression. The American economy, with its use of debt, deflates poorly. Using debt for investment greatly increased our standard of living. Unfortunately, I can't say the same about debt used for consumption of non-durables. Nonetheless, until someone can show me a better alternative to the Fed, I think that we must continue to employ it as our primary tool of executing monetary policy.

John
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
John, Ron. Can you name one bill that the Republicans sponsored that would have helped the US middle class if passed?


I've got my phone set on Notify so I'll get your answer as soon as you post it...
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
Reid didn't bring House Bills to a Vote that He knew would get filibustered.

Who would do the filibustering, Dr. F?, The bills passed the Republican house, so the only likely filibusterers would be Democrats.

Sorry, but the narrative of you, apogee, and the rest of the Democrats on gridlock fails.

For the record, it was Boehner who attempted to negotiate a "grand bargain" with Obama. He failed because Obama refused to compromise when it mattered. Obama has yet to show any substantial ability to negotiate, much less compromise, on anything important.

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
Here you go, k-man:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/house-passes-jobs-bill-with-wide-bipartisan-margins/2012/03/08/gIQAEi6lzR_story.html

John
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
I know that these sort of political threads are really there for the OP to vent some steam. And then other posters to react in same, for the most part.

While there may be some swingers on the Taco Stand, I don't see any swing voters. Those of us that post I'd reckon for the most part are singing to the same choir as their beliefs and ideologies.

There has not been one post that would make me think otherwise about who I believe should be POTUS, nobody has convinced me that Romney is better than Obama. And I suspect that is vice versa, that those who do not like Obama are not going to be swayed by any Supertopians who don't like Romney.

We are all preaching to fellow 'believers' it seems. May the best man (for the USA) win.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
Politics is politics. Historically, somewhere in that process, the country is lead forward on one agenda or another.

There is an undeniable amount of fact & quotes to demonstrate that the ONLY agenda Republicans had after their 2008 spanking was to filibuster and block ANYTHING that was put in front of them, no matter how closely aligned it might be with their own priorities.

The PRIMARY goal of the Republicans has been to block EVERYTHING, and make Obama a one term president. That kind of cynical, anti-American agenda is an absolute abdication of their leadership responsibility, and is worthy of the termination of every single one of them.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
JE
you seem to have a comprehension problem, anytime you get cornered, all of sudden you can't understand

Reid is in the Senate, the Senate Republicans filibuster

Same to you! We Republicans (and independents who know Nevada politics like Ron), claim that Reid fails to bring bills passed by the Republican House up for a vote. Your response is that Reid won't bring up bills that will be filibustered.

Again, I ask, why would Senate Republicans filibuster bills passed by the Republican House?

Take your time in answering. I'm trhough waiting for my econometric runs, so my break time is over.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
"...independents who know Nevada politics like Ron"

Ron? 'Independent'?

Bwahahahahahahahhahahahaaaa11111!!169696911192
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
The polls say the Independents are going to Romney this year.

They've had enough of this sh#t too, just like everybody else.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:39pm PT
Your an 'Independent' like I'm an 'Independent'.

Not even close.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
'researching the crap out of this election,'

Bah! You don't 'research' anything, Ron.

You simply read the whacknut links that your whacknut Repug cohorts send to you, then C&P them here.

Your voter ID card may say 'Independent', but you have your face deep in the GOP's kool-aid trough.


Edit: Take a guess as to what my voter ID card says.

(Good guess!)
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 03:01pm PT
Ron, there is a very strong chance that the economy is going to improve in the next 4 years, no matter who wins next week.

If/when that happens, if Rmoney is in office, I'm sure you'll fall right in line with the rest of the jackbooted Repugs saying 'Rmoney fixed it!'

If Obama is in office, there's no doubt in my mind that you'll say 'it's still sucks!'

(I think I'll bookmark this post for future reference.)
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 03:11pm PT
See what I'm talkin' about, Ron?

Your mind is already made up. It hasn't changed, it won't change. Ever.

That's not an 'Independent'. That's a Droid.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
Doc, it was obama who made these leaps against the constitution. Rewarding that is insane. If WE speak up, eventually after enough "firings" maybe washington will realize the "gig" is up...

True Ron. Romney hasn't spoken out against it, and is in lockstep with the "kill them all and let God sort them out including Americans citizens who think incorrectly" drone policy of Obama. The only alternative to a jackbooted Obama is Gary Johnson is it knott?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 31, 2012 - 03:18pm PT
Here you go, k-man:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/house-passes-jobs-bill-with-wide-bipartisan-margins/2012/03/08/gIQAEi6lzR_story.html

John


Thanks John. In your link, I read:

House Republicans voted down an amendment to the package that would have required large publicly-traded companies to disclose how many of their employees are based in this country vs. overseas. In the final vote, 230 to 175, all but three Republicans opposed the amendment.

And ...


Although most House Democrats voted for the bill Thursday, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) — who also voted for it — called the proposal “so meager” and much less effective than transportation funding bills being weighed in the House and Senate.


Wow, that is quite an example of a bill that the GOP sponsored to help our middle class... (not)
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
Actually, it's a rather excellent example of the way the Democrats' leaders feel. Because the bill didn't contain all that Pelosi wanted, we are all to assume that the bill's help was meager? Who's being partisan here?

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 04:06pm PT
" i arrived at this in nearly four years of consideration."

What a load of Krap®.

I've been in these polititard threads longer than you have, Ron, and my memory of your posts is crystal-clear: from the start, all the way to today and into the future, you've railed on Obama & the Democratic agenda.

Don't know why I would bother to look, but every damn post I can find of yours (and that's a LOT) confirms this.

Don't give me that 'careful, thoughtful consideration' bullsh#t. It's bullsh#t.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 31, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
anastasia posts:

Wait a second here. First of all not "everyone" in "each party" is such a fanatic idiot.

I am a Democrat married to a Republican. We agree not to agree and... We actually do agree on a few things.

We are both...

Pro gun.
Believe in the right to choose when it comes to abortion.
Anti death penalty because it actually cost the state more to have folks in death row, (appeals, etc.)
We both hate Obama care. It does not regulate insurance companies and they are the one's making health care so outrageously expensive in the first place.
We both agree we need a better health system that provides to all, just not this one.
etc. etc.


In the end, we just want a better life and we are all Americans.


I'm very sad to say that your husband is no longer a Republican.

Oh, they're very glad to get his vote, and they don't care how he registers But he is not considered a "real American" by that crowd, anymore than you or I are, and he will NEVER NEVER be allowed to contribute to policy decisions.

He is pro-choice, which means they define him as a murderer (in philosophy, if not in fact), who should be subject to the same death penalty that you both oppose.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 31, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
Ron, serious question:

Does it not bother you that Mitt Romney is a serial, congenital, shameless liar?

I mean over and over and over. Even after called out by the press, he doubles down and continues to tell bald faced lies. The most recent, this week, about the auto companies got so outragelously ridiculous that the CEO of Chrysler stepped up and called bullsh#t. And that's one example of like a thousand.

Steve Benen has been tracking the lies of Mitt in the campaign, and the breadth is just stunning. They are on installment #34 of the series, and each installment typically has 5-15 examples from the week. You can read the latest one and then scroll to the bottom for links to the other 33:

http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2012/09/14/13865583-chronicling-mitts-mendacity-vol-xxxiv?lite

These are all sourced with heavily linked supporting documentation exposing the lies.


The guy has a serious psychological problem, he lies more than anyone I've ever been exposed to. It's f*#kin' creepy and sad, and a little infuriating. There was always one kid in grade school who just told whopper after whopper, "my dad played in the NFL and I've got a pet tiger at home"...that's who Mitt reminds me of.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 31, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
No Ron, they are not "half truths". The most recent stuff about the auto industry got both the "Four Pinocchios" rating from the WaPost, as well as the "Pants on Fire" rating from Politifact...both the worst ratings they give. In other words, straight up bald faced lying. Yet Mitt doubles down and continues to run the ads, not caring in the slightest that he is lying to the country and specifically to the people of Ohio.

There is no world in which the ongoing, chronic, shamless, bald faced, LYING of Romney is even remotely comparable to anything coming out of the Obama campaign.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
Not even a close comparison, Ron.

Sure, both candidates stretch truths....but Rmoney has set a whole new low standard for the sheer number and audacity of them.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
I'm very sad to say that your husband is no longer a Republican.

Oh, they're very glad to get his vote, and they don't care how he registers But he is not considered a "real American" by that crowd, anymore than you or I are, and he will NEVER NEVER be allowed to contribute to policy decisions.

He is pro-choice, which means they define him as a murderer (in philosophy, if not in fact), who should be subject to the same death penalty that you both oppose.

If we accept your logic, Ken, neither is Anastasia a "real" Democrat. Believe it or not, there are still plenty of Republicans who think abortion should be legal, just as there are plenty of Democrats who don't think all Republicans fall back on guns and religion, or who cringe at the notion of "One nation under God." In fact, I rather suspect that a pro-choice Republican has more of a chance at being heard among Republicans than an anti-abortion Democrat does among Democrats. Heaven forbid if someone like Joe Lieberman wants to have a voice in the Democrats' policy or, in the last election, in their party at all.

In truth, though, it's the people in the middle who are becoming increasingly marginalized in both parties. Here in Fresno, the environmental left ran a series of ads against a local Democratic congressman whose voting wasn't pure enough for their line. Nationally, Blue Dog Democrats have become an endangered species within the Democratic party, just as moderate Republicans are subject to Tea Party attack as RINO's.

Here in California, the Republicans defined themselves so far to the right of the center that they've made themselves largely irrelevant. Unfortunately, that allowed the Democrats to entrench themselves in the legislature in a way that they were unaccountable to anyone but other Democrats, and have moved just as far to the left of center. Currently, no one speaks for the center.

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 05:23pm PT
Not even a close comparison, Ron.

Sure, both candidates stretch truths....but Rmoney [sic] has set a whole new low standard for the sheer number and audacity of them.

I'm sorry to read this, apogee, because it reflects, to me, an adherence to partisanship that has come to define contemporary American politics. Perhaps it's just a product of modern journalism that's confused advocacy with accuracy and "investigative reporting" for objectivity. I fear that most people don't even recognize the biases in their information sources any more. As a result, anything that views the world differently becomes a "lie."

I find much of what the supporters of both candidates say to be a lot of half-truths, but it could be worse. The ads for and against the various ballot propositions here in California contain not only half-truths, but quite a few truth-and-a-halfs.

The idea that people feel competent to decide complex issues by 15-second sound bites should alarm anyone interested in rational policies, but that is the current reality. Until some form of journalism committed to objectivity and accuracy becomes so compelling that it commands an overwhelming audience, I see little prospect for improvement.

John
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 31, 2012 - 06:12pm PT
Whatever anybody does, please do not quote Faux News. Come on, even the dog in the street knows the bias this Murdoch-shite channel brings to the party.

For those that want to quote Faux News, there must be more objective media outlets that can reflect your views.

Obama, as McCain would have had he won, inherited a very poison chalice. You just cannot turn around eight years of mismanagement in four years.

Personally, I think two things need to be done. Firstly, get rid of the Electoral College, it's archaic, let the majority vote of the people be the one that decides.

Secondly, let's change the Constitution where the office of POTUS is a one-term six-year office. Too many time have presidents, of any party, used the fourth year of their first office term to campaign. Sometimes to the detriment of the country.

It will take a while to rid the stench of the Dubya/Cheney/Rumsfeld years, if Obama can keep trying, okay. If Romney thinks he has the answers, and he gets elected, lets hope, for the better of the nation, that he has the answers. But somehow, I do not think he does.

Lies, damn lies and statistics. Stats can be used in both arguments, for and against.

I am amused that people think that Obama is a liar, perhaps he is, after all, he is a politician. But Mittens is even a bigger liar. And while politics is a dirty business, the Republicans, to their credit/discredit, have almost perfected the dirty, mud-slinging spin. Touché, on their part.

I certainly feel safer in the past four years than I did in the Bush Jr. years. Financially? Everybody has taken a hit (bar the big boys, politicians and uber wealthy).

Unfortunately, I believe Sandy will benefit Romney, as many of those hardest hit would probably have voted for Obama in the election. I hope that I am wrong and these voters will turn out on election day, despite the misery the super-storm has imposed upon them.

Perhaps it does not matter to some of you, but because the US and its policies affect much of the world, most Irish people (and non-Irish) I have met and talked with, want Obama to win. And it is not the circles I am running in, though I often run circles around myself. ;-).

They are genuinely afraid that Mittens will continue Dubya's administration's policies. To the detriment of both the US and the world. That is my take on it.

At this point in time I believe continuity is important. Obama hasn't done super great, but he hasn't done a bad job so far, collectively.

To all of you Supertopians, vote the way your heart/conscious/mind feels is right. Just vote. I have been to the US embassy and cast my vote.

Whoever wins the next POTUS election, let's hope they do the utmost to help out our country. We need it. The world needs it.

I just hope that those of you who vote against Obama do not do it because of his ethnic background, that you are not "birthers" (ridiculous). Remember the State of Deseret. I don't want that, not that it would remotely happen. But the mindset of it that carries forth to this day is not desirable in my eyes.

Heck what next, a Scientologist being elected prez? Tom or John, step forward.

Okay, perhaps I went a bit over the top on that last statement. In a 'joustful' manner. But no more than those who claim that Obama is a Kenyan. For heaven's sake, get your head out of the toilet and stick it in a pot of strong coffee.

EDIT

And JE, a hypothetical (very) question? Which of the two, Obama and Romney, would stand up against Turkish aggression agains the Armenians? Interesting, no? What does it have to do with the 2012 election? Perhaps, special interests would run the day, or rue it.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Oct 31, 2012 - 06:13pm PT
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 31, 2012 - 06:29pm PT

http://www.pe.com/local-news/riverside-county/temecula/temecula-headlines-index/20121030-temecula-man-67-jailed-over-damaged-political-signs.ece

Crowley?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
"...because it reflects, to me, an adherence to partisanship that has come to define contemporary American politics."

John, I would be very sorry to think that you find that Rmoney's complete disregard for facts, and willingness to take 180 degree turns on virtually every one of his positions, is anything similar to his opponent, or any of his Party's preceding candidates. I understand and respect your political positions, but to not be able to see this speaks loudly to your own adherence to partisanship.


Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 31, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
If we accept your logic, Ken, neither is Anastasia a "real" Democrat. Believe it or not, there are still plenty of Republicans who think abortion should be legal, just as there are plenty of Democrats who don't think all Republicans fall back on guns and religion, or who cringe at the notion of "One nation under God."

John, I gather that you haven't really looked at the respective parties, lately.

You will find that the democrats WILL accept people with divergent views, because they are.....liberal! They also do not define those who have divergent views as being "not real Americans".

There ARE plenty of self-described Repubs who are pro-choice, but they will NEVER, NEVER be allowed to represent the party.

And I think that is unfortunate
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 31, 2012 - 07:51pm PT
There ARE plenty of self-described Repubs who are pro-choice, but they will NEVER, NEVER be allowed to represent the party.

This may not sit well with some, but Fattrad was actually a neo-conservative/neo-liberal/and nice guy. It's a shame that he is no longer allowed to contribute, but while being a troll at times, he did bring some insights. And while he was repetitive (to say the least) he was not so far right as some Taco Standers. Hmm, I'd love to say names but that would not be positive.

Okay, all of his name-dropping and "I was a tough reserve deputy" BS was a bit wearisome, but Jeff (Fattrad) is a Republican who had some liberal views, on some things mind you.

I think that the key to a healthy society and democracy is that we take the (moderate) views of all sides and see how we can 'mesh' them together, in a compromise.

There are some rabid right wingers on the Taco Stand (you know who you are) and some stringent lefters (but really, not that many, IMO, most liberals on this forum are far more open minded than the right-twits, but I would write that, wouldn't I).

Chill out. If you really love America, open your minds.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 31, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
Actually, it's a rather excellent example of the way the Democrats' leaders feel. Because the bill didn't contain all that Pelosi wanted, we are all to assume that the bill's help was meager? Who's being partisan here?


John, I'm not being partisan and we are not "all to assume." I merely quoted the article you referenced.


And, since you say the bill aimed to help the middle class, why this:

House Republicans voted down an amendment to the package that would have required large publicly-traded companies to disclose how many of their employees are based in this country vs. overseas. In the final vote, 230 to 175, all but three Republicans opposed the amendment.

Rep. Gary Peters (D-Mich.) introduced the amendment to shed more light, he said, on how many American jobs are being outsourced, as many multinational companies do not reveal where their employees are based. Yet data show that multinationals as a group reduced their domestic head counts by 2.9 million while adding 2.4 million jobs in other countries between 2000 and 2009.

I think the Republicans want to hide how much they are moving jobs overseas. Not a real help to the middle class, eh?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 31, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
There is no way to generalize the Democratic Party anymore. Half of Democrats are ex-Republicans who wandered into the party after Limbaugh and his wanna-be's hijacked the Conservative Message.

So if you look at Democrats as a group, it is wildly diverse. Imagine the Zombie Apocalypse where the new Conservatives are the Zombies, and the Democrats are everyone left over.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 07:16am PT
And Ron, what are his (Obama's) actions? Could you have cleaned up the mess better? Could McCain? And you really think that Romney is the key?

In some (perverse?) way, I'd like to see Romney win, just so I can say four years from now after he has screwed things up further, "Ron, I told you so, nah nah nah nah na".

But that would be childish of me.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 1, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
Ron, yer straw man is burning.

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
Ron, destroying the Constitution?

Your man, the idiot Bush, and his administration did far more harm to the United States Constitution than Obama has to date. Far more.

Ron, I am not into name calling or flaming, but if you think otherwise about my above statement, than I seriously have to think about your mental state.

Okay, you are NUTS.

Now, little boy, go get your toy soldiers and play war, and give us sane, adult and reasonable people some peace for a couple of days.


Otherwise, we'll have to call the Waaaambulance for you.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 1, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
It has little to do with Obama and everything to do with the structure of the balance of power in our government which was explicitly designed to constrain executive power. The executive seeks power and carte blanche and seldom gives back any it is extended regardless of the party of the president in office.

This has become an a real issue since the abuses of the Nixon administration. Most of today's elder republicans served under the Nixon and Reagan administrations and have always felt those presidents exercised legitimate executive power in their actions. As a result they have been on a forty year campaign to expand executive power which culminated in the appointment of Roberts and Alito to the SCOTUS. Both men were and are activist supporters and advocates for the expansion of executive power - it's why they sit on the bench and why Roberts runs the court.

If you don't like what you perceive to be abuses of executive power then the only place you can lay the blame is on conservatives who still believe Nixon got a raw deal and think Reagan and Bush Sr's covert actions where legitimate exercises of executive power. I personally lay a lot of the blame on Ford - Reagan, Bush Sr, and W wouldn't have conducted themselves the way they did if Ford (and then Reagan, and W) hadn't pardoned folks for continuing abuses of executive power.

In short, the reason behind Obama continuing W's abuses lie more with the office than with the man and is another chapter in a four decade case study on the consequences of the unpunished abuse of executive power. And ensuring there is never another Nixon 'persecution' for a president simply 'doing his job' is the whole point of this enduring republican campaign for defending and enabling abuses of executive power at every turn.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
Research?

What, you call research Faux News?

Ronnie Boy, methinks the desert heat has fried your brains.

I do not know why I even bother responding to a moron. I have tried to keep my level of conversation at a decent rationale. But I am beginning to really believe that you are a bigot. A black man as POTUS?

"Yes, dear Ronnie," says Mom. "Times have changed."

Forget the stats, as they can tell two different stories. Look at the FACTS.

I truly feel sorry for you Ron. Sincerely, I do, like many people you are under a cloud of misinformation.

People like you sadden me. I expect ignorance from certain quarters, but you usually come across as intelligent. Perhaps I should rethink that aspect of you.


Now boy, grab your gun and protect your goolies. Cause those nasty Obamamites and Democrat vampires are coming for you. Wooo Wooo.


EDIT

IMO, people like you will be the cause of the downfall of the United States. polarization, spreading lies and misinformation, neighbor against neighbor, hatred, spewing useless site. I would like to say that I hope you are happy with life, but you come across as a bitter person.

Hey, go out and climb some desert formations, take that mind of yours off of politics. It might do you some good.

;-) Smiles, all smiles. Best wishes Ron and cheers.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
Ron, my mom died January 5, 2007.

But thank the heavens she was a good West Virginian liberal Mountaineer.

Still, if you can find the time to get your head out of the toilet and into a fresh jug of coffee, not decaf, then you might wake up.


and Ron, I wasn't putting your mother into the conversation, you twit, it was a "metaphor" so to speak. Oh excuse me, too big of word, let's see now...


...hmmm, I am just wondering how to talk to an ignoramus in simple words.


See the cat...CAT, can you say that?

See the dog... woof woof, can you say that? Woof Woof.

See Mitt and Paul run? Aren't they having fun?

Can you spell Mitt? Can you spell Sh*t? Mitt and Sh*t rhyme. Isn't this fun now children. Now turn to page two in your books.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:08pm PT

this was about average democrats wast it?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:11pm PT
Gosh Hawkeye, a self-portrait of you.

But you couldn't have taken the photo, unless...

...Nahhhh


I am having fun with you guys. Do I pay you or you pay me?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
Just an average Democrat doing his job.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:18pm PT
Yes, he has, and while a disappointment, it's a good object lesson on tendencies of the executive branch and why the founders struggled to come up with a system which would constrain those tendencies. Your party is utterly dedicated to preserving and expanding abuses of the executive's Constitutional powers and allowing / encouraging it to abridge and skirt both the Constitution the Bill of Rights at every turn it can and now has a Supreme Court to allow it.

The 9/11 attacks were unfortunate triggers allowing the neocon republicans to launch two preemptive wars and the broad expansion of executive power necessary to enable their 'new american century'. It took OBL and the Neocons together to bring the nation to a new low and Obama's failure to bring the W administration up on treason charges simply defers justice yet again and encourages more of the same by future generations just as the Ford pardon did.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
yup survival, it was a great political move....

you can hear the phone call now right?

BO: well chris, you kiss my a$$ and i might get you some help, how does that sound?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
From Lethal Weapon 2

Consulate Envoy: Sir, listen to your friend, here. He knows what he’s talking about. I don’t think you want to go to South Africa.
Roger Murtaugh: Why not?
Consulate Envoy: B-Because you’re black.

From Blazing Saddles

Howard Johnson: [reading] As honorary chairman of the welcoming committee, it's my privilege to present a laurel and hearty handshake to our new...
[looks up and sees Bart]

Howard Johnson: ...nigger.


Ron and Hawkeye, those white sheets you wear, they must get awfully dirty, have you tried bleach?

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
Hey Ron and Hawkeye

The three of us are sanctimonious. I can play 'geetar' and harmonica, and I am learning the piano, perhaps the three of us can get together as the "Sanctimonians". And I am a trained tenor (no fiver jokes please).

I do not mind playing music with close-minded people, it may help you to let go of your anal retentiveness. Music can do that.


EDIT

A long hard day, and now I am turning on fellow Supertopians (though they do not know what they think). I could go kick the cat, but I have never resorted to such a low blow.

I tell you what right-wingers (Ron, Hawkeye, Blue tooth, um Bluering, Couchmaster - that says a lot, couch potato, I read, and other anti-Amercian lovers of your ilk) go ahead and make crude dolls (and jokes) of me and stick the needles in. Just make sure that you stick needles in my left shoulder and lower back... and left hamstring, and... (too many injuries to add). Ahhh, acupuncture. Thanks guys, I feel better already.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
Ron, I can sing that. What's the lyrics? And what key? D or E?


I love jousting with you guys. Just keep your visors down when I come a charging.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
BO: well chris, you kiss my a$$ and i might get you some help, how does that sound?


"Sounds perfect boss! I'll finger your love eye while I go down!"



Don't forget wrongeye, he WAS the keynote speaker at your convention!
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:10pm PT
Already discussed to death Rong.

The employee knows the employer is now saving money at their expense. If he doesn't make an adjustment to salary or other benefit, they have the free market to find another employer.

In other words, the employee-employer market will make an adjustment back to an equilibrium. Of course this is way over your pay-grade.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:13pm PT
In case you missed it Rong:

In other words, the employee-employer market will make an adjustment back to an equilibrium. Of course this is way over your pay-grade.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
Already discussed to death. You seem to be not very well informed.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
How many Electoral Votes are needed for the Presidency?
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
nooo what will happen is a few million MORE will enter the govt voucher system all but crippling doctors, hospitals and the govt debt. Meanwhile joe average will still be paying out the kazzoo if he wants any coverage at all.

There is not one person in Canada that works for a company that doesnt supply health care, just doesnt happen. A company like that just wouldnt survive, the folks that make it successful go somewhere else.

from my point of view these arguments you guys have are CRAZY as sh#t...you dont want health care...makes absolutely no sense???
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
I feel sorry for you guys, no health care is such a hard concept to understand. I cant even imagine not being able to walk into any medical establishment and not get immediate coverage for free, crazy stuff.

Blows my mind
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:52pm PT
It is very different for a Canadian company or organization to provide health care, than for a US equivalent. What's usually provided in Canada is that the employer pays half the employee's medical services premium (+ for the employee's family), which is probably less than $100/month. In addition, the company offers extended insurance - disability, some dental, some optical, possibly something toward prescriptions, perhaps peripheral services (physiotherapy, etc), and some bells and whistles if you're in hospital. Again, usually employer and employee pay half each.

In the US, employer and employee share between them the full cost of whatever insurance is provided, usually totalling in the hundreds of dollars a month.
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:57pm PT
Thanks, ya I would be surprised if I was paying 50$ a month though, but maybe if you include dental and physio and stuff. Surprising there is anyone who wouldnt want that.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
Ron, the tide is going against you buddy, swim hard.

But then, if Mittens gets elected, you will not have to swim hard. You will be drowning. Lap it up, so to speak. Your lungs will be filled with derision, your mind in a swirl of a whirlpool, your body sucked down in the abyss.


Hrr, just gives me the creeps to think of those things.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
Norton, regarding the Electoral College, our forefathers thought, at the time, it was a good thing. I suppose so.

But it has outlived its usefulness, if it ever had one.

Democracy. Doesn't that mean that everybody who votes should have a say. So if A gets the popular vote and B gets the Electoral College vote...

... B wins. So much for the popular vote. So much for Democracy.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 1, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
i'm sick and tired of OBAMA pissing on the constitution.

ur average democrat thinks he's done great for this country.

mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Nov 1, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
Hawkeye you strike me as someone who has been looking up at average his entire life and wondering how he will ever improve enough to become average.

If I am wrong how about you post up what you have excelled at...crickets...crickets...crickets
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 1, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
Oh, I think your "average Democrat" is feeling pretty damn good right now

their guy is going to win in an Electoral landslide, well over 300 votes

almost as much as the black guy beat McCain and Caribou Barbie in 08

And Romney will disappear from the national scene after next week, and get on with all the important decisions of his private life, like installing car elevators in his mansions

And the Republican party will once again wonder why they lost so bad

and decide it was because they did not go conservative enough

because they just don't get it
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 1, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
Pyro: i'm sick and tired of OBAMA pissing on the constitution.

Funny, a google 'site:supertop.com pyro constitution 200X' search didn't turn up any complaints from you about W pissing on the constitution from 2003 to 2008 - how is that possible?
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Nov 1, 2012 - 09:12pm PT
Dear Red States:

We're ticked off at your Neanderthal attitudes and politics and we've decided we're leaving.

We in New York intend to form our own country and we're taking the other Blue States with us.

In case you aren't aware that includes California, Hawaii, Oregon, Washington, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois and the rest of the Northeast.

We believe this split will be beneficial to the nation and especially to the people of the new country of The Enlightened States of America (E.S.A).

To sum up briefly:
You get Texas, Oklahoma and all the slave states.

We get stem cell research and the best beaches.

We get Andrew Cuomo and Elizabeth Warren. You get Bobby Jindal and Todd Akin.

We get the Statue of Liberty. You get OpryLand.

We get Intel and Microsoft. You get WorldCom.

We get Harvard. You get Ol' Miss.

We get 85 percent of America's venture capital and entrepreneurs.

You get Alabama.

We get two-thirds of the tax revenue. You get to make the red states pay their fair share.

Since our aggregate divorce rate is 22 percent lower than the Christian Coalition's, we get a bunch of happy families. You get a bunch of single moms.

With the Blue States in hand we will have firm control of 80% of the country's fresh water, more than 90% of the pineapple and lettuce, 92% of the nation's fresh fruit, 95% of America's quality wines (you can serve French wines at state dinners) 90% of all cheese, 90 percent of the high tech industry, most of the US low sulfur coal, all living redwoods, sequoias and condors, all the Ivy and Seven Sister schools plus Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Cal Tech and MIT.

With the Red States you will have to cope with 88% of all obese Americans and their projected health care costs, 92% of all US mosquitoes, nearly 100% of the tornadoes, 90% of the hurricanes, 99% of all Southern Baptists, virtually 100% of all televangelists, Rush Limbaugh, Bob Jones University, Clemson and the University of Georgia.

We get Hollywood and Yosemite, thank you.

38% of those in the Red states believe Jonah was actually swallowed by a whale, 62% believe life is sacred unless we're discussing the death penalty or gun laws, 44% say that evolution is only a theory, 53% that Saddam was involved in 9/11 and 61% of you crazy bastards believe you are people with higher morals then we lefties.

We're taking the good weed too. You can have that crap they grow in Mexico.

Sincerely,

Citizen of the Enlightened States of America




Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 2, 2012 - 06:00am PT
Dee ee, I don't think that I can add to your post. Brilliant.

But as Dr F wrote, the knuckle draggers just don't get it.

As much as I love my country, sometimes I think it might be a good idea to split it like you suggest.

Let the red-neck pansies have their lands, us open-minded people will have ours and live a better life than the Reds, who will be wallowing in the gutter.



EDIT

Pyro, so Obama has pissed on the Constitution, so say you. Could you give us some examples, and by the way, perhaps you can open your mind enough to also give examples where Dubya and his gang pissed on the Constitution. Oh, I forgot, you are blinkered.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 2, 2012 - 09:36am PT
Pyro said:
"i'm sick and tired of OBAMA pissing on the constitution."
To which Patrick replied:
Pyro, so Obama has pissed on the Constitution, so say you. Could you give us some examples, and by the way, perhaps you can open your mind enough to also give examples where Dubya and his gang pissed on the Constitution. Oh, I forgot, you are blinkered.
Read upthread Patrick, or just start here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/30/awlaki-killed-american-cl_n_988929.html Do you feel that teh murder of US Citizens without due process because of thought crime is acceptable? How about their kids sitting in the car next to them. Their death was no accident.

Anyone have the feeling that Romeny, with a belief in Jesus, will not be murdering American Citizens for thought crime? I don't. He's already said he supports and will continue the drone war that Obama has expanded and ramped up. Can you show where Congress, who are suppose to be the ones approving or disproving wars, has approved that action Patrick?


● Obama violated the Constitution with his “recess appointments” while the Senate was not in recess. It is up the Senate to decide when it is in recess, not the president. That distinction between executive and legislative authority is what the Separation of Powers doctrine is all about.

● Obama is an obvious participant and co-conspirator in Eric Holder’s approval and later cover-up of the illegal “Fast and Furious” gun-walking program. Unlike the Watergate case, people have actually died as a result of this illegal program.

● Obama undoubtedly has knowledge of and has approved Homeland Security Secretary Napolitano’s project to require Border Patrol management to falsify apprehension numbers on the southwest border. This is a clear violation of Article IV, Section 4 of the Constitution, which requires the federal government to protect the country against foreign invasion.

● The president’s open refusal to enforce the Defense of Marriage Act is a violation of Article III, Section 1 of the Constitution, which does not authorize the president to choose which laws to “faithfully execute.” The oath taken by a new president on Inauguration Day does not say, “… to defend the Constitution of the United States… to the best of my ability except when I disagree with it.”

● Obama’s HHS violated the First Amendment by requiring employers to cover contraceptives, abortifacients and sterilization in the health insurance they provide their employees, despite their religious and moral objections. He later shifted the mandate to the insurance companies, requiring all plans to cover such services, thinking Americans would not understand that the mandate still requires faith-based groups to subsidize services to which they have sincere religious and moral objections.

● The Obama administration violated the First Amendment when it refused a grant to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops for helping victims of human trafficking obtain food, clothing and access to medical care because of the Conference’s pro-life position. In fact, the Conference was refused the grant despite having received higher scores of effectiveness than the grant’s recipients.

● Obama told the Department of Justice not to defend the Defense of Marriage Act, which was passed by a bipartisan Congress. Instead, the DOJ argued against the valid law (which has been upheld by multiple courts), forcing the House of Representatives to hire outside counsel to defend the law. This gross abrogation of a president’s constitutional duty to defend and protect the laws of the land was unprecedented.

● Obama signed Dodd-Frank into law, which allows the government’s seizure of property, violating the Due Process Clause of the Constitution and creating administrative positions that are not vetted by the Senate as required by the Appointments Clause.

● When the Democrat-led Congress would not pass net neutrality, Obama’s Federal Communications Commission violated the Constitution by contravening Congress to restrict the freedom of Internet service providers to manage their network transmissions.

● When the Democrat-led Congress could not pass cap and trade, Obama’s EPA decided to auction greenhouse gas allowances, essentially imposing a tax on emissions, which, according to the Constitution, can only be done by Congress. You will also recall Congress having to act to halt the EPA’s ban on incandescent light bulbs.

● When the Democrat-led Congress did not pass the Employee Free Choice Act, Obama contravened Congress by pushing the NLRB to pass regulations that allowed for “ambush elections” and required employers to provide employee e-mail addresses and phone numbers to union organizers.

● When the Democrat-led Congress refused to pass the Dream Act, the Obama White House and DHS decided to implement a policy of granting illegal aliens stays of refusal, which is essentially amnesty by fiat. The Obama policy even gives local immigration officials the authority to dismiss deportation cases against illegal alien criminals convicted of violent crimes.

● Without the approval of Congress, as required by the Constitution, Obama ordered the U.S. military to attack Libya.

Before anyone gets their panties in a twist with the "YEAH BUT WHAT ABOUT BUSH"...riff: I agree, but note that Bush ain't President now and has no chance of being one. Check it out.

dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Nov 2, 2012 - 10:20am PT
It was not set up as a Democracy.
It was set up to be a Federal Republic. I know we have not been taught this, but it is the case. If people keep wanting to change the Constitution just come out and say it.
We should start a thread here about the Constitution and I bet we would "all" found out how ignorant we are as to what is really in it.

Has anybody posting here studied the Constitution. We seam to leave it up to Scholars and Politicians to do it for us, perhaps we should all require ourselves to do it instead of expecting someone else to tell us what is in it. Speaking for myself here as well.

The United States government is a federal republic set up by a Constitution adopted in 1787 by a Constitutional Convention; The federal government consists of three branches--executive, legislative, and judicial--which operate according to a system of checks and balances against each other and checks on their power set forth in the Constitution to protect the individual


Article IV, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution states:

“The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government”
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 2, 2012 - 11:09am PT
Wait Rong, I thought you said "Fast & Furious" WAS Obama's "Fast & Furious".

But then I suppose even you realized that was a lameass Bush job.

So eventually you may find that your Benghazigate BS in wrong and you are a hypocrite.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 2, 2012 - 11:29am PT
Rong again Rong. The 2009 budget was proposed and signed by Bush. It went into effect 4 months before Obama took office.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 2, 2012 - 11:32am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

It's like admitting to everybody you can't do basic math
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Nov 2, 2012 - 11:50am PT

pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 2, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
like installing car elevators in his mansions
if he (Romney)has that kinda money to spend then he's more than welcome!

obama had ur's and my money and he spent it on some auto-crap ford industry.

talk about pissing on the constitution.

p.s Dee i like what u wrote but we only get 85% venture cap's cant we get more than that..
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 2, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
Pyro, turn off AM talk radio and learn to read.
obama had ur's and my money and he spent it on some auto-crap ford industry.

talk about pissing on the constitution.

FORD? You stupid sack of excrement your ignorance unmasks you.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:01pm PT
Ford?

Ford did not receive one dollar of Federal money

but then we all knew that
WBraun

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:22pm PT
The continued presence of Al-Qaida

There's no such thing.

Al-Qaida was created by the intelligence agencies as black ops, disinfo and psych ops to mislead the public and world.

Anyone that listens to Rumsfeld is a total fool .....
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
Dee ee,

How about we separate California, rather than the United States? The leftists can have greater LA and the Bayarrhea. I'll even throw in Orange County. Oh, and take Santa Cruz County, Please!

We conservatives can take the more sensible parts of the state -- Central Coast, San Diego County, and the part of the state covered by the U. S. District Court for the Eastern District of California.

Now you can impose whatever misguided regulations you want, tax yourselves as you see fit, and engage in social engineering to your heart's content. Just leaves us alone. We're tired of being your colonies, and of your taking our water, telling us how to farm and run our lives, and trying to keep us from our mountains.

John
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
Tuesday 11/6/2012 ....

Day of reckoning for all of us.....

11/7/2012 .... we all come back here, and mud sling.


DeDe.... the south tried that back in 1861. Didn't work out to well.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:42pm PT












philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
Rumsfeld? Really? You would quote a man who should be facing court in the Hague for war crimes and crimes against Humanity simply because it is the same Rovian message you have bought into lock, stock and barrel? Did you forget all the warnings Donny Dumbsfeld had about 9/11 under his watch?

Jebus Rong when was the last time you got laid? And not by the Oosik.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
sending people to Gitmo?
what an idiot,
just wait till Romney is elected, we will have a gitmo in Carson City for all the non-mormons that whine

will they still let you have internet access?
John M

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
http://news.yahoo.com/detailed-account-benghazi-attack-notes-cias-quick-response-020906681--abc-news-politics.html

you need to stand down Ron.. you are being led around by a ring in your nose
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
Rumsfield, Rumsfield. I've heard of that name before. It rings a bell...


Oh yes, that Rumsfield:

[Click to View YouTube Video]






And Ron outs himself as a real bonehead with this line:

"im not the one voting for someone whos already PROVEN hes a liar..."


Whoa boy.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
John M,

no doubt there is some truth to the article, i am sure there is....now consider the timing....now consider the timeline and how long it took for the administration to clearly indicate that perhaps it was not a stupid movie but just so happens coincides with 9/11....

liberals cannot possibly be this blinded by stupidity can they as to believe that politics is not going on with this issue? really? i worry about people that sutpid.
John M

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
Actually Hawk.. it has more to do with not outing CIA assets. Something the GOP has a history of not caring about.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
.now consider the timing....now consider the timeline and how long it took for the administration

Yeah less than 24 hours to say it was an act of terrorism. what a slacker. He should have gone public as it was happening like Mittens did.

CockEye you are one pathetic hypocrite. And an anonymous troll. You bring an unpleasant stench to the forum.
John M

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
You are being led by a ring in your nose Ron. . Embassy employees are attacked often. It is a dangerous job. We don't go to war every time that they are. That is the significance of the number of embassy employees who died under Bush's watch.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:05pm PT
That's an impressive list of fabricated 'violations' of the constitution - if you buy those assertions you really are gullible.

[ Oh, and do note that F & F was just an op under "Project Gunrunner". Shipping guns to Mexico was another absolutely brilliant idea of the Bush team the Obama administration failed to curtail due to the illegal immigration hysteria on the right. ]
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
I already explained why - "Black Hawk Down" is why they didn't go in and the number of CIA personnel involved no doubt further contributed to the whole clusterf*#k as it wasn't a typical State installation. Again, you have an incredibly naive view of the world.
John M

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:20pm PT
Because Benghazi isn't Afghanistan. Using a gunship in a country that we aren't fighting a war in could be construed as an act of war.

I have no doubt that every year some Ambassador somewhere complains that there isn't enough security at his embassy. Sometimes those complaints are back channel, and some times they are public. And every year some embassy gets more security and another one gets less. And sometimes our security efforts fail. It happens every year. Which is why 43 embassy personnel died up Bush's watch. The thing that you need to understand is that the party that keeps wanting to reduce the security budget is the GOP. The other thing that you need to understand is that we can't always use military assets. Unless of course you want WW3. Which is a distinct possibility. We nearly entered it during the Bush admin and the middle east is still a hot bed. It probably will be as long as they have oil. Russia wants it. China wants it, and we want it. Do you risk starting WW3 every time embassy personnel are attacked? No.. you don't. So that means sometimes embassy personnel die.
John M

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
And if thats the case, then ALL foreign diplomats should evacuate TODAY!

Errr... I guess we should also pull all of our troops out of harms way too. And yes.. embassy personnel know that there job can be dangerous depending on what country they are in.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
This Republican, at least, feels strongly that we should not be politicizing the Benghazi issue. Unfortunately, both parties reverted to their public personae, and blamed the other for the tragedy. The more I find out about it, the more it sounds like the inevitable result of a government run by people. People are imperfect, and sometimes make mistakes. Dividing responsibility between the CIA and State makes mistakes more likely. End of story.

In fact, to its credit, this administration has, by and large, pursued the same foreign policy that its predecessors -- Republican and Democrat -- have done, just with different rhetoric. Frankly, I think the far left has a much greater beef with the Obama foreign policy (as opposed to its rhetoric) than do most Republicans.

We should be united in condemning this attack. Instead, we're backbiting and trying to score points by showing the "other side's" weakness. Here I thought we should be on the same side. Enough!

John
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
^^^^^
Hear, hear!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:31pm PT
Tell me again why anyone should vote for obama?


Because he is willing to give gays a fair shake.

Because he believes women can make their own healthcare choices.

Because he got us out of Iraq.

Because he is winding down Afghanistan.

Because he believes in climate change.

Because Osama is dead, and he made the call.

Because he saved the auto makers.

Because he believes in the importance of government.

Because he passed our first meaningful healthcare reform.

Because he's universes better than the alternative.

Because the alternative is Mitt Romney and right wing religious teabaggers.

Because he believes in tolerance and blacks and hispanics and asians.

Because he doesn't want to put American citizen muslims on hate lists because they're muslim.

Any more questions ?
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
Yeah and what about

your mean democrat?

your modal democrat?

your standardly deviational democrat?

Do these really exist, or are they just some fleeting imaginary numbers?



survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
Ive wanted us OUT of the ME and their OIL circle jerk.

Mitt Romney's gonna do that? Whoa, I missed that part.........
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
Again, incredibly naive. It's exactly the same naivety that has caused us grief in the Mideast again and again. It isn't Latin America and we don't control any aspect of and it's always a disaster when we attempt to act like we do.

Few political events in the region are not initiated by us and when large scale instabilities evolve such as those we are seeing from the 'Arab Spring' our hand is forced - we have to respond or risk being sidelined in world events in ways that further marginalize our role in the region.

Now I know that's a big concept for your simple world, but the reality is that it's a shifting landscape and no one - not us, not Russia, not China, and not even Iran - knows quite what an appropriate response for their interests looks like. Everyone is winging it.

About the only thing you can say for sure is that Bush administration's purge of Mideast analysts, native speakers, and HUMINT resources from our intelligence services is now absolutely killing us.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
Your average republican:

Willard Romney?
Grover Norquist?


"We don't need someone who can think. We need someone with enough digits to hold a pen."
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:44pm PT
Farouk you sound as irrational as my brother.
Crawl back under your bridge anonymous troll.

Oh and...
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
He hates America and the West because they are strong and successful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, he "hates America and the West" because that's another desperate fantasy rightwing nutjobs tell themselves. They are afflicted by overwhelming feelings of persecution, are manipulated like so much political oragami, and as a whole can't be the brightest bulbs in the box given how often they vote against their own economic interests by simply waving flags in their faces.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
Section 1: Legislative power vested in Congress

sorry it was'nt ford it was the auto unions.

carry on! i think there should be a thread about the constitution.

i don't care whom u vote for just as long as ur a constitutionalist.. :)

Philo there are three things americans should have

SOAP BOX
BALLET BOX
AMMO BOX
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
Your reasoning, survival, leaves a bit to be desired. I could reply point-by-point, but I have neither the time, nor that ability to write in such a way as others would care to read. Nonetheless:

Because he is willing to give gays a fair shake. Agreed.

Because he believes women can make their own healthcare choices. So does Romney and the Republicans. The difference is that Obama wants others to pay for those choices, even if they oppose them.

Because he got us out of Iraq. The jury's still out on that, I'm afraid.

Because he is winding down Afghanistan.No evidence that Romney would not.

Because he believes in climate change.So do I, and, most likely, most other Republicans. The issue is what to do about it, and whether the unilateral decisions of the Obama EPA represent the proper balance between marginal cost and marginal benefit.

Because Osama is dead, and he made the call.Agreed, and he deserves a lot of credit for that.

Because he saved the auto makers.Disagree. HE paid his UAW allies at the expense of everyone else. What did he do, for example, to save Ford? Nothing. Chapter 11 without the governmental robbery of the secured debt probably would have given us a better automaker, but since that's a counter-factual, we'll never know.

Because he believes in the importance of government.So does every other person running for public office. The issue isn't the importance of government, the issue is the proper role and limits of government. He arrogates to himself a rather large amount of executive power that, IMHO exceeds that given in the Constitution.

Because he passed our first meaningful healthcare reform. I agree that it's meaningful, and that it's a change. I strongly disagree that it's an improvement, and it appears that a majority of Americans do, too.

Because he's universes better than the alternative. No comment needed.

Because the alternative is Mitt Romney and right wing religious teabaggers.See above.

Because he believes in tolerance and blacks and hispanics and asians.Are you saying that Romney does not believe in tolerance? More amazingly, do you say that Romney disbelieves in Blacks, Hispanics and Asians? As in he thinks the don't exist? Or do you mean that he disbelieves their ability to succeed? If anything, it's the Democrats that disbelieve in the ability of Blacks and Hispanics to succeed, because the Democrats' policies have a foundation of racist disbelief in the ability of those groups to succeed. The contention regarding Asians is even more absurd. The Democrats have perpetrated racial discrimination -- in the name of ending racial discrimination -- that had as one of its primary effects a strong anti-Asian outcome. That's nothing new for the Democrats. After all, FDR ordered the Japanese-Americans confined to domestic concentration camps. If the University of California Democrats had their way, there would be far fewer Asians enrolled in the UC system.

Because he doesn't want to put American citizen muslims on hate lists because they're muslim. Neither does Romney. He does, however, recognize that currently America's biggest terrorist threat comes from Muslim terrorists.

Any more questions ? None needed.

John
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
That's why most federal tax dollars go to support overwhelmingly republican states - because they're so damn manly and self-reliant.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
This Republican, at least, feels strongly that we should not be politicizing the Benghazi issue. Unfortunately, both parties reverted to their public personae, and blamed the other for the tragedy. The more I find out about it, the more it sounds like the inevitable result of a government run by people. People are imperfect, and sometimes make mistakes. Dividing responsibility between the CIA and State makes mistakes more likely. End of story.

In fact, to its credit, this administration has, by and large, pursued the same foreign policy that its predecessors -- Republican and Democrat -- have done, just with different rhetoric. Frankly, I think the far left has a much greater beef with the Obama foreign policy (as opposed to its rhetoric) than do most Republicans.

We should be united in condemning this attack. Instead, we're backbiting and trying to score points by showing the "other side's" weakness. Here I thought we should be on the same side. Enough!

John


I kinda see where you're coming from, John. But I have to disagree!

4 people are DEAD! Wrap your head around that first. About 30 made it out o.k.

Was this a preventable attack/assault? Yes.

It wasn't like the Embassy assaults in Africa earlier. They had intel that people were scouting this position! They asked for help!

It isn't going too far to call BS on this op! This did not have to happen.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
Because he believes women can make their own healthcare choices. So does Romney and the Republicans. The difference is that Obama wants others to pay for those choices, even if they oppose them.

Well, that's complete bullsh#t. It's simply an exercise in equal rights - all employed women get the same baseline benefits regardless of their employer. End of story. There are cults and people all across the nation which do not believe in medical care of any kind - if they become employers are you going to speak out for their right to withhold all medical care?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
Sorry JE, I'll just pop out the first couple. BTW that was a helluva response for someone that doesn't have the time!

Your reasoning too, leaves something to be desired.
*Because he believes women can make their own healthcare choices. So does Romney and the Republicans.
It's not just about who pays and you know it. The right wing has wanted to take away a woman's choice for safe and legal abortion ever since RoeVWade. Deny that?

*Because he got us out of Iraq. The jury's still out on that, I'm afraid.
Agreed, but he sure got us a helluva lot further out than George did.

*Because he is winding down Afghanistan.No evidence that Romney would not.
Except his comments about not committing to a timeline and showing the bad guys our hand.

*Because he believes in climate change.So do I, and, most likely, most other Republicans. The issue is what to do about it, and whether the unilateral decisions of the Obama EPA represent the proper balance between marginal cost and marginal benefit.
Well I don't buy what I hear from the right about it, how's that?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
FAROUK HATES GAYS AND MUSLIMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
Yeah, four people are dead - maybe the CIA shouldn't have been playing fast and loose with security. Oh and you'd hope that a CIA operation gathering intel on the current on-the-ground situation would have been way further out ahead of the situation to begin with. It wasn't State's failure so much as the CIA's and the fact that the CIA guys got blindsided so badly probably only heightened concerns of yet another "Black Hawk Down" fiasco and led to a lot of decision-making paralysis.

And'four people' are dead? Hey, four people die in Iraq and Afghanistan every week due to W's mind-addling, but most excellent Mideast adventure.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
CockEye you are one pathetic hypocrite. And an anonymous troll. You bring an unpleasant stench to the forum.


philo, i know its dark in there but i guess it explains why you are also so full of sheet. you are what you eat you know.

by the way,

any pathetic loser who would bring out their family issues here with their own brother is really a piece of work....not something to be proud of at all you POS.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
BOMBSHELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Farouk isn't even an American citizen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He's here illegally!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He's on the NO FLY list!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Doesn't even have a greencard, and is failing at his attempt to get the fake marriage thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He's trying to get an anchor baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
The Dems have been trying to Not politicise this tragedy,

wow, too much petyote for you Dr. F???

lets see, Hillary takes the blame what 24 hours befroe the debate and just yesterday an intelligence report comes out (no arm twisting there from the whitehouse) citing actual "facts" from the event.

yeah right, no politics from the whitehouse.

here is that turnip truck you fell out of......

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
No one has still been able to tell me just how one goes about "declaring an end" to the Afghan war?

You do it the same way the Russians and good Catholics do it.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
If you guys weren't so hilarious you'd be pathetic...or vise versa.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
Actually, we got a bill for three to four trillion dollars for Iraq and Afghanistan.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:54pm PT




healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
If we were actually thinkng we would be more into South and Central america- you know worrying about those that actually connect to us.

We did the latin thing - Bush Sr's main focus as head of the CIA was latin america and murdering as many folks who opposed our corporate interests as possible - you remember, folks like whole seditious villages and especially all those uppity jesuit priests and nuns.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 2, 2012 - 04:26pm PT
wanna bet? Iran coming to a theater near you....Turkey and Syria too..


Uh, they're already in the US, bro!



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 04:33pm PT
But,, id rather see it go to solving our own issues FIRST and foremost.

The rightwing doesn't believe we have any issues. Hell, farouk thinks even acknowledging we may have issues is an act of self-loathing. That IS the problem and the FIRST issue conservatives should tackle.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 2, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
Hezbollah is here...in the US.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 2, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
A map purporting to forecast election results, and advertising "no tossups", clearly isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
It's the "I'm afraid of brown people" thread. Doesn't matter if the brown people are in the middle east or the white house.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 3, 2012 - 12:14am PT
Hey right whiners, suck on this:


Nate Silver, updated an hour ago.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 5, 2012 - 06:22am PT
OMG Wade, what is THAT?

So Dirt Claud says the US is not a democracy, but a Federal Republic.

Yes, it has been a while, but I have read the Constitution. And I am proud to say that the second person to sign the Declaration of Independence, Josiah Bartlett (not to be confused with Martin Sheen's character on the West Wing) was in my 'family tree' (as is Mark Twain). Josiah Bartlett, a physician representing New Hampshire at the Continental Congress.

And JE, it was not liberals that allowed the Turks to slaughter Armenians. It was the conservatives of the day that sat back.

You probably know this, but U of Nevada has an Armenian studies program (or did at one time), as does Fresno State.

And you can keep Orange County.

EDIT
NB It was one of my former climbing partners, David Yerian, who got me interested (back in the mid-1970s) in the Armenian situation.

And U o N at Reno has a Basque studies program. Interesting people the Basques are. Nobody knows where they came from. There are theories, but they are just that, theories. The Basque language is related to Swahili, Martian, you name it, but linguists cannot nail it down.

My interest? I was dating a gal here in Ireland whose father was a Spanish Basque and mother was a French Basque. Last I heard, she is teaching at a Basque school in Spain.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 5, 2012 - 07:47am PT
Basque language came from Neanderthal, I'm pretty certain
dirtbag

climber
Nov 5, 2012 - 09:28am PT
Good morning Right Wingers! Another day, another uptick for the President. This time, Forecasting Guru gives Governor Moneybags a 13.7% chance of winning.




Sorry righties, but it looks like time is about up to make the White House white again.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 5, 2012 - 09:34am PT
I just hope after the votes are projected and the tally is in that Willard and the Mitt-tites will finally embrace truth, accept the overwhelming weight of reality and concede graciously.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 5, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
Jaybro, you could be right, but I am certain that a lot of scholars would disagree with you. I have studied, a lot, the Basque language, and I do not think it was Neanderthal. Why would you think otherwise?

Yes pre-Eurpopean, proto-European? But Neanderthal? That is a stretch, but, considering the lack of a better answer. Perhaps. But you are really reaching where other scholars have gone and discounted. No, not Neanderthal, and if I were you, I would not say that to loudly in San Sebastian or Bilbao.

The natives may not take to kindly to your views.

EDIT

Ridiculous, I have studied as much of the language as many non-Basque people.

Neanderthal. Where in the world did you come up with that?

Jaybro, you are educated. Was it a tongue in cheek comment? Or do your seriously believe Neanderthal? Like I said, tread lightly in Bilbao if you believe Neanderthal.

I know Basque people, they are not Neanderthal or even closely related. Yes, it is a mystery where the people came from, but Neanderthal? Tread lightly in that part of the world.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 5, 2012 - 05:41pm PT
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Nov 5, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
"So Dirt Claud says the US is not a democracy, but a Federal Republic."

I said that?
I think the Constitution says that. But being how you believe conservatives are liars and cheats I can see why you would think I made that up.

Article IV, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution states:

“The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government”

This was not set up to be Democracy. The forefathers new that a democratic form of government would eventually fall. As they all have through out history.

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule,
where 51% of the people may take away
the rights of the other 49%." — Thomas Jefferson
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 5, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 5, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
The Basque people are interesting - there is a community of them in Bakersfield for some reason - haven't looked up why yet -

Riles,



dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Nov 5, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
Man, those are some gorgeous places for sure. Would love to be able to climb it someday, but just to be there would be awesome.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
Excellent pics upthread!

By SHELDON G. ADELSON

"When members of the Democratic Party booed the inclusion of God and Jerusalem in their party platform this year, I thought of my parents.

They would have been astounded.

The immigrant family in which I grew up was, in the matter of politics, typical of the Jews of Boston in the 1930s and '40s. Of the two major parties, the Democrats were in those days the more supportive of Jewish causes.

Indeed, only liberal politicians campaigned in our underprivileged neighborhood. Boston's Republicans, insofar as we knew them, were remote, wealthy elites ("Boston Brahmins"), some of whose fancy country clubs didn't accept Jews.

It therefore went without saying that we were Democrats. Like most Jews around the country, being Democrat was part of our identity, as much a feature of our collective personality as our religion.

So why did I leave the party?

My critics nowadays like to claim it's because I got wealthy or because I didn't want to pay taxes or because of some other conservative caricature. No, the truth is the Democratic Party has changed in ways that no longer fit with someone of my upbringing.

One obvious example is the party's new attitude toward Israel. A sobering Gallup poll from last March asked: "Are your sympathies more with the Israelis or more with the Palestinians?" Barely 53% of Democrats chose Israel, the sole liberal democracy in the region. By contrast, an overwhelming 78% of Republicans sympathized with Israel.

Nowhere was this change in Democratic sympathies more evident than in the chilling reaction on the floor of the Democratic convention in September when the question of Israel's capital came up for a vote. Anyone who witnessed the delegates' angry screaming and fist-shaking could see that far more is going on in the Democratic Party than mere opposition to citing Jerusalem in their platform. There is now a visceral anti-Israel movement among rank-and-file Democrats, a disturbing development that my parents' generation would not have ignored.

Another troubling change is that Democrats seem to have moved away from the immigrant values of my old neighborhood—in particular, individual charity and neighborliness. After studying tax data from the IRS, the nonpartisan Chronicle of Philanthropy recently reported that states that vote Republican are now far more generous to charities than those voting Democratic. In 2008, the seven least-generous states all voted for President Obama. My father, who kept a charity box for the poor in our house, would have frowned on this fact about modern Democrats.

Democrats would reply that taxation and government services are better vehicles for helping the underprivileged. And, yes, government certainly has its role. But when you look at states where Democrats have enjoyed years of one-party dominance—California, Illinois, New York—you find that their liberal policies simply don't deliver on their promises of social justice.

Take, for example, President Obama's adopted home state. In October, a nonpartisan study of Illinois's finances by the State Budget Crisis Task Force offered painful evidence that liberal Illinois is suffering from abject economic, demographic and social decline. With the worst credit rating in the country, and with the second-biggest public debt per capita, the Prairie State "has been doing back flips on a high wire, without a net," according to the report.

Political scientist Walter Russell Mead summed up the sad results of these findings at The American Interest: "Illinois politicians, including the present president of the United States, have wrecked one of the country's potentially most prosperous and dynamic states, condemned millions of poor children to substandard education, failed to maintain vital infrastructure, choked business development and growth through unsustainable tax and regulatory policies—and still failed to appease the demands of the public sector unions and fee-seeking Wall Street crony capitalists who make billions off the state's distress."

At times, it seems almost as if President Obama wants to impose the failed Illinois model on the whole country. Each year of his presidency has produced unsustainable deficits, and he takes no responsibility for his spending. Worse still, unemployment has become chronic, and many Americans have given up on looking for work.

Whenever President Obama deplores the wealthy ("fat-cat bankers," "millionaires and billionaires," "at a certain point you've made enough money," and so on), it tells me that he has failed to learn the economic lessons of Illinois, and that he still doesn't understand the vital role entrepreneurs play in creating jobs in our society.

As a person who has been able to rise from poverty to affluence, and who has created jobs and work benefits for tens of thousands of families, I feel obligated to speak up and support the American ideals I grew up with—charity, self-reliance, accountability. These are the age-old virtues that help make our communities prosperous. Yet, sadly, the Democratic Party no longer seems to value them as it once did. That's why I switched parties, and why I'm now giving amply to Republicans.

Although I don't agree with every Republican position—I'm liberal on several social issues—there is enough common cause with the party for me to know I've made the right choice.

It's the choice that, I believe, my old immigrant Jewish neighbors would have made. They would not have let a few disagreements with Republicans void the importance of siding with the political party that better supports liberal democracies like Israel, the party that better exemplifies the spirit of charity, and the party with economic policies that would certainly be better for those Americans now looking for work.

The Democratic Party just isn't what it used to be."

Sarah Silvermans take on the richest guy in Nevada for some background if you do not know who he is. http://scissorsheldon.com/
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 6, 2012 - 03:22am PT
Yep, I was thinking Temple Crag also. In the past, I have climbed in the Palisades a lot.


Dirt Claud, if I misinterpreted your post, apologies.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Nov 6, 2012 - 11:10am PT
No worries Pat, perhaps I'm just over reading stuff too.
Just wanted to make it clear that the Constitution said it, not me.
It would be good to start a thread on the Constitution to find out how much most of us "really" understand it. Me included of course.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 7, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
Your average democrat is ecstatic at the repudiation of republican obstructionism on display in Obama's dominating performance in the swing states.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 7, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
Suck it Righties--you've been spanked again.

Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Nov 7, 2012 - 12:45pm PT
Your average democrat is ecstatic at the repudiation of republican obstructionism on display in Obama's dominating performance in the swing states.

Here's hoping that the far right realizes that obstructionism hurts the people.

Here in NH, it's almost sad that Charlie Bass lost. He was one of the last of his type. A moderate republican. Pro choice, pro environment.

Its a shame that the tea party has forced out the moderate republicans and conversely, the dems have forced out the blue dog democrats.

Those type of people are exactly who we need.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 7, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
The Basses are an eclectic crew by any measure. We used to party with them up at their lake compound when we lived in Francestown back in the mid-80s. Moderate Republicans aren't making a comeback anytime soon though and that's good for our party over the course of the next twenty years.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 8, 2012 - 05:48am PT
Dirt Claud, no prob, we all see things our own way at times.

I still think that the Electoral College should be given a kick into touch. It is an archaic "institution" IMO.

And I still think that the position of POTUS should be a one-term six-year deal.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 9, 2012 - 07:43am PT
I understand the idea behind the Electoral College, giving the smaller states a fair say, but it really should be about the popular vote. I believe a big rethink should be on the EC. It is not so much that I think that the ''fewer' should have an equal say than the 'greater', of course there must be some sort of balance. After all, as Dirt Claud pointed out, we are a Republic, a country made up of states.

The balance should focus on the individual states and the Federal Republic.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 9, 2012 - 09:07am PT
A down side of the electoral college is that the largest states--TX, NY, CA were ignored, except when campaigns needed $$$.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 9, 2012 - 09:25am PT
Suck it Righties--you've been spanked again.

While I'm relieved that Romney didn't make it to office, you have to admit - Obama signing an extension of the Patriot act, the NDAA, shutting down state medical Marijuana dispenseries that were legal (putting thousands of law-abiding citizens in jail for YEARS)... what the f*#k?!?


And when he ALMOST gets something useful done it gets killed by the senate (closing Gitmo, among hundreds of other things).


I'm happIER. Am I happy? F*#K no.






The election is over. I'm not trying to argue one side vs. another. I want to know if it is possible to have a conversation about what it is the President can actually do versus what he is doing, because he is doing some terrible things.... and NOT doing some pretty important ones.



And Mitt F*#king Romney was the spawn of satan and would have set our country back culturally and socially 20 years. Just in case you thought that was my 'angle.' I don't have one...
dirtbag

climber
Nov 9, 2012 - 09:45am PT
Good points GDavis.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Nov 9, 2012 - 10:45am PT
they will post graphs comparing education to voting in attempts to paint one side as "uneducated". They will slander the opposition or any other opinions..

But that figure was initially presented by Glen Beck to indicate that universities are brain-washing people as liberal. That hardly sounds like coming together as one! The numbers are what the numbers are. Interpretations vary though. Some see some interpretations as divisive - others see them as a point of interest for other reasons.

Personally, I think the only thing that is divisive is the name calling and the absolutes (i.e., all democrats are....; all republicans are....). That is foolishness.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 9, 2012 - 10:54am PT
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 9, 2012 - 11:07am PT
Ron complained
Now THAT ^^^^^^^ is really quite accurate,,ive been labelled exactly as such on the other politard thread.


Only when your posts are racist, lies or hateful. Then you cry about how everyone calls you bad names.


Ron continued
There are some posters on this forum that will do ALL they can to continue the DIVIDED states of america.



Thank goodness you are not one of those people!
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 9, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
Yep I do not understand why this has not been a bigger deal so far.

NDAA and the "PATRIOT" act are Fascist. Not in some tinfoil conspiracy whackjob way. It's the real deal.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 9, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
Joe- he's cracking about Illegal Iranian Nazi immigrant gangbangers from benghazi...and Compton invading the res with taxidermied drone cat copters.


Mono-Yes!!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 9, 2012 - 03:17pm PT
400+ posts to a thread about a type of buggy that's now rarely seen. Wow!
What's next, a thread about pennyfarthings?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 03:28pm PT
Bummer there isn't a forum somewhere that could be searched for Ron's outrage prior to 2008.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 9, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
Riley

There has been terrorism in the USA since the first days of the constitution and will continue forever.

Look up the history of terrorist acts.

It is not an excuse for the loss of civil liberties.

Infact it is spitting on the sacrifice of over 1 Million Americans. (if you count confederate soldiers)

Liberty or Death

froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
Certainly not me Ron. But I would remind you that the most vigorous and consistent opposition to abuses of executive power, no matter who is sitting in the Oval Office, comes from groups like the ACLU which I'm guessing you regard with contempt (correct me if I'm wrong). That is one area that I find genuine differences between those who identify as Democrats vs. those who identify as Republicans. When Bush was shoving through the Patriot act (not to mention the extralegal actions Bush and crew engaged in) there was nary an objection to it from the right. Indeed, anyone who questioned it was labeled a traitor by the right.

I think the left has a pretty good record of opposing things like this no matter who is pushing it.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
Maybe you missed the part where I said I opposed it ;-)

So let me be more explicit...

I oppose any legislation that subverts due process. I oppose the expansions in executive power that the last decade has brought. I oppose imprisonment without judicial review, indefinite detention and extralegal killing and have consistently. That is why I support groups like the ACLU and EFF.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 04:40pm PT
What about Montana, a state with gun laws in direct conflict with fed requirements? Is everyone there going to be labelled a " belligerent"?

Montanans have always been belligerent, In fact, the original Montanans - the Blackfeet and Crow were belligerent as hell and the whole Salishan Nation of tribes thought they were total bad asses.

I personally think we need "border protection" up there and ought to wall the whole state off.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
EFF seems well intended as does the ACLU yet it has become to politically entrenched imho.

That could be because they work solely on political issues.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
So Ron, then you'd be for closing gitmo, bringing them to the states, and letting the Uyghurs go? You do know about the Uyghurs, right? The muslims who weren't fighting us, but that we have jailed without a trail on behalf of the Chinese government.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 05:15pm PT
Ron,

The Bill of Rights covers everyone, not just US citizens (as do many international treaties we are signatory to).

Oh, and timely, the latest EFF newsletter just appeared in my inbox...


Dear Friend of Digital Freedom,

As 2012 comes to a close, I've been reflecting on the relentless series of campaigns, publications, and cases in which the dedicated lawyers, technologists, and activists of the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) have engaged in service of a better, freer digital future. With help from supporters like you, we've been able to accomplish so much.

The year started off perilously as we fought back a pair of dangerous Internet censorship bills (popularly known as SOPA and PIPA) backed by copyright maximalists. EFF played a critical role during the day-long website blackout protest by Google, Wikipedia, and others, as millions of Internet users were referred to EFF's website for an explanation of the dangers and an opportunity to take action. Nearly two million emails were sent through EFF's action center to let Congress know how you felt, and together we were able to successfully de-rail the legislation.


As the year progressed, EFF's legal team continued to fight against all sorts of threats to your freedom. We carried on with our battle against the U.S. government’s warrantless wiretapping program. We filed briefs against unauthorized government GPS location tracking and drone surveillance, bogus copyright and patent infringement lawsuits, and the overbroad seizure of data stored with third party providers. We fought for fair use and the rights of innovators and service providers. We promoted the use of open wireless networks and won renewal of your right to jailbreak your cell phone.


EFF's international and tech teams sought to protect activists, bloggers and journalists throughout the world who were being censored and arrested. We created guides and technology tools to help people protect themselves and their communications. Our browser plugin for Firefox and Chrome, HTTPS Everywhere, helped over 2.5 million users secure their communications from eavesdropping and other security threats.

Looking forward, however, there is still so much to be done. EFF is moving into a new building, where we'll be continuing some old fights and preparing for some new ones. The threats to freedom and innovation keep on coming, and EFF is ready to continue to fight for your rights.

But we can't continue do it without your help.

If you've already given to EFF this year, thank you for your support. If you haven't, or if you have the ability to give a little more, please consider making a donation today.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 05:26pm PT
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Supreme Court said Friday it will consider eliminating the government's chief weapon against racial discrimination at polling places since the 1960s.

What a coincidence! Nothing 'activist' about that whatsoever (which four justices could possibly have voted for that), is there. The assault on minorities continues - the right just doesn't get it. And on the heels of an election that saw more voting rights violations in recent memory.

They think this is going to help them, but in reality it's just sending the message to minorities that they aren't welcome and those minorities are going to respond by voting in ever stronger numbers in order to tell these guys to go f*#k themselves.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 9, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
This nation has faced Annihilation. Facing annihilation was it's birth pains.. A man said Give Me Liberty or Give me death.

A nation was born of the SUPERTOPO Motto

Yer gonna DIE!

I grew up knowing that at any moment the Warheads could bloom and Humans would die by the BILLIONS and if we were lucky we would pick ourselves up again....

IN THE STONE-AGE


And now this pathetic leadership wants me to fear Terrorists like Osama???

ARE YOU F*#KING KIDDING ME?

WTF are they gonna do.. get a nuke and blow up a million folks who ARE GONNAA DIE ANYWAY?????????


F*#K ALL THOSE WHO TAKE OUR FREEEEEEEEEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LIBERTY OR DEATH




mrtropy

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Nov 9, 2012 - 09:06pm PT
I am a Democrat and I vote.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 9, 2012 - 09:11pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Freedom!

America





Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 9, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
Malemute! Re your mention:

we got lots of animals, few humans ... we got our priorities straight


You folks are doing great. We are the fuked up nation!
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 10, 2012 - 10:50am PT
The 'Nuge is a f*#king pshycho but I absolutely approve of his lifestyle when it come to having a sustainable food source... for a freaky fukin dude, he has his priorities straight in hunting and game.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 10, 2012 - 11:06am PT

I know a taxidermist who had an HS helicopter land in his parking lot with a fully battle geared team to arrest him over two salted turkey skins from mexico. TRUE STORY. HOMELAND security at work.....


I call Bullsh#t, not by you, but by your taxi buddy.

I mean, does this sound even remotely credible?

Of course not.

Degaine

climber
Nov 10, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
FYI climbski2,

That photo of the mountains is not in the US but on the Italian side of the Mont Blanc Range, in the photo are the Noire de Peuterey, the Blanche de Peuterey, and in the wee way background you can make out the Matterhorn and Monte Rosa behind that.

Great photo and a fantastic place to climb.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 10, 2012 - 12:20pm PT
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 10, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
Degaine

That photo of the mountains is not in the US but on the Italian side of the Mont Blanc Range

Yeah I realized that but I like Jon Griffiths photo so much i left it there anyway. Freedom
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Nov 10, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
Ha! Climbski2 posted a photo with the caption 'America!!!', and it was the Alps.

Strong work.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 10, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
same trick can be played on repukes using the language on the patriot act…..

not sure what this proves… oh, wait… you're a publicon reactionary… Now it makes sense that it is all pointless.

Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Nov 10, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
Interesting. I saw the photo and thought his point was about freedom, not necessarily where the mountain range was.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 10, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
Vive la liberte!FFFFFF
RRRRRR
EEEEEE
EEEEEE
DDDDDD
OOOOOO
MMMMMM
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 10, 2012 - 06:28pm PT
Karl Rove and his buddies spent many many millions on their superPac,
and got right next to nobody elected!
BWA HA HA hahahahahahahaaaaaa!!!!!!

Just yer average 'publicans.....
dirtbag

climber
Nov 10, 2012 - 06:59pm PT
Bushiit that its bulshiit....That HAPPENED. Pure FAKKT.

That story is as real as the jackalopes he is creating to fleece tourists.
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Nov 10, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
He got it on Fox News. It must be fair and balanced.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 10, 2012 - 09:17pm PT
Give it a rest Ron....you're boy, his party and his politics lost. America has changed....white boys have a say, of course, but it does appear to have been greatly diminished...ha, ha, ha!
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Nov 10, 2012 - 09:20pm PT
Easy Ron, we can see the froth on your mouth.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 10, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 10, 2012 - 10:23pm PT
Ron just can't let go of the bullshit lies he & his Party created in a pathetic attempt to put their slimebag into office.

Example: 'Hillary was thrown under the bus by Obama'.

You are so convinced this fallacy is true, that you've created Chapter II of this lie: that Hillary is stepping down from her SOS position because she's pissed off at Obama about Libya.

Nevermind the fact that Hillary announced she would not continue as SOS months before Libya.

Kool-aid. Stop the guzzling, Ron.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 10, 2012 - 10:31pm PT





donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado

Nov 10, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
Give it a rest Ron....you're boy, his party and his politics lost. America has changed....white boys have a say, of course, but it does appear to have been greatly diminished...ha, ha, ha!

WOW! THIS IS WRONG IN SO MANY WAYS!

Any respect I had for you as a climber just went out the window!
I thought you were a bigger man than this show of bigotry.
But I guess I really don't know you
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 10, 2012 - 10:40pm PT
your average democrat thought romney would go to war with Iran

Ron, completely reasonable assumption given Mitt's foreign policy advisors. Did you even bother to find out who they were? Same neocon pukes who got us into Iraq and who have been agitating for war with Iran for decades.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 10, 2012 - 10:47pm PT

The party of free stuff since 1829
dirtbag

climber
Nov 10, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
TGT, your people--conservatives--hung black people from trees.


They are your people.

Conservatives.

You'll have to put up with a black man in the white house for another 4 years.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
dirtbag

climber
Nov 10, 2012 - 11:01pm PT
What do I think about Faux News Bengahzi conspiracies?

































































Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 10, 2012 - 11:10pm PT
Well now


It appears that Ron is on one of his occasional----posting frenzies.

Go Ron!


It also appears that BLUEBLOCKR is perhaps a racist himself, after his post calling Donini a racist.

A slight bit of ST backtracking reveals:

zero photos for BLUEBLOCKR.

zero trip reports for BLUEBLOCKR.

Lots of posts on political theads for BLUEBLOCKR.


So------what do you think?

Is BLUEBLOCKR our one-time and still revered, hero Bridwell?
dirtbag

climber
Nov 10, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
No Ron. Read again what I wrote.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 10, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
dirtbag

climber
Nov 10, 2012 - 11:28pm PT
Again Ron, read the post(s). Neither post you commented about say what you think they said.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Nov 11, 2012 - 12:55am PT
No, Fritz. BlueBlocker is another guy...an actual Human guy. I know him.
Good guy, different sort. Rockmonkey.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 11, 2012 - 04:24am PT
I thought you were a bigger man than this show of bigotry.

Actually, pretty much only a bigot could consider what Jim posted as any form of bigotry.

You guys do keep it up, however. The more and longer you do just brings the day we have all three branches of government back in democratic hands again that much closer and god knows I'd prefer not to wait until 2024 for that day to come. As it is, you are never going to see the inside of the Whiteyhouse or another republican senate majority again in your lifetime with your current attitudes.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 11, 2012 - 10:34am PT
TGT, your people--conservatives--hung black people from trees.

No point in giving dirt a history lesson, but I'll try.

If by conservatives, you mean the Jeffersonian conservative republicans, that became modern Democrats versus the Hamiltonian liberal republicans that became the Whigs and then the Republican party you would be correct.

Conservative at the time meant that the forerunners of the Democrats idealized the classical patrician Roman form of republic complete with slaves.

If you look at the county by county electoral map the "cotton belt" is solidly blue.

It always has been. Republicans have never won them, even during the mythical "southern strategy."

Bull Connor still lives in the heart of Democratic Dixie.


dirtbag

climber
Nov 11, 2012 - 10:44am PT
What a crock of sh#t TGT. You are either a liar or ignorant of history. Which is it?

All the lynchers--your people--lynchers--are now republicans.

See Lyndon Johnson's push for the Voting Rights Act.

See Richard Nixon's Southern Strategy.

See Ronald Reagan's state's rights (dog whistling for "segregation") speech in 1980.

See Lee Atwater.



Atwater: As to the whole Southern strategy that Harry S. Dent, Sr. and others put together in 1968, opposition to the Voting Rights Act would have been a central part of keeping the South. Now [the new Southern Strategy of Ronald Reagan] doesn't have to do that. All you have to do to keep the South is for Reagan to run in place on the issues he's campaigned on since 1964 and that's fiscal conservatism, balancing the budget, cut taxes, you know, the whole cluster.

Questioner: But the fact is, isn't it, that Reagan does get to the Wallace voter and to the racist side of the Wallace voter by doing away with legal services, by cutting down on food stamps?

Atwater: You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger." By 1968 you can't say "nigger" — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Nigger, nigger."[6][7]


These are your people.


Most of the democrats remaining in the south are black.

Edit: and let's not forget the the architects of modern conservatism, Goldwater and Buckley and to some degree, Reagan, all supported segregation.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 11, 2012 - 10:51am PT
Please provide ONE (1) example of a Republican lynching someone.



I can come up with hundreds of examples for Democrats if you want to go there.


Only one party ever had an official terrorist wing, The KKK.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 11, 2012 - 10:55am PT
Are you really this obtuse?

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 11, 2012 - 10:59am PT
How bout that pre-planning for an attack on Iran.


You do realize that part of having a world class military means that they have plans in place for invading basically every country on the planet right?

Any time that conflict with a particular country gets any more likely, those plans start getting tweeked and upgraded.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 11, 2012 - 11:10am PT
And why did southern whites quit voting for Democrats in the 60s?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 11, 2012 - 11:24am PT
And why did southern whites quit voting for Democrats in the 60s?


They got an education and good jobs.

dirtbag

climber
Nov 11, 2012 - 11:40am PT
Cheeses & RIce Dirt and Doc complaining about "lynchings". why dont you go back a wee further, im sure theres a neanderthal repug that clubbed his lady over the head before dragging her into a cave.


It's called history, Ron, and it has nothing to do with guys creating jackalopes purporting to see black helicopters.

And btw, with respect to that article, is tea partyism a conservative movement or a liberal one?
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Nov 11, 2012 - 11:53am PT
to make such blanket and all encompassing statements isnt accurate

It's on par with using isolated incidents to prove your point, Ron.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Nov 11, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
The reality is, someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong.

Just because you feel that you are correct Ron, does not make it so.

The best thing you can do is to agree to disagree, rather than continually posting things that have been proven incorrect.

How's about you offer constructive thoughts about how to make things better for you, rather than focus on things that piss you off?

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 11, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
How's about you offer constructive thoughts about how to make things better for you, rather than focus on things that piss you off?


But, but but that's not the Limbaugh Dimflaw Way.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Nov 11, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
Ron, you are wrong in your conclusion that the Benghazi incident was a cover up.

Please address my request for answers to the things you gripe about.

And, saying that we should be out of the middle east (see how I typed that out?), is not an answer.

What should we do to make America a better place?

Also, it's spelled 'Secretary of State Clinton', not 'Billary'. Show some respect. Like her or not, show respect for our diplomats, you seem to respect Chris Stevens.

Respect our diplomats, otherwise you're undermining our national pride. Which we all feel.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 11, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
La Raza is the cartel?

They want to turn the western US into Mexico?

Wow. You've been looking around some funny places Ron.

http://www.nclr.org/
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 12, 2012 - 02:29am PT
"Lifelong dissent has more than acclimated me cheerfully to defeat. It
has made me suspicious of victory. I feel uneasy at the very idea of a
Movement. I see every insight degenerating into a dogma, and fresh
thoughts freezing into lifeless party line."
--Isador Feinstein Stone, I.F. Stone's Bi-Weekly (May 19, 1969)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 12, 2012 - 02:55am PT
Ron, dude, you're losing it.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 12, 2012 - 09:18am PT
Anders, I was baffled at first but then...

4.
Also called democrat wagon. a high, lightweight, horse-drawn wagon, usually having two seats.

The best things on this thread? The pix of Temple Crag and indeed, the one of the 'crag' in Patagonia. But which has the better rock and which is more choss?

Ron, are you intent on becoming the new Fattrad or Lois (two people I like and get along with, but...) or...

...on a 'find search' of the thread, it tells me that Ron is more than 100 searches. Now let's see, and remember, I am not great at arithmetic of mathematics, but as of now 533 posts to this thread and Ron comes up over 100 times, but of course the find search will include posts that have the word Ron in it, but still... let me recheck with only posts Ron has posted, then I will do the maths.

At my count (but don't necessarily trust it as I am a liberal) Ron posted 133 times on this thread. Let's see 533 divided by 133 = OMG, some of us have too much time on our hands.

I can't believe I ate, oops, read the whole thing.

Is my point taken?
dirtbag

climber
Nov 12, 2012 - 09:29am PT
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v11/n475/a03.html
"
Hahahahaha, the stupider someone is, the stupider the things they believe

Any paranoid lunatic can find any paranoid lunacy they want on the internet

Only makes you look more delusional - and stupider.

LOL...the author is "Tyrus W. Cobb, Former Special Assistant to President Ronald Reagan." I guess he got tired of playing for the Detroit Tigers.

BTW, today I saw a bumpers sticker that said "Don't Re-Nig in 2012." Yeah, I'm sure he is an average Dem.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 12, 2012 - 09:44am PT
Ron, you have GOT to be shitting me.

Are you not reading the signs or hearing what the "protesters" are saying?
The first guys flipped a bird and walked by with a Mexican flag.

Sure those people had a right to assemble, same as the Westboro Baptist people with their "god hates fags" signs at military funerals.

"Go back to Mexico!" assumes that none of them are American citizens.
Or is it a heritage protest not a nationality protest?

See Ron, I don't automatically ally myself with a white person because they are white. I want to know something about their mind or heart.
I know many great Mexicans who have ZERO intention of taking over the western USA. I'm trying to speak reasonably to you, but you seem to jump at any anti-Latino conspiracy you can get your hands on.
Where did you get this hatred of Mexicans anyway?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 12, 2012 - 10:04am PT
Survival, where does hatred of Mexicans come from?

I just watched Bandolero!

Those darn Mexican bandidos tried raping Raquel Welch, knifed Dean Martin and shot Jimmy Stewart.

Bogie found out...

"Badges, to god-damned hell with badges! We have no badges. In fact, we don't need badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges, you god-damned cabrón and chinga tu madre!"

Grrr, just as bad as American Gangstas.

Or Nazis, or WW2 Japanese soldiers, the KKK or those goddamn Fenian bastards.

In fact, anybody like me from the Bay Area. Grrr, we are gurriers. Trash, lefties, spawn of Satan, you name it... and it doesn't matter if it East Bay like me, the City, North Bay, South Bay, we are all doomed to hell. (Um, not all, Bluering and a couple of other Supertopians will go to heaven after The Rapture). I wonder if they have toilets in Hell? A bar? McDonalds? A Starbucks?

Heck, give me LIMBO, I'll even take Purgatory.

(I am trying to rack up as many posts on this thread as Ron, so he doesn't feel lonely.)

EDIT

we are all doomed to hell

Or climbing at Mt Diablo or falling and being shredded like cheese at Pinnacles NM.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 12, 2012 - 10:15am PT
Ron, not another mystery. There are too many mysteries in life. ;-)
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 12, 2012 - 10:21am PT
Yeah, I noticed the bald heads and the gang signs.

I also notice how much you bring up Mexicans, as opposed to all other hate groups you mention.

Mexicans, illegal or otherwise are not worse than white racists or muslim extremists.
Ignorance and hatred know no color or national boundaries. That's what we should be fighting.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 12, 2012 - 11:03am PT
Ill bet you didnt know Denver has a Columbus day parade every year


Yes that is true in fact Colorado became the first state to observe an official Columbus Day in 1905.


that several other hate groups try to break up, year after year.

But this isn't true. As a proud Choctaw Ron should know that most Native Americans are not fond of Columbus Day in the least. There have been concerted efforts by a coalition of groups to curtail the annual parade but traditions die hard. There are protest parades as counterpoint but Denver does a good job of keeping the peace.

You WONT see that on ANY TV channel.

You won't because these are not "Hate Groups" and the Parades quite appropriately coexist.

By the way look up Colorado's history regarding two things.
1; look up the connection between Colorado and the KKK and in particular the involvement of Denver Police.
2; fast forward a generation or two and look into Denver's role in Martin Luther King Day and Parade.

And then let me tell you of the annual counter protests. Now those fux ARE hate groups.

Thank God that people can learn, grow and progress.
Your turn Ron.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 12, 2012 - 11:44am PT
Ron, your mystery is my misery... or is the other way around?


EDIT

Ronnie, over 14,000 posts since 2009, wow, not a Supertopo record, but...
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 12, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
TGT, regarding your 1800s drawings, you do realize that both the Democrat and Republican parties were far different then than as today. Nice try at parody though, but, it doesn't seem your forte.

(Am I getting closer to the number of Ron posts on this thread?)
Eddie

Trad climber
San Francisco
Nov 12, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
Whichever side you voted for, please vote for real reasons!

this video is very enlightening...(it happens to be about Romney fans..but that is not the point)

Highlight: 4:05 - 4:44

[youtube=nY0M7IdNl7U#!]
link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nY0M7IdNl7U#!


If I got spontaneously interviewed, I would look pretty silly, so I let a lot of these people off the hook. However...the rest of the people in this video made me laugh out loud, multiple times...and then start crying at the thought that this is real.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 13, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
Ron, firstly, it is not that difficult to count somebody's posts, and secondly I am just jousting with you. I thought you had thicker skin than that... and you probably do.

Am I strange?

People are strange when you're a stranger
Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted
Streets are uneven when you're down

When you're strange
Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange
No one remembers your name
When you're strange

Courtesy of Jim Morrison and The Doors.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 13, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 13, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
Well dooood, if YOU had mexican gang members tapping caps in your drive way- you would suddenly become quite concerned. If you have HS helis over head on a DAILY basis, your concern would again grow.

Ron, I've got no major rub with you personally. I like you in fact. But if you've got Mexican cartel caps getting tapped in your driveway and you've got Homeland Security over your house every day, it sounds like you need a new place to live.

But I must emphasize brother, that there is no La Raza conspiracy to take over the western USA. However, you do understand that they stole it from the natives before we stole it from them, right?

Re: the video posted above: The lady that says Obama's father was a Muslim and an atheist and a communist, all at the same time, is priceless!!

The dude at 7:30 that says Buddhists are trying to tell us what to do is ALSO PRICELESS!!!
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 13, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
...if YOU had mexican gang members tapping caps in your drive way...

That's why I moved somewhere else. The only worries I have now are keeping the deer from eating my flowers.

I can't tell you how nice it is to have that worry, and only that worry.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 14, 2012 - 11:53am PT
14,237 posts (as of a few minutes ago) in the relatively short time you've been here, Ron.

You are as prolific as fattrad or Lois. Some people find that a bit weird.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:01pm PT
Meanwhile,, over a hundred missles have hit in Israel and they are returning fire back to hammas and Syria.

Ron, not true. The majority of those missiles were intercepted by Iron Dome.
And what does this have to do with the average Democrat? This has been going on through administration after administration, repub and democrat.

You do know that the first peace treaties between Israel and Egypt were signed because of a Democrat, right?


SDEROT, Israel — Military sources have confirmed to GlobalPost that Israeli Defense Forces targeted and killed Ahmed Jabri, the head of Hamas’ military wing, in the Gaza Strip.

“Jabri was a senior Hamas operative who served in the upper echelon of Hamas’ command and was directly responsible for executing terror attacks against the State of Israel in the past number of years,” military sources said.

The killing of Jabri came a day after Hamas launched a barrage of more than 100 missiles into southern Israel, most of which were intercepted by the country’s Iron dome missile protection system. The attack also comes just two months before the scheduled national elections in Israel.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
14,238
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
Survival,, the govt HQ was attacked a few days ago in Libya by the militia. The militias now control libya.

Actually, the question was what Hamas launching missiles had to do with the average democrat.......
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
So the Libya mess means that it's Obama's fault that Hamas hates Israel?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
Dismal facts, like 332 to 206.........
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
"...an example of a non thinking democrat."

Not true. I just try to engage thoughtfully with those who are capable of having thoughtful dialogue, and actually learn something.

Unfortunately, there isn't much opportunity to do that in these polititard threads, so most of the time it's just useless ranting bantering. It's entertaining for a while...then it gets boring.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
Not true. I just try to engage thoughtfully with those who are capable of having thoughtful dialogue, and actually learn something.

Unfortunately, there isn't much opportunity to do that in these polititard threads, so most of the time it's just useless ranting bantering. It's entertaining for a while...then it gets boring.

I think this is largely a wound we've inflicted on each other. Last week there was a thread that had one thoughtful post after another, until certain posters started lobbing insults, and the targets responded in kind. Eventually, an allegation of LEB participation vaporized it. Heaven forbid that we permit any LEB-like participation! Not only did the thread disappear from the board, every post did, too.

It isn't easy to ignore insults or opportunities for cheap shots, but we're unlikely to get a meaningful discussion unless we show some self-restraint.

I'm sorry I haven't been inclined to enter the fray much in the past few weeks, Ron. I feel like I've abandoned you in the midst of battle, but when the overwhelming majority of the posters seem intent on bashing the non-Democrats without regard to any principles of dialogue, much less good advocacy, I don't see the point.

John
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 14, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
And this is the typical Repug:

TAMPA, Fla. (AP) — When news vans camped outside her stately home, a Florida socialite tied to the Gen. David Petraeus sex scandal fell back on her informal credentials as a social ambassador for Tampa society and top military brass: She asked police for diplomatic protection.

In the phone call to authorities, Jill Kelley, a party hostess and unofficial social liaison for leaders of the U.S. military's Central Command in Tampa, cited her status as an honorary consul general while complaining about news vans that had descended on her two-story brick home overlooking Tampa Bay.

"You know, I don't know if by any chance, because I'm an honorary consul general, so I have inviolability, so they should not be able to cross my property. I don't know if you want to get diplomatic protection involved as well," she told the 911 dispatcher Monday.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 14, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
"...the overwhelming majority of the posters seem intent on bashing the without regard to any principles of dialogue, much less good advocacy, I don't see the point."


Come on, John. This dynamic has been implicit to these threads from the start. The 'quality' (word used verrrrry loosely) of the dialogue varies only slightly over time, but more times than not is just bantering, nitpicking, gotchas, closed-minded ranting, interspersed with a few funny pictures or Locker's cameltoe. (Not that Locker has a cameltoe...you know what I mean.)

My observation of the tone of this thread (and the media & public) in the last coupla months has been that it became increasingly heated, each side sure that 'they got this'. Then came that cold slap of reality, and Republicans are once again in retreat, licking their wounds, angry as ever, scheming for another comeback, blaming the American public for abandoning morality in favor of their own selfish interests....

Yeah, that's surely a strategy for success.


Edit: 'I was on a radio talk show last night for a short time-"

Seriously? What channel? Is it archived somewhere?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 14, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
"But to think that somehow because the election is over so all in the past is done isnt thinking clearly."

Who's suggesting such a thing besides yourself?

We're just happy that there's a chance we will be moving FORWARD, instead of reverting to the failed, backward policies of the GOP.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 14, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
In other words,, Libya is 10 times worse than it was under Kadufus. Yet the current admin said it was a GREAT thing in taking out kadufus - and that it would 'free libya' ... It HASNT done anything but make libya worse.

In all your hyperventilating hysteria you just don't get it, do you?

The "Arab Spring" wasn't a US foreign policy initiative gone bad - it was a US foreign policy response to events the people of North Africa and the Mideast initiated. It's another chapter in the long evolution of a post-colonial world. Get it? They are not us and Walmart and 7-11 aren't moving into Benghazi anytime soon.

Why? BECAUSE THEY JUST HAD A REVOLUTION AGAINST THEIR GOVERNMENT and won. A primary and unavoidable result of that is now the newly formed government doesn't have a military or national police presence so militias have taken over. Duh. And hey, don't like the resulting tribal, sectarian, and regional instability and internecine jousting? Bummer dude - but then you were the same guys screeching at the top of your lungs about Lockerbie and those damn Gaddafis forever.

And, as Maddow said, "Benghazi was an attack on us; not a scandal by us" (oh, and where was your ranting during Iran-Contragate?).

You have reduced yourself to such a simplistic black and white worldview as to be completely childish. And, hey, Iraq and Afghanistan have been a colossal f*#k-up of epic, monumental and historic proportions compared to Libya and was a genuinely treasonous conspiracy. Why aren't you folks on the right utterly enraged by those wars given they're still going on and Americans are still dying in them?

Get a f*#king grip dude, you're devolving into complete irrelevance.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 14, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
Ron, you have been so rabidly fixated and perseverating about Libya in the last several weeks that it's impossible to see it as anything more than partisan political opportunism.

Of course Libya deserves investigation. But your reaction to it is waaaaaay out of proportion to its scale.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 14, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
The issue is you don't get it, you don't see the bigger picture anywhere and especially in North Africa and the Mideast. Nothing has been 'won' anywhere and all we did was stir up hornets nests across the region and are now furiously juggling as a result. Afghanistan? The northern warlords are reorganizing and rearming in the wake of our retreat. Why? And what does that mean?

Let me tell you. The Taliban came to power due to the abuses of the Warlords, when we leave it will be like we were never even there except now the Chinese own the place and both wars have benefited Iran enormously. In simpler words - a complete waste of time and geopolitical strategy failure of grand proportions with rippling effects across the Mideast. We spent 4-6 trillion of your dollars and the primary winners are Iran and China - so much so that you can almost make the case W, Cheney and Rumsfeld were Iranian or Chinese agents.

And that outcome is the direct price of the neocons trying to do an end run around the central issue of Palestinian / Israeli peace by instead f*#king around with fantasy 'dominos' elsewhere in Mideast rather than confronting the problem head on.

Don't like what you see in North Africa and the Mideast? Don't like an emboldened Iran? Don't like NDAA 2013 bill? Bummer dude - they are all outfalls and a direct result of the neocon strategy once they took over the Whitehouse as the Bush administration. We'll be cleaning up their mess for decades to come both over there and here at home.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 14, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
"He fed the Libya revolt" - that's right, because once these babies go off you are either involved or irrelevant and irrelevant is not something you want to be once your find yourself juggling furiously. There was zero option in our response. Zero. Again, it's not about Libya, or Syria, or Iran, it's about all of them together and Libya is just the ripples hitting the other side of the tub.

Messy, no doubt - welcome to the real world. We as Americans either stick our heads in the sands and are thereby blinded, or we start to get a grip on things and stay out in front of the sh#t storm the Bush administration has unleashed which is exactly what we are and should be doing. And we'll be playing this little nightmare out again and again as the ripples wash back and forth over the region for at least the next decade or two so hitch up your panties - we're in it for the long haul now.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 14, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
P.S. And it wasn't rocket science that 'democracy' in the Arab world might take on a religious tone we might not like, but that seems completely lost on the neocons who are still in disbelief the world isn't populated by middle-aged, protestant, dollar-driven white males. Have you ever perused this gem of a manifesto which launched the clusterf*#k?

http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

or this one:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

or:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/AttackIraq-Nov16,98.pdf
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 14, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
The policies were designed to aid the good when they fed the bad. Now we repeat it over and over- pretty much the definition of insanity.

We are NOT repeating it over and over in Libya, Syria, and most especially Iran. We are staying engage but cautious because at this point it's pretty damn hard to predict the future and there are no direct ways to intervene in what has been unleashed. Do you really think the events in Benghazi would have unfolded any differently under McCain? They wouldn't have - everything would be exactly as it today because - Obama or McCain - we are playing the hand dealt us by the Bush administration and the legacy of the neocon fantasy that all we needed to do was knock over one of those Mideast dominos and a whiteboy democracy would spread like wildfire.

The neocons were so utterly clueless it staggers the imagination and what's truly frightening is the remnants of their cadre were Romney's military and foreign policy advisers.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 15, 2012 - 06:13pm PT
You're reading and quoting the John Birch Society and wonder why people think you're more than a tad hysterical and out of touch with reality?
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 15, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
The New American | Home
http://www.thenewamerican.com/
Magazine of the John Birch Society, providing in-depth reporting on U.S. and worldwide issues and events. Includes weekly features, back issue archive, and ...

Worth paying attention to your sources Ron. And if your google searches keep turning up hits like that on the top, you might want to question what your search terms are too.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 15, 2012 - 08:39pm PT
Decimating the Military: Obama’s “Night of the Long Knives”?

Dude, you really expect something resembling discussion when you link to rubbish like that?

That article is a bunch of conjecture, rubbish assertions and quotes from right wing hacks.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 15, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
Not links like that one which are from people who make a living on hysteria and hype. No one is firing admirals and generals as part of a conspiracy, Benghazi or otherwise. You just seem to be among the ranks highly prone to conspiracy theories, not sure why they appeal to you. But in general the folks I see so afflicted have a high general identification with being a victim.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 15, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
Not to mention that the entire premise is fatally flawed. If Obama had dirt on military brass and wanted to use it to somehow influence the narrative of Benghazi, any leverage was lost when the story was made public.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 15, 2012 - 09:17pm PT
Ron, Kip Ward was under investigation way before Benghazi and sometimes events just create a circumstance where cleaning house and reorganizing is the appropriate response of the day.

WASHINGTON (AP) Aug 17, 5:50 PM (ET) - The four-star general who headed U.S. Africa Command used military vehicles to shuttle his wife on shopping trips and to a spa and billed the government for a refueling stop overnight in Bermuda, where the couple stayed in a $750 suite, a Defense Department investigation has found.

A 99-page report alleges excessive unauthorized spending and travel costs for Gen. William "Kip" Ward, including lengthy stays at lavish hotels for Ward, his wife and his staff members, and the use of five-vehicle motorcades when he traveled to Washington.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20120817/DA0NBPFO0.html

Keep in mind too that AFRICOM isn't exactly any general's idea of an ideal posting and it appears there may be issues with AFRICOM culture just as there are with CENTCOM culture. In fact, it seems like between Lackland, the Airforce Academy, and these commands there needs to be some command realignment.

But nothing whatsoever about these changes rises anywhere near the level of conspiracy.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 15, 2012 - 09:19pm PT
Ron, from your original post:

Many Generals and and Admiral have been demoted and or removed in the LAST MONTH! ?? Excuses from sexual email innuendos to spending on trips have been used.. This is unprecedented - that so many TOP level military officials have been removed or demoted. In the light of upcoming wars, one can only be left to wonder why you would remove those with experience.

The story you linked to made assertions about Petraeus among others (viz: that his ouster had something to do with a coverup about Benghazi). . If that story isn't "public" I don't know what would satisfy your criteria.

Think about it. Let's say you are an evil Muslim president that has dirt on the head of the CIA (forget for a moment what an unusual switch of events that would be) and wish to use that to influence his testimony so as to affect the narrative. Do you make the story public?
dirtbag

climber
Nov 15, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 18, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 18, 2012 - 12:27pm PT
Ron...just think ...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 18, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
What i want to hear is how it was to be in the situation room watching live as two brave badass Americans fought to their deaths? Did they have snacks and drinks brought in?

Oh, is that how you did it as a LEO? You seem to know.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 18, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
Ron, you are such an unpatriotic chimp.

You would have been the one who would have fought tooth and nail against our own revolution. You would have been petitioning the king to wipe out the colonials, every man woman and child, and repopulating with loyal patriots.

It is none of your G*ddamn business what goes on in other countries, as their citizens attempt to break free from various dictators. Your continuing attempt to subjugate people as a slavemaster is the ugliest part of America. You appear to think that the worst thing to happen in our history was giving up slavery. You just want the slaves to be muslim.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 18, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
I don't know what the big deal about Benghazi is that anyone would need to be screwed with over it? The whole Muslim world was fired up and protesting in many countries at our embassies, and some terrorists used the occasion to jump in and kill some people in one country. Of course in the fog of all that, preliminary information turned out to be wrong. Big deal. Happens virtually everytime. Bush seemed to Indicate 9-11 was done by Iraq when it first happened.

Even if they tried to cover up some aspects of it, that happens everytime too in military and foreign stuff in janky countries.

This whole general thing..so bunk.

.
to paraphrase Bill Maher on the Petraeus drama...

A Republican general has an affair with a Republican biographer who sends threatening emails to a Republican socialite who calls her Republican friend in the FBI who notifies Republican House Majority Leader Eric Cantor ....

Obama's fault.

Now I'm not saying there's not something wrong in all that, but that sort of wrong thing has been a regular part of our military and foreign policies for many, many years.. you only seem to care with the other party is in charge. Fine, if you want to reform the NDAA, and the stinking military industrial complex, I'm all for it. It's just not an Obama thing
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 18, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
I would ask how many boy scout groups youve taught,

NOW we know!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 18, 2012 - 01:40pm PT
Ron, NONE of that gives you a pass to tear down the US, to subjugate people as a slavemaster, nor any other anti-American BS that you advocate.

I couldn't care less how much of that Joseph McCarthy did.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 18, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
hhhmmmm lemme see,,, im against violent radical islamists,, gang bangers and a law (NDAA 2103) which was first written long ago by hitlers staff.

And that makes me somehow unpatriotic? Because im against socialism's that will bankrupt us in no time makes me unpatriotic?


Yes, you pink slime, when you state that the Congress of the United States is Hitler's Staff, you are unpatriotic scum.

Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Nov 18, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
limp wristed

This is devolving quickly....
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 18, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
"...indeed Bush pulled some heavy duty BS in engaging Iraq-and now Obama is doing the same. "


Just to entertain your kool-aid soaked mind for a minute...

You're drawing an equivalency between the Shrub/Neocon shenanigans that placed us squarely and purposely into a pointless war with the Obama Administration's supposed inadequate security efforts & cover-up attempts in Libya?

Those two are equivalent?

Really?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 18, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
"The NDAA language is VERY MUCH the same as Nazi Germany. That is what i said.."

Another weird equivalency.

And pretty slimy, at that.

You guys are pretty desperate these days.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 18, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
The NDAA language is VERY MUCH the same as Nazi Germany. That is what i said..


YOUR language is VERY MUCH like that of the KKK, the Nazi's, the Stalinists, all of the fascists of history.

What does that tell us about you?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 18, 2012 - 04:35pm PT
Now TELL ME what youve done for our country. You wanna call my patriotism out -fine. Im callin yours. GIVE ME YOUR LIST or your just another limp wristed malingerer...

You have this bizarre concept that, instead of doing things because you love your country, you are accumulating "get out free" cards that allow you to do anything TO your country.

You appear to be in the same category of Aldrich Ames and other traitors, who thought that their life of public service allowed them to be traitors, and it is just fine.

I couldn't care less about your list of accomplishment, while you trash your country. Stand by your words, don't hide behind your history.
OR

Trad climber
Nov 18, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
YOUR language is VERY MUCH like that of the KKK, the Nazi's, the Stalinists, all of the fascists of history.

What does that tell us about you?

Really? I may not agree with Ron all the time but that statement is absurd. TOTAL FAIL.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 18, 2012 - 06:55pm PT
Republicans - the party of hysteria and drama.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 18, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
edit: as for the NDAA ,, indeed it isnt just a dem or repub thing,,it IS a downright COMMUNISTIC thing.

Big difference between Communism and Fascism,

We've got the basis for Fascism in place but more subtle.

Sorta like Imperialism. Countries used to have to invade a country and dominate them in order to have an empire. now we do it with trade policies, the world bank, IMF, and other tricks. We make them keep their own slaves to us so we don't have to.

Same with Fascism (Tyrannic government and Corporations in cahoots) The Elite money and power rule us but keep us from even realizing that they've bought the system and the laws being passed are ready to use against us if we wake up and try to change things

PEace

karl
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 19, 2012 - 12:42am PT
OR, Ron likes to make sweeping generalizations, drawing similarities to things that are in no way related, like the Congress and Nazis. This is his approach, and I just get tired of it.

I thought he'd see how he liked the technique applied to him. Apparently, he feels that his diminishes his worth and contributions. Of course, that would not apply to anything or anyone that HE attacked in the same way.

Perhaps he might open his eyes.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Nov 20, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
How exactly can the government pay for all of the stuff that people want without raising their taxes? By borrowing of course.

What's worse, tax-and-spend liberals or borrow-and-spend conservatives?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 20, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
The average Republican has no idea how to work with others.


Once the poster child for the GOP, NJ governor Christie is now on the GOP sh#t list for working with Obama when his state became a disaster zone.


When will they learn that the world is made up of people, and many are not white men.

Ron, why do Republicans hate women??
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 20, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
THANKS RON FOR SPREADING SOME TRUTH!!!!!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 20, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
OK Ron, Why do you hate to help those in need?

Here's the bolded text from your post:

1.4. The developmental and environmental objectives of Agenda 21 will require a substantial flow of new and additional financial resources to developing countries, in order to cover the incremental costs for the actions they have to undertake to deal with global environmental problems and to accelerate sustainable development.



And if all the Republicans you know love women, they why are they still Republicans when the GOP hates women??
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 20, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
If you keep reading the mindless, inflammatory swill from the John Birch Society, Grover Norquist's blog, and the clueless crew at American 'Thinker' you are just going to remain an open sore pumped full of so many lies and distortions you'll end up rabidly machine-gun posting complete bullshit on a rock climbing blog. Oops, too late.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 20, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
Ron, that's because it's all mindless bullsh#t.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 20, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
Again, 95% of it is all mindless bullsh#t, and when you wrap 5% of legitimate concerns in an enormous clusterf*#k of raging bullshit you just end up like DT and your valid points don't end up getting due consideration.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 20, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
Ron, here's my take on U.N. Agenda 21: You couldn't fight for a more noble cause.

1.1. Humanity stands at a defining moment in history. We are confronted with a perpetuation of disparities between and within nations, a worsening of poverty, hunger, ill health and illiteracy, and the continuing deterioration of the ecosystems on which we depend for our well-being. However, integration of environment and development concerns and greater attention to them will lead to the fulfilment of basic needs, improved living standards for all, better protected and managed ecosystems and a safer, more prosperous future. No nation can achieve this on its own; but together we can - in a global partnership for sustainable development.

I understand you don't want to help others by actually paying for a better world ecosystem. However, consider that the GOP started two unfunded wars, and we're paying BILLION$, in not trillion$, on those wars.

Chew on that.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 20, 2012 - 06:52pm PT
But you guys do keep it up - the harder you dig in the more likely it is the Whiteyhouse and Senate will remain in democratic hands and we'll slowly chip away at the House over the next 12 years. In fact, all disaffected, white males suffering from feelings of persecution and a victim-complex should harden their radical right positions so the tide in the house turns that much faster.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 20, 2012 - 07:34pm PT
So STFU with the war shet.

Look out, The Chief is here with his ill manners.




Go away... you do not know the history of US involvement in the SE ASIA conflict HEDGE.


Now isn't that precious. The Chief telling somebody to "Go away..."
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 20, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
I'm all for dissing the asshats of both parties that got us into Vietnam, kept us in Vietnam, and that goes for the different asshats responsible for Iraq

We have to start prosecuting war crimes on the higher level people who lie and cheat to get us into war, or we just keep doing it

Peace

karl
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 20, 2012 - 08:13pm PT
The Democrats and Republicans share about equal responsibility for getting the USA into the Vietnamese conflict, and for bungling it and the eventual withdrawal. And most of the victims were Viet, Laotian and Cambodian civilians.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 20, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
Far from "your average", but certainly a sentiment represented by the "progressive" leadership.

dirtbag

climber
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:45am PT
dirtbag

climber
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:45am PT
dirtbag

climber
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:46am PT
Suck it, dumfukk rightwingers...you've been spanked.



donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 21, 2012 - 11:38am PT
Your average Democrat will be especially thankful tomorrow.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:03pm PT
Far from "your average", but certainly a sentiment represented by the "progressive" leadership.

WHAT A BUNCH OF BULLSH#T!!!

That photo and your statement have nothing to do with each other, as#@&%e.

Ooooo, repugnicans would be all silent and respectful, but a dem wouldn't.

Go phuk yerself, LOSER!

I'd rather be progressive than regressive any day!
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:41pm PT
you're our Canary Ron. You'll be the first to go...
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
"Average Democrat" images: http://www.google.ca/search?q=average+democrat&hl=en&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=2BKtUM3TOYrPigLJl4D4Dw&ved=0CAQQ_AUoAA&biw=1280&bih=831
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
So Ron finally comes clean:

so here we are again,, more "policing" offered up by our govt..Theres wars and theres there is policing. Policing never has worked for anything..

The former LEO tells us the truth that his time in that job "never worked for anything", and that he was simply another one of those 47% that Romney talked about....that do nothing but sit around collecting welfare (oh, I mean their salary)

What guilt, what shame.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 21, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
Actually, the first "picture" of a "typical Democrat" is a caricature of Romney: http://www.google.ca/search?q=typical+democrat+pictures&hl=en&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=oRetULilJajtiQLplIDYDA&ved=0CAQQ_AUoAA&biw=1280&bih=831
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 21, 2012 - 01:40pm PT
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 21, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
Ron, and here I thought you said NV was pumping out the most gang bangers these days....
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 21, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
At least California doesn't spread it's debt around. We pay out to the rest of the country and we've taken great steps to take care of our debt with Prop 30 and cuts.

Something the failed Schwarzenegger and repubs in assembly refused to do. Good riddance.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 21, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
I would like you to send it to all the CA families who have lost soldiers if you stand behind it.


Amen. Most of the guys I served with were actually blue staters, not that it means a helluva lot. Once your uniform is on you try to look after your brothers no matter where they're from.

I'm from a blue state and I served in a much more hard core place than the forest service Ron, just sayin'.

Donini too.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Nov 21, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
Y'all just got to turn off that Fox. Makes a person crazy.
Jimmy Russells

climber
Nov 21, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
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healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 21, 2012 - 03:48pm PT
It's just indicative of the delusion which represents why we now have such a ridiculous lock on 2016 and 2020.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 21, 2012 - 06:34pm PT


Recent twitter screen shots
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 21, 2012 - 06:38pm PT
Ahh.....political rants from all sides. I'm an average democrat, I think a little gloating is in order.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 21, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
Now don't try to get me into political debates. I just got back from seven perfect days in Cochies Stronghold, climbing, eating great cuisine and basking in the glow of 11/7!
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
SLO, Ca
Nov 21, 2012 - 06:47pm PT
How did you like the stronghold? One of my favorite places. What did you do?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 21, 2012 - 06:51pm PT
Loved it! Beautiful place and great weather. Did End Game, Cragaholics Dream, Unknown 15 left of Peacemaker, and a bunch of shorter climbs like Tombstone Crack.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
SLO, Ca
Nov 21, 2012 - 06:56pm PT
Nice you got to climb on the east AND west side. Glad you had fun.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 22, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
Is that you fatrad?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 22, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
Turkey-day break.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 23, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
...1967 borders...

Which is exactly what should happen. And at this point, when Israel's charade in participating in peace talks is apparent to everyone, they should definitely just go ahead and declare statehood.

And Ron, you seem to have a real Disney, fairytale sense of what should be happening in the wake of revolutions against long entrenched despots. You were expecting something other than an extended period of complete chaos? For all intents and purposes, you sound like an drama queen Qaddafi and Assad supporter.

P.S. The UN is like the ultimate rabid wingnut litmus test. For that purpose alone, it's a veritable gleaming beacon on a hill. Consider extracting your head from John Birch's ass.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 23, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
And you're reading David Horowitz? For f*#k sake man - he's one of the neocons part and parcel responsible for everything you are completely hysterically bitching about!!!

And now you read his tripe and hanging on every word? WTF? What is you like about him? The 180 degree swings in his unswerving moral and political compass? The family values on display with his fourth wife? Or maybe it's his belated disavowal of the neocon domino theory which - let's give'em some credit - was at least partially right, even if tipping that first domino plunged the region into ever spreading chaos and instability instead of a republican, god-given, suburban-whiteboy democracy.

Jesus dude, you really need to think this sh#t through better as your abject hysteria is essentially rendering you blind.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 23, 2012 - 05:43pm PT
These links you posted ARE David Horowitz:

http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/is-obama-selling-out-the-king-of-jordan-to-the-muslim-brotherhood/

http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/biden-admits-obama-is-arming-muslim-brotherhood-to-take-over-syria/

You really need to vet your sources.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 23, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
So now you're telling me I need to read David Horowitz. Hey, trust me, the very shitstorm your complaining about is exactly because guys like you read David Horowitz. And now you don't like the results?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 23, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
Those are articles you posted up, not me. Yes, David Greenfield wrote them but they are up on David Horowitz's Frontpage blog for some very specific reasons which you just aren't getting. And those reasons are exactly why and how the Mideast ended up in the very shitstorm you are now so utterly hysterical about.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 23, 2012 - 06:55pm PT
The brotherhood is simply taking advantage of the situation David Horowitz and the neocons created. The very policies you continually espouse ARE the reason the brotherhood is now in a commanding position - you're like a nightmarish self-referencing and self-fulfilling prophecy. Sure, keep creating situations you can then leap on stage and be hysterical about. The past? The one you're so intent on repeating? Dude, your rearview mirror must have off a decade ago. And you don't like the way the dominoes fell? Bummer, man, real bummer.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 23, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
He created the Libyan chaos also.

Obama DID NOT 'create' the Libyan chaos in any way shape or form. Once again for the tenth time, we responded to native events inside Libya because to not do so renders us irrelevant. We will now be responding to events across the region as the dominoes continue to fall and that's the hand Obama was dealt by the neocons.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 23, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
Ron, your posts on the Middle East -- and I say this sincerely, not trying to be a dick -- seem to be lacking an understanding of historical context. Might I recommend Fromkin's A Peace to End All Peace. It's not perfect but it's probably the best single volume work on the topic and is a good read to boot. Also, while the time period covered may seem like ancient history, I think you'll be surprised at how relevant it is to current conflicts.

Cheers,

-S
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 23, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
It's all Obomers fault.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 29, 2012 - 08:04pm PT
Looks like Benghazi may have been a Russian-sponsored hit job on a CIA safe-house. Gun-running from Libya to Syria.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/51346#.ULU_grl0qGc.email

This could get nasty...
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 29, 2012 - 08:24pm PT
Well if that's true Bluey, of course the government wouldn't be forthcoming in announcing to the public what went down and why. Is the public entitled to all our military secrets? If so, why is Brad Manning on trial?

The GOP didn't seem to care about secret CIA prisons when Bush was in charge

PEace

Karl
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 29, 2012 - 08:28pm PT
Karl, ask yourself why "embassy staff" of 30 has not been heard from since the incident. These were the people the retired SEALs actually saved and got out safely.

Where the f*#k are these people? They saw the whole deal go down! No comments from them?

They were all CIA, and are being hushed up.

EDIT:
The GOP didn't seem to care about secret CIA prisons when Bush was in charge

Didn't they admit, eventually, that they were needed? On foreign soil?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 29, 2012 - 09:21pm PT
blue- i think you're a right wing neo con extreme nutjob...

you think I'm a left wing commie liberal nutjob...

f*#k this sh#t...

let's go cragging1111!!!666
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 29, 2012 - 09:24pm PT

Is a racist with a cart pusher
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 29, 2012 - 09:55pm PT
f*#k this sh#t...

let's go cragging1111!!!666


Roger that, Wade. This weekend looks bad though.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 12:04am PT
Part 2 of the series where Americans died in Libya because of a botched gun-running deal to Syria. With a little trigger help from our Iranian "friends".

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/51400

Thanks Saudi Arabia, and thanks Obama!
Chinchen

climber
Way out there....
Dec 1, 2012 - 12:10am PT
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 12:15am PT
Part 2 of the series where Americans died in Libya because of a botched gun-running deal to Syria. With a little trigger help from our Iranian "friends".

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/51400

Thanks Saudi Arabia, and thanks Obama!

At least Bush call it like it was immediately! And retaliated!

Obama lied and people died!
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Dec 1, 2012 - 12:17am PT
some people just are not that smart. what can you do?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 12:24am PT

some people just are not that smart. what can you do?


You must be referencing the media that ignores this issue. I totally concur with you, Doug.

Spot on, bra!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 12:30am PT
Are you really going to ignore the story, Jg? Why? Just call me stupid? Is that the typical tactic you f*#kers are going to fall back to?

I thought you were smart, and I was dumb. Let's discuss it, you, me, and Doug and you can prove that I'm a f*#king moron.

Right?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 12:38am PT
Do we have dick-shrivel from Jg and Doug???? WTF?

Let's discuss. Put up, or STFU!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 12:53am PT
There is no story. Libya is a dangerous place. South Central is a dangerous place.

Tom Ricks on FauxNews the other day pretty much said it all - 100's of dead private contractors in the ME under Bush, and a proven liar of a Sec State in Condi Rice.

You're just not smart enough to recognize ideological blinders when you see them (or much else, for that matter).

Um, no. You obviously didn't read the story. Benghazi was NOT a consulate but a CIA operations center for North Africa. They were running guns from deposed Libyan military to Syrian rebels for stage-2 attack on Assad in Syria. Yes, we are supplying covery weapons to Syrian terrorists that people call 'freedom fighters'.

The Russians and Turks didn't like this and called in a hit on our CIA station. The SEALs on the ground were denied assistence by the White House because this turned into a shitstorm.

Stevens was prolly CIA, and Ambassador by proxy. Read the links I provided, they make more sense than all the other bullshit flying around.

We were set up by Russians, Turks, and attacked by Iranian-backed elite squads. It all fits.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 1, 2012 - 12:55am PT
jdhedge cuts to truth.

"You must be referencing the media that ignores this issue."

Nope.

We're talking about you.


Yep!

(I do hope that you can someday step away from your conservative mind-set, and really think about your life-style versus your right-wing political beliefs.)

Bluering!


Please Think, rather than just reacting!

John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:03am PT
At least Bush call it like it was immediately! And retaliated!

Obama lied and people died!

daaayaaamm.. thats funny.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:06am PT
Yep!

(I do hope that you can someday step away from your conservative mind-set, and really think about your life-style versus your right-wing political beliefs.)

Bluering!


Please Think, rather than just reacting!


Maybe you should follow your own advice! Read the story. And then question what you're being sold!

You people are full of crap, and you can marginalize me as much as you need, but I ain't going away, bro.

I dare you to read this; http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/51346

part 2 follows...

EDIT:
Not interested in speculative wingnut gibberish, sorry.

You idiots will believe whatever you want - that's why your party is spinning in the drain

Which it deserves for pandering to you.

Who's the moron and uninformed one?
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:07am PT
And retardiated!

Oh lordy thats funny..
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:11am PT
You people laugh at the expense of 4 dead Americans who could have been saved. 2 of those saved the lives of over 26 people.

Laugh it up, as#@&%es! F*#k you!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:18am PT
You f*#king asshats don't realize what happened. 2 guys stood their ground and defended 26-30 people.

The people got out. The SEALs died. I don't think you realize what those 2 men did. Maybe you had to be there.

Keep calling me a maroon though, that's really hilarious....

Assholes./
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:21am PT
You people laugh at the expense of 4 dead Americans who could have been saved

Um.. no.. I do NOT laugh at their expense. And no.. we could not have saved them. Starting a full on war would not have saved them. It would have just involved us in much bigger problems. Problems in which many more Americans would have died. You can't go in with gunships blazing every time someone is in danger. No matter how much you would like to believe so.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:22am PT
Please try to understand how stupid you look posting that, and how much adults laugh at, and pity, the childish naiveté and willful ignorance involved in placing a shred of credence in it.

And kudos on being a functioning member of society, if that's your threshold of believability - being unable to discern fiction from reality must be challenging in day-to-day life.

But the admin. story and Susan Rice's story was so credible? And we can't criticize that OBVIOUS lie?

No, let's criticize what appears to be the most obvious scenario, and we'll discredit it.

You've been played...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:23am PT
Part 2 of the series where Americans died in Libya because of a botched gun-running deal to Syria. With a little trigger help from our Iranian "friends".

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/51400

Thanks Saudi Arabia, and thanks Obama!

At least Bush called it like it was immediately! And retaliated!

Obama lied and people died!
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:24am PT
And by the way.. you marginalize yourself. None of us has to do anything except watch. Its sad if you ask me.

You have no idea how much I love the ocean, or what I have done to help it, yet on another thread you claimed that you "prolly" love it more then any of us. Thats just plain foolish since you don't know me.

Have you ever gone and done a beach clean up?
Have you ever gone and cleaned animals after an oil spill?

What exactly have you done to tangibly show your love of the ocean big man?

the ocean kept me alive for a bunch of years. Can you say the same?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:34am PT
Neither were you, or the "gov't insider" who wrote the article you're having a seizure over.

You haven't the faintest clue what actually happened. The WH didn't, the CIA didn't - but you do.

Again, please realize that you are projecting your stupidity onto us. You are too dumb to understand how dumb you are. We're not.

K?


Did you read anything? Apparently not. Did you hear what the dude said? No. We can't have this discussion.

There were 2 f*#king drones overhead. They spotted 3 teams of 12 operatives. That kind of resolution gives you a key on the battlefield. They saw everything!

Can you please read before you tell me I know nothing! ANd yeah you can call this guy a liar, or whatever, but his story is the best fit for what apparently happened, including the cop who was taking pics of the compound. That was texted by the CIA consul on a gaming forum hours before stating, "I hope I don't die tonight". He did. That was Smith.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:38am PT
Doug, Nature, is such a f*#king pussy.......

Call names, insults and run.
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:45am PT
the time line

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/09/world/africa/libya-benghazi-timeline/index.html
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:46am PT
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57540712/military-response-to-benghazi-attack-questioned/

2 drones

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/10/gop-demands-to-see-benghazi-drone-information-including-whether-they-were-weaponized-on-9-11/
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:46am PT
At least Bush called it like it was immediately! And retaliated!

WTF! First they tried to blame Iraq, and then invaded Afghanistan even though it was Saudi Money and Saudi Hijackers.

Then they did invade Iraq based on cooked up information they knew were lies and it cost a Trillion bucks and 5000 Americans lives and you didn't get you panties in a bunch about that!

It happens ALL the time that information is unclear right during an incident. Embassies were being protested all over the Muslim world. What's your big deal?

It's not like it would have hurt the Administration any to just say "We think "Al Queda" did it! Bush used to say that all time even when it wasn't true

PEace

karl
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:48am PT
two unarmed drones. two separate attacks.

I suppose they could have flown the drones into the attackers..
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:51am PT
It happens ALL the time that information is unclear right during an incident. Embassies were being protested all over the Muslim world. What's your big deal?

My 'big deal' is that 4 Americans died to save 25-30 others, and it DIDN't HAVE TO HAPPEN!!!

We had support. But WE chose not to send it,

EDIT: Hey moron, follow closely;

two unarmed drones. two separate attacks.

I suppose they could have flown the drones into the attackers..


He was talking about surveillance, not Hellfire-equipped Drones. Just to see!
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:56am PT
and it DIDN't HAVE TO HAPPEN!!!

We had support. But WE chose not to send it,

No one could have saved the two people who died in the initial attack.

Any forces sent would not have saved the last two guys because that was an attack at a completely different facility.

There were 6 CIA security team members who were sent after the first attack. They could not have know about the second attack until it happened.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:00am PT
YOU don't know what you're talking about, and WE know it.


Have you been following this story, dude? There was an AC-130 Gunship in the f*#king air! They were told to back off.

The SEAL was designating his targets with a laser so the Gunship could unload. The assault team had gear to pick up his laser (infra-red gogs) and they killed the SEAL.

John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:04am PT
what do you base your story that there was a gunship over the scene?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:08am PT
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/10/26/ac-130u-gunship-was-on-scene-in-benghazi-obama-admin-refused-to-let-it-fire/

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012/10/27/U-S-Had-Two-Drones-AC-130-Gunship-and-Targets-Painted-In-Benghazi-But-Obama-Didn-t-Pull-The-Trigger

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:12am PT
For which you have not one shred of sourced reporting.

Bingo!!! That is the problem! No MSM reporting.

Who would you trust as a solid source? Not FOX, I presume.
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:15am PT
um.. lets see.. according to your source there were planes based 480 miles away.

It also says the attacks lasted over 4 hours, implying that there was plenty of time for them to get there.

Nyet.. not true. the first attack started at 9.42 PM. All personnel were evacuated by 11:30 PM By this time two were dead. So by this time everything was seemly under control.

Second attack happened at 5:15. It doesn't say how soon the two former seals died. But there was a 6 man CIA team in Benghazi at that time, but they were not at that location it appears.

It was a CIA operation from the beginning. we do not send military planes over sovereign nations without their permission. Unless we want to start a war.

Did Bush start any wars based on how many embassy personnel dying on his watch? Do you know?
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:20am PT
Both your reports only say that there was a gunship in the area. They don't say that they were overhead. In fact, they say that they were stationed 480 miles away.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:20am PT
um.. lets see.. according to your source there were planes based 480 miles away.

It also says the attacks lasted over 4 hours, implying that there was plenty of time for them to get there.

Nyet.. not true. the first attack started at 9.42 PM. All personnel were evacuated by 11:30 PM By this time two were dead. So by this time everything was seemly under control.

Second attack happened at 5:15. It doesn't say how soon the two former seals died. But there was a 6 man CIA team in Benghazi at that time, but they were not at that location it appears.

It was a CIA operation from the beginning. we do not send military planes over sovereign nations without their permission. Unless we want to start a war.

Did Bush start any wars based on how many embassy personnel dying on his watch? Do you know?


The attack lasted 9 hours, what are you reading? Where did you get that timeline?
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:23am PT
I posted the official timeline.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:24am PT
Both your reports only say that there was a gunship in the area. They don't say that they were overhead. In fact, they say that they were stationed 480 miles away.


ReallY??? are you going to mince sh#t like this???? If they f*#king bird was on the ground, it was 2 hrs away. I Heard it was already airborne. It's a 2 hr flight!
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:26am PT
The first attack started at 9:42. It was completely over by 11:30. I have no idea how fast they can get one of those gunship from a base 480 miles away. Especially if it isn't manned and warmed up and ready to go, but that would seem pretty fast. They had no way of knowing that a second attack on a second facility would occur 6 hours later.
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:27am PT
Heard it was already airborne.

Thats your basic problem blue. YOu heard and you believed without verifying anything. Just like Bush's weapons of mass destruction.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:30am PT
Newsflash, Obama won, Romney lost. I can only guess that plan B is an impeachment? Why else would this story have legs?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:39am PT
Thats your basic problem blue. YOu heard and you believed without verifying anything. Just like Bush's weapons of mass destruction.


Ask yourself why an experienced Navy SEAL was in radio-contact with the higher-ups, firing on enemies, put a laser-sight on a target, and then 'lazd' the primary target. Why?

He thought he had back-up. He was reassured that the 130 was on the way. Why else would he paint a target?

Lemme guess, how would I know he painted a target??? Let's be real. Common knowledge.

EDIT;
Newsflash, Obama won, Romney lost. I can only guess that plan B is an impeachment? Why else would this story have legs?


4 dead Americans, illegal gun-running, cover-up, pick one....
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:42am PT
Yep.. and Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. .
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:45am PT
58 dead embassy employees under Bush. Cheney and Rumsfeld were kings of gun running. YOu loved them.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:45am PT
Maybe you had to be there.

And I suppose you were Blue?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:47am PT
Yep.. and Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. .


Well, some of them were used in Halabja (google it), but the rest went to ....wait.....Syria!!!!!

The only 2 Baathist Shitholes in the world.

Awesome!!!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:49am PT
And I suppose you were Blue?


What they hell does that mean, Survival?
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:51am PT
Well, some of them were used in Halabja (google it)

1988 dude..

remember what happened in 1990? First War on Iraq from US.

Remember what happened after that?

We had weapons inspectors over there. Saddam gave us the run around, but our own inspectors were confident that all weapons of mass destruction were destroyed after the first war.

But God.. or some little bird told Bush that they still had them.

Even Colin Powell is embarrassed by some of the sh#t the bush admin pulled.
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:53am PT
What they hell does that mean, Survival?

It means you weren't there either, but you act like you were.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:56am PT
I was talking about your earlier post Blue.

This one.
You f*#king asshats don't realize what happened. 2 guys stood their ground and defended 26-30 people.

The people got out. The SEALs died. I don't think you realize what those 2 men did. Maybe you had to be there.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:58am PT
Even Colin Powell is embarrassed by some of the sh#t the bush admin pulled.


Yep! Along with all the other intel from other countries. It Was just US.

Curious you avoid mentioning the Israeli strike in the desret a few years ago. And why are there threats of Syrian WND strikes on their civilians.
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:01am PT
Blue, I read the article and am still processing it. I might or might not get back later about it. But you saying this is rich:

Maybe you should follow your own advice! Read the story. And then question what you're being sold!


I distinctly remember there being a thread, no doubt about some social or political issue tht you disagreed with, in which there was a video posted and the OP was seeking discussion. You jumped in with your heartfelt and passionate perspective/opinion even though you had, admittedly, not watched the video. You went so far as to say that you didn't need to as you already knew what the guy (in the video) was going to say.

Same sh#t, it works both ways. Until that ends, if then, this wheel is just going to keep on turning and turning.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:01am PT
I like how you seem to go to bat for Assad instead of the "so called freedom fighters."

Might be my favorite part this evening. Carry on.
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:03am PT
Curious? as though I am covering up something.

Mercy.. I don't even know what you are talking about and based on our conversation so far I doubt that you do either. Except of course that you were there. Did you read dippers post on the clam company? Curious that you haven't commented on it you great big lover of the ocean.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:04am PT
You f*#king asshats don't realize what happened. 2 guys stood their ground and defended 26-30 people.

The people got out. The SEALs died. I don't think you realize what those 2 men did. Maybe you had to be there.

Funny thing, Survival. Nowadays I'd stand my ground too.

I have much love for those 2 SEALs. Obvious CIA op, but they did what they had to do and were warriors.

I'm no warrior, but I know them when I see 'em.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:08am PT
I like how you seem to go to bat for Assad instead of the "so called freedom fighters."

Might be my favorite part this evening. Carry on.


Well, I called for Mubarak over the Muzzie Brotherhood, right???

Be careful what you ask for.....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:14am PT

You're a know nothing, Blue, you don't know sh#t.
Maybe you have something relevant to add to the discussion??

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/51346

EDIT:
They were ex-SEALs. Having climbed with one, they'd be the first remind you of that distinction. They were working as security contractors, in which no way detracts from their services, but presents an entirely different scenario in military chain of command. So just call them "former SEALs" and carry on.


Fine. Just easier on the keys to call them SEALs. They were security for the CIA station.

slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:21am PT
[quote]QITNL: [/They were ex-SEALs. Having climbed with one, they'd be the first remind you of that distinction. They were working as security contractors, in which no way detracts from their services, but presents an entirely different scenario in military chain of command. So just call them "former SEALs" and carry on.]

Were they?? Do you have a link? Or maybe I missed it. If they were "contractors" it certainly would be a game changer in terms of chain of command and where hoped for support would be coming from.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:21am PT
A discussion? You don't discuss, you pontificate anti-American garbage and baseless hate speech.


Give discussion a chance, bro. Why ya gotta hate?

Wanna discuss this?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:22am PT
Well, I called for Mubarak over the Muzzie Brotherhood, right???

I don't know, did you?

It seems the people of Egypt chose someone else. But I guess maybe you're not into democracy?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:23am PT
Were they?? Do you have a link? Or maybe I missed it. If they were "contractors" it certainly would be a game changer in terms of chain of command and where hoped for support would be coming from.


CIA, bra. But the SEALs were prolly DoD contractors with all the tools of the trade.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:27am PT
I don't know, did you?

It seems the people of Egypt chose someone else. But I guess maybe you're not into democracy?


Yes, I did! Mubarak was fine. He was a dick, like Assad, but he kept sh#t stable and somewhat well.

Democracy is for idiots. Republics is where it's at, or at least Parliamentary-type gov'ts.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:29am PT
Brah. Bro. Broheim.

We've all seen years of you railing away, none the wiser for all your "discussion". The time for discussion is over. I'm just tired of such classless political behavior. There's not a moment where people like you want to see a unified country and actually WORK towards solutions. Tearing down is all your type know and it's why we voted against your ilk.


Alright. Whatever, bro....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:41am PT
Yup, it's like whatever, brah.

Americans like me are tired of ceaseless whining and no solutions. If there weren't free speech issues involved, they should outlaw asshats like you from talking your sh#t for 2 years. 2 years of listening and maybe working towards solutions. If after those 2 years you're still a whiny little asshat, well, then you get to talk your smack up to the elections. It's when you f*#kwits won't shut up even when the elections should damn well cued you to shut you up we get tired of your crap. STFU, sore loser.


You realize that while you think you're really progressive and liberated, you are espousing the same sh#t of national socialists and communists?

Can you see this? Read a f*#king history book.

Americans like me are tired of ceaseless whining and no solutions.

What f*#king solutions are those? When are the going to accrue? We do we see hope? Change?

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:53am PT
You don't have a clue how I see myself. I'm tired of you and your ilk's ceaseless whining. You're classless losers with nothing to contribute. You lose. STFU.


I don't really give f*#k about you, bro. I thought we were discussing policy. I thought we were exchanging political ideas.

Yes, I whine because I don't like the course of the country. I want to be free again, not burdened by gov't, or more rules.

Leave me alone. Gov't is too big and too intrusive!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:57am PT
Thanks for posting that, Qitnl.

May Glen rest in peace....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 04:05am PT
Exchanging, dicussing.... riiiggghht.

No government? That's anarchism. If you believe you can somehow survive without government in this day and age, you are living in a fairytale land. What you want is to get something while giving nothing, and you're too dumb to realize you support the agenda of a class you don't even belong to.


I never said no gov't. Just a lot less. Read a Constitution.
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Dec 1, 2012 - 04:08am PT
CIA, bra. But the SEALs were prolly DoD contractors with all the tools of the trade.

Blue, I'm not a bra. If they were actual SEALS they would be part of the actual military, they wouldn't have been "contractors" of any sort. There is a difference.

The military has gone further and further out contracting labor for all sorts of its needs from kitchen, laundry, janitorial, and even security details. If the security forces involved in Benghazi weren't actual military but were in reality contracted security forces it changes everything.

This is just speculation based on an above post by QITNL. Asked for a link to back it up but haven't received a response yet. I'm doing alright regardless.

Check out the book Halliburton's Army for an enlightening journey on just how far the military has gone in outsourcing its operations.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 1, 2012 - 12:27pm PT
Democracy is for idiots.

Kinda says it all.

You've only had about 1.3 million countrymen die for it.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 1, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
We can NOT expect third world countries involved in a jihad that has been going on since recorded time, to act like or be a "democracy". They have NO CLUE as to what that means.

Well, the neocons were absolutely positive that by kicking over the right domino that the Mideast would immediately be awash in convivial, white, suburban democracies - how could it possibly be otherwise?

And now you don't like the results? Dude, deal with it, it's what you voted for and likely just voted to do another round of. Romney's military and foreign policy advisers? Neocons, many from the W clan. Talk about dodging a bullet.

And the UN? The UN actually just proved it's capable of doing all we hoped it could and in this case put a dent in the total charade that has been the 'peace process" AKA the Israeli cover for continuously annexing palestinian lands. Now Israel is pretty much forced to actully stand up and state the now painfully obvious - they have no interest whatsoever in 'peace' and every interest in consolidating and expanding their acquisition of palestinian lands. So in this case, bravo for the UN calling bullshit on what's really been going on.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
So one can only assume that the UN is all for terrorist states, wont do anything against them developing weapons of mass destruction and could care less what the US concerns and opinions are.

Yeah, they didn't do anything about Israel building nukes either

But the opposite is quite true, The US has been on the short end of a lot of votes of something is 139-9 like the Palestinian vote. When we do it in the Security council, our veto lets us fly in the face of the vast majority of world opinion

Maybe we should ask ourselves if maybe they know something we don't get to hear in the US

Yeah, over the last 12 years the Palestinians have killed over 100 Israeli kids and Israel has killed over 1000 Palestinian kids (and they are the ones with Precision weapons) but there's only one terrorist state there right?

Peace

Karl
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
I don't really give f*#k about you, bro.

That sums it up.

What you lack in baseline intelligence, you more than redeem with your ability to emphasize it in your writing.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:01pm PT
The best way to support Israel is to support the Palestinian efforts to restore statehood to Palestine. That's also the best way to support our troops. Oh, and the Palestinians aren't a terrorist state any more than we were during the revolutionary war; they are responding to the main terrorism happening which is Israeli settlements carving up the last of the west bank.



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
So what? You expect them to do nothing while the Israelis steal the last of their land? How would you respond? You'd get weapons wherever you could find them.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:38pm PT
Go back a page and look at that map. It's the whole story.

We supply Israel with both weapons and the funds to make and buy additional weaponry. No one in the region can compete head to head any more than we could go head to head with the English in the revolutionary war.

When decade after decade we support Israel to the absolute exclusion of all others in the region, particularly the scattered palestinian diaspora, you'd have to be an idiot to think sooner or later there wouldn't be slap up the side of the head to get our attention. That was 9/11 and they used what weapons were at their disposal.

As far as IEDs go, we just invested a decade and 4-6 trillion dollars perfecting them and advancing asymmetric warfare to another level of sophistication compared to the Afghan war. We did that. We've done all of it and our one-sided support of Israel is why we have so many dead in other parts of the Mideast.

Either make Israel the 51st state or bring balance to the region by forcing Israel to make peace - either one will do. Failure to do one or the other will simply translate into more dead American troops in the Mideast.

One would think at some point you'd actually 'get it' - but apparently not...
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 1, 2012 - 04:06pm PT
Congratulations to Palestine for their new status with the UN.
The hardcore Zionist of Israel have never wanted peace with the indigenous peoples.
If they thought they could get away with it they would be brutal to the point of total genocide.
As it is they feign interest in the peace process while slowly strangling the life out of Palestine.
Death by slow starvation.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
I've said it before,the palestinian's worst enemy is their own leadership.
They're corrupt nihilists without a viable agenda. Look at the millions
Arafat squirreled away in Switzerland. You think the current bunch is
Any different?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 1, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
You think the current bunch is any different?

Yes, Hamas isn't going to take no for an answer and spend decades lining their pockets. They want a state of Palestine and aren't willing to watch the last of the West Bank taken from them or sit idly by while Gaza is for all intents and purposes a prison, and I don't blame them a bit for that.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 06:02pm PT
All that really comes across reading Rong's and Blue's posts is how confused and desperate they are

They just never seem to grasp anything even faintly resembling reality, instead they cling to wingnut propaganda and invented fantasies, because...well who knows why, hatred of Obama perhaps, along with arrested development of course, and the need for attention

But in a way they're good for the country, because the willfully ignorant are all the repubs have left to pander to, which hastens the repub party's demise, of course.

You people think you're so smart, so compassionate. And me and Ronnie are castigated as stupid ole' rednecks. That's fine. I accept and I know Ron does too.

What's weird is you people deny discussion and call us stupid, because we're too stupid. Who's the f*#king stupid one?

I'm trying to engage you in discussion, and you always walk~! Let's talk.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
Healy, how is picking a fight with a vastly superior enemy and
thereby getting mostly civilians killed doing any good?

How is continuing to call for the destruction of Israel at all constructive?

How is the continuance of this nihilistic approach going to get the
Palestinians out of the hell hole lives they lead?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 1, 2012 - 06:27pm PT
Ron: Like i said,, i do agree on the ill dealings of the past in regards to the ME, but NOTHING will change that now..

When it comes to the muslim brotherhood- obviously a radical islamist faction, should any sensible person be for the spread of that at THIS point?

The brotherhood was an entirely predictable response in a post-colonial Mideast dominated by dictators propped up by the West.

Ron: Personally I wanted a hands off approach to them all

Too late - the neocons already screwed that pooch.

Ron: Obama has even pre-budgeted for attacking Iran.

No, he hasn't. The military costs of the consequences of an Israeli strike on Iran will be put entirely on the national credit card just like the past three wars have been.

Ron: We've seen the results of diplomacy in dealing with the brotherhood quite clearly now.

No, we're only just now starting to do any diplomacy with the brotherhood proper since Morsi assumed the presidency. The brotherhood could do anything it wanted prior to that, but now it is heavily constrained simply by the act of stepping onto the world stage. Now they have to do more than run community centers, foster unrest, and spout rhetoric - now they have to deliver in the light of day and that's a much harder proposition. We'll see how it all pans out, but we're just now getting our first glimpses of what diplomacy with the brotherhood will be like.

Ron: My friend in Iran says the only hope they have is that the USA kills their regime. But he isnt holding his breath because he knows about the monies flowing between us and them.

There are no significant "monies [of any kind] flowing between us and them."

Ron: Arming anyone any futher over in the ME is folly at this point. We saw how this comes around to bite you in the arse with fast and furious. Why engage that on a GRAND scale is beyond me.

F&F was a Bush project and has little relationship to what's going on over in the Mideast at the moment. Once again, arms are going to flow to conflict zones and we are either engaged or irrelevant.

Ron: So you can THINK that Palestine trying to reclaim lands is a good idea, but you back those who seek to do you harm as well. And the UN has ALWAYS been more harm to us than good. All we do is give them muscle when it benefits the brotherhood. That ISNT helping.

Ron, Ron, Ron, man...you really need to ditch all the Birch bullshit and wake the f*#k up dude. The UN / male essense paranoia is absolutely cartoonish. And you seem utterly obsessed and captivated by one boogiemen after another to the point it's like waving a feathered catnip ball on a string in front of a cat. Cartels, Brotherhoods, and TERRORIST STATES - oh my!!! Unfortunately, the world just isn't as simple as that - wish it were - but it ain't. Everything is action and reaction and some of those actions happened years, decades or even centuries ago; we still have to deal with it and our actions always take place against a moving backdrop. We don't own the pace or tempo of the events and our attempts to interjection and control events almost always backfire.

Maybe consider easing up on the simplicity and take a more nuanced approach to all these evil entities. While the "axis of evil" was brilliant political theatre in pandering to an uneducated audience, it did nothing to help anyone understand very real events on the ground. Anytime the politically-inclined attempt to pin the 'evil' tag on someone you should be highly suspicious of their motivations and spend a bit of time trying to actually understand a little of the actual events and history of those peoples.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 1, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
Healy, how is picking a fight with a vastly superior enemy and
thereby getting mostly civilians killed doing any good?

It's actually a very effective strategy, particularly given they didn't pick the turf and have no other options. It keeps world attention on the conflict, makes Israel look like the abused child grown up to be an abuser itself, forces Gulf states to action, and generates global sympathies for the votes in the general assembly like we just witnessed.

How is continuing to call for the destruction of Israel at all constructive?

They're not going to give that up until Israel permanently halts settlements and exhibits a willingness to negotiate a two-state solution in earnest. Hamas is the bad cop to Fatah's good cop - and it's effective.

How is the continuance of this nihilistic approach going to get the
Palestinians out of the hell hole lives they lead?

It's not the Hamas or Fatah who have been fostering the continuance of a nihilistic approach; that would be Israel who in fact does not want peace or a Palestinian state. The past three decades of the "peace process" have been a sham from the Israeli side and just a way to buy time while fragmenting the West Bank with settlements.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 07:39pm PT
Gee, Healy, I guess then that the Israeli-Palestinian problem is the first
in the history of the world to be completely caused and resolveable only
by one side? AMAZING!
dirtbag

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
Is she your average Democrat?
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
China has launched its new line of aircraft carriers.

N Korea threatens to test fire long range missiles for icbms.

Iran threatens to get nuclear weapon capabilities

Iran also supplies Gaza with weaponry


Our #1 enemy was being hidden by Pakistan and they arrested the source of the info to find him- and now rots in a pakistani jail somewhere.

Israel continues to battle hamas who continues to battle Israel. Hamas right now is encouraging its followers to launch missiles.

Our Ambassador and three other Brave Americans were murdered in Behgnazi

Libya, Egypt , Yemen, Syria, Burma are all under violent actions now.

all FACTS no???



see ANY common denominators in all of that?


I will take a stab..

A pony would make them all a little bit happier?


Gee Ron.. you sound like you are trying to blame all of that on Obama. Are you?
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
Okay.. well.. what is?
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 08:10pm PT
The muslim brotherhood built an aircraft carrier in China?

And they helped North Korea develop ICBMs?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 08:13pm PT
John M, haven't you ever heard why camels are called the ships of the desert?
John M

climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 08:21pm PT
The pic of Jessica Alba? She is part of the Muslim Brotherhood?


Just messing with you Ron. I still don't know which post you are talking about, but it doesn't matter that much to me.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
SLO, Ca
Dec 1, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
She looks great to me. Just because she does a sit-up now and then doesn't mean she's anorexic.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 1, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
Well Karl do you support HAMAS or Israel? I havent heard of Israelis flying planes into buildings,, or wearing explosive undies, shoes or the like.

I support both in hoping they find peace and security and I support neither to the extent they use violence. My views and that of HealyJ are aligned. You should listen to him, he knows what he's talking about

And make no mistake, if it weren't for our support for Israel, 9-11 is unlikely to have happened. To book Israel has sent spies to the US (some in Jail now) and DID attack the US LIberty with plans, killing Americans in 1967. Google it.

And you know which country in the world would be most likely to assassinate a US president? I wouldn't be surprised at all if a US president took a sharply "we aren't going to give Israel Foreign aid anymore and stand up for the in the US, they'd be the ones to kill the president"

You're totally wrong equating the PLO and Hamas. Quite spewing about what you know nothing about, and also Hamas has NOTHING to do with Worldwide terrorism. They are locked in in their regional conflict...period.

It's very basic dude. There were about 14,000 Jews in the land of Israel just after the turn of the century (1900) now they have everything. How do you think they got it? If you were one of the dude that got squeezed off your land and your family killed, you'd be the most fearsome terrorist on the planet. I know you. Don't even deny it.

You complain about IEDs and such but it's really just about what they have to fight with. Israel has tanks and F16s. Take all that away and they'd be terrorist too, just like they actually were when they fought the British and were blowing up hotels and stuff


always step into the other guys shoes and ask "What would I do?"

Peace

Karl
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 11:48pm PT
Iran already attacked us.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/51400

We just ignore it.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 2, 2012 - 02:27am PT
Iran already attacked us.

Boo!!

You know Bluering, I though you were saying Al Queda was behind Beghazi and Iran is not an Al Queda place. Not Wahabbi there.

Plus, you know we're attacking them already right? Flying drones over their land, messing with their internet, and somebody is assassinating their scientists.

Not to mention we forced sanctions on them

And let's not forget it was only 1954 when our CIA helped overthrow their democratically elected president and put in a ruthless dictator, all because they wanted to control their own oil

Remember what Jesus said, Get the log out of your own eye before you complain about the twig in somebody else's. We're bringing this sh#t down on ourselves by being in everyone elses sh#t at huge expense to our both in money and consequences.

If other countries did 1/10th the things we routinely do to other countries, you'd be called to nuke them

And don't you think falsely invading one country, killing 100's of thousands and making Millions of refugees should disqualify us from doing that again? Sorta like why Germany abstained from recognizing Palestine even though they wanted to.

Peace

Karl
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 2, 2012 - 04:01am PT
PLO, aka Hamas

Ron, Hamas has never been a part of the PLO and its history includes longstanding conflict with Fatah (the largest and most influential group in the PLO.) This is hardly surprising as since the beginning, Hamas has been encouraged (and even funded in the early days) by Israel as a foil to the secular Fatah. Here's a pretty good rundown from the commies at the WSJ:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html

Late last year there was talk of Hamas joining the PLO. This made the Likudniks in Israel blow a gasket:

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=250605

If this happened they could no longer play the groups off against each other.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 2, 2012 - 05:29am PT
Gee, Healy, I guess then that the Israeli-Palestinian problem is the first in the history of the world to be completely caused and resolveable only by one side? AMAZING!

Do you see two sides when you look at that map? the Israeli right does not, and never has, intended to settle and the Hamas developed specifically in response to that reality. Had the Israelis had any remote interest in settling they could have entirely headed off Hamas' very existence decades ago. Hamas only exits as a due to Israeli intransigence.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 2, 2012 - 05:38am PT
Iran already attacked us.

Iran had no involvement in the attack - the attack was committed by Salafis which is a fundamentalist Sunni sect, not a Shiite one. In fact, the Salafi are actively countering Iranian-backed Shiite influence in North Africa.

Attacking Iran would be an ideological victory for hard-line Salafists / Wahhabis, tipping the regional balance-of-power in favor of the ultra-orthodox. This is not a minor consequence. Like it or not, Iran’s Twelver Shiite national ideology is somewhat of a counterbalance to the ultra-orthodox Salafists in the region.

And that's the whole problem with all the whole global 'Caliphate' / 'culture' hysteria - before either the shiites or sunnis posed a strategic threat in the region they'd have to survive a bitter and protracted regional sectarian war from which no one will emerge as the 'last man standing'. The entire concept is bankrupt nonsense, mostly pushed by one academic 'culture' warrior.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 2, 2012 - 06:22am PT
Ron: China has launched its new line of aircraft carriers.

Inconsequential as already explained - everyone wants toys they don't have, even if they don't know how to use them.

Ron: N Korea threatens to test fire long range missiles for icbms.

Pay closer attention. N Korea does things like this and restarting reactors whenever they're feeling neglected and been off the front page for too long due to other, more pressing, world events. They are more concerned with being forgotten than in becoming a threat. Also, it's more for China's benefit than ours, and besides, the Japanese run a couple of AEGIS boats and have it all covered with a couple of ours thrown in as backups. So my advice? Don't sweat the small stuff.

Ron: Iran threatens to get nuclear weapon capabilities

Gee, I dunno, the fact the Persians are a unique culture unto themselves in a region of cultures hostile to theirs couldn't possibly be driving any of their thinking...


Ron: Iran also supplies Gaza with weaponry

They supply weapons to anyone with cash - just like us, the russians, and the chinese though they are probably inclined to throw Hamas the occasional freebee just to be annoying (and to stay relevant).

Ron: Our #1 enemy was being hidden by Pakistan and they arrested the source of the info to find him - and now rots in a pakistani jail somewhere.

Yeah, well, pissing in the other guy's sandbox, even if only to drown a scorpion, never plays well with the locals. Sort of like when cartels piss in your sandbox.

Ron: Israel continues to battle hamas who continues to battle Israel. Hamas right now is encouraging its followers to launch missiles.

Can't blame'em - are you just not seeing the map we keep posting? Being Irish and all I'd probably be the guy lighting the fuses if it were happening to me and mine. How about you?

Ron: Our Ambassador and three other Brave Americans were murdered in Behgnazi

Yep, a CIA intel post got caught with their pants down which is doubly embarrassing because what happened to them is exactly what they were there to monitor for. Running intel ops in conflict zones is never without obvious risks - sh#t happens, a real bummer in this case as Stevens was about the best friend the Libyans had (not that you or any of the right really care about Stevens [a liberal] or the other guys - you've all made it abundantly and callously clear they're just election fodder an nothing more).

Ron: Libya, Egypt , Yemen, Syria, Burma are all under violent actions now.

Burma's unrelated, but which part of the forty times we've explained that this is W and the neocon's 'dominoes' legacy do you just not get? I mean, c'mon - really?


Ron: all FACTS no???

Dude, you desperately need to ease up on the chicken-little, boogeymen-and-the-UN-mating-under-my-bed thing. Hey, we f*#ked up as a nation under the neocons and now we have to buck up, suck it in, and deal - preferably without all the hand-wringing, violent shaking, gnashing of teeth, hysteria, and inconsolable wailing.


Man, I mean, just how do you manage to climb and lead with attitudes and outlooks like these?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 2, 2012 - 07:04am PT
Thanks for the Factual smack-down Joe.

Things change when you know what you're talking about Blue. There's all these right wing talk show hosts who don't really know squat out there talking smack but it's just smack

like the people who have read a book on climbing and look up at El Cap and say stupid things

Peace

Karl
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 2, 2012 - 10:33am PT
Well played Joe, well played!


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 2, 2012 - 11:45am PT
Gosh Ron

You've made your point! How are we going to protect all our Nice american lives when there's so many evil forces out there who might harm our CIA contractors or political staff? We never know when the dictator we've been supporting for years could be uncontrollably overthrown by democracy which we might not approve of or be able to prevent!

The only modest solution would be to Nuke all the other countries of the world so our innocent lives will be protected and the nuclear winter would also stop global warming.

It's just our wussy government would have the guts to protect us from the threat of all the evil out there by killing everybody else!

Love n Light

Karl

Edit- China underestimated! We're chumps for only spending as much as the rest of the world combined on Defense! Having enough nukes to obliterate china is clearly not enough! We need to borrow more money from them so we can have 20x their military!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 2, 2012 - 12:03pm PT
And all those NICE communistic types like Hitler and Hiro Hito

This combination of words alone is enough to have sentient beings ignore your posts forever.

Really Rong take a break. It's time to stop nursing on the teat of conservative am radio. Please go read a book for God's sake. I would suggest Pride and Prejudice but it is a big boy book and written by a Woman. Try Addicted to WAR by Joel Andreas instead. Even though it is meticulously sourced and credited It is presented in comic book form with lots of pictures so you should be comfortable.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 2, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
Wrong again Rong. Obama is the most supportive President the Palestinians have ever had to address. He is locked in an pre-existing Geo-Political tug of war. He can not endorse Hamas but he can support Palestine. Likewise he can not just cut Israel off from US tax payers billions. It will be a weaning.


Ron because you think it does not make it real. You are a victim Ron. A victim of an on-going propaganda campaign. When I think of Rong the phrase "Hook, Line and Sinker" comes immediately to mind.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 2, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
He could do nothing else. It didn't change a thing. Obama is still the most sympathetic President to Palestinians. And yet you would make it a case of total abandonment. Just as you would make his other statement a total endorsement of support to Isreal. It was NOT! You know NOTHING of the situation and should NOT wax idiotically about it.

Why on EARTh would anyone back any terrorist organizations is beyond me. And that is ALL that "palestine " is.
This proves my point quite succinctly.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 2, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
Ron, to put it politely, you have proven over and over again to be fact-challenged.

When asked to provide support for many of your claims, your sources are blogs, your buddies, or you provide no sources at all.

We're not even at the point of arguing about what we think should happen: we're arguing over basic facts. Others have suggested that you seek other sources and read a bit more.

Sorry, I sound like an as#@&%e for writing this, but it's true. That's why I don't bother engaging most of the time.

Still, I think you are a great guy. See-ya.


philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 2, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
Those ignorant of the past are doomed to repeat it.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 2, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
Gee, I dunno, the fact the Persians are a unique culture unto themselves in a region of cultures hostile to theirs couldn't possibly be driving any of their thinking...

Ain't so much the Persians themselves, it's the crazy f*#kers running the place who seem to be the only ones on Earth dead-set on deploying a nuke.

Everyone else keeps their rhetoric off the maps, and their actions back that up.

Iran can not be allowed to have a nuke.

EDIT:
Iran had no involvement in the attack - the attack was committed by Salafis which is a fundamentalist Sunni sect, not a Shiite one. In fact, the Salafi are actively countering Iranian-backed Shiite influence in North Africa.

Wrong! The Saudis are trying to drop Syria. Iran hates the Saudis.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 2, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
Healyje, the only thing I will concur with you is it's time to go Ron Paul.

Bring everybody home, flip everybody off for now, and come home. Rebuild our home.

I'm tired of all this Sunni/Shiite bullsh#t. Let them cut themselves to pieces. Israel can defend herself.

This also means we stop propping up Muslim Brotherhood and other tin-pot as#@&%es. F*#k everybody! Bring the boyz home.

Oh, it also means we start drilling for oil here and developing our own resources.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 2, 2012 - 07:38pm PT
Warbler, I'll always be a crazy conservative like Ron Paul. It's time to clean our own house. We are in bad shape. We need to re-group. Rebuild.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Dec 2, 2012 - 07:39pm PT


Bring everybody home, flip everybody off for now, and come home. Rebuild our home.

I'm tired of all this Sunni/Shiite bullsh#t. Let them cut themselves to pieces. Israel can defend herself.


Agreed. Amen. But don't we have to get off our oil addiction first?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 2, 2012 - 07:45pm PT
We have plenty of our own resources here at home, should we choose to extract them.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 2, 2012 - 07:46pm PT
Oh, it also means we start drilling for oil here and developing our own resources.

We've been doing that all along Ron. Thing is, it's a limited resource so once we run out, we'll be even more dependent so maybe drain theirs and then drill the parts of ours we're not wanted to now (cause it's in Yellowstone or the arctic) when the price is $200 a barrel

Peace

karl
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 2, 2012 - 07:49pm PT
Karl, we have over a hundred years of oil alone....

I'm Bluey, or Steve, too. Not Ron.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 2, 2012 - 08:07pm PT
Karl, we have over a hundred years of oil alone....

I dispute that. Prove it.

Plus, the tail end of oil is WAY more expensive than the first half. Heard of Peak Oil. We're there. Some folks say Fracking will save us but have you noticed gas is over $4?

US oil production peaked, as predicted in the 70s, and not because environmentalists put a stop to it

http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/30/less-than-50-years-of-oil-left-hsbc-warns/

Even 50 or 100 years isn't a long time when we have little that promises to replace oil as a transportation fuel. You'll get yours but better hope reincarnation isn't true

Peace

karl
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 2, 2012 - 08:44pm PT
I read a blog about another blog about another blog, the gist of it as follows:Mr. Putin was a KGB colonel when he witnessed the fall of the Soviet Union courtesy of foreign adventures (Afghanistan and unruly satellite republics) fighting the U.S. by proxy, foreign aid distributed liberally across the planet,a currency crisis and unofficial inflation, and last but not least one Mikhail Gorbachev who couldn't have done a better job of singlehandedly dismantling the union if he had been a CIA deep plant.
Now nearly a quarter century later Mr. Putin is laughing his ass off all the way to the bank as the U.S. suffers nearly the exact same set of maladies that brought down his former empire. Maybe Romney knew something and didn't misspeak when he answered a debate question about who, besides our own disfunctional government, is the U.S.'s most dangerous foe.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 2, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
I'm Bluey, or Steve, too. Not Ron.

Sorry, Bluey,

Must have been reading the text and not the sidebar

I know you're not Ron, not that there's anything wrong with that

Except of this thread of course, and that GOP Wrong thread ;-)

Peace

Karl
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 2, 2012 - 09:02pm PT
Ron, i can't attest to the accuracy of the info from the blog of a blog of a blog anymore than i can attest to the accuracy of the info these other posters use to bolster their "opinions" on. I am highly suspect of any information currently available on any medium, it all seems like propaganda whose purpose is to manipulate the masses and pit american against american.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 2, 2012 - 10:10pm PT
Ron, i can't attest to the accuracy of the info from the blog of a blog of a blog anymore than i can attest to the accuracy of the info these other posters use to bolster their "opinions" on. I am highly suspect of any information currently available on any medium, it all seems like propaganda whose purpose is to manipulate the masses and pit american against american.


I agree, but at some point you have to analyze available data and extrapolate what you can based on the data available. You have to use your own judgement based on what is presented.

You can't just say everything is BS. Gotta sift through the sh#t with a comb though!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 2, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
Karl, everyone knows we have AT LEAST a hundred years of oil (shale/oil/ etc..). Some say 200 years. Not to mention Canada (Keystone?) and Mexico. We should tell the f*#king Saudis to f*#k themselves and pound sand!

Let's do more business with our North American bros.

Rick is right too. The Russians are feisty little f*#kers. Let's not f*#k with them. Like Libya/Syria. We saw how that turned out.

We need to back off. Come home. Regroup. We are positioned nicely to do this. Let them eat themselves to pieces. We have a nice body of water insulating US from THEM.

F*#k them!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 2, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
As a Russian Studies major I can wholeheartedly aver that whoever
occupies the Kremlin for the foreseeable future will be unequivocally
opposed to anything the US is in favor of. Russians wrote the book
on xenophobia.

As concerns Egypt anybody who is surprised by Mursi's shenanigans
has no clue. There is no word in Arabic for 'democracy'. My wife's
family has 100 years of experience in Egypt and Africa and I have
benefited mightily from their collective wisdom. Regardless of who
occupies the White House you can rest assured that any response
to the Middle East or Africa will be amateurish at best. I have been
quite amazed at Obama's indifference to Africa.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 2, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
Sigh.

Bluering! Re your post:

Karl, everyone knows we have AT LEAST a hundred years of oil (shale/oil/ etc..). Some say 200 years. Not to mention Canada (Keystone?) and Mexico. We should tell the f*#king Saudis to f*#k themselves and pound sand!

Let's do more business with our North American bros.

Rick is right too. The Russians are feisty little f*#kers. Let's not f*#k with them. Like Libya/Syria. We saw how that turned out.

We need to back off. Come home. Regroup. We are positioned nicely to do this. Let them eat themselves to pieces. We have a nice body of water insulating US from THEM.

F*#k them!


If you don't look at our history: it seems so logical to just tell the rest of the world to "Fuk-off."

As a nation, we did that after World War One and ignored the rise of Hitler's Germany, until Franklin Roosevelt and a few of his “far-sighted” advisors forced us to start supporting England, and mobilizing for WWII.

Likewise George W. Bush tried to pull back from Clinton’s administration being “policeman to the world” and then received his and our punishment in Sept. 2011.

Sorry Dooede! We are not an isolated nation any longer.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 2, 2012 - 11:08pm PT
Barry thinks "the brotherhood" is cool. (or at least has stayed silent about them)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2241374/Muslim-Brotherhood-paying-gangs-rape-women-beat-men-protesting-Egypt-thousands-demonstrators-pour-streets.html

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 2, 2012 - 11:35pm PT
Well there is a promise you could not keep.

Try to remember you are impotent not omnipotent.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 2, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
If you don't look at our history: it seems so logical to just tell the rest of the world to "Fuk-off."

As a nation, we did that after World War One and ignored the rise of Hitler's Germany, until Franklin Roosevelt and a few of his “far-sighted” advisors forced us to start supporting England, and mobilizing for WWII.

Likewise George W. Bush tried to pull back from Clinton’s administration being “policeman to the world” and then received his and our punishment in Sept. 2011.

Sorry Dooede! We are not an isolated nation any longer.

Don't misunderstand me. We have capabilities to strike anyone, anywhere without using nukes. That is one tool in the toolbox. An effective one too.

Just because we come home doesn't mean we stop firing.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 2, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
Yeah Hedge but there are 4 brave Americans dead because Obama told the Muslim Brotherhood to attack. What are you gunna do about it? And then there is Burma, that Middle East Hot Spot.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 3, 2012 - 12:01am PT
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 3, 2012 - 12:14am PT
Bluering! Thanks for your kindly reply to my concerns about you wanting us to once-again become isolated from world events.

Don't misunderstand me. We have capabilities to strike anyone, anywhere without using nukes. That is one tool in the toolbox. An effective one too.

Just because we come home doesn't mean we stop firing.


**Wow!
That's Awesome!
So we and God both are going to punish those sinners for fuking with the USA?**
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 3, 2012 - 12:27am PT
Oh Yeah Hedge, well...but, but... Fast and Furious and brave Americans So There.
And don't forget those commies like Hitler, Hirihito and Obumble.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2012 - 10:30am PT
Ralph Nader lays it out, he doesn't think Obama is his savior like these guys on Supertopo:

In an interview with POLITICO's Patrick Gavin, Ralph Nader makes a clear statement about the current president's record on foreign policy, saying that Obama is worse than George W. Bush”

“He’s gone beyond George W. Bush in drones, for example. He thinks the world is his plate, that national sovereignties mean nothing, drones can go anywhere. They can kill anybody that he suspects and every Tuesday he makes the call on who lives and who dies, supposed suspects in places like Yemen and Pakistan and Afghanistan, and that is a war crime and he ought to be held to account.”


http://www.politico.com/multimedia/video/2012/09/nader-obama-worse-than-bush.html
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 3, 2012 - 11:11am PT
Come on Couch get over it. I can't think of any one other than you rightwingnutz that refers to President Obama as a or the "Savior". You are deluded to think so. BHO is not perfect. No President could be. We live in a world of compromise and agreement. But to insinuate that he is some how "WORSE THAN BUSH" is utter non-sense. Drone strikes may be offensive but would you prefer Bush style full on invasions? Do you sincerely think that 200,000+ civilian dead and an utterly devastated infrastructure is preferable to a blown up building and 23 dead? Or is it that you prefer that we squander a few trillion dollars on illegal imperialistic wars rather than a few hundred millionon un-manned drones? aren't you of the mindset that we have to go get the bad guys?
From a cost/benefit analysis Obama has (in 3+ years) gotten far more done with less cost than that dumb ass puppet Spurious George did in 8 years of disastrous foriegn policy.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 3, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
This is DrF's post on the Repug Wrong thread.
I copied and pasted it because it is applicable and pertinent.


Truth once again proves Republicans Wrong about Everything,
This is for JE
Wall Street Journal


Obama spending binge never happened: Government outlays rising at slowest pace since 1950s

May 22, 2012|Rex Nutting, MarketWatch

http://articles.marketwatch.com/2012-05-22/commentary/31802270_1_spending-federal-budget-drunken-sailor/2

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — Of all the falsehoods told about President Barack Obama, the biggest whopper is the one about his reckless spending spree.

As would-be president Mitt Romney tells it: “I will lead us out of this debt and spending inferno.”

Almost everyone believes that Obama has presided over a massive increase in federal spending, an “inferno” of spending that threatens our jobs, our businesses and our children’s future. Even Democrats seem to think it’s true.

But it didn’t happen. Although there was a big stimulus bill under Obama, federal spending is rising at the slowest pace since Dwight Eisenhower brought the Korean War to an end in the 1950s.

Even hapless Herbert Hoover managed to increase spending more than Obama has.

Here are the facts, according to the official government statistics:

• In the 2009 fiscal year — the last of George W. Bush’s presidency — federal spending rose by 17.9% from $2.98 trillion to $3.52 trillion. Check the official numbers at the Office of Management and Budget.

• In fiscal 2010 — the first budget under Obama — spending fell 1.8% to $3.46 trillion.

• In fiscal 2011, spending rose 4.3% to $3.60 trillion.

• In fiscal 2012, spending is set to rise 0.7% to $3.63 trillion, according to the Congressional Budget Office’s estimate of the budget that was agreed to last August.

• Finally in fiscal 2013 — the final budget of Obama’s term — spending is scheduled to fall 1.3% to $3.58 trillion. Read the CBO’s latest budget outlook.

Over Obama’s four budget years, federal spending is on track to rise from $3.52 trillion to $3.58 trillion, an annualized increase of just 0.4%.

There has been no huge increase in spending under the current president, despite what you hear.

Why do people think Obama has spent like a drunken sailor? It’s in part because of a fundamental misunderstanding of the federal budget.

What people forget (or never knew) is that the first year of every presidential term starts with a budget approved by the previous administration and Congress. The president only begins to shape the budget in his second year. It takes time to develop a budget and steer it through Congress — especially in these days of congressional gridlock.

The 2009 fiscal year, which Republicans count as part of Obama’s legacy, began four months before Obama moved into the White House. The major spending decisions in the 2009 fiscal year were made by George W. Bush and the previous Congress.

Like a relief pitcher who comes into the game with the bases loaded, Obama came in with a budget in place that called for spending to increase by hundreds of billions of dollars in response to the worst economic and financial calamity in generations.

By no means did Obama try to reverse that spending. Indeed, his budget proposals called for even more spending in subsequent years. But the Congress (mostly Republicans but many Democrats, too) stopped him. If Obama had been a king who could impose his will, perhaps what the Republicans are saying about an Obama spending binge would be accurate.

Yet the actual record doesn’t show a reckless increase in spending. Far from it.

Before Obama had even lifted a finger, the CBO was already projecting that the federal deficit would rise to $1.2 trillion in fiscal 2009. The government actually spent less money in 2009 than it was projected to, but the deficit expanded to $1.4 trillion because revenue from taxes fell much further than expected, due to the weak economy and the emergency tax cuts that were part of the stimulus bill.

The projected deficit for the 2010-13 period has grown from an expected $1.7 trillion in January 2009 to $4.4 trillion today. Lower-than-forecast revenue accounts for 73% of the $2.7 trillion increase in the expected deficit. That’s assuming that the Bush and Obama tax cuts are repealed completely.

When Obama took the oath of office, the $789 billion bank bailout had already been approved. Federal spending on unemployment benefits, food stamps and Medicare was already surging to meet the dire unemployment crisis that was well underway. See the CBO’s January 2009 budget outlook.

Obama is not responsible for that increase, though he is responsible (along with the Congress) for about $140 billion in extra spending in the 2009 fiscal year from the stimulus bill, from the expansion of the children’s health-care program and from other appropriations bills passed in the spring of 2009.

If we attribute that $140 billion in stimulus to Obama and not to Bush, we find that spending under Obama grew by about $200 billion over four years, amounting to a 1.4% annualized increase.

After adjusting for inflation, spending under Obama is falling at a 1.4% annual pace — the first decline in real spending since the early 1970s, when Richard Nixon was retreating from the quagmire in Vietnam.

In per capita terms, real spending will drop by nearly 5% from $11,450 per person in 2009 to $10,900 in 2013 (measured in 2009 dollars).

By the way, real government spending rose 12.3% a year in Hoover’s four years. Now there was a guy who knew how to attack a depression by spending government money!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 3, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
Just popping in to note that, in response to the non-violent Palestinian move to get observer status in the United Nations, Israel has announced it is withholding 200 million dollars in Palestinian money due to them and is going forward with 3000 new illegal settler homes on Palestinian lands, including some that are in a critical area that could derail any chance of a two state solution. France and England called their Israeli envoys to complain about it and the head of the UN condemned it. Even the US called it a bad move

Hardly anything about on CNN though. This sort of thing happens and then if the Palestinians push back it's front page news

Peace

Karl
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Dec 3, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
I'm may not be as informed as Ron....But I don't think there's such a thing as "Pre-budgeting."
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2012 - 04:22pm PT
Phil said:
." We live in a world of compromise and agreement. But to insinuate that he is some how "WORSE THAN BUSH" is utter non-sense. Drone strikes may be offensive but would you prefer Bush style full on invasions? Do you sincerely think that 200,000+ civilian dead and an utterly devastated infrastructure is preferable to a blown up building and 23 dead? Or is it that you prefer that we squander a few trillion dollars on illegal imperialistic wars rather than a few hundred millionon un-manned drones? aren't you of the mindset that we have to go get the bad guys?"

I happen to agree with you that the numbers are radically different. Yet, the Iraq vote was nearly unanimously approved by the Congress, and although I disagreed with our entry into that war: it was legal. The world would have been better off had Kerry, whom I voted for, been elected. But it didn't happen. That was then and this is now.

This President has stepped over a line that violates the constitution and our laws by taking unarmed American citizens lives (which is called murder) with no due process or judicial review and oversight - pretty much because of thought crimes. He believes its the right thing to do and thinks he can continue to murder citizens when he feels like it. I disagree.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
...another insider scoop on what the President thinks, feels and believes. Thanks for the psychic reading CM.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 3, 2012 - 06:21pm PT
^^^ Your average Democrat ^^^







^^^ ???? ^^^


TFPU

Sport climber
Idaho
Dec 3, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
So that's what bluering woud look like with a hair cut^^^^^^^
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 3, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
So Couchmaster, I have to ask you why you don't admonish Rong for such denigration of Hillary Clinton. Once I made the comment that Barbara Bush was no Looker and I called her the First GrandMa. And if memory serves you came fairly unglued on me. I appreciated your concerns, apologized and did not repeat it. But Rong here has posted this pertinacious slam repeatedly and not a peep out of you. I remember some pictures posted of my friend Jona that had her getting slammed in a very ugly manner. Not a peep of admonishment out of you.
And Hawkeye you and a few others were pretty hot to condemn me for posting up my brother's own vile words and his picture. You wanted to strengthen your attack on me by saying it was unfair of me as my bother didn't post here and thus wasn't fair game. Well here is your chance to step up to the same plate you expected me to. To the best of my knowledge Hillary Clinton does not post here. Tell Rong he is Wrong for such demeaning ugliness. Come on boi you can do it.

Can you say double standard?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 3, 2012 - 07:13pm PT
YEAH I JUST TOOK IT UP THE BUM DRY FROM MAH BOSS>>>>

Yeah no Slam there. Ronghazigate
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 3, 2012 - 07:51pm PT
No one, including you, has the slightest idea what you're talking about
Worth repeating since I don't have any context to put with this statement. Clear as fog.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 3, 2012 - 07:52pm PT
And Hawkeye you and a few others were pretty hot to condemn me for posting up my brother's own vile words and his picture. You wanted to strengthen your attack on me by saying it was unfair of me as my bother didn't post here and thus wasn't fair game.

dood,

if you want to denigrate your own blood brother on a website that he doesnt visit, then by all means go for it. just dont blame me for not seeing that as a positive tell tell of an "average democrat". i see nothing redeeming about that at all.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 3, 2012 - 07:55pm PT
Missed the point again.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 3, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
"And Hawkeye you and a few others were pretty hot to condemn me for posting up my brother's own vile words and his picture."

You're slandering your own family on SuperTopo? Really?

That's one for the record books

What a sick, pathetic, infantile piece of sh#t you are.

i agree with you but i was not going to be so blunt....philo did that to his own bro....and he still missess the point.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 3, 2012 - 08:00pm PT
yup Ron,

obama threw Hil under the bus right before the erection. and it is still being covered up. god forbid an average democrat calls their own party on politics....and before they call me a republican, i am neither red or blue...
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 3, 2012 - 08:01pm PT
yes Dr. F, Ron did say something to that effect. you guys have been so busy bitching about republicans that you can't seem to figure out what your won party is doing...dont lose sight that they are all politicians and have lots in common with each other.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 3, 2012 - 08:04pm PT
I simply exposed the ODS disease that has infected my brother and so many others. That was courageous. Once not long ago family members suffering from tuberculosis were hidden away for the shame felt. That was cowardly. Hiding the ugly truth is pathetic.
I present a true case of double standards and they double down on dumbing down.
Thanks Hedge.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 3, 2012 - 08:09pm PT
Hawkeye:

"are you seeing how politics RUNS the white house under obama. there are no principles but votes and popularity. and then follow the timeline some more. BO gets his ass handed to him by MR in the debate. further incriminating info comes out on libya. and just yesterday they throw hilary under the bus. that should have happened on 9/12/12 or at least that week."



I was talking about billary and their attempting to blame her a couple of weeks back LMAO!

this was Ron's post back on about Oct 16th in Dr. F's thread....

he has been calling it.


"I too thought it to be about the slimiest thing ive seen when philo started slamming his brother on here."

Oh I thought it was Rong talking sh#t about his brother, not Philo

Since Rong and Hawkeye are making the claim about Philo, it obviously must not be true, just more lies

They've cried wolf enough times where nothing they say can be trusted

hell, i have not been on these threads for a while. philo is the one admitting to throwing his bro under the bus. he and his family needs counseling, but philo chooses to rant on supertopo....its alright, there are medications and other psycho treatments for his issues.....but first he has to admit there is a problem.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 3, 2012 - 08:10pm PT
Trad climber

Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal

lol, have you applied for that obama phone yet ron?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 3, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
I did admit there was a problem. My brother wanted me dead simply because I supported Obama.
You don't see that as a problem do you? Nor do you see it as a specific symptom of a larger disease do you? No you only see what you think is my betrayal. So if you had a family member threatening harm to others and wishing death to you would you hide it away? If you had a family member that was a belligerent and violent racist you would just keep quite?

You make it clear there is no cure for republican double standards.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 3, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
i am a proud independant....who does not throw my family under the bus on a web site they dont visit.

thats alright philo, obamacare should have a script for you in the near future.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 3, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
lol ^^^ good one Ron.

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 3, 2012 - 08:18pm PT
So if you loyal family folk had a relative who threatened the President would you sit back and say nothing? Or only if the President wasn't white?

Aren't you glad Ted Kazsinskis brother turned him in. Or was that a cowardly betrayel of family loyalty. Would it not have been preferable if Timothy McVieghs family had outed him?

You reek of double speak and double standards.
How soon before you guys clean up the koch sauce and santorum from your circle jerk?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 3, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
No dumb ass that is what you are extrapolating.
Simply asking what YOU would do in a circumstance like that.

Here is another hypothetical situation.
If YOU had a family member with a known child sexual molestation issue would your vow to never throw your blood under the bus have you say nothing if they started to date someone with young children?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 3, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
Rong you and the cabal of fools are incapable of answering questions or confronting your error when proven wrong. You attack me and dismiss the message.

I will state for the record that if any member of my family or sphere of friends and acquaintances were to make a credible threat to an publicly elected official I would turn them in without regret or hesitation. Just so you know I would have done so for a threat against George Bush even though I personally loathed the boi.


My take on the few of you wanting to slam me on this issue is two fold.
1; You already despise me for relentlessly pursuing you on your BS. So blindly attacking me with specious arguments here is easier than confronting the truth.
2; Having read his absurd and indefensible diatribe you find yourselves in political agreement with him. You can't accept the fact that this puts you on the same bat sh#t crazy bus so you attack me for a lack of family loyalty. But judging from the truth about Republican "Family Values" that doesn't surprise me in the least.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 3, 2012 - 08:50pm PT
^^^ Dumb ass ^^^


You Guyz got nothing but a firm stance on the wrong side of history.
Just like those troglodytes that opposed the 13th amendment.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 3, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
^^^ Par for the Rong course Hedge
Remember that Rong said Hitler and Hirihito were Communists and Burma was in the Middle East.


ron's despicable anti-American diatribe against Hillary, Obama and the Dems has done nothing good for anyone, no done nothing, donein no thing, nothing was no doning
But it hasn't been admonished by the right wingers.
But OMG don't even think of saying Barbara Bush looked like the First Grandma. Particularly when what you really want to say is that Babs was the butt ugly bitch that birthed the worst President in US history. I hope she posts here.

So Hawkeye do you masturbate to a picture of Grover Norquist or Rush Limbaugh?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 3, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
No dumb ass that is what you are extrapolating.
Simply asking what YOU would do in a circumstance like that.

Here is another hypothetical situation.
If YOU had a family member with a known child sexual molestation issue would your vow to never throw your blood under the bus have you say nothing if they started to date someone with young children?

lmao!

of course i would report them on the political threads of supertopo!

you f*#kin moron
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 3, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
grover norquist should be hung...better yet, hang those policians who worry about him.....have you stopped to think who yanks the dems around?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 3, 2012 - 11:11pm PT

ron's despicable anti-American diatribe against Hillary

Dr. F,

i know i am making a mistake here in assuming that you CARE about accuracy. go read what ron said....he said obama threw hilary under the bus. anti-american? WTF? been visiting WA or CO for some smoke or is it your peyote again? hopefully its all covered under obamacare for you....
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 3, 2012 - 11:40pm PT
Schist!

This is getting a little crazy tonight!

Please!

Take a deep-breath, relax, and
--






take a Geometry Test!


To see if you qualify to post!
















dirtbag

climber
Dec 3, 2012 - 11:47pm PT
Suck it righties. Suck it hard, suck it deep, then swallow. You lost.

Ass handed to you.

Four more years, MoFos, four more years.






philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 3, 2012 - 11:47pm PT
Hey Hawkeye you ignorant slut, Rong repeatedly infers Hillary was raped in the ass by Obama.
Stupid, wrong and ugly. Probably why you two bond.

Aren't you just a little miffed that he so vilely attacks someone who does not post here? Or just more hypocritical double speak?
dirtbag

climber
Dec 3, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
More bad news, righties, there are not enough people like this anymore to elect your guys.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 4, 2012 - 11:14am PT
Hey Hawkeye you ignorant slut, Rong repeatedly infers Hillary was raped in the ass by Obama.
Stupid, wrong and ugly. Probably why you two bond.

Aren't you just a little miffed that he so vilely attacks someone who does not post here? Or just more hypocritical double speak?

philo,

relax, sudden movements will reinjure your neck....

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Dec 4, 2012 - 11:25am PT
Hawk...should move this to self portrait thread...
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Dec 4, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
that's because there is no recent news from Benghazi
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
Well then clearly it is a cover up of the most egregious act ever perpetrated against America.
Pearl harbor pales to insignificance compared to Ronghazigate.




healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 4, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
The exact reason im an independent.

Unfortunately, you are so far from an independent thinker as to make your use of the term an oxymoron. You've demonstrated a near total inability to distinguish fact from fiction, swill down Birch and other wingnut fantasy like breast milk, and display a childlike need for a black and white world view which lacks any sign of context, nuance, and understanding of how the real world works. It's like the political equivalent of a middle school dropout.

All in all it seems like a damaged response of some sort given you seem otherwise capable.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 4, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
Dude, where's your outrage over all the dead Americans in Iraq?

Let's just say they outnumber the ones in Libya by, ummmm, how should I put this.....THOUSANDS!!

Benghazi the Dead Horse, by Ron.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 4, 2012 - 12:36pm PT
uhh Survival,, Iraq is history- talk about beating a dead horse!


So your saying because Bush had Iraq its okeedokee for Obama to have the ones he wants then?


In case you haven't noticed, Benghazi is also becoming...history.
And no it's not ok for Obama to have whatever little international incidents he wants. But you have a profound lack of perspective man.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
Quite the opposite Rongo. The RighhtWingNutz are ever trying to dilute the horrendous incompetence of the Bush administration regarding 911 (before, during and after) by feigning outrage through false equivalency over Ronghazigate. And you with your yesterday is over mind set buy into it lock stock and barrel. You bought the gun. Problem is you got no bullets, no ammo. You have willingly ignored all the dead (as you harp on) "Brave Americans" killed in Embassy attacks under Spurious George. That fact alone makes your argument specious and unsustainable. But you conveniently attempt to cover your flaccid ass by proclaiming that everything past is over and insignificant. When in reality the only thing over and insignificant is you and your argument.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 12:58pm PT
BUSH was FOUR YEARS AGO.

And we are still paying the price for his disastrous Presidency.
In Fact we are still paying the price for Reagan's disastrous Presidency.
One set up the other. But since history has no relevance in RongLand I don't expect you to Groc the truth.

You know we, the sentient, did regularly proclaim our outrage at Bush's Blunders. Did you forget how your side treated US simply because it is in the past?

Yeah and Abe Lincoln was responsible for many a death too!!!!!!!!!
And the ramifications of Lincoln's presidency still reverberate through our UNITED States.

But as it was in the past it must have never happened in RongLand.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
and the repub party will be exterminated.

They will scurry and scatter in the light of truth and get squashed by the weight of facts like the KochRoaches they are.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
The most recent news on Benghazi doing a google search is from Nov 5th....

WHA???
Rong, don't you mean Waaaaaaaaaa!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
They will scurry and scatter in the light of truth and get squashed by the weight of facts like the KochRoaches they are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_H._Koch

Philanthropy

Since 2000, David H. Koch Charitable Foundation have pledged or contributed more than $750 million to further cancer research, enhance medical centers, support educational institutions, sustain arts and cultural institutions, and conduct public policy studies.[20][4] Since 2006, the Chronicle of Philanthropy has listed Koch as one of the world's top 50 philanthropists.[21]

Medical research

In 1992, Koch was diagnosed with prostate cancer. He underwent radiation, surgery, and hormone therapy, but the cancer returned every time. Koch believes his experience with cancer has encouraged him to fund medical research. He says, "once you get that disease and I've had it for 20 years almost, you become a crusader to try to cure the disease not only for yourself but for other people."[15] Koch says that his biggest contributions go toward a "moon shot" campaign to finding the cure for cancer, according to his profile on Forbes.[4] Between 1998 and 2012, Koch contributed at least $395 million to medical research causes and institutions.[22]

Koch sits on the Board of Directors of the Prostate Cancer Foundation and has contributed $41 million to the Foundation, including $5 million to a collaborative project in the field of nanotechnology.[23] Koch is the eponym of the David H. Koch Chair of the Prostate Cancer Foundation, a position currently held by Dr. Jonathan Simons.

In 2007, he contributed $100 million to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology to help fund the construction of a new 350,000-square-foot (33,000 m2) research and technology facility to serve as the home of the David H. Koch Institute for Integrative Cancer Research.[24] He has given a total of $185 million to MIT since joining the MIT Corporation in 1988.[22]
$20 million to Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine in Baltimore. The building he financed was named the David H. Koch Cancer Research Building.[25]
$30 million to the Memorial Sloan–Kettering Cancer Center in New York[26]
$25 million to the University of Texas M. D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston to establish the David Koch Center for Applied Research in Genitourinary Cancers[27]
$15 million to New York-Presbyterian Hospital Weill Cornell Medical Center[28]
$5 million to the House Ear Institute, in Los Angeles, to create a center for hearing restoration[21]
$25 million to the Hospital for Special Surgery in New York City[29]

Arts

In July 2008, Koch pledged $100 million over 10 years to renovate the New York State Theater in the Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts (now called the David H. Koch Theater),[30] and has pledged $10 million to renovate the outdoor fountains at the Metropolitan Museum of Art.[31]

Koch has been a trustee of the American Ballet Theater for 25 years[32] and has contributed more than $6 million to the theater.[33]

Education

Koch contributed $7 million to the Public Broadcasting Service (PBS) show Nova,[34] and is a contributor to the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, D.C., including a $20 million gift to the American Museum of Natural History, creating the David H. Koch Dinosaur Wing and a contribution of $15 million to the National Museum of Natural History to create the new David H. Koch Hall of Human Origins, which opened on the museum's 100th anniversary of its location on the National Mall on March 17, 2010.[35] In 2012, Koch contributed US $35 million to the Smithsonian to build a new dinosaur exhibition hall at the National Museum of Natural History. [36]

Koch also financed the construction of Deerfield Academy's $68 million Koch Center for mathematics, science and technology,[37] and was named the first and only Lifetime Trustee.[37]

Koch gave $10 million to the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory[38] where he was honored with the Double Helix Medal for Corporate Leadership for supporting research that, "improves the health of people everywhere".[39]

i disagree with the man's politics. i disagree with the way he runs his chemical business as i am familiar with that as well....but even if he gave 1/1,000 of what he has, its a million times more than what you have given to society.

edit:

i will give you this philo, you probably are intimately familiar with cockroaches...
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
Pablo Escobar did more through charity for his people and the community he occupied than the local citizens as well.
What's your point? That giving millions to good causes absolves you of crimes?

i will give you this philo, you probably are intimately familiar with cockroaches...
I wouldn't call it intimate but I do deal with you and Rong here on StupidTorpor.


try some content libs...
Hmmm what about the 3000 new homes to be built on Occupied Palestinian Land?
Try some context squat thrust.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
And what would Ron do if he lived under Occupation?
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
... as the main “resistance” (code word for terrorism)...

Were the French in WWII considered terrorists because they had a "resistance"?

Just wondering where these strange language and position statements come from. They may be terrorists but it is not because they are trying to removing an occupying army.

Dave
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
What's your point? That giving millions to good causes absolves you of crimes?

crimes? what crimes? having a different opinion than you and haviong millions of dollars to fund what he wants?

welcome to america bonehead. you are better conversing with your cockroaches, keeps the playing field level for you.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:40pm PT
And Warren still thinks he should pay more in Taxes.
While the Kochs would rather spend a billion dollars corrupting politics so they don't have to pay taxes.

Here is a prime example.

Did Adelson spend nine figures on the election?
By Daniel Treiman · December 4, 2012
The Huffington Post reports:

Casino magnate Sheldon Adelson vowed to spend as much as $100 million to defeat President Barack Obama and help the GOP take control of Congress. According to two GOP fundraisers with close ties to the Las Vegas billionaire, he made good on that promise -- and then some. Adelson ultimately upped the ante, spending closer to a previously unreported $150 million, the fundraisers said.

Here are the details:

The two GOP fundraisers, both with strong ties to Adelson, said that the casino mogul dished out close to $150 million, including between $30 million and $40 million to the Karl Rove-founded Crossroads GPS and at least $15 million to grassroots efforts with financial links to Charles and David Koch. Among other major beneficiaries of Adelson’s largess were the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, which received almost $5 million from Adelson, and the Republican Jewish Coalition, which got the bulk of its $6.5 million budget from him, the fundraisers said.

All of these are non-profit groups, which -- unlike the super PACs that raked in $54 million in funds from Adelson and his wife -- are not currently required to disclose their donors. Adelson’s public spending spree, larger than any other donor's in the last election, was made possible by two high court rulings in early 2010 that allowed corporations, unions and individuals to write unlimited checks to outside groups for political ads and other activities backing candidates.

Adelson’s spending may not have yielded many victories, but the casino tycoon still has the ears of Republicans.

Sources tell The Huffington Post that he’s heading to Washington, where will have meetings on Capitol Hill, including with at least one House Republican leader. The Huffington Post reports that “he is expected to discuss key issues, including possible changes to the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, the anti-bribery law that undergirds one federal probe into his casino network, according to a Republican attorney with knowledge of his plans.”

Meanwhile, Politico reported that some big-name Republicans who are considered presidential possibilities recently met with Adelson. Govs. Bobby Jindal, John Kasich and Bob McDonnell each visited Adelson’s Las Vegas gambling palace, The Venetian.

I am sure his desperateness to un-seat Obama had nothing to do with the fact that he is under Federal Indictment for fraud. Just a well meaning Billionaire expressing his right to flood the airwaves with fear, hate and lies. Your kind of Cockroach HackEye.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
philo, you are a real benefit to society.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
Its OBVIOUS that gaza is merely a terrorist stronghold being manipulated by the likes of the muslim brotherhood and Iran.

It is OBVIOUS that you are a racist dumb ass with out a clue.
How many family members do you have in Gaza?
How many of your family members were forced to flee their homes and homeland in 1948 under threat of annihilation by Jewish terrorist gangs.
How many of your family were killed by wanton and reckless Israeli aggression?
How many children have you seen killed?


You should not speak of what you do not comprehend.


philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
Not to mention that hot bed of middle east unrest - Burma.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 4, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
You should not speak of what you do not comprehend

wish you would follow your own advice....we may think that you were deaf and dumb....might have to prompt you for your name every once in a while just to ensure you were still alive if you followed your own advice.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 02:07pm PT
Hawkeye you have no content. So rather than address issues like an adult you sling your monkey poo. You think your sh#t don't stink but the majority of ST posters can't stand the smell of you.


My knowledge of the real plight of the Palestinians vastly surpasses that of such staggering intellects such as you and Ron. But don't address that just keep slinging.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
Sincere questions for you Ron.
Of all the hell fire and damage caused by the year long rain of terror out of Gaza what was the total toll on Israel?
How many wounded? How many dead? How many millions of dollars of destruction to homes and infrastructure?

Ron when you state you want the US out of the ME completely what do you mean?
Do you also include our financial support of Israel? Do you know how much in US tax dollars we give them annually? Do you know their cut is the first item payed every fiscal year? Even before we pay for essential services and even before we pay the interest on our debt.
Did you know that American financial support of Israel amounts to over $10,000.00 per Israeli citizen? Do you know what the equivalent per person expenditure of US tax dollars is on the Palestinians? Do you even remotely know what life is like in the Illegally Occupied Palestinian Territories? Does it not matter to you because you believe all Palestinians are inherently terrorists?
And as such you feel that the only good Palestinian is a dead a Palestinian?
Oh and one last question for you. Do you know who first used car bombs in Palestine?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 4, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
Warren Buffet has donated $37 billion to charity.

Why are liberal businessmen so much more generous than the conservative ones?

Facts to back up that premise, Dave? Does someone with more money giving more money make him or her more generous?

I know cabbies and wait persons in the cities hosting the political conventions claim that Republicans are much more generous tippers than Democrats, and tax returns disclosed by candidates for public office almost uniformly show the Republicans pay a higher percentage of their incomes to charities than do Democrats.

In truth, I admire Buffet because he gets a big part of the picture -- those to whom much has been given owe much back. I'm not so sanguine on his right to tell people who make or own less than 1% (or, in the case of the proposed $250,000 cutoff for "the rich." less than 0.1%) of what he does what they should do with their money, particularly given his seeming intention to pay only what he thinks he owes in taxes, and not more.

John
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
How clever of you to not answer my questions. But where in all that was mention of your dreaded Muslim Brotherhood?

OK here is another. What means would you allow the Palestinians to use to resist the Illegal Occupation?

Simple question Ron. It is just your opinion I am asking for. And we all know you are nothing if not opinionated.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 4, 2012 - 03:01pm PT
everyone should be allowed to have opinions....but when philo expresses his as facts, and turns fiction to facts and outright lies,, well, it just illustrates the mental disparity there is among him and his fellow cockroaches...

Do you also include our financial support of Israel? Do you know how much in US tax dollars we give them annually? Do you know their cut is the first item payed every fiscal year? Even before we pay for essential services and even before we pay the interest on our debt.
Did you know that American financial support of Israel amounts to over $10,000.00 per Israeli citizen?

financial supprt to Israel = $3.075B for Defense, $20M to help immigrants.

http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=1000623507&fid=1725

by the way, your buddy Obama raised the dollars to Israel, how does that make you feel philo?

Israels population? 7,765,700.

do the math philo, i know there are at least 7 figures to many for you....thats $396 per person.

and you dont have a clue as to who gets their money first. you are a clueless moron. go back talking to your cockroaches where you can garner the respect you deserve.

edit:

by the way - we should be VERY stingy for any money that is not used for humanitarian purposes....we know damn well that ny money spent in the ME will be used for death and destruction.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 4, 2012 - 03:01pm PT
Philo..... if the Pals wanted to live in pease all thay need to do is stop shooting rockets..... easy thing to do.

Everything else will fall into place.

The poor folks who live in Gaza are nothing but pawns... to evel muslems Fs
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 4, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
here philo,

assuming that you can read, this site has all teh math done for you.

http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=1000623507&fid=1725



philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 03:18pm PT
And you still don't address the questions directly.


I want us to be the ONE country the world doesnt F8ck with. Like we were on 12-7-1941.
. Yeah! No body f*#ked with our bad asses on 12/7/1941
You are right Rong since it was in the Past Pearl Harbor never happened

FYI Hackfly I have a lot of family in the Middle East and my own children are of Palestinian and Polish descent I guess in your mind that makes them Stupid Terrorists.

Sorry HackFly I should have said HAS amounted to. I never claimed the 10K was an annual amount. Now do you think we still need to give them billions every year?

Oh and what is TEH math? You are so literate I am sure you can explain.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 4, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
philo,

are you ever going to address your lack of understanding on the middle east and your total inability to deal with the facts?

or are you going to go back to your liberal communications manual and see what they say when you are caught lieing?

that section says to blame bush.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
One of the most prophetic things ever said by a Japanese officer.

After the attack dude he said it after the attack. The fear of a Sleeping Giant didn't stop them did it.
You are the one who said
I want us to be the ONE country the world doesnt F8ck with. Like we were on 12-7-1941.




Enlighten US oh wise and all seeing wingnut.
that section says to blame bush.
^^ partisan hypocrite ^^
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
Ron as tough as we were they did attack US and the outcome was not assured in fact we suffered huge losses for quite awhile.

Ron I can see that you don't think your blind hatred of the Palestinians is Racism so I ask you why are you so Anti-Semitic?

And HackBoi the only thing lamer and less significant than your drivel here is your contributions to climbing.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 4, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
And HackBoi the only thing lamer and less significant than your drivel here is your contributions to climbing.

philo,

next thing you will insult is my heritage...thats fine if it makes you feel like a man philo. i know its difficult for guys like you who were born with the brain of a cockroach.

go read up on that liberal communications manual, i think you are missing some parts that ought to help you:

"you didnt build that!"

"how to whine without sounding like a little bitch"

"i know i will never get laid but how do i sign up for free birth control - for the sissy liberal who likes to dream"

those sections ought to get you started.

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 04:31pm PT
That's it Bois show your true colors for all to see. Attack me personally and ignore the questions I pose.
I remember SkipT attacked me in much the same way right before being shown the door,
Your Mamas must be so proud.
The rest of us see you for frightened the fools you are.
You have no heritage except maybe a blind obedience to the doctrines of the Heritage Foundation. You are a trolling anonymous coward.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 4, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
bilo,

you still have not addressed debunking your highly intelligent questions posed to ron. which were full of lies by the way.

you appear to have this condition where you call others names and then you can't seem to understand why you get that same behaviour back.

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 05:05pm PT
Many family members still live in the open air prison of Israeli Occupation.
The Family still owns clear and legal title to well over a 100 million in property and assets in Palestine. They are however banned from ever seeing any off the land or buildings including the palatial family estate built by their own Grandfather's hands.
And for those of the Diaspora who did escape with their lives why should they have had to get the hell out of their own land?
And why would you consider being a dispossessed refugee a good thing?



Hawkeye I did address and correct your concern.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
Ron we know what in your chicken hawk heart you would do if you were an Israeli.
But I ask what would YOU (Ron) do if you were a Palestinian?
What means of defense and resistance would you allow yourself?

Please for once answer A SIMPLE QUESTION.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 4, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
Sorry the Palestine is controlled by Hamas. Maybe you and your folks you know should mass up and head on over and throw HAMAS out!

That's BS because Israel was treating them just as bad when Abbas, the most moderate leader the Israelis could have hoped for, was in charge. That's why they threw him out, because things weren't getting better.

And it's telling that as a direct result of Palestine taking the non-violent diplomatic move of getting observer status with the US, that Israel is moving forward with over 3000 new homes on the most sensitive part of Palestinian land, and withholding 120 million dollars that are clearly due to the Palestinians. The head of the UN says the new settlement homes would practically doom a two state solution

While there were times, like when we were killing the indians and moving them to reservations, when war and violence was a successful way to expand your empire. let's work to make those days a time of the past.

Otherwise, the tools are too dangerous for nations to play that game any more. Ironic that the Palestinians are "terrorists" when they try to defend their own land with rockets made with fertilizer. Give em f-16s, tanks, and advanced weapons and they can resort to targeted military strikes like the Israelis allegedly do with the approval of the US

Peace

Karl
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
Ron do you know the people of Gaza are in a prison they are not allowed to leave except by death.
So if you were invaded and occupied you would run away with your stubby tail between your legs?
And if you were not allowed to flee what then? Capitulate?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
So you can tacitly lend legitimacy to their desperate struggle against OCCUPATION which they have an Internationally recognized right to do but you would give them no means to fight back?

How would you fight back against F-16s, Tanks and helicopter gunships?
You know nothing of the daily plight of the Palestinians. You sir are an Anti-Semite.

You likely don't even know the definition of Semite.

But i WONT - cant with ANY integrity to my country , support any known terrorist state.
Well you clearly support the Zionists of Israel. You Hypocrite.
Did you know that prior to the Naqba the Palestinians had the largest population of Christian Arabs in the Arab world. Christians man, educated and sophisticated Christians. They were the second victims of Jewish terrorist gang violence. The first victims were indigenous Jews who had lived in peace with their Arab neighbors and did not agree with or support the actions of the immigrant Jews.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
Well what can I say as a proud American other than "Only gud injun is a dead injun".
It's all in the past so it doesn't matter.

And thousands of crude and ineffectual rockets From Gaza are history too. If it doesn't matter so why keep making an issue about it?
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Dec 4, 2012 - 05:51pm PT
Looks like the Egyptians love Obamas choice on who to side with. Our government has no idea how to deal with foreign affairs weather they are Republican or Democrat. We ourselves need to find out for ourselves what these people in other countries "really" want. Trusting government alone, weather it's Obama or Bush, obviously is getting us in more trouble. Right now for all intensive purposes the people of Egypt believe the "people" of the US picked this as their president and this is what their president is doing. And you wonder why some hate America so much. What they don't realize is that many Americans understand what they are going through and sympathize, but since our government appears to speak for us, it appears we are supporting this new regime. This government does not speak for many of us. It has it's own agenda. I guess it may speak for 51% of us.

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
Peace IS Possible.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 4, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
so philo argues about how great obama is, got it.

he argues about how great hilary is, got it.

and then he goes off on obama's foreign policy and increases in defense spending provided to israel.

keep informed bilo, YOUR government is throwing your palestinian buddies under the bus.

bilo, you might be missing something in your diet. your thinking is all over the map there buddy.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
Hey KochEye you really lack reading comprehension skills. Obama is the best President the Palestinians ever had to deal with. And I have been completely consistent.
Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Dec 4, 2012 - 08:43pm PT
I know cabbies and wait persons in the cities hosting the political conventions claim that Republicans are much more generous tippers than Democrats, and tax returns disclosed by candidates for public office almost uniformly show the Republicans pay a higher percentage of their incomes to charities than do Democrats.

John, the waitresses and bartenders I know say the worst tippers are in Newport Beach.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 4, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
Hawkeye, your guy lost.

You hear me boy?

Your man LOST.


So SUCK IT rightie BIOTCHES...suck it HARD...suck it DEEP...then SWALLOW.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 4, 2012 - 08:53pm PT
Your average Republican

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 5, 2012 - 03:29am PT
I would bet my life on one thing. If Bluey was born in Palestine, he'd be all for kicking ass, just like he is here in the US, where nobody took our homes or dropped bombs in our neighborhood, or restricted our every move.

Karl, do you support terrorist states..?


Dude, this notion of "Terrorist state" is a ploy by Israel and major powers to differentiate between major military powers, who kill 10x as many women and children as the "Terrorists" they call it Collateral damage.

Our drones strikes kill more innocents in a year than the Palestinians have killed in 10 years. They just call them "Militants" no matter what

I support Justice on all sides. It's sad when injustice creates a situation where more injustice is born

Peace

karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 5, 2012 - 04:12am PT
I think the example is a little distant for Bluering. Imagine bro, that for some crazy reason the powers were different and Arabs came and forced you out of your home, to move to isolated part of Nevada where you couldn't leave, work was scarce, and the Arabs shook you down constantly and dropped bombs on your hood.

And the Arabs made noises about granting you your own state there in Nevada, with their settlements mixed in everywhere and Las Vegas was quickly becoming all theirs.

What would you do? Just wait to negotiate even when you realized the real arab agenda was to squeeze you out, not make peace

Peace

Karl
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2012 - 09:50am PT
Well, that's neither here nor there. really whats going on rises above partisan politics. Here's one today. At a time of limited budgets, the US gov't still wants unlimited power and are willing to keep paying for it at your expense Karl.


"'Everyone in US under virtual surveillance' - NSA whistleblower

The FBI records the emails of nearly all US citizens, including members of congress, according to NSA whistleblower William Binney. In an interview with RT, he warned that the government can use this information against anyone.

Binney, one of the best mathematicians and code breakers in the history of the National Security Agency, resigned in 2001. He claimed he no longer wanted to be associated with alleged violations of the Constitution, such as how the FBI engages in widespread and pervasive surveillance through powerful devices called 'Naris.'

This year, Binney received the Callaway award, an annual prize that recognizes those who champion constitutional rights and American values at great risk to their personal or professional lives.

RT: In light of the Petraeus/Allen scandal while the public is so focused on the details of their family drama, one may argue that the real scandal in this whole story is the power, the reach of the surveillance state. I mean if we take General Allen – thousands of his personal e-mails have been sifted through private correspondence. It’s not like any of those men was planning an attack on America. Does the scandal prove the notion that there is no such thing as privacy in a surveillance state?

William Binney: Yes, that’s what I’ve been basically saying for quite some time, is that the FBI has access to the data collected, which is basically the emails of virtually everybody in the country. And the FBI has access to it. All the congressional members are on the surveillance too, no one is excluded. They are all included. So, yes, this can happen to anyone. If they become a target for whatever reason – they are targeted by the government, the government can go in, or the FBI, or other agencies of the government, they can go into their database, pull all that data collected on them over the years, and we analyze it all. So, we have to actively analyze everything they’ve done for the last 10 years at least.

RT: And it’s not just about those, who could be planning, who could be a threat to national security, but also those, who could be just…

WB: It’s everybody. The Naris device, if it takes in the entire line, so it takes in all the data. In fact they advertised they can process the lines at session rates, which means 10-gigabit lines. I forgot the name of the device (it’s not the Naris) – the other one does it at 10 gigabits. That’s why they're building Bluffdale [database facility], because they have to have more storage, because they can’t figure out what’s important, so they are just storing everything there. So, emails are going to be stored there in the future, but right now stored in different places around the country. But it is being collected – and the FBI has access to it.

RT: You mean it’s being collected in bulk without even requesting providers?

WB: Yes.

RT: Then what about Google, you know, releasing this biannual transparency report and saying that the government’s demands for personal data is at an all-time high and for all of those requesting the US, Google says they complied with the government’s demands 90 percent of the time. But they are still saying that they are making the request, it’s not like it’s all being funneled into that storage. What do you say to that?

WB: I would assume that it’s just simply another source for the same data they are already collecting. My line is in declarations in a court about the 18-T facility in San Francisco, that documented the NSA room inside that AST&T facility, where they had Naris devices to collect data off the fiber optic lines inside the United States. So, that’s kind of a powerful device, that would collect everything it was being sent. It could collect on the order over of 100 billion 1,000-character emails a day. One device.

RT: You say they sift through billions of e-mails. I wonder how do they prioritize? How do they filter it?

WB: I don’t think they are filtering it. They are just storing it. I think it’s just a matter of selecting when they want it. So, if they want to target you, they would take your attributes, go into that database and pull out all your data.

RT: Were you on the target list?

WB: Oh, sure! I believe I’ve been on it for quite a few years. So I keep telling them everything I think of them in my email. So that when they want to read it they’ll understand what I think of them.

RT: Do you think we all should leave messages for the NSA mail box?

WB: Sure!

RT: You blew the whistle on the agency when George W. Bush was the president. With President Obama in office, in your opinion, has anything changed at the agency, in the surveillance program? In what direction is this administration moving?

WB: The change is it’s getting worse. They are doing more. He is supporting the building of the Bluffdale facility, which is over two billion dollars they are spending on storage room for data. That means that they are collecting a lot more now and need more storage for it. That facility by my calculations that I submitted to the court for the Electronic Frontiers Foundation against NSA would hold on the order of 5 zettabytes of data. Just that current storage capacity is being advertised on the web that you can buy. And that’s not talking about what they have in the near future.

RT: What are they going to do with all of that? Ok, they are storing something. Why should anybody be concerned?

WB: If you ever get on the enemies list, like Petraeus did or… for whatever reason, than you can be drained into that surveillance.

RT: Do you think they would… General Petraeus, who was idolized by the same administration? Or General Allen?

WB: There are certainly some questions, that have to be asked, like why would they target it to begin with? What law were they breaking?

RT: In case of General Petraeus one would argue that there could have been security breaches. Something like that. But with General Allen – I don’t quite understand, because when they were looking into his private emails to this woman.

WB: That’s the whole point. I am not sure what the internal politics is… That’s part of the program. This government doesn’t want things in the public. It’s not a transparent government. Whatever the reason or the motivation was, I don’t really know, but I certainly think that there was something going on in the background that made them target those fellows. Otherwise why would they be doing it? There is no crime there.

RT: It seems that the public is divided between those, who think that the government surveillance program violates their civil liberties, and those who say, 'I’ve nothing to hide. So, why should I care?' What do you say to those who think that it shouldnt concern them.

WB: The problem is if they think they are not doing anything that’s wrong, they don’t get to define that. The central government does, the central government defines what is right and wrong and whether or not they target you. So, it’s not up to the individuals. Even if they think they aren't doing something wrong, if their position on something is against what the administration has, then they could easily become a target.

RT: Tell me about the most outrageous thing that you came across during your work at the NSA.

WB: The violations of the constitution and any number of laws that existed at the time. That was the part that I could not be associated with. That’s why I left. They were building social networks on who is communicating and with whom inside this country. So that the entire social network of everybody, of every US citizen was being compiled overtime. So, they are taking from one company alone roughly 320 million records a day. That’s probably accumulated probably close to 20 trillion over the years.

The original program that we put together to handle this to be able to identify terrorists anywhere in the world and alert anyone that they were in jeopardy. We would have been able to do that by encrypting everybody’s communications except those who were targets. So, in essence you would protect their identities and the information about them until you could develop probable cause, and once you showed your probable cause, then you could do a decrypt and target them. And we could do that and isolate those people all alone. It wasn’t a problem at all. There was no difficulty in that.

RT: It sounds very difficult and very complicated. Easier to take everything in and…

WB: No. It’s easier to use the graphing techniques, if you will, for the relationships for the world to filter out data, so that you don’t have to handle all that data. And it doesn’t burden you with a lot more information to look at, than you really need to solve the problem.

RT: Do you think that the agency doesn’t have the filters now?

WB: No.

RT: You have received the Callaway award for civic courage. Congratulations! On the website and in the press release it says: “It is awarded to those, who stand out for constitutional rights and American values at great risk to their personal or professional lives.” Under the code of spy ethics – I don’t know if there is such a thing – your former colleagues, they probably look upon you as a traitor. How do you look back at them?

WB: That’s pretty easy. They are violating the foundation of this entire country. Why this entire government was formed? It’s founded with the Constitution and the rights were given to the people in the country under that Constitution. They are in violation of that. And under executive order 13526, section 1.7 – you can not classify information to just cover up a crime, which this is, and that was signed by President Obama. Also President Bush signed it earlier as an executive order, a very similar one. If any of this comes into Supreme Court and they rule it unconstitutional, then the entire house of cards of the government falls.

RT: What are the chances of that? What are the odds?

WB: The government is doing the best they can to try to keep it out of court. And, of course, we are trying to do the best we can to get into court. So, we decided it deserves a ruling from the Supreme Court. Ultimately the court is supposed to protect the Constitution. All these people in the government take an oath to defend the Constitution. And they are not living up to the oath of office. "


http://rt.com/usa/news/surveillance-spying-e-mail-citizens-178/
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 6, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
Ron, dude, give it up, you're like a rabid parrot except you have all the facts wrong.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 6, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
Electronic surveillance is a complex deal on a lot of fronts.

First, technology has greatly been outpacing the law.

Second, few folks are going to commit crimes or acts of terror without a digital footprint somewhere along the way.

Third, we are now by and large a digital society; protecting that society and the nation must unavoidably have a digital component as well as our technology is unfortunately built on a vulnerable foundation from the chips on out to the network and devices.

Overall, this issue is one of a myriad of issues we are wrestling with related to the 'newness' of these technologies and their use in our society and lives. It will take decades to sort out how we are going to live in relationship to these technologies.

You can spout constitution this and constitution that, but hey, get serious, no one back then had the slightest inkling what was coming down the pike. That the police, military, intelligence agency have run amok with it is to be expected to some extent and you can also assume a pendulum is swinging here and at a certain point it will force these issues up the judicial system an issue at a time which, again, will take decades.

And there are unavoidable trade-offs in the use of technology. For instance, the only way to make computing secure is to toss everything we do now and re-engineer it from the chips up with security in mind which is basically a complete makeover of our entire technology stack. You also have to be able to authenticate and authorize all use of cpu, storage, network, and device resources or you're right back in the shitter. But to do all that you might as well issue everyone a national identity card as it will all but be the same thing when you buy a secure device.

With regard to the Narus systems, the technical challenges are less the capture and more around storage (even transient storage) and analysis. Is it possible to collect, store, and analyze all the communications of the populace of NYC for say a day? Maybe, but that analysis would take more way than a day which pretty much puts you behind the curve day one. About all you can do in real time is some pretty gross key word alerting, but beyond that you have to be able to narrow the scope of what you are looking for to in order to really have a shot at being successful finding a drop of water in that ocean of data. And you'd probably have to be able to narrow down the search scope pretty fast or the data you're hoping for will have scrolled into oblivion at the other end of whatever their storage period is.

Is it a concern, sure, but I do have some faith it will get sorted out in time and cases like Patraeus and Allen will help insure it get's sorted out.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 7, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
Had to laugh when I ran accross this bid advertisement today

Searchlight NV is Dingy Harry Reed's home town.

There's an RFB out to put locking covers on all the manholes.

I guess thievery goes with the territory.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 7, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
Ron, dude, you're the only belligerent I run across in daily life and not one who really trucks much with reality.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 10, 2012 - 12:48pm PT
Palestine? Gaza? WTF?

How about Pine Ridge?

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 10, 2012 - 12:56pm PT
Another SEAL member kia in Afghanistan while rescuing an American Doctor being held there...

What do you think, should we just get out of Afghanistan? We getting nothing for ourselves there and as soon as we leave, whenever that is, they're going back to whatever they want. Why are we wasting lives and money there?

Peace

Karl
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 10, 2012 - 01:27pm PT
The Democrat paradise.



Why work?

Let someone else do that.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 10, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
Why work?

Let someone else do that.


I know right? Like the blue states? You do know which states suck off the teat the most eh?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 10, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
^^^ Brought to you by the 2016 Republican Crash and Burn Campaign.
WBraun

climber
Dec 10, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
Here's a weird one.

Intelligence Organizations Partner with Internet Crime

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/12/09/scamsters-spies-and-trolls-an-internet-story/
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
Karl said:
"Dude, this notion of "Terrorist state" is a ploy by Israel and major powers to differentiate between major military powers, who kill 10x as many women and children as the "Terrorists" they call it Collateral damage.

Our drones strikes kill more innocents in a year than the Palestinians have killed in 10 years. They just call them "Militants" no matter what"

I won't disagree on the drone strikes. I'm bothered that the President, who claimed to be a "constitutional scholar" is using them to kill innocent American civilians because he decides he should. As far as your support of Palestine. Karl, sometime you just have to pick a side and do your best. I keep seeing you supporting the Palestinians (Philo as well). Maybe you read this today in the news. Mashaal, the leader of Hamas, has just effectively re-iterated that he will not negotiate the fact that all of Israel is theirs, and that the Zionists need to move elsewhere. This is the link to the Arab version, of course, somehow the Jewish version, whereby they feel that full translation is that they will be snuffed, is more alarmist.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/12/20121284378161786.html

You can only pick one Karl, "justice for all" can only be had by voting for Israel:

Jew
Muslim

Pick one only. That's the choice that the Palestinians are demanding. If you pick Jew, things continue as they are. Where Muslim citizens of Israel can vote and are equal to Jews. (of course there are examples of discrimination don't bother listing them all, it's no different in this country - don't make me list examples) Pick Muslim and the Jews will need swimming lessons before they are forced into the Mediterranean. Doing nothing is not a choice, it is choosing death to the Jews. Israel is the only country the Jews have. Read the Hams charter: "jews get out of Palestine (Israel) alive or dead" is an accurate summation.

Hamas doesn't want to give an inch here, there is no negotiating or compromising. Kill or be killed and GTFOut is being pitched by Mashaal, and this has always been a reoccurring theme from Hamas starting with their charter. No compromise.What are the Israelis suppose to do? Walk peacefully into the ovens so that Hamas can rule the only part of the middle east not controlled by Muslims already? The fact that Israel is a democracy and that the Muslim Israeli citizens can vote makes a difference to you does it not?

It's an easy choice for me, every other country in that area is already Muslim, and they have trouble getting along with each other, let alone with us, no matter what brand of religious intolerance they exhibit and support. I vote support for Israel, which is also a vote for democracy and the rule of rational law.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 10, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
TGT, show me how to get $168 a day.

SNAP Food stamps are about $4 a day for a single person.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 10, 2012 - 01:52pm PT
I'm bothered that the President, who claimed to be a "constitutional scholar" is using them to kill innocent American civilians because he decides he should.

Ok dude, I gotta know exactly which "innocent" civilians the president has been whacking with drone strikes.

How about just a modicum of care in what kind of bullshit you write?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
Talking the 16 year old boy Bruce: an unarmed US civi, and his friend who were killed in Yemen in the Al Alawaki strike. The President has reiterated exactly what I stated above that it is his right to make the call to murder or execute as he choses, and he reviews suggested targets weekly he has said.

Werner, if that is anywhere close to true, how long to you think that will stay up? LOL. BTW, talk about houey. Obama was chosen by drug cartels? Please. Every level?

You believe this?
"Drug cartels operating at a “street value” of up to three trillion dollars per year, Afghanistan, Iraq, Kosovo/Albania, Colombia and Mexico, control every level of American government, not just state, local and, of course, Washington, but police agencies, the courts and have penetrated the legal profession, law schools, universities and all major financial institutions."

the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Dec 10, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
It's interesting to see how easy it is to fool some people, who want to be fooled.

"Welfare", primarily Food Stamps and Medicaid, account for about 5% of the Federal Budget and it's usually the FIRST thing some people talk about when cutting spending. Meanwhile Defense spending is 20% or 4X "welfare" but the same people usually want to increase that.
John M

climber
Dec 10, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
That graph of TGT's is funny. It probably includes social security and medicare which the GOP deems to be welfare. Thats one of the GOPs problems, they don't define terms. Any program that they don't like they call welfare or socialism.

ack.. you are a tiresome person TGT.. go ahead. quit working if you hate it so much and think that so much free stuff is being given away. See what happens in your twisted little world.

They call unemployment insurance "welfare" also.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 10, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
Sorry couch, my apologies.

"Anyone who thought U.S. targeted killing outside of armed conflict was a narrow, emergency-based exception to the requirement of due process before a death sentence is being proven conclusively wrong," said Hina Shamsi, director of the American Civil Liberties Union’s National Security Project, in a statement. "The danger of dispensing with due process is obvious because without it, we cannot be assured that the people in the government's death database truly present a concrete, imminent threat to the country. What we do know is that tragic mistakes have been made, hundreds of civilian bystanders have died, and our government has even killed a 16-year-old U.S. citizen without acknowledging, let alone explaining his death. A bureaucratized paramilitary killing program that targets people far from any battlefield is not just unlawful, it will create more enemies than it kills."

Good to know you're a staunch supporter of the ACLU though. Too bad all the INNOCENT Iraqis and Afghanis couldn't get a little more due process too eh?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 10, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
Nope, just food stamps, welfare and SS Disability which has gone parabolic since Barry came to town.
John M

climber
Dec 10, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
SS Disability is not income related, meaning that you can be above the poverty line and still get SSD. Its just part of your social security benefits. So if it is included, then no wonder the graph is skewed. SSI is income related. In case you are not aware, SSI is supplemental security income. It is for those whose SSD is below the poverty line and only supplements the SSD.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 10, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
Hamas doesn't want to give an inch here, there is no negotiating or compromising.

I don't believe that accurately reflects what Hamas has just said. What they've said is that they will never acknowledge the right of an Israeli state to exist within the borders of pre-1946 Palestine. But in practically the same breath they basically say that they are willing to live with an Israeli state they still will not recognize so long as it's based on the '67 boundaries.

Semantics maybe, but important semantics to them.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 10, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
Jessie Jackson Jr.

Resigns in disgrace and the two top contenders for his replacement are a convicted fellon pervert (Mel Reynolds)

And this guy, Trotter.

Last week we reported on Democratic Illinois state Sen. Donne Trotter, who faces felony gun charges after attempting to take a handgun onto an aircraft. Trotter’s troubles bring the number of Illinois Democrats facing serious charges to three, and the mystery around Trotter himself has deepened.

After his arrest, 62-year-old Trotter claimed that he had the gun, a .25 caliber Berretta, due to his second job as a security guard. His job as state senator pays $67,000 per year plus lucrative per diem when the Illinois Senate is in session.

Trotter has been in the Illinois Assembly for 24 years. But while the company he claims employs him as a security guard, All Points Security and Detective Company, lists him as an employee, he never disclosed this employment on any of his campaign finance records. He is not answering questions about the second job. Neither is All Points.

But All Points has large government contracts. Trotter’s mysterious employment with the company, plus his failure to disclose said employment as the law requires on his campaign finance documents, raises the possibility that his security guard job is a payoff scheme.

Trotter is among the Democrats vying for the US House seat recently vacated by Jesse Jackson Jr.


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 10, 2012 - 02:38pm PT

Well, kleptomania is a mental illness.



More on the numbers.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-27/when-work-punished-tragedy-americas-welfare-state
John M

climber
Dec 10, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
Hey TGT. where did you get the graph on welfare? Link please..
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 10, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
As far as your support of Palestine. Karl, sometime you just have to pick a side and do your best. I keep seeing you supporting the Palestinians (Philo as well). Maybe you read this today in the news. Mashaal, the leader of Hamas, has just effectively re-iterated that he will not negotiate the fact that all of Israel is theirs, and that the Zionists need to move elsewhere. This is the link to the Arab version, of course, somehow the Jewish version, whereby they feel that full translation is that they will be snuffed, is more alarmist.


Just because you say "Choose a side" doesn't mean that's two. Two wrongs don't make a right and often a big wrong creates another wrong. If some country attacked the US in earnest and seriously messed up a few cities here, we'd probably nuke em and kill tons of civilians.

Hamas was elected in Gaza partly in response to the lack of justice and progress being made for the Palestinians. If Israel hadn't be continually increasing settlement activity on Palestinian land, and oppressing them in other ways needlessly, I might have more sympathy for them.

As it is, Both the leaders of both sides are evil, and so I support new leadership on both sides

Peace

Karl
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
Karl, can you show me a link to where the Palestinian leaders have said anything resembling "We want to live and let live" or "We support Israels right to exist". I believe that Abbas has said it one time. Yet the rest are quiet about it, and in fact, insist on the opposite.

It seems to me, that the Jews don't feel like being massacred: and they take steps to avoid it. They want security and life.

If you have links indicating that the Jews are ignoring that, I'd love to see it.



"I don't believe that accurately reflects what Hamas has just said. What they've said is that they will never acknowledge the right of an Israeli state to exist within the borders of pre-1946 Palestine. But in practically the same breath they basically say that they are willing to live with an Israeli state they still will not recognize so long as it's based on the '67 boundaries.

Semantics maybe, but important semantics to them."

"The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[1] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter or

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp


They forgot to mention any borders in there. Polite way of saying, move along to the ovens bitte in my mind......Maybe you have some links wherein the Hamas leadership has renounced their charter or say that peace with Israel or the right of any Jew to live is of the slightest importance to them? They lost the war, several in fact and it's still on: and they are paying the price. They could have radically different, and better, lives had they chosen differently.

Words, like those in the Charter or Mein Kampf, are not to be ignored unless it's at our peril.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 10, 2012 - 08:20pm PT
Their best and brightest.


[Click to View YouTube Video]


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 10, 2012 - 08:25pm PT
I wasn't referring to the charter but to the remarks by the leader of Hamas' during his recent visit to Gaza. But, if I were Palestinian rather than Irish, I'd for sure be a member of Hamas given this map:


By what right?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 10, 2012 - 11:07pm PT
I wasn't referring to the charter but to the remarks by the leader of Hamas' during his recent visit to Gaza. But, if I were Palestinian rather than Irish, I'd for sure be a member of Hamas given this map:

Of course! Because if you were a jew-hating member of Hamas you would crush little jew-skulls with you rifle-butt in the name of freedom.

Jews realize this sh#t and chose to defend themselves from the murderers. So f*#k off!

Anytime a jewish girl has her brains bashed in they call it some form of liberation or legit retaliation.

When Jews defend themselves, it's hate. Meh!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 10, 2012 - 11:13pm PT
Do you understand the concept of, "Defensible borders and ,to the winners go the spoils?"

Israel never asked to be attacked. Nor did they provoke it. It was jew-hate that inspired the attacks in 45 and 67.

The Jews won! Fair and square!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 10, 2012 - 11:20pm PT
How did Israel provoke the attacks on their Statehood in 1945-46, or in 1967? Explain.

EDIT:
Its a two way street blue.


No it's not~! Jews are targeting innocent arabs? When they find them alive the bash their skulls in?

NO. Israelis take wounded Arabs to Jewish hospitals for top-notch care.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 10, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
It's amazing that just because you guys spout certain sh#t you here, you think it's true.

Read the Israeli links as well, the ones that Amnesty and Human Rights Watch never get back to you on.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 10, 2012 - 11:26pm PT
Sure blue.. the palistinians are the bad people and the jews have never done anything bad. Got it.


I never said that, but you have the general idea. Yes.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 10, 2012 - 11:31pm PT
And, hey, I aint saying the Paleos are "bad". They just backed the wrong as#@&%es! Like Egypt!

They will have to suffer for that, just as we will suffer for re-electing Obama.

It will suck. But we (you idiots) voted for it.....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 10, 2012 - 11:34pm PT
Ohhhh, we have a doctor in the haus!!!

Meh.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 11, 2012 - 12:07am PT
And US liberals actually support the Palestinian's seceding from Israel - the same as we support wing nuts like you seceding from the US

See, we agree on something!

Does this coincide with liberals supporting the deposing of Mubarak as ruler of Egypt in favor of the Muslim Brotherhood and Morsi?

And Assad for "soemthing else"?

Libya is all cool now, right?

EDIT:
How did Israel provoke the attacks on their Statehood in 1945-46, or in 1967? Explain.

Did anybody answer this question????
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 11, 2012 - 12:23am PT
Yes of course, in Repub Fantasy World, this is exactly what happened - liberals knew who would be replacing Mubarak

And you of course formed that opinion based on sourced, attributed journalism from reputable, internationally respected media outlets, which you can cite, and not out of the same orifice you excrete your solid bodily waste from


Um, no. Your president fomented this. Remember, the Arab Spring? This is on you idiots! You called for this. You OWN IT!!!!

People like me told you f*#king idiots this would backfire!!!! Who would fill the power--vacuum??? Idiots!
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 11, 2012 - 12:37am PT
Couchmaster,

A couple of points...

It's not "Muslims vs. Jews" in Palestine, there are many Christian Palestinians that are subject to the same humiliations of occupation. As for Hamas, Israel is as much to blame for Hamas' rising influence in the region as anyone. Even ignoring their early support and funding as a religious foil to the secular Fatah, they have continued to play the various factions against each other to ensure that there is no "credible partner" to negotiate with. It's no surprise that helping make Fatah ineffectual has led to Hamas gaining power.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 11, 2012 - 12:45am PT
Froodish, Israel supported FATA, not HAMAS.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 11, 2012 - 12:48am PT
Blue, you might want to bone up on your history a bit.

Edit: This article from the commies at the WSJ wouldn't be a bad place to start:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 11, 2012 - 04:58am PT
How did Israel provoke the attacks on their Statehood in 1945-46,

They unilaterally declared themselves a state (just like they decry the Palestinians for doing)

Remember, there were less than 10,000 jews in Israel at the turn of the 20th century. England was the colonial power who ruled that land there (as if they had ANY right to do that, or give the land to people who weren't even living there) very convenient for everyone but the Palestinians.

and of course they won and got the spoils, only by virtue of being supported by modern western weapons

Peace

Karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 11, 2012 - 05:02am PT
They forgot to mention any borders in there. Polite way of saying, move along to the ovens bitte in my mind....

Dude, it's Israel that refuses to suggest what it's borders should be and is in defiance of UN resolutions calling for it to return to its 1967 borders which were still far in excess of it's UN mandate

Peace

Karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 11, 2012 - 05:36am PT
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/12/09-0

Walid al Nassasra and two of his daughters stand staring into the pit where his brothers sheet-metal roofed, cinder-block home stood until it was hit in a pin-point strike with a precision guided bomb from an F-16 fighter jet (provided by the United States) on 19 Nov 2012 at 10 pm as the family slept. If not for the clothes and bedding strewn about, it would be difficult to tell that a home once stood here. His brother Taqwfiq, like Walid, is a farmer. Their family has been farming in the Rafah area of Gaza for 35 years. They are poor people, scratching out a living on a small plot of land. As we sat and talked with Walid, Israeli F-16's roared across the sky.

His brother as well as a 12 year old nephew remains hospitalized, the nephew is in the ICU with skull and hip fractures. His sister-in-law is blind after her head and upper body was severely burned.

His 4 year-old niece suffers severe burns and a fractured leg stabilized by an external fixation device. In this kind of reduction, holes are drilled into uninjured areas of bones around the fracture and special bolts or wires are screwed into the holes. Outside the body, a rod or a curved piece of metal with special ball-and-socket joints joins the bolts to make a rigid support. The fracture can be set in the proper anatomical configuration by adjusting the ball-and-socket joints. Since the bolts pierce the skin, proper cleaning to prevent infection at the site surgery must be performed. Yes, I said his niece is 4 years old. She has been released to the home. They bring her to us to show us her damaged body, her face covered in burns, her leg with eight metal screws holding it together. She is crying. All 9 surviving members of the family were injured in the blast.

Two nephews, Ahmed and Mohamed, were killed. (Yes, every Martyr, innocent civilian, and resistance fighter here has a name. Everyone killed here has family left behind who grieves for them. Everyone.)

There was no warning given. No calls, no leaflets, no roof tapping. Just an enormous explosion in the night that made Walid think his house was bombed, eighty meters away, as all the windows exploded and the walls rattled.

When Walid was asked what he would say to the people of the US, he said, "The American people already received our message. During 'Cast Lead' the American people saw that the majority of the martyrs and injuries were civilians, and they didn't do anything. They deal with Israel as if it is a state in America."

President Obama said, "There’s no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders." We supply the planes, we supply the bombs, we supply the vetoes at the UN Security Council that gives cover to these crimes. We as Americans are complicit. The question is, "How much longer will we tolerate it?"


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 11, 2012 - 06:31am PT
Ya gotta love republicans - first they decide all we need to do is tip a domino or two in the Mideast and democracy will spread like wildfire. When the resulting democracies aren't to their liking it's somehow the democrats' fault. Hilarious if it weren't so savagely ignorant and hypocritical.

P.S. Blue, hey as one of those unique long-haired, doper, religious, code-word racists, just how is it the Jews get a pass - or is it just one of those evangelical deals where you only diss them under your breath among each other?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 11, 2012 - 07:22am PT
A wee history lesson for BlueBalls, CrouchFaster, Rong and tEEEEgEEEEtEEEE.


http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2010/10/03/the-deathmasters-israeli-massacres-on-palestinians/

The following list of massacres is by no means exclusive, but they reflect the nature of the Zionist occupation of Palestine and Lebanon and show that massacres and expulsions were not aberrations that happen in any war, but organized atrocities with only one aim, that is to have a Zionist state which is ‘goyim rein’.

The King David Massacre
The Massacre at Baldat al-Shaikh
Yehida Massacre
Khisas Massacre
QAZAZA MASSACRE
The Semiramis Hotel Massacre
The Massacre at Dair Yasin
NASER AL-DIN MASSACRE
THE TANTURA MASSACRE
BEIT DARAS MASSACRE
THE DAHMASH MOSQUE MASSACRE
DAWAYMA MASSACRE
HOULA MASSACRE
SHARAFAT MASSACRE
Salha Massacre
The Massacre at Qibya
KAFR QASEM MASSACRE
Khan Yunis Massacre
The Massacre in Gaza City
Al-Sammou’ Massacre
Aitharoun Massacre
Kawnin Massacre
Hanin Massacre
Bint Jbeil Massacre
Abbasieh Massacre
Adloun Massacre
Saida Massacre
Fakhani Massacre
Beirut Massacre Sabra And Shatila Massacre
Jibsheet Massacre
Sohmor Massacre
Seer Al Garbiah
Maaraka Massacres
Zrariah Massacre
Homeen Al-Tahta Massacre
Jibaa Massacre
Yohmor Massacre
Tiri massacre
Al-Naher Al-Bared Massacre
Ain Al-Hilweh Massacre
Oyoun Qara Massacre
Siddiqine Massacre
A-Aqsa Mosqie Massacre
The Ibrahimi Mosque Massacre
The Jabalia Massacre
Aramta Massacre
Eretz Checkpoint Massacre
Deir Al-Zahrani Massacre
Nabatiyeh (school bus) Massacre
Mnsuriah Massacre
The Sohmor Second Massacre
Nabatyaih Massacre
Qana Massacre
Trqumia Massacr
Janta Massacre
24 Of June 1999 Massacres
Western Bekaa villages Massacre:
The Gaza Cast Lead Massacre (2008-2009)
The Mavi Marmara Massacre May 31, 2010
The Nakba Day Massacre May 15, 2011
The ongoing Silent or Silenced Massacre
The June 5 2011 Naksa Day Massacre
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 11, 2012 - 07:29am PT
And another.
http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2012/03/11/the-rocket-from-gaza-myth-photography/


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 11, 2012 - 07:47am PT
One more lesson for good measure.


4 myths about the Israeli attack on Gaza
by Pam Bailey on November 20, 2012 38

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/11/4-myths-about-the-israeli-attack-on-gaza.html


As Israel continues to pound the Gaza Strip, and factions within the beleaguered territory retaliate as best they can, there are many myths and stereotypes dominating mainstream media coverage, and many conversations.

Here are a few of the most common misunderstandings:

Myth: Hamas started the round of fighting that led to Israel’s “Operation Pillar of Defense.”

Fact: This myth represents a common error in mainstream – and even much progressive – media coverage. The “truth” all depends on when you start the timeline. What is clear is that while both Israel and resistance groups in Gaza bear responsibility for keeping the warfare going, Israel is more often the precipitator.

In an analysis that has received very little attention by Western audiences, Nancy Kanwisher (the Walter A. Rosenblith Professor of Cognitive Neuroscience at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology) asks, “As Israel and Palestine suffer a hideous new spasm of terror, misery and mayhem, it is important to ask how this situation came about…How did the (last) ceasefire unravel?”

President Barak Obama and the mainstream media in the United States and Israel place the blame squarely on Hamas. It is true that a barrage of Palestinian rockets have been fired into Israel, and that ending this rocket fire is the stated goal of the current Israeli invasion of Gaza. However, this simplistic summary leaves out crucial facts. Consider this chain of events, which followed a “lull” of sorts over the previous couple of weeks: (The details of what took place during these days vary somewhat from one media outlet to another. However, the broad strokes are the same.)

· Nov. 4: Israel killed a mentally ill Palestinian walking near the Israeli-imposed “no-go zone” inside the Gaza Strip -- an event that triggered a rocket from Gaza into southern Israel, which did not cause any deaths or injuries.

· Nov. 8: Four Israeli military tanks and a bulldozer entered Gaza, fatally shooting a 13-year-old boy who had been playing soccer by his family’s house.

· Nov. 10: In retaliation, two rockets were fired from Gaza into southern Israel, and an anti-tank missile injured four soldiers, when it hit an Israeli army jeep that had crossed over into the territory. Meanwhile, the Palestinian Center for Human Rights reported the killing of five more Palestinians, four of whom were civilians – including two soccer players age 16 and 17 and two young men (18 and 19) who ran to the scene. Forty-nine others were wounded, including 10 children.

· Nov. 11: Amid talks of a truce, six more Palestinians (all but one were civilians) were wounded and another was killed by both air strikes and troops on the ground.

· Nov. 12: With Israeli air strikes continuing, two rockets from Gaza hit Israel.

· Nov. 13: After two mid-afternoon air strikes, news services announced a truce had been agreed-upon.

· Nov. 14: Israel ignored the nascent truce and assassinated Hamas military chief Ahmad al-Jabari. (It is questionable whether Israeli officials ever really wanted a truce. As Phyllis Bennis from the Institute for Policy Studies wrote in The Nation: “Earlier this year, on the third anniversary of the Gaza assault of 2008/9, Israeli Army Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Benny Gantz told Army Radio that Israel will need to attack Gaza again soon, to restore what he called its power of ‘deterrence.’ He said the assault must be ‘swift and painful,’ concluding, ‘we will act when the conditions are right.’ Perhaps this was his chosen moment.”)

A fact not known by most Americans, who see Jabari as merely a leader of “terrorists,” is that Israeli activist Gershon Baskin confirmed that Jabari was engaged in peace settlement negotiations with Israel. In fact, he was due to send Hamas’ version of a draft agreement to Baskin on the Wednesday evening before he was killed. It’s worth asking: Did Israel intend to torpedo those efforts?

The rest of the story is tragic history. Jabari’s killing triggered Operation Pillar of Defense, and it continues to unfold.

“It is overwhelmingly Israel that kills first after a pause in the conflict,” writes Kanwisher, who analyzed the entire timeline of killings between Palestinians and Israelis from September 2000 to October 2008, to determine if there was a historical pattern. “Seventy-nine percent of all conflict pauses (during the study period) were interrupted when Israel killed a Palestinian, while only 8% were interrupted by Palestinian attacks (the remaining 13% were interrupted by both sides on the same day). In addition, we found that this pattern -- in which Israel is more likely than Palestine to kill first after a conflict pause -- becomes more pronounced for longer (ceasefires). Indeed, of the 25 periods of nonviolence lasting longer than a week, Israel unilaterally interrupted 24, or 96%, and it unilaterally interrupted 100% of the 14 periods of nonviolence lasting longer than nine days.”

One of the lessons from these data, she writes, is, “If Israel wants to reduce rocket fire from Gaza, it should cherish and preserve the peace when it starts to break out, not be the first to kill.”

Myth: Israel is killing militant “targets.”

Fact: The victims are humans, not “targets.” They have names, families, stories worth telling.

At the close of Nov. 19, Euro-Mid Observer for Human Rights reported that 110 Palestinians had been killed, including 25 children, 14 senior citizens and 12 women. Seventy-two percent were civilians, with no active involvement in the resistance. Another 891 Palestinians (including 277 children, 164 women and 62 seniors) had been wounded.

[In contrast, various Israeli sources report a total of 664 rockets from Gaza have hit southern Israel. Three Israeli civilians have been killed and a reported 10 civilians and four soldiers have been injured.]

In an iconic photograph circulated widely on the Internet, Jihad Misharawi, a BBC Arabic journalist who lives in Gaza, carries the body of his 11-month old son, Omar, through al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City. A round of Israeli missile fire hit Misharawi’s four-room home in Gaza, killing his son. Misharawi’s sister-in-law was also killed, and his brother wounded. He told his manager at BBC that when the missiles hit, there was no fighting in his residential neighborhood.

The killing of Misharawi’s son received so much attention because he works for a major Western news outlet, and his agony was captured so graphically on film. However, there are many other stories that are not being told. With one of the youngest populations in the world, over half of Gaza's 1.7 million residents are aged under 18.

In May, 2012 Salon columnist Glenn Greenwald observed: “Virtually every time the U.S. [or Israel] fires a missile and ends the lives of Muslims, American media outlets dutifully trumpet in headlines that the dead were ‘militants’ – even though those media outlets literally do not have the slightest idea of who was actually killed. They simply cite always-unnamed ‘officials’ claiming that the dead were ‘militants.’ It’s the most obvious and inexcusable form of rank propaganda: media outlets continuously propagating a vital claim without having the slightest idea if it’s true.”

In the words of one Gazan Palestinian, on Facebook: We are not numbers, we are humans! We have names, we have families, we have kids, we have emotions, we have feelings .... Every life has a story ... Just like you and just like any human being! We are not f*#king news and death reports!! We are not F*#king Numbers!! We are HUMAN SOULS.

Myth: Israel protects civilians by airdropping leaflets warning residents of Gaza to avoid locations and individuals affiliated with Hamas.

Fact: In the last five days, Israel has bombed an estimated 1,643 sites in an area that is just 140 square miles – about twice the size of Washington DC. Hamas is the party that runs the local government. The question must be asked: Just where are the people supposed to hide?

Myth: Retaliation by Palestinians is either terrorism or just plain stupidity. The former is the common belief of advocates of Zionism, and the latter is a frequent concern (albeit not often expressed openly) among liberal supporters of Palestinian rights.

Fact: The right to self-defense (most often through “retaliation”) is enshrined in international law and was America’s own first response after it was attacked on Sept. 11, 2001. Why was it ethical for the U.S., but not for Palestinians?

As one young Gazan wrote on Facebook: “When you see your family killed by Israeli soldiers in front of your eyes and you see your house demolished in front of you, you feel so angry that you want to fight back. But once you fight back, you are called a terrorist and the aggressor becomes the victim who has the right of defense.”

Catherine Charratt, a PhD candidate in international politics at the UK’s Aberystwyth University, recently wrote:
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 11, 2012 - 07:49am PT
And for emphasis;

**
Myth: Israel protects civilians by airdropping leaflets warning residents of Gaza to avoid locations and individuals affiliated with Hamas.

Fact: In the last five days, Israel has bombed an estimated 1,643 sites in an area that is just 140 square miles – about twice the size of Washington DC. Hamas is the party that runs the local government. The question must be asked: Just where are the people supposed to hide?
**


My own children have aunts, uncles and cousins living in the Palestinian Territories under Israel's ILLEGAL OCCUPATION.
How long will it take CockEye to come forth to spittle frothy santorum about how wrong, ignorant and off base I am.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2012 - 09:54am PT
Philo, and how many rockets, did you say, were fired INTO Israel before they got pissed and responded? As far as unbalanced response, have we EVER done less when provoked similarly??


"It's not "Muslims vs. Jews" in Palestine, there are many Christian Palestinians that are subject to the same humiliations of occupation. As for Hamas, Israel is as much to blame for Hamas' rising influence in the region as anyone. Even ignoring their early support and funding as a religious foil to the secular Fatah, they have continued to play the various factions against each other to ensure that there is no "credible partner" to negotiate with. It's no surprise that helping make Fatah ineffectual has led to Hamas gaining power."

Somewhat true, however, Christians can (and do) vote, and worship as they choose and are treated as Christians in the US are except they have not elected a Christian leader....yet, whereas we have not elected a Jewish one. The Christians are not continually calling for the death of all Jews. That Israel plays off the various factions is one way to keep them from taking your scalp.

Joseph, it is a good point about the territorial grab, but if the alternative is death, what do you expect them to do? They are at war and have been since it's founding, deeply ideologically torn between 2 opposing points of views and beliefs. One side (only) will be the victor, Karl doesn't get to have everyone hold hands and sing Kumbayah despite his best wishes. Won't happen. Pick one side. That's all we have here until the Muslims decide to allow the jews their own country.
shakin' man

Trad climber
california
Dec 11, 2012 - 11:58am PT
I couldn't hear this newsworthy item on our swarthy president through the din of this forum. I think it looks more like his wife.

http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/10/15823225-ancient-lizard-that-died-out-with-the-dinosaurs-named-after-obama?lite

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 11, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
Oh Couch when will you quit eating the pabulum of the one sided narrative you have been stewed in? How much weight of evidence will you require before you question your beliefs even a little?

There have been 24 Israeli incursions into Gaza since the cease fire. Since Israel "disengaged" from Gaza there have been on average six military incursions a month by the IDF into the Occupied Territories. Oh but you are convinced that all Israelis are innocent victims and that all Palestinians are evil blood thirsty terrorists. I feel sorry for you and your skewed perspective.

Pre 1948 Palestine had the highest level of literacy in the Arab world. They had the highest percentage of college educated people in the Arab world. They had the highest percentage of Christian Arabs in the Arab world. They had one of the highest standards of living in the region.

Now they are reduced to being prisoners fighting for survival in their own land.
The US is set to send Israel $627,000,000 more of our tax monies as military aid to resupply the weapons stock depleted after their last episode of war crimes.

From the beginning Israel has been the aggressor with the clear agenda of eliminating the indigenous Semitic peoples from their intended Kingdom of Greater Israel.

Supporting the Zionist Agenda makes you an Anti-Semite.



philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 11, 2012 - 02:02pm PT

PSSSST hey Ron news flash it wasn't Palestinians either.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 11, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
it wasnt JEWS who flew planes into the towers. It wasnt a jewish underwear or shoe bomber either. Nor was the guy that went to blow up Manhattan. Nor was the Ft Hood Shooter, or the four Californians who were going to afghanistan to blow up US troops.


PSSSST hey Ron news flash it wasn't Palestinians either.


perhaps not, but it was the PLO, then Hamas. And thats who makes the calls there.



PLO, HAMAS really where? Are you claiming the Palestinians were involved in any of these incidents?
Or are you saying they were the masterminds behind it all?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 11, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
The Ft. Hood shooter was of Palestinian descent and that incident and the lives lost is part and parcel of the cost of our entirely one-sided support of Israel. So long as we aid and abet the outright and wholesale taking of all of Palestine we will continue to lose service men and women to that cause. You can't have it both ways or expect the Palestinians to simply march into the sea and drown themselves. I wouldn't, I'd pursue an asymmetric response to what basically amounts to an indirect genocide of other words and means.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 11, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
That is a CANCER among us...

You may want to look up the etymology of that phrase when applied to people.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 11, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
It wasnt JEWS who flew planes into the towers. It wasnt a jewish underwear or shoe bomber either. Nor was the guy that went to blow up Manhattan. Nor was the Ft Hood Shooter, or the four Californians who were going to afghanistan to blow up US troops. Nope,, those were ALL muslims. And most trained HERE under the guise of being "friendly immigrants" and citizens..
That is a CANCER among us NOW. And amongst the rest of the world too. And every where they are, its a complete chaotic mess of murder , genocides and attacks.


Dude, maybe if we hadn't overthrown the democratically elected leader of Iran in 1954, supported Saddam Hussein during his worst crimes against his own people, supported all the other mideast kings and dictators like Mubarak, the Saudi and Kuwaiti kings, and supported Israel as they stole ever more Palestinian land, then there were wouldn't be any blowback from Muslims toward the United States. THere wouldn't have been an islamic revolution in Iran for starters.

9-11 was a tiny bloody nose compared with the injustice we've visited on the Muslims first, and we cry and moan about our own nose, but have little regard for the 100,000s of dead after our illegal and unjustified last Iraq invasion that created Millions of refugees.

But of course, we are precious to ourselves and don't give a crap about those others..

I promise you, if we did 1/10th of what we did to the Arab world in the name of oil and power, to Israel, the Israeli would assassinate that president asap. As it is, Israel has sent more spies to the United States to spy on us than the rest of the muslim world combined. Some are still in jail here

peace

Karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 11, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
And amongst the rest of the world too. And every where they are, its a complete chaotic mess of murder , genocides and attacks.


Ron, you can take the past 10 years or the past 100 years, and the United States has killed FAR more people and, in many, many countries, than the Islamic world that you say is a mess of Murder. and despite Islamic Sharia Law, which I detest as well, the United States locks up a greater share of its own citizens per capita than ANY Islamic Tyranny, BY FAR

it's just that we're too great of hypocrites to see the log in our own eye

Peace

Karl
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 11, 2012 - 03:57pm PT
Thugs in Michigan

[Click to View YouTube Video]
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 11, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
Maybe the had reason.


Michigan Right-To-Work Bill Approved By Republican-Dominated House

LANSING, Mich. — The Michigan Legislature gave final approval Tuesday to a bitterly contested right-to-work plan limiting the power of unions, a devastating and once unthinkable defeat for organized labor in a state considered a cradle of the movement.

Unswayed by Democrats' pleas and thousands of protesters inside and outside the state Capitol, the House approved two final bills, sending them on to Republican Gov. Rick Snyder. One dealt with private sector workers, the other with government employees. Both measures cleared the Senate last week.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/11/michigan-right-to-work-bill-passes-house_n_2278021.html


It should be called the Right to Work for Less bill.





philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 11, 2012 - 04:31pm PT
tEEEEEgEEEEEEtEEEEEE thinks that anyone who dares to speak truth to power is a thug.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 11, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
That video was like a supertaco flame fest in real life
WBraun

climber
Dec 11, 2012 - 05:37pm PT
Victimization Mythology Used to Support Civilian Blitz of Gaza

If CNN and Fox News have convinced you that “up is down,” maybe it is time to accept that you are a danger to yourself and others.

Stupid Netanyahu is now intimating that the people of bombed out Gaza are building gas chambers, gassing vans, huge crematoriums and plan to overwhelm Israel, throwing babies onto bayonets and old ladies into crematoriums, all the while cheering the stench of burning human flesh.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/12/10/netanyahu-blowout-obama-and-hamas-gassing-jews-video/

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:38pm PT
Maybe the had reason.


Michigan Right-To-Work Bill Approved By Republican-Dominated House

LANSING, Mich. — The Michigan Legislature gave final approval Tuesday to a bitterly contested right-to-work plan limiting the power of unions, a devastating and once unthinkable defeat for organized labor in a state considered a cradle of the movement.

Unswayed by Democrats' pleas and thousands of protesters inside and outside the state Capitol, the House approved two final bills, sending them on to Republican Gov. Rick Snyder. One dealt with private sector workers, the other with government employees. Both measures cleared the Senate last week.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/11/michigan-right-to-work-bill-passes-house_n_2278021.html


It should be called the Right to Work for Less bill.







Credit: philo

Define poverty. And what do unions do for the welfare of the overall State? They destroy it and bankrupt it!

Maybe lower wages, slightly, are what's needed!

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
Maybe lower wages, slightly, are what's needed!


Starting with the ridiculously bloated CEO compensation.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:43pm PT
Maybe lower wages, slightly, are what's needed!

Man, that's really magnanimous of you volunteering some of your wages to help the cause!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
You miss my point. Pensions and all the other crap are killing competition.

I work in mfg and have no union/pension. I have a 401k that I control. It's optional. "Right to choose".

You union as#@&%es can go f*#k yourselves~ You are dead!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:50pm PT
Translation: "Unions make those of us too stupid not to be in a union, or to organize our workplace, feel really stupid! And makes us post idiotic, emotional rants that would embarrass a 7 year old!"


Um, no. A 7-yr old would say that where is that in the Constitution? If they were educated anywhere other than Michigan, of course...
dirtbag

climber
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:52pm PT
Gotta love how righties demonize working people.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
Where is the Space program in the Constitution?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 11, 2012 - 09:05pm PT
Thanks Werner for that link. The video should be madatory viewing for our ST resident Chicken Hawk Anti-Semites.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 11, 2012 - 09:17pm PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]


In a letter to Majority Leader Harry Reid, 18 Democrat senators and senators-elect have asked for “a delay in the implementation” of the Obamacare medical device tax. Like most of the significant tax increases in Obamacare, the medical device tax is scheduled to take effect on Jan. 1, 2013, conveniently after the 2012 presidential election.

Each of the 18 Democrat signatories voted for or supported Obamacare in the first place. And now they want a sweetheart exemption from one of its most onerous provisions. Even in Washington DC, that shows a lot of gall.

The signatories to the letter are as follows:

Amy Klobuchar (D-Minn.)

Kay Hagan (D-N.C.)

Al Franken (D-Minn.)

Herb Kohl (D-Wis.)

Barbara Mikulski (D-Md.)

John Kerry (D-Mass.)

Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.)

Kirsten Gillibrand (D-N.Y.)

Robert Casey (D-Pa.)

Ben Nelson (D-Neb.)

Debbie Stabenow (D-Mich.)

Jeanne Shaheen (D-N.H.)

Dick Durbin (D-Ill.)

Joseph Lieberman (I-Conn.)

Patty Murray (D-Wash.)

Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.)

Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.)

Joe Donnelly (D-Ind.) – (Voted for Obamacare in the House)

Read more: http://atr.org/dems-delay-obamacare-med-device-tax-a7380#ixzz2EnesZPul
Follow us: @taxreformer on Twitter
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 11, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
Um, no. A 7-yr old would say that where is that in the Constitution

That would be the First Amendment...

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Dec 11, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
give it a try, instead of ranting like a little child.


 asking a bit much, aren't ya?

I can't imagine any repug going to a reputable (anything) to gather information… ever.


Jus' sayin
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 11, 2012 - 09:55pm PT
Why do we need unions today? I work in electronics manufacturing, competeing with Chinese workers and we have no unions. WTF? And I make enough to live pretty comfortably, for now, in Calif.

State/Fed Laws cover workers rights very well. There is no need for unions.

EDIT: Froodish, remember the pertinent word in that phrase. 'Peacefully' assemble. You know, like Tea Partiers, unlike union thugs.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:01pm PT
State/Fed Laws cover workers rights very well.

Yes, thanks to unions.

Without unions, you can be sure those rights would erode.

And btw, unions, like many organizations, do overreach sometimes, but make no mistake there is a war on to completely abolish them.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:02pm PT
Yes, thanks to unions.

Without unions, you can be sure those rights would erode.

Utter bullsh#t, and you know this!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:10pm PT
Bluering...Like Zappa said....Wait till the political winds blow your way....You think because you have a few skills you are exempt from poverty....? Be careful bro...You may not be at the top of the black list but you are just another warm body waiting to be flicked from the back of some corporate dung heap...RJ
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:15pm PT
Michigan teachers can't spell either.

froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
remember the pertinent word in that phrase. 'Peacefully' assemble. You know, like Tea Partiers, unlike union thugs.

What are you saying here Blue? That all union members are thugs? That because there are bad actors who are union members we should deny others their constitutional rights?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
What Chinese companies/products does your company compete with?

In my work (TV production), non-union shoots pay more than union scale because the non-union productions have to offer competitive rates

Does your work pay above union scale so they can compete for the best workers with union shops?


None. But our board-level products are Made In China now. I build TV/Music/Post-Production audio consoles. And yes, our next product line will be fully built in China.

My company will be dead in 10 years if sh#t doesn't change. Unions would make that worse.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:21pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:21pm PT
What can't Michigan teachers spell?
Am I missing your pointlessness?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:21pm PT
TGT..It took me a while to notice the mis-spell....That's hilarious...My ex gf was a union rep for MEA and she could rip you a new one...If you don't behave i'll send her down there and have her re-arrange your playhouse....RJ
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:24pm PT
What are you saying here Blue? That all union members are thugs? That because there are bad actors who are union members we should deny others their constitutional rights?


Yes, pretty much. Much more so than Tea Party types.

And there is nothing in the Constitution about unions or workers rights, despite how you'd like to twist the language therein. Current Federal Law works. As does State law.

Nice try though.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:27pm PT
What can't Michigan teachers spell?
Am I missing your pointlessness?


The Gov.'s name, philo....
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:34pm PT
was it on purpose as a double entendre?


Curious to know where tEEEEEEgEEEEEEEtEEEEEE got that pic. I can't find it anywhere else.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:35pm PT
Has anyone heard about the republigoons being scam artists?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
There is nothing in the Constitution about child seat belt laws or prescription drugs.

dirtbag

climber
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:40pm PT

Utter bullsh#t, and you know this!


Whatever dude. Keep on drinking that Koch koolaid.

What other organizations fought for laws pertaining to worker's rights?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
Only 7% of Detroit 8th graders are proficient readers.

Maybe the union teachers have something to do with it?

http://cnsnews.com/sites/default/files/documents/DETROIT-8th%20GRADE%20READING.pdf
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
Maybe you should switch over to actual audio production, on TV shows or in post, which can't be outsourced

Of course then, you'd have to join the Guild, or work non-union only - which gets old quick, when everyone around you is raking it in on union shoots, getting benefits, pension etc

Well, I'm a Master Technician and head up the repairs, which can't yet be outsourced. But my production bros are gonna get screwed.

Nice to hear you have a cushy union gig! I hope it gets yanked from you and you have to compete in a real market of skills. May the best man win.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:46pm PT
Bitter white guy alert! Bitter white guy alert!

Whoop!

Whoop!

Whoop!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
Yeah, I hope you lose your job too.


I was just calling for fair competition in the free market, without union bullshit and rules.

I compete in that market, as do so many other competent people.

Did you know I could not enter a San Francisco studio to do work until a union rep showed up, just to oversee and watch? Do you know how much of my time that wasted? And he didn't even watch me work!!!

F*#ked up, bra!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:59pm PT
And there is nothing in the Constitution about unions or workers rights, despite how you'd like to twist the language therein. Current Federal Law works. As does State law.

You know, there's nothing about having political parties in the constitution and many of the founding fathers were against them

I'm thinking they were right

peace

karl
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 11, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
You know, there's nothing about having political parties in the constitution and many of the founding fathers were against them

I'm thinking they were right

peace

karl


Word, my commie brother. Word.

In fact, they warned against a 2 party system if I'm not mistaken...

Sometimes Karl is spot-on.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Dec 11, 2012 - 11:13pm PT
TGT...It aint the teachers....Maybe it has to do with the fact that the parents don't give a crap about education or maybe the parents have to work 3 jobs to make ends meet and don't have time to mentor their kids...Attacking the teachers is just a Koch brothers rue to pay teachers minimum wage so the stinkin rich can squirrel a few more dollars away...But maybe you are part of the 2%...?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 11, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
Unions are democracy for workers, and logical extensions of guaranteed 1st amendment rights

Again, try educating yourself - Germany's auto manufacturing industry is fully unionized, and thriving


http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickallen/2011/12/21/germany-builds-twice-as-many-cars-as-the-u-s-while-paying-its-auto-workers-twice-as-much/

http://www.remappingdebate.org/article/tale-two-systems


Or, accept that the only way to survive is to lower your standards - your call.


Apples unt Oranges. Germany operates differently than the US. It is mostly Socialist. Also, they have almost zero defense budgets because we defend them.

Why not compare us to China? They're doing good, right?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Dec 11, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
TGT..I might add that the scandinavian countries are doing a better job of educating their children than the US is...Maybe it has to do with being progressive socialist countries that provide national healthcare for their citizens....I know this goes against what Fox news tells you to think...
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 11, 2012 - 11:30pm PT


Make no mistake there is a war against public education in America. It is fueled by corporate interests and perpetrated by conservative republicans.
Squeeze the life out of the education budget and blame the teachers.
The goal is scuttle liberal arts education and to further the ascendancy of private faith based or military schools.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 12, 2012 - 01:46am PT
What are you saying here Blue? That all union members are thugs? That because there are bad actors who are union members we should deny others their constitutional rights?


Yes, pretty much.

Wow. Just wow.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 12, 2012 - 08:11am PT
Fascism is alive and well.
can't say

Social climber
Pasadena CA
Dec 12, 2012 - 11:30am PT
Bluering: "In fact, they warned against a 2 party system if I'm not mistaken."

BZZT you are mistaken. What we have today was a byproduct of having a presidential vs parliamentary form of govt. Madison laid it out well in the Federalist Papers #10 when he argued why a country as large as ours, with so many different factions, required a 2 party system.

If you think it's bad now, can you imagine if we had 5, 10, heck, a herd of parties as dysfunctional as our 2 parties are today? ((((SHUDDERS))))
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 12, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
Ron, Ron, Ron - dude, you have a tenuous and higly emotional relationship with 'facts'. Deficits? Don't panic dude. Post WWII deficit spending is what made America great. It finally took Clinton to put us into the black. And please note it was W who really pounded deficits back into the dirt by fighting unfunded wars, endless corporate handouts, and of course big gifts to the rich - republican policies are exactly why we're running the deficit we are, but that to shall pass.

So, really dude, as the man said: "Keep your nerve Ron, 'cause I'm gonna keep mine."


P.S. While presidents can propose deficit cutting, only congress can actually do it. So when the republican-controlled House deliberately conspires to keep deficits high for four years as a political strategy for the next election, it's hardly Obama's fault. The public just demonstrated they understand that which is why republicans are going to be the ones on the bottom for the landing if we do go off their cliff.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 12, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
P.S. While presidents can propose deficit cutting, only congress can actually do it. So when the republican-controlled House deliberately conspires to keep deficits high for four years as a political strategy for the next election, it's hardly Obama's fault. The public just demonstrated they understand that which is why republicans are going to be the ones on the bottom for the landing if we do go off their cliff.

A few of the many problems with that argument:

1. The Republicans controlled the House for only the last two years. During the first two years of Obama's presidency, and for two years before that, the Nancy Pelosi gang controlled the House;

2. The President's budget was rejected unanimously in both the House and Senate;

3. The Democrats in the Senate have insured that no budget was been passed there for over three years.

4. The real problem is that the American people have demonstrated that they don't want to do anything that really brings down the deficit. They only support taxing "the rich" (i.e., don't tax me, tax someone else), they don't support cutting spending anywhere, they don't support entitlement reform, and they want everything to remain the same. The fact that this has as much chance of happening as King Canute's command to the waves testifies quite eloquently about the state of general economic understanding both of the public, and of the media from which we hear our news.

John
John M

climber
Dec 12, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
so he just makes it up as he goes along then, because he DID PROMISE to cut our deficit in half his first term.

You do understand that there is a difference between budget deficit and national debt? Don't you?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 12, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
4. The real problem is that the American people have demonstrated that they don't want to do anything that really brings down the deficit. They only support taxing "the rich" (i.e., don't tax me, tax someone else), they don't support cutting spending anywhere, they don't support entitlement reform, and they want everything to remain the same. The fact that this has as much chance of happening as King Canute's command to the waves testifies quite eloquently about the state of general economic understanding both of the public, and of the media from which we hear our news.

Your Buckley-esque lament is nothing more than a more eloquent, coded version of "free stuff". Not really a reality and, hey, the deficits are undeniably a direct result of republican military adventurism, tax breaks to the wealth, and successive cuts in the corporate tax rate. It ain't rocket science. And the dem senate rejected house budgets because they were explicitly designed, by republicans, to be rejected.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 12, 2012 - 04:22pm PT
All tied to this global demon that's been created and put upon us.

It's a demon entirely of our own making - no one has put it upon us. And is that how you feel when you don't get up a pitch? You just have to get over this simplistic language, us vs. them, good/evil, b&w crap. Sure, the real world is complex and nuanced, but I have faith in your ability to eventually get a grip on it.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 12, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
The government didn't do that - corporations did that. Corporations with corporate boards and management run overwhelmingly by republicans. They sold your America down the tube, the middle class with it, and raped pension fund after pension fund for good measure along the way. And lockstep at their side every step of the way has been one chickhawk republican administration after another.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 12, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
I find well-known (CNBC) Stock Pundit, Jim Cramer's frustration with Congress-people during his visit to DC this week to be------frustrating.


http://money.msn.com/top-stocks/post.aspx?post=22e25d24-06f8-4afc-92c6-a1208c5dd1da

The lack of sincerity in Washington, D.C., was palpable Tuesday. Over and over, I could not get a single elected official I spoke with, neither Republican nor Democrat, to give me even one idea for cutting spending right now. Not one.

I made tons of suggestions that could be implemented Wednesday.

Why do we have huge military bases in Japan and Europe? These are just leftovers from another era. There are whole defense projects that not even the Defense Department wants.

How about farm subsidies? Ethanol subsidies? Nope.

How about Medicare negotiating with drug companies? Nope. I heard from one poll that the drug companies might move elsewhere. Where? We are the only country that lets them gouge us. I heard that the drug companies wouldn't feel compelled to spend money to develop new drugs. I wanted to scream: Did you ever hear about patent cliffs?

Outrageous.

The Republicans were absolutely no better than the Democrats. In fact, they were worse. When I stipulated that I am not interested in talking about raising revenues because they say over and over that the issue is spending, they still talked about raising revenues. When I insisted that they talk about what they say they insisted on talking about, they wouldn't. They simply wouldn't.



I could never get away with that level of hypocrisy.

Ever.

Infuriating.

•Mad Money recap: CEOs better than congressmen
I came away thinking that there is nothing the Republicans won't do to be sure that the 2% don't pay more, including throw people out of work and make everyone else pay, which is what's going to happen if they don't compromise.


And the president? He has no serious plan to cut spending either -- but at least he is willing to give something that helps balance the budget (read on TheStreet).

I am going to repeat this so it is really clear: NO Republican offered me anything to cut spending in the near-term. Not one.

If you are serious about spending cuts, you have to be able to offer one.



My conclusion: Republicans aren't any more serious than Democrats are, but at least the Democrats are asking someone to help solve the deficit, the cohort that got the big break on taxes when things weren't so hot.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 12, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]


Union Thugs Demolish Clint Tarver’s Iconic Lansing,Michigan Hot Dog Cart [Photo-Donation Link] Update: Thugs Yelled “N*gger, Uncle Tom” Update 5: Audio: Clint Confirms The Slurs On The Dana Loesch Show


Great work by your thugs there!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 12, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Clint describes the attack by white union racist thugs.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 13, 2012 - 10:47am PT
"so he just makes it up as he goes along then, because he DID PROMISE to cut out deficit in half his first term.."

Yeah he must be the dumbest Presidont evah eh?
I mean he probably thought the other side of the aisle would pitch in considering the dire need of the Nation at the time..
What with the calamity Spurious George left behind and the lunacy of the McShame / Phalin ticket it was reasonable to expect the RePuBuloids to actually do something to help the Nation. Anything.
Their brilliant four year agenda was to obstruct the Kenyan Muslim's efforts at every turn. So how'd that work out for them? How'd it work out for you Rong? I wonder how much better We as a Nation would be right now if the right wing would have helped the left wing keep the body in flight.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 13, 2012 - 12:54pm PT
Your Buckley-esque lament is nothing more than a more eloquent, coded version of "free stuff". Not really a reality and, hey, the deficits are undeniably a direct result of republican military adventurism, tax breaks to the wealth, and successive cuts in the corporate tax rate. It ain't rocket science. And the dem senate rejected house budgets because they were explicitly designed, by republicans, to be rejected.


Exactly, I'm absolutely flabbergasted that with this "Fiscal Crisis" that so few are talking about cutting defense spending, which has DOUBLED since 2001 (and was too high in 2001)

Just like the soviet union did, we're KILLING ourselves spending too much on what we TOTALLY DO NOT NEED and at the same time discussing cutting our seniors and poor. Who just spend all their money and stimulate the economy.

The Rich do NOT spend all their money and sock it away overseas and send jobs overseas as well but supposedly they can't afford a few percentage points more taxes but the seniors can afford a lot more than that in cuts????

Screw people with those priorities. Where is your mind and heart?

PEace

Karl
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 13, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
The mind has no blood flow for the heart has ceased.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 13, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
Reducing or streamlining the military spending, IN ANY WAY, would be a huge step in solving some of our money problems.

Need I remind anyone AGAIN, what Dwight D. Eisenhower warned us about the military industrial complex? Exactly how much money do they have and how much power do these corporations have over our national policy?



Please watch it, my fellow supertopians. It's only 2:30 out of your posting life. I'm a strong supporter of the military, being a military man myself, but not limitless unending money, power and influence for these people.
Civilian control of the military is vitally important. I'd say that Dwight Eisenhower knew more about the subject than any of us, wouldn't you?
"We must not fail to grasp its GRAVE implications."

"The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist."
[Click to View YouTube Video]



Ron, for an "independent" you sure do take out an unbalanced portion of your displeasure on democrats.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 13, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
Not BS at all Ron.

Just take a look at the weight of your posts on a balance scale over the last couple years. None of us are that blind.

Apparently you've forgotten the big majority that repubs have in congress?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 13, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
He forgets everything that has already happened.
But remembers all that has not yet occurred.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 13, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
See how you are Rong?
Or is that see how wrong you are?
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
Dec 13, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
Rock climbing
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 13, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
uhhmmmm whos been in charge the last couple of years ?? And WHY would ANYONE harp about BUSH in regards to the defense budget for 2013 is simply beyond me.


The NDAA and the defense budget are beyond Dem or GOP polarities. They belong to the elite power and money that rule both parties

PEace

Karl
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 13, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
And WHY would ANYONE harp about BUSH in regards to the defense budget for 2013 is simply beyond me.


Who said that? I certainly didn't. But there are certainly things which are BEYOND all of us on most levels. I'm saying that it's the giant sacred cow 800 pound gorilla that none in the government dare speak against. Not Obama, not Bush, not Boehner, not Pelosi, none of them are willing to squeek a little about it.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 13, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
Neither, I fear, is the operectumy that Rong got.



An operectumy is the connection of your optic nerve to your rectum giving you a shitty outlook on life. Quite prevalent among adherents of right wing media.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 13, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
The NDAA act of 2013 is ALL his plans

Rong, study up on how laws are created. Keep in mind, Repubs control the house.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 13, 2012 - 01:52pm PT
Your Buckley-esque lament is nothing more than a more eloquent, coded version of "free stuff". Not really a reality and, hey, the deficits are undeniably a direct result of republican military adventurism, tax breaks to the wealth, and successive cuts in the corporate tax rate. It ain't rocket science. And the dem senate rejected house budgets because they were explicitly designed, by republicans, to be rejected.

Joe, I based that on the results of a poll published in yesterday's Fresno Bee, a liberal paper. "Soaking the rich" would take care of, at most, a few days of deficit spending. There is no public support, according to the poll, for any other action that would reduce the deficit, either in the form of spending cuts or revenue increases. That's reality.

I do agree that Republican spending on middle east wars and on an under-funded prescription drug benefit has much to do with the current spending binge, but it is hardly all, or even most, of the problem. And I agree with survival that streamlining the military and reducing military involvement would decrease our budget woes, but the biggest spending issues remain Medicare, Social Security and the increased costs inherent in the ACA. The actuarial deficit from these, particularly the medical and pharmaceutical costs, swamps all military spending.

Despite this fiscal reality, the public does not support means testing for Social Security or Medicare benefits, nor does it support cuts in benefits, increases in the eligibility age or higher levies on income. Without some combination of these, both Medicare and Social Security run out of money before my life expectancy ends. What are we supposed to do?

I suspect disbelief in the actuarial insolvency of the programs explains much of this attitude, and for that disbelief, I blame the politicians of both parties somewhat, and the media quite a bit. Then there's the "It's not part of the general federal budget, so it doesn't count" argument, as if only general budgeted items affect governmental cash flow.

In summary, if I'm criticizing a perceived attitude that we have allowed us to be addicted to "free stuff," I have rather a great deal of empirical and polling evidence on my side. If we only do what is popular, we won't tackle the problem, and it will prove onerous and intractable soon. For that reason, if you and Karl see this as complaining about "free stuff," I don't apologize. I don't make these observations as a rationalization for why the Democrats did well in the last election. I make this observation because we're heading toward an iceberg with a shortage of lifeboats, and most of the people around me are only concerned about what's on the menu for tomorrow morning's breakfast.

John

Edit: If the Republican House-passed budgets were designed to be rejected, what conclusion should we make of Obama's budgets, that garnered zero votes in both the House and Senate?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 13, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
Just not true John

The amount of deficit created by the Bush tax cuts was HUGE (this includes tax cuts for all, not just the rich and the cuts in Capital gains, estate, and dividend taxes) We got along fine for decades before these cuts, which were supposed to be temporary and all of a sudden we're told they are essential forever? BS!

and those two wars cost TRILLIONS, and the military was bloated before that!

Cut the military and return to Clinton era tax levels and some simple efficiencies in entitlements (like allowing the government to negotiate prescription drug prices) and we're good

This is all about the GOP creating a public perception that taxes are unacceptable and wanting to kill the government through starvation

Peace

Karl
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 13, 2012 - 02:51pm PT
Cut the military and return to Clinton era tax levels and some simple efficiencies in entitlements (like allowing the government to negotiate prescription drug prices) and we're good

While we agree that the 2001 tax cuts affected far more than the highest bracket, we disagree otherwise. The Clinton-era tax levels won't yield Clinton-era revenue without a Clinton-era dot.com bubble equivalent.

Medicare and Social Security need much, much more than just "some simple efficiencies in entitlements" to obtain actuarial solvency. Reducing payments to providers will help the bottom line in the short run, but it will affect the quantity and quality of goods and services provided, which is why the ever-helpful AARP fights it so. We need more than tweaks, and we need much more than just "the rich" participating in the changes we need to solve those problems.

I realize most American adults disagree with this assessment, but when it comes to disproving it, all I hear are unsubstantiated claims. The actuarial insolvency is real -- at least that's what the Trustees of Medicare and Social Security say. The magnitude of the deficit is enormous, and the consequences when interest rates rise will be devastating. I don't know what it takes to convince us that this is reality, but it would sure help if the media would give us straight talk about the problems and solutions, rather than distortions concentrating on which party can work current events to its political advantage.

It would help if the parties did that too, but politicians will act in their perceived self-interest, so I don't hold out much hope there. The news-consuming public, however, should demand better from those that provide us with what they purport to be news.

John
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 13, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
Social Security has tons of money. The government has just been borrowing from it and needs to pay it back. We've been sold this myth by the GOP that taxes would kill the economy but taxes have been much higher during most of modern US history when we had much of our best growth. Now the GOP tells us corporate taxes are too high but many profitable fortune 500 companies pay none. And megamillionaire Mit Romny had to TRY order to pay 14% just so he didn't look bad. We can get a lot more from these scum

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/aug/08/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20100808

The trustees indicated that the program has made it through the worst economic downturn in its life span essentially unscathed. In fact, by at least one measure it's fiscally stronger than a year ago: Its projected actuarial deficit over the next 75 years (a measurement required by law) is smaller now than a year ago.

The old age and disability trust funds, which hold the system's surplus, grew in 2009 by $122 billion, to $2.5 trillion. The program paid out $675 billion to 53 million beneficiaries — men, women and children — with administrative costs of 0.9% of expenditures. For all you privatization advocates out there, you'd be lucky to find a retirement and insurance plan of this complexity with an administrative fee less than five or 10 times that ratio.

This year and next, the program's costs will exceed its take from the payroll tax and income tax on benefits. That's an artifact of the recession, and it's expected to reverse from 2012 through 2014. The difference is covered by the program's other income source — interest on the Treasury bonds in the Social Security trust fund.

That brings us back to this supposed $41-billion "shortfall," which exists only if you decide not to count interest due of about $118 billion.

And that, in turn, leads us to the convoluted subject of the trust fund, which for some two decades has been the prime target of the crowd trying to bamboozle Americans into thinking Social Security is insolvent, bankrupt, broke — pick any term you wish, because they're all wrong. The trust fund is the mechanism by which baby boomers have pre-funded their own (OK, our own) retirements. When tax receipts fall short, its bonds are redeemed by the government to cover the gap.

Despite what Social Security's enemies love to claim, the trust fund is not a myth, it's not mere paper. It's real money, and it represents the savings of every worker paying into the system today. So I'm going to train a microscope on it.

What trips up many people about the trust fund is the notion that redeeming the bonds in the fund to produce cash for Social Security is the equivalent of "the government" paying money to "the government." Superficially, this resembles transferring a dollar from your brown pants to your gray pants — you're no more or less flush than you were before changing pants.

But that assumes every one of us contributes equally to "the government," and by equal methods — you, me and the chairman of Goldman Sachs.

The truth is that there are two separate tax programs at work here — the payroll tax and the income tax — and they affect Americans in different ways. The first pays for Social Security and the second for the rest of the federal budget.

Most Americans pay more payroll tax than income tax. Not until you pull in $200,000 or more, which puts you among roughly the top 5% of income-earners, are you likely to pay more in income tax than payroll tax. One reason is that the income taxed for Social Security is capped — this year, at $106,800. (My payroll and income tax figures come from the Brookings Institution, and the income distribution statistics come from the U.S. Census Bureau.)

Since 1983, the money from all payroll taxpayers has been building up the Social Security surplus, swelling the trust fund. What's happened to the money? It's been borrowed by the federal government and spent on federal programs — housing, stimulus, war and a big income tax cut for the richest Americans, enacted under President George W. Bush in 2001.

In other words, money from the taxpayers at the lower end of the income scale has been spent to help out those at the higher end. That transfer — that loan, to characterize it accurately — is represented by the Treasury bonds held by the trust fund.

The interest on those bonds, and the eventual redemption of the principal, should have to be paid for by income taxpayers, who reaped the direct benefits from borrowing the money.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 13, 2012 - 03:11pm PT
In case my last post got buried on the last page, there's also this

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/04/27/1086996/-Busting-Myths-about-the-2012-Social-Security-and-Medicare-Trustees-Report#

No doubt you’ve already seen the screaming headlines promising the immediate bankruptcy of Social Security and Medicare…it’s an annual Washington tradition tied to the release of the Social Security and Medicare Trustees report. Unfortunately, this tradition seldom stems from factual reporting of what’s actually in the trustees report. This year is no exception.

To help you sort fact from fiction about the true health of Social Security and Medicare, here is our President/CEO Max Richtman’s reaction to the Trustees’ projections and some data you likely won’t see reported in this week’s news coverage:

“Projections in the 2012 Trustees Reports come as no surprise to anyone who understands how Social Security and Medicare work. The trust fund solvency date for Social Security has seen fluctuations many times in recent decades, from a depletion date as distant as 2048 in the 1988 report to as soon as 2029 in the 1994 and 1997 reports. This year’s report is well within that range. Contrary to the crisis myths perpetuated by fiscal conservatives and many in the media, the prevailing facts show once again that Social Security remains among the nation’s most successful and stable programs. The Trustees report there is now $2.7 trillion in the Social Security trust fund, which is $69 billion more than last year, and continues to grow. Payroll contributions and interest will fully cover benefits for decades to come.” Max Richtman, NCPSSM President/CEO

**In the 2012 Trustees report:

-Trustees project Social Security will be able to pay full benefits until the year 2033. After that, Social Security will have sufficient revenue to pay about 75% of benefits.

-Social Security is still well funded. In 2012, with the economy showing slow signs of recovery, Social Security’s total income still exceeded its expenses by over $57 billion. In fact, the Trustees estimate that total annual income is expected to exceed program obligations until 2020.

-Beneficiaries will likely see a Cost of Living Allowance increase of 1.8% in 2013.
The 2012 Trustees report also shows Medicare’s Trust Fund solvency projection remains unchanged at 2024. This reflects the success that health care reform has had in improving Medicare’s solvency. If long-term solvency for Medicare is truly Congress’ goal, then repealing health care reform is not an option as it would set back that progress immeasurably.

The 2012 Trustees report also shows Medicare’s Trust Fund solvency projection remains unchanged at 2024. This reflects the success that health care reform has had in improving Medicare’s solvency. If long-term solvency for Medicare is truly Congress’ goal, then repealing health care reform is not an option as it would set back that progress immeasurably.**

“The challenges facing Medicare are the same that we see in the broader health care system…the high cost of health care in America. Thanks to health care reform, Medicare will save $200 billion by 2016, but even those savings would be lost if opponents have their way and the Affordable Care Act is repealed. We must allow reform to be fully implemented in order to realize the projected savings.” Max Richtman
The National Committee believes that Congress can also improve the long-term outlook for Social Security with modest and manageable changes in revenue without enacting harmful benefit cuts for current or future retirees. Recent polling has shown that a majority of Americans support lifting the payroll tax cap to ensure Americans contribute at all income levels.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 13, 2012 - 04:06pm PT
So what do you do in 2033 when it can only pay 75% of promised benefits? That's only 21 years away, which doesn't seem very far given that I'm almost 40 years past my college graduation. If I send my creditors 75% of what I owe, it won't turn out too well for me.

I never said Social Security or Medicare was imminently insolvent. What I say, and to my knowledge has not been contradicted, is that we can fix the actuarial insolvency now without horribly painful changes. Fixing it later is an entirely different matter.

Please note, though, Karl, that the Daily Kos article doesn't really address Medicare, which is the first, and much larger, part of the entitlement actuarial insolvency problem. It proposes paying less to providers and suppliers (the reference to the ACA), but doesn't address how much less it would really have to pay to be solvent.

John

Edit:

The article makes it sound like the discussion is largely from the Trustees' report. It is, in fact, from NCPSSM, whose "official" dailykos profile is below:

Real Name: NCPSSM

Location: Washington, DC, 22003

Occupation: Advocacy Organization [emphasis added]

Groups: Social Security Defenders, Preserve Social Security & Medicare
Eric Beck

Sport climber
Bishop, California
Dec 13, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
For me, the cliff discussion has taken on an air of profound unreality with the total lack of mention of the F35 program and its projected $1 Trillion cost.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/f-35-fighter-more-dangerous-to-governments-than-any-potential-enemy/article6299878/

An excerpt:
But Canada’s ongoing F-35 drama is but the tip of the F-35 iceberg. The United States still plans to purchase 2,443 of the aircraft at a total cost (purchase and operations) of well over a trillion dollars. But virtually all of the nations that have signed on to the F-35 consortium are seriously questioning their commitment to the jet. And there is furious debate and much unhappiness in Washington over the F-35’s costs and production delays.

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II
But in 2011, it was revealed that only 50% of the eight million lines of code had actually been written and that it would take another six years and 110 additional software engineers in order to complete the software for this new schedule.[72] The total estimated lines of code for the entire program (onboard and offboard) had grown from 15 million lines to 24 million lines by 2012
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 13, 2012 - 04:16pm PT
You see John, that Trillion for the lame useless fighter than even generals from the military don't say they want would cover a great deal toward medicare and social security. Just a little sacrifice of our imperialism is needed, not painful horrible costs

The military industrial complex and their paid political stooges have foisted this false choice on us. We should have war on them

not to mention the 700 billion we're planning to spend on Nukes we don't need during the next 10 years. To hell with people who value being able to blow up the world 10x instead of 5x over at the expense of the old and poor

Peace


Karl

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/12/opinion/gard-johns-military-spending/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

John M

climber
Dec 13, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
I never said Social Security or Medicare was imminently insolvent. What I say, and to my knowledge has not been contradicted, is that we can fix the actuarial insolvency now without horribly painful changes. Fixing it later is an entirely different matter.

Agreed.. but how

The problem as I see it is that a number of powerful people in the GOP wanted to privatize social security and others it appear to me want to do away with it entirely. So what do we do? I don't' really see the Dems coming up with good answers either. ( except maybe to reduce the military, which I agree with but don't' want a fast draw down. )

By the way.. I deleted the post about what you said about TGT. I still think that it is true. I wish that you would take your blinders off. If I posted that "your" side of the argument only posted nasty things and Dr. F. only posted reasonable arguments, you would cringe. I feel the same way about TGT. I see more hateful things come out of him then reasonable arguments.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 13, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
Social Security has tons of money. The government has just been borrowing from it and needs to pay it back.

Exactly, Karl. When you place money at interest, you are loaning it to the party paying interest. Whether we loaned it to the government (usually considered the safest investment) or to private parties, we're still loaning it. Otherwise, we're just putting it under the mattress, which is almost always a poor investment.

The problem comes because the government does need to pay it back. When it does, it affects the cash flow negatively. According to the (self-interested) NCPSSM report you quoted, we will need to start doing this for Social Security in about eight years, and big time for Medicare perhaps sooner. There is only one source for the payment of those funds: federal revenues.

Thus, when NCPSSM says Social Security has "plenty of money," what they really mean is that they can appropriate a larger and larger share of federal revenues starting in 2020. Where is that going to come from.

For the life of me, I can't see how NCPSSM, AARP, and the other insolvency deniers can purport to want to preserve Social Security and Medicare by denying financial facts, or how otherwise responsible (but, apparently, financially ignorant) news organizations let them get away with it. I'm not trying to destroy these programs, I'm trying to save them, not only now, but in the future. NCPSSM and AARP don't give a rip about the future. They want it unchanged now, and let the problems get fixed when they're all dead.

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 13, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
Agreed.. but how

My preferred way would be to gradually raise eligibility ages to reflect current demographic reality, rather than 1930's demographic reality.

I think this would be less contractionary (if it is contractionary at all) than raising payroll taxes, and would be more in keeping with the original intent of the programs, namely to provide for necessities for people after they can no longer work.

I don't like means testing, particularly for Social Security, because of the moral hazard issue Dave Kos has so accurately described on the thread involving the Republicans. Nonetheless, if some means testing is necessary to reach a political compromise that actually gets passed, I'd rather have that than a stalemate. Politics is (or at least should be), after all, the art of the possible. leaving the current system unchanged simply guarantees the demise of both programs.

As a suggested bumper sticker of one of my friends says, "Warning: dates on calendar are closer than they appear."

John

Edit: Eric and Karl, I agree that there's plenty of platinum-plated military expense that we can't afford, not the least of which is where we send our troops. That isn't the only conservative favorite I would reduce substantially. In my opinion, our drug laws -- with their ridiculously long sentences (and ridiculously longs sentences generally) are a luxury we can't afford, and are actually counter-productive.

I could go on, but it's increasingly clear that a majority of Americans -- of all political persuasions -- prefer the buy now, pay later (preferably after I'm dead) plan to confronting our financial issues realistically.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 13, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
Edit: Eric and Karl, I agree that there's plenty of platinum-plated military expense that we can't afford, not the least of which is where we send our troops. That isn't the only conservative favorite I would reduce substantially. In my opinion, our drug laws -- with their ridiculously long sentences (and ridiculously longs sentences generally) are a luxury we can't afford, and are actually counter-productive.

Agreed, and when we consider REAL cuts to the military and the prison industrial complex, it's enough to save medicare and social security if we go back to Clinton era taxes

Easy!

But our government is purchased by them both

Peace

Karl
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 13, 2012 - 08:44pm PT
John: ... but the biggest spending issues remain Medicare, Social Security and the increased costs inherent in the ACA.

John, hey, that (edit: fourth) spike in the deficit chart I posted above didn't come from any of those things. And those things, minus ACA, were all in play during Clinton era surpluses. It just doesn't wash or compute in any way.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 13, 2012 - 08:46pm PT
Yet another example of lefty racism.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 13, 2012 - 10:04pm PT
My preferred way would be to gradually raise eligibility ages to reflect current demographic reality, rather than 1930's demographic reality.

This is a really bad idea. The folks who will need to rely upon Social Security the most (the bottom income quintiles) have not made much in the way of life expectancy gains in the last 40 years.

A modest raising of the income contribution cap would probably handle things just fine and not leave the most vulnerable with a gap between the age at which they can no longer effectively work and when they are eligible for SS.

Social Security funding is a easily solved issue and it's disingenuous to throw it into the same mix as Medicare.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 13, 2012 - 10:08pm PT
And then there is the average Republican: white, male, bigoted.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Dec 13, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
We went over the fiscal cliff when Junior suckered us into 2 wars , gave the well off a tax cut that they didn't need , and handed the bill to the middle class...here's to looking back up at the top of the cliff at the moron republican saboteurs who insist on stealing the America Dream...Go big R ! ...RJ
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 19, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
I like how TGT's video was removed because of youtubes policy against "Spam, Scams and commercially deceptive content."
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 19, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
Ron, have you read the new report just released by the independent Accountability Review Board?

Now, will you please stop posting nonsense about the Benghazi attack? Like, it's no conspiracy, OK?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2012 - 10:36am PT
Speaking of amendments, according to this journalist, looks like the unwarranted infinite detention (ie, lock you up with no trial) may be next before they work on screwing up the 2nd (gun ownership).

"What everyone must understand is that American politics doesn't work the way you'd think it would. Most people presume that government officials would never willfully withhold penicillin from men with syphilis just to see what would happen if the disease went untreated. It seems unlikely that officers would coerce enlisted men into exposing themselves to debilitating nerve gas. Few expected that President Obama would preside over the persecution of an NSA whistle-blower, or presume the guilt of all military-aged males killed by U.S. drone strikes. But it all happened.

Really thinking about all that may make it easier to believe what I'm about to tell you.

It may seem like imprisoning an American citizen without charges or trial transgresses against the United States Constitution and basic norms of Western justice dating back to the Magna Carta.

It may seem like reiterating the right to due process contained in the 5th Amendment would be uncontroversial.

It may seem like a United States senator would be widely ridiculed for suggesting that American citizens can be imprisoned indefinitely without chargers or trial, and that if numerous U.S. senators took that position, the press would treat the issue with at least as much urgency as "the fiscal cliff" or the possibility of a new assault weapons bill or likely nominees for Cabinet posts.

It may seem like the American citizens who vocally fret about the importance of adhering to the text of the Constitution would object as loudly as anyone to the prospect of indefinite detention.

But it isn't so.

The casual news consumer cannot rely on those seemingly reasonable heuristics to signal that very old norms are giving way, that important protections are being undermined, perhaps decisively.

We've lost the courage of our convictions -- we're that scared of terrorism (or of seeming soft on it).

News junkies likely know that I'm alluding to a specific law that has passed both the Senate and the House, and is presently in a conference committee, where lawmakers reconcile the two versions. Observers once worried that the law would permit the indefinite detention of American citizens, or at least force them to rely on uncertain court challenges if unjustly imprisoned. In response, Senator Dianne Feinstein tried to allay these concerns with an amendment:

An authorization to use military force, a declaration of war, or any similar authority shall not authorize the detention without charge or trial of a citizen or lawful permanent resident of the United States apprehended in the United States, unless an Act of Congress expressly authorizes such detention.

You'd think the part about American citizens being protected from indefinite detention would be uncontroversial. It wasn't. But the amendment did manage to pass in the United States Senate.

Afterward everyone forgot about it pretty quickly. But not Charlie Savage. He's a journalist at The New York Times. If every journalist were more like him the United States government would be far less able to radically expand the president's unchecked authority without many people noticing.

Here is his scoop:

Lawmakers charged with merging the House and Senate versions of the National Defense Authorization Act decided on Tuesday to drop a provision that would have explicitly barred the military from holding American citizens and permanent residents in indefinite detention without trial as terrorism suspects, according to Congressional staff members familiar with the negotiations.

Says Adam Serwer, another journalist who treats these issues with the urgency that they deserve:

Of the four main negotiators on the defense bill, only one of the Democrats, Rep. Adam Smith (D-Wash.), opposes domestic indefinite detention of Americans. The Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Senator Carl Levin (D-Mich.), believes detaining Americans without charge or trial is constitutional, and only voted for the Feinstein amendment because he and some of his Republican colleagues in the Senate convinced themselves through a convoluted legal rationale that Feinstein's proposal didn't actually ban the practice. Both of the main Republican negotiators, House Armed Services Committee Chairman Howard "Buck" McKeon (R-Calif) and Senator John McCain (R-Ariz) believe it's constitutional to lock up American citizens suspected of terrorism without ever proving they're guilty.

There is a complication, as he notes: Civil liberties groups "aren't shedding any tears over the demise of the Feinstein-Lee amendment," because they objected to the fact that it protected only U.S. citizens and permanent residents, rather than all persons present in the United States. While I respect that principled stand, the more important thing is that this outcome puts us all at greater risk of having a core liberty violated, and that Senators McCain, Levin, and many other legislators suffer no consequences for failing to protect and defend the United States Constitution.

As Serwer puts it, "The demise of the Feinstein-Lee proposal doesn't necessarily mean that Americans suspected of terrorism in the US can be locked up forever without a trial. But it ensures that the next time a president tries to lock up an American citizen without trial -- as President George W. Bush previously tried -- it will be left up to the courts to decide whether or not it's legal."

Don't let the dearth of attention fool you -- this is a scandal. Congress has turned its back on safeguarding a core Constitutional protection and a centuries old requirement of Western justice.

Rage, rage against the dying of the 5th."

Story here: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/12/scandal-alert-congress-is-quietly-abandoning-the-5th-amendment/266498/
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 21, 2012 - 10:55am PT
Such a shameful and sad story above on indefinite detention of citizens. Americans and their politicians have become such cowards to permit such an evil perversion of the heart of the constitution. Obama and Bush are both responsible and worthy of disrespect over this

Even Rome in the time of Christ had greater protections for its citizens and they threw Christians to Lions

Peace

Karl
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
It's OBOMERS fault. If he hadn't imposed sanctions, they would be able to have first class, safe, uranium enrichment sites.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 18, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
like the article in yesterday's Sunday NYTimes, "Can the Republicans Be Saved From Obsolescence?"
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/magazine/can-the-republicans-be-saved-from-obsolescence.html
ROBERT DRAPER

many good observations and wonderful lines in that one... from the mouths of the young faction of the G.O.P....

but this one might be pertinent to this discussion, and some food for thought about the next couple of decades... taking from the Democrat's history...

“It ought to concern people that the most Republican part of the electorate under Ronald Reagan were 18-to-29-year-olds. And today, people I know who are under 40 are embarrassed to say they’re Republicans. They’re embarrassed! They get harassed for it, the same way we used to give liberals a hard time.”

what goes around, comes around
John M

climber
Feb 18, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
Ron.. I doubt Ed's post was strictly about who is better. Its about .."what goes around comes around". It doesn't matter if its a liberal doing it or a conservative. If you treat the other side with disrespect, you can expect it will eventually come back to bite you. Right now the GOP is reaping the rewards or belittling the liberals for decades. I believe that there is a lesson in that and the liberals would be wise to not belittle the needs of the conservatives, or the pendulum will swing back the other way. Balance is what is needed.

I personally find it hard to do because after having been derided as a dirty little hippie for so long, I can barely stomach many conservatives. So I have to work hard to be respectful. And it seems like the conservatives still haven't learned the lessons of being disrespectful. They are still predominately incredibly arrogant.
John M

climber
Feb 18, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
You liberals just want free stuff.

Damn Straight!. LOL

...

good post Bruce..
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Mar 27, 2013 - 07:08pm PT
Where's my free stuff? sh#t I'm happy with 20% off most times.

Ron, that does seem unjustifiable. is that spelt right?
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Mar 27, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
[youtube=http://youtu.be/wiVjpbFzdeE]

Maybe it all started right here. All the nasty arguing and bickering, the great wedge between left and right, the absolute sureness so many have with regard to their own subjective political view.
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Mar 27, 2013 - 10:34pm PT
Damn couch baby, your teatard leanings never get this quantity of response back home, looks like you've found a new hobby.

Yeah, and that's it, I already regret poking my head into a political Supertorpid thread...

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 14, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
Hey,

it's only going to effect those 1%ers
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 14, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
Different era,


same methods and motivations.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 15, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
your commentary is as incisive and compelling as ever...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 15, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
Ron, how often do skydivers jump from above 18,000' (the lower limit of 'controlled airspace')?
Most turbine jump planes that I have seen are Twin Otters so they are
not allowed to go that high unless the pilot is using oxygen.

It is still a stupid tax.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 15, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
Ron, as far as I know jumping is only allowed in 'uncontrolled airspace'
unless special arrangements are made with the FAA or ATC. It may be that
jumping above FL 180 is SOP at heavily used jumping facilities. The one at
Perris comes to mind but it isn't that far from the final approach to March AFB.
Of course, nobody on the approach is going to be above 18K' but fighter jets
have been known to undertake 'creative' approaches.

Monday morning humour interlude:
One time I was flying my sailplane out of Hemet, just a few miles from Perris
on the other side of the March approach, and I was intently working
a thermal cause I had allowed myself to get kind of low (meaning almost out
of gliding distance back to the field). I gained a couple thousand feet and
was starting to breathe easier when all of a sudden a dark mass appeared in
my peripheral vision and quickly blotted out the ground! A C-141 Starlifter
passed directly below me! He looked so close and so big it appeared I could
have landed on his topside, if I could have caught him. I used the altitude
I had gained to get someplace safer. ;-)
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 15, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
Not all airports - many, maybe even most, small airports are in 'uncontrolled' airspace.
Even an airport with a tower can be in uncontrolled airspace,
and I can think of quite a few.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2014 - 10:47pm PT
Will wonders never cease. Ralph Nader must have been reading my posts. He's jumped on board the idea that President Obama should not in any circumstance be the judge, jury and executioner. In my mind and in keeping with the law of the land, NO President has this right.

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/02/ralph-nader-book-103908.html

Titled "Ralph Nader: Obama the ’executioner’"

highlight - "Obama “has extended the Bush doctrine by declaring his unilateral right, as secret prosecutor, judge, jury, and executioner, to destroy anybody, anywhere in the world, including American citizens, suspected to be engaged in alleged terrorist activities, all this vaguely and loosely defined as anti-U.S. security.”

If he can kill anybody, then YOU, reading this, (or me bitching) can also be defined as a terrorist and simply killed. Wrong on so many levels. Glad to see Nader, essentially a trial lawyer shill, jump on the bandwagon and make the case.




Nader's book makes the case for a bipartisan effort to 'dismantle the corporate state.'
By PATRICK GAVIN | 2/25/14 6:33 AM EST

In his new book, Ralph Nader calls for the end of “unconstitutional wars and unchecked militarism” — and lays blame on President Barack Obama for going beyond even George W. Bush.

Nader writes in “Unstoppable” that Obama “has extended the Bush doctrine by declaring his unilateral right, as secret prosecutor, judge, jury, and executioner, to destroy anybody, anywhere in the world, including American citizens, suspected to be engaged in alleged terrorist activities, all this vaguely and loosely defined as anti-U.S. security.”


He continues, “Inspired by the military actions of the Clinton administration, the Obama and Bush teams made a seamless transition into a militarized foreign policy, extending even further the illegal reach of wars of choice, invasions, incursions, and drone attacks, carried out irrespective of national sovereignties.”

The consumer crusader’s new book also makes the case for a bipartisan effort to “dismantle the corporate state.”

Nader, best known recently for his unsuccessful presidential runs, writes in “Unstoppable” (out in April), that “positive spirited persons of the Right and of the Left” can, in fact, come together.

“This book is addressed first to those people who are not knee-jerk rejectionists,” Nader writes. “It’s meant for those who want to explore another beckoning pathway — one that can rescue our country from being driven further into the ground and turn into a nation where many more of its inhabitants can fulfill their potential.”

(Also on POLITICO: Ralph Nader's plans for 2016)

“A major area of potential for building alliances comes from the deep aversion many people have to the wars of empire and corporate control over their lives, particularly the ever-tightening influence of Big Business on the mainstream media, elections, and our local, state, and federal governments.”

Much of the book focuses on Nader’s 25 proposed reforms, including linking the minimum wage with inflation and rethinking the war on drugs.

“The classification and prosecution of drug use as a crime has activated and corrupted law enforcement, encouraged a truly self-defeating form of big government, endangered urban neighborhoods and many thousands of lives, and drained tens of billions of dollars a year from taxpayers.”

Nader says that “almost all the politicians are for sale — with few enough successful exceptions to point to as the preferable, contrasting alternative of politicians actually concerned with the good of the people.”


Nader — no regular on the D.C. cocktail circuit — admits that pushing against the corporate state has its downfalls, especially for conservatives.

“Your social life might shut down,” he writes. “Invitations to homes and restaurants for dinner start to decline. You’re not on the guest list anymore. Outings with your customary friends and their families become rarer. Your deviation from the norm is seen as apostasy or blasphemy. A few tough-skinned conservatives may shrug this off. Most are hurt and cannot easily abide ostracism.”
couchmaster

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 16, 2014 - 07:46pm PT
I was asked:
"So Couchmaster, I have to ask you why you don't admonish Rong for such denigration of Hillary Clinton."

As I have said a few times before, I rarely read Rons posts. Rarely means that it is very very uncommon, but it does occur. I have been sucked into previous conversations and on occasion asked him questions. On those occasions I monitor the threads reading his posts and have been answered. Otherwise, I just don't read his posts, unlike some who hang on his every word so they can be nasty to him.
John M

climber
Jun 16, 2014 - 07:56pm PT
a year and a half ago you weren't as blinded by anger and bitterness.

……..


good post at the top of the page Couchmaster..
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