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couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 29, 2012 - 12:38pm PT
LOL

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 29, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
"New thread for the other side, have at it."

It's been done.

Over and over and over and over and over. Yawn.

Doesn't do anything but piss people off as it bumps more TR's and climbing-related material down.

Have at it.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 29, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
I'm guessing you're an expert on "Average."
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 29, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
That's it..! I'm voting for Romney...How could Obama trick us into thinking that he is liberal...?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Oct 29, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
Speaking of a typical Repugnican....

Credit: Sierra Ledge Rat
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
Hey, they got yer picture here:

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
shut the f*#k up . you racist . lying , hater....
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
SLR, I guarantee that guy has enough food and supplies to last a year. He probably doesn't give a sh*t about FEMA. He lives out on property because he likes privacy.


That's the worst meme ever, if that's how Libtards think, then they hold the name truly well.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
Bring out the pepper-spray. I hear them liberal type don't like it.

Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
^^^
Nice role model there Michaeld. Chubby probably lives out on there by himself because he's an anti-social paranoid who's incapable of getting along with others not like himself. No wonder he's a Republican.
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
Hey...

Wait a second here. First of all not "everyone" in "each party" is such a fanatic idiot.

I am a Democrat married to a Republican. We agree not to agree and... We actually do agree on a few things.

We are both...

Pro gun.
Believe in the right to choose when it comes to abortion.
Anti death penalty because it actually cost the state more to have folks in death row, (appeals, etc.)
We both hate Obama care. It does not regulate insurance companies and they are the one's making health care so outrageously expensive in the first place.
We both agree we need a better health system that provides to all, just not this one.
etc. etc.


In the end, we just want a better life and we are all Americans.


michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
Anastasia, what if Death Row meant they had 1 year to appeal their case before Execution?


Nice role model there Michaeld. Chubby probably lives out on there by himself because he's an anti-social paranoid who's incapable of getting along with others not like himself. No wonder he's a Republican.

Role Model? No. Just a person who believes in his rights. Do you? Probably not. You only care when they affect you directly.

Fat Dad, do you only climb at the gym because there are people there so you can be social? He probably lives out there because he lives in a small community and they have a lot of land per house. What's wrong with owning land?

Your fat, I take it, because your name.

Paranoid? Because he has an American flag? Or a Shotgun?

This country is failing because morons like you. No pride in anything but what you want as a (ignorant) person, not the principles on which this country was founded on.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
I must have hit a nerve Michael because you seem very butt hurt over a caustic response to your caustic posting. If you can't cope with rebuttals to your contributions, sarcastic or not, you may want to get some thicker skin or stay away from the keyboard.

A couple of quick points: not fat, dislike the gym and know my rights (as described in the Constitution and Bills of Rights) very well (better than most), and believe that people can more or less live wherever they want, though the choice of where to live can tell alot more about you then you might think. Sorry, but fat dude screaming while waving the flag and a shotgun while someone takes his pictures says nothing about "rights". It's only a poseur moment for the fat dude with a shotgun who believes he's making some statement that clearly brought a tear to your eye. If you believe there's content there then I suggest you're the one in need of study, not me. Sorry you're so guillable.

BTW, Anatasia, nice post. We should all respond as intelligently as you.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
I can't remembeer a harder belly laugh than I just had, except for some Friday night drunken posting sh#t, which is never as funny, really, as lampooning political asswipes.

My name's Rollie Finger-pointer, and I am voting on the Athletic ticket. You do not remember me. You do not remember me. You do not remember me. You do not remember me. You do not remember me.
Is it one finger or two for the split-finger fastball?  I dis-remember...
Is it one finger or two for the split-finger fastball? I dis-remember.



"OK, I know when my finger's licked."--Mouse said that
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
Sadly there have been a few folks on death row that after years of waiting to die, were later proven to be innocent. Our system is set up to prevent innocent men from dying and in theory would rather let a criminal be free. We want those folks wrongly jailed to have every chance to prove that. Yes, it does cost us way too much but imagine if you were that person, the one that actually was put away wrongly... This is the moral dilemma we try to rectify by allowing appeals. Goes by the motto, "innocent until proven guilty without doubt."

Good or bad, it's part of who we are.

AFS
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
The people claiming to be democrats on that other thread give democrats a bad name.

Hey dumbasses. Did you look at the US debt when Obama took office? under 10 trillion. It's over 16 trillion currently and on a trajectory that withstands understanding by any rational soul. Watch it for 20 seconds or so to see yer guy at work and understand that you are dooming the country's future.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Yeah, I know your response: "IT'S BUSHES FAULT"....it would be funny if it wasn't so painful.
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
Personally, I would not mind that. But alas... I respect the law above most things... I say most things because if I catch anyone hurting my son, abusing him in any way... I will not be sane. Nope... These are some powerful instincts.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
You're right, Anastasia. It's a part of who we are.

There was a time when every felony was punishable (and punished) by hanging. I thank God that is no longer true, because my date with the gallows would have taken place several years ago.

Now, in contrast, we have such a revulsion against intentional killing that we bend over backwards to make sure that we, as a society, don't do it to our prisoners. Even then, we still can get it wrong.

I sometimes wonder which is the greater number: those wrongly on death row, or those killed because a prisoner who, in earlier years, would have been executed was released. It could well be the latter, but I think that most members of society are more appalled at the prospect of the former.

John
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
Re the debt increase, here's some commentary from Politicfact.org. In short, over 50% of the debt increase is the result of Bush era tax cuts, the same policy that Romney will continue:
First, the bottom-line number on the debt: Yes, it has grown by $5 trillion during Obama’s tenure. Total debt has increased by $5.5 trillion since January 20, 2009, while the share of that debt held by the public has increased by $5 trillion.

But it’s not entirely correct to hang that increase on "Obama’s spending" alone.

In our previous item, we looked at calculations by the Treasury Department based on data from the Congressional Budget Office, the independent number-crunching arm of Congress.

To figure out what caused the accumulation of deficits over the past decade, CBO tracked the surplus it had projected back in 2001 and compared it with the actual cumulative deficits that resulted instead. CBO specifically broke out how much several laws contributed to the deficit, some of which started under Bush and some under Obama.

Because American Crossroads was only referring to the debt added during Obama’s tenure, we only looked at fiscal years 2009, 2010 and 2011. And because the American Crossroads ad does not reference how much the deficits fell below the surpluses that had been forecast by CBO, we’re going to exclude from our calculations a category CBO called its own "failures to predict economic conditions accurately."

We added up the lost revenue and additional spending each year and then calculated their percentage of the deficits over those three years.

Spending

Spending initiated by Bush policies: 4 percent of total deficits in 2009, 2010 and 2011
Spending initiated by Obama policies: 11 percent
Other increases in discretionary spending: 32 percent
Other increases in mandatory spending: 6 percent

Revenue reductions

Revenue reductions initiated by Bush policies: 11 percent
Revenue reductions initiated by Obama policies: 13 percent
Other unclassified revenue reductions: 5 percent

Interest

Net interest: 19 percent

The spending increases traceable to programs clearly attributable to Obama, combined with the increase in discretionary spending on his watch, account for about 43 percent of the three years worth of deficits.

So if you’re talking about what "drove us $5 trillion deeper in debt," then a clear majority stemmed from sources other than "Obama’s spending."

If you expand the definition from "Obama’s spending" to "Obama’s spending and tax cuts," you get to a total of 56 percent. Throw in 13 percentage points for the added interest costs of Obama’s policies and you’re at 69 percent.

Our ruling

The American Crossroads ad claims that "Obama’s spending drove us $5 trillion deeper in debt."

But not all of the $5 trillion can be attributed to Obama's spending. Much of it can be attributed to his tax cuts and the policies of President Bush. On balance, we rate the claim Half True.
Be careful what you wish for.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
Credit: Hawkeye

Credit: Hawkeye

Credit: Hawkeye

Credit: Hawkeye

Credit: Hawkeye

Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:09pm PT
Personally, I think anyone wanting this mess of being President is either a egomaniac or an idealist. There is no sane, rational person who would desire this kind of "no way to win," situation.

Yes, I dislike both candidates for very different and solid reasons. Neither of them impress me. Plus... No matter what, there is no quick fix. One, it's a BIG mess. Two, we are too engorged with a very slow moving government, We have too much bureaucratic red tape to get anything done. We are screwed so... My attitude is since I am screwed, I might as well enjoy the show.

Carry on folks. All the mud slinging is at least pointlessly entertaining.

AFS
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
Storm Warning!!

Everyone in the path of Hurricane Sandy should head immediately for the shelter of their third or fourth home.--I'm just plain old Mitt Romney, just an above-average political hack, and I approve this disguised campaign message

Warren Harding used every photo opp that came his way.

He was just your average Valley climber.

He never felt the need to tell vast lies like our recent Republican prexy.

Or drive anything better than a Corvette.

There are no average anythings, Couch Patty.

"Recrimination is painless" on the internet. I love it like I loved M*A*S*H.

"The Major happens to be the Korean distributor for crapola."--Hawkeye
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 29, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
And the New Democratic Party is not much like the Old Democratic Party. The old party was at least a party of unions -- practical-minded people. Obama has reshaped the Democratic Party into his own image -- an antiwar intellectual semi-professor. The New Democratic Party is the Nation magazine with candidates.

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
Re the debt increase, here's some commentary from Politicfact.org. In short, over 50% of the debt increase is the result of Bush era tax cuts, the same policy that Romney will continue:

Lets just start calling them the Obama tax cuts for the rich since Obama and the democrats in the house and senate decided to extend them and not let them expire had they done nothing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_tax_cuts. Regardless, I suspect we are not in disagreement on that.

Coming up, "Taxmageddon":
"In February 2012, the term "Taxmageddon" was coined by Congressional aides to refer to December 31, 2012, the date of the expected implementation of government spending reductions and expiration of a large number of tax cuts, many of which are the tax cuts enacted under George W. Bush and extended by President Obama.[52][53] "

And the Bush blame game continues. (I give Bush some of this blame too) At least you'll have a new disaster to blame on Bush......We need to cut government spending: specifically reducing our military footprint.


SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Oct 29, 2012 - 06:12pm PT

The original Republican salute!!!!

wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny,sawdust does not work like chalk
Oct 29, 2012 - 07:49pm PT
we the people,..........americans turning their backs on other americans,.....sustainable.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
I don't think President Obama is responsible for the deaths and disaster of the attack of our embassy in Libya. He shouldn't even have been near to the decision making process on that kind of thing. In fact, if you put it in perspective, they are still trying to see and say what caused the Indian/Chinese conflict 50 years later:

http://claudearpi.blogspot.com/2012/04/why-henderson-brooks-report-has-never.html

Good read.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
Yeah, I know your response: "IT'S BUSHES FAULT"....it would be funny if it wasn't so painful.

It would be funny if it weren't so true. And you think McCain would have done anything different? Not. Those cards were already long dealt by the time the president took office - any president.

Credit: healyje

You can't put three trillion dollars worth of Neocon pre-emptive wars on the national credit card and expect it to take less than a decade to climb out of the shitter. Anyone thinking this is Obama's fault because he couldn't turn W's trajectory around in one term is utterly delusional. Attempting to have done so would have instantly put us into a deep depression.

In reality our debt situation is courtesy of Reagan/Bush Sr/W militarism.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 11:49pm PT
he claimed LOUDLY he would cut them in HALF in his first term..

Cut whom in half Ron?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
He claimed a lot of things that haven't come true. Again, you think McCain / Palin campaign promises would have stacked up better with the economic hand that was already dealt? Not a chance - no one is turning this around in less than a decade and that's only if we stay out of significant military conflicts that long.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
It turns out Apogee is correct.

NOW HEAR THIS:

Abandon ship. This thread's not gonna reach the other shore.
See you on November 5th, suckers.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:03am PT
Suck it, righties!

Mitt Romney, spanked again!
Mitt Romney, spanked again!
Credit: dirtbag
bit'er ol' guy

climber
the past
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:24am PT
Wow......really, really lame.

stupid americans debate.

youtube clips presented as fact.

you can blame the political parties

but it's the blind dumbass followers like you

who waste your time sucking up this kind of vile media spew

until your so high on anger you spit it out as gospel without a second thought.

your being played.

we're being played!

your average american watches too much T.V.

drinks too much, smokes too much and waste thier money on useless crap.

sure buy a big ass gas guzzeling truck on credit

then whine about gas prices....

buy some more lottery tickets.....

then blame all your problems on.......the gubberment.

if you got any game at all, it shouldn't matter whothefcukthe president is.





mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Oct 30, 2012 - 05:47am PT
A few questions (hopefully answered by the posters on this thread).

1)The Iraq War wasn't fully accounted for in the debt or the budget by former President Bush when President Obama took office he accounted for it thus increasing the debt under his watch. My question is should he have not counted this in the budget or the debt?

2)The Federal Reserve (central bank)prints our currency. Each dollar is printed with interest attached to it. Our founding father's opposed central banking for this reason (among others). My question is do you support the Federal Reserve (central bank) system and why?

I look forward to well thought out and honest responses.

Thanks Eric
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 30, 2012 - 06:38am PT
I'm with Romney - let each state print their own money.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 30, 2012 - 06:43am PT
Money is the root of all politics.

Politics depends on it, or the system won't work.

Too much dumped in one side still doesn't guarantee a win.

And IMO the average Dem probably sees this and is repelled by the idea that a person might be elected who does believe this.

You know who 'They" are/is.

As to question one, IMO, the budget. It is likely (correct me if I'm wrong) that the budget would not support a war. But it's likely, too, that Congress would snipe the budgeteers.

But why add to the debt? That would really be bad news for the next generation. Not the kind of legacy I wish to leave.

Answer to number two: I don't trust the Fed. I did not say I support them, either. It's all we have for now. It is a glacial process, certainly, to make basic, sweeping changes in a financial system run by one single board and entrenched over many years.

However, we live in a United States. We use the same currency and our inflation rate in the last 50-60 years is (by one estimate, at least) the highest in a long while. The inflation of the units of currency here in the USA is around 600% since the founding of the Federal Reserve.

I emphatically do not trust that panel to provide the answer to this question. And I have no clue as to whether certain men are honest politicans. You vote and you take your chances to do so.
Others, like Mitt, make it easier for me, at leat, to choose.

I would not vote for a man on money issues, but he who has no job is all about mney. See how gullible I am?


philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 06:48am PT
Here is your "Average Democrat" Couch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_i1T87CLdg&feature=sharehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_i1T87CLdg&feature=share


Far more above average than any of you TeaBaglicant.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 30, 2012 - 06:52am PT
Our monetary system is fine, the real problem with our financial system is the percentage of it which has been moved 'off the books' into un- or under-regulated markets.
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Oct 30, 2012 - 11:46am PT
This is the USA public debt:
photo not found
Missing photo ID#271026
This is the monetary base:
photo not found
Missing photo ID#271027
This is the foreign debt:
photo not found
Missing photo ID#271028
This is real money:
photo not found
Missing photo ID#271030
Finally when those first 3 charts start to unwind towards the end of the next Obama adminstration you can expect even this doctored chart to reach for vertical...
photo not found
Missing photo ID#271031
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
How much came from being transparent about the real costs of Bush & Chenney's two illegal wars?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
The fact that Ron can't do simple math from a chart says plenty.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#269132
photo not found
Missing photo ID#270650
Average Republicans,
below average Americans.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
Truth hurts Ron.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
Yawnnnn.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:37pm PT
BTW Ron, Obama promised to cut the DEFICIT in half, not the national DEBT.

Do you know the difference?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:37pm PT
Well I don't know Ron, Illuminate me, what am I?
You wouldn't know a fact if it bit you.

And for the record here is my whole quote.

And for the record both Lynn and Jim did remarkable climbs. But Bridwell is an angry burned out husk. Lynn is still a upbeat active and vital person making a contribution to the world around her.
Please dispute with your inside info facts.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
You criticizing and critiquing Obama snort, chuckle, guffaw.
Suffering as you do from false equivalencies you just don't get it do you?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
"There's no shortage of their kind in the politically bluest parts of California. Liberals so freaked out about the prospect of President Obama losing his re-election bid that they can't sleep at night."

"...one of President Obama's top campaign strategists, has a word for supporters he feels are needlessly fretful: bed wetters."

http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/Dems-nervous-GOP-upbeat-as-vote-nears-3989238.php

Average Democrat = Bed Wetter. Obama's guy is right.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
Why is this it's own thread?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
You criticizing and critiquing Obama snort, chuckle, guffaw.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
Rong thinks 9/11 2012 = 9/11 2000
False equivalencies
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
Philo writes:

"Rong thinks 9/11 2012 = 9/11 2000"


What happened in 2000?
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:05pm PT
Anybody go back and actually read this thread? No wonder our world is sh#t, when there are real problems everyone just starts bitching and saying someone else is to blame. We are in this together, to stick to the mistaken idea that somehow we are independent is crap. Trying to win simply by defacing the other guy is something that adolescents do, putting forth ideas to solve problems, or work toward solutions is something statesman do, where have they gone?

The problem with Democrats is that they believe government and money can solve problems.

The problem with Republicans is that they are willing to sit by and watch government fail.

The problem with humans is that when things get scary, serious, and life threatening we stop thinking and start reacting, marginalizing, hoping no one notices that the floor is crumbling...

Charles
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:06pm PT
"What happened in 2000?"

A very important meeting called by Clinton with Shrub, Cheney and his security team regarding a pattern of communications and plans for a significant terrorist attack on the US sometime in the fall of 2001.

Clinton was patronizingly patted on the back, and shown the door.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
"The problem with Democrats is that they believe government and money can solve problems."

Not really true at all, except as it is hyperbolized in Republican political ads.


"The problem with Republicans is that they are willing to sit by and watch government fail."

99.9% true.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
Thank you Apogee.
Eric Beck

Sport climber
Bishop, California
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
I have been a strong Obama supporter. We had an Obama sign up in our yard before he was even nominated. However, he has done something very bad and done it gratuitously.
Section 1013 of the National Defense Authorization act allows indefinite preventive detention of anyone with out them being charged. These people will have no access to an attorney. This provision was specifically requested by Obama. See:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/09/1043781/-Why-Obama-Will-Not-Veto-NDAA-Military-Detention-of-Americans-He-Requested-It

My own guess as to why he did this is that he and the 1% were genuinely frightened by the Occupiers and wanted more ammunition to fight them.

This leaves me in a big quandry. I can't stand Romney. Perhaps I whould vote for Jill Stein, Rocky Anderson or Gary Johnson.
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
We would all get along easier if Democrats dropped gun issues and Republicans dropped the anti-gay agenda...

Charles
dirtbag

climber
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
Credit: dirtbag
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
Having a problem finding the source, so forgive me, but I heard sometime last year that some of the most stridently conservative inland California counties also use the most government support. I'll keep looking for the source on that...

Charles
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
socialclimber,

Nationwide Red states rely more heavily on government assistance than Blue ones do.
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
Fat Dad, that is interesting, but I want a source, even when I make the claim I want a source, whoever told it to me gave me something, but I cannot find it, without some sources claims are nothing... its a reason I don't listen to Glenn Beck.

Charles
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 30, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
socialclimber,

PM username "jhedge" from mostly the Repubs are wrong thread

he posts lots of studies and charts proving red states get more fed dollars in than they pay in taxes out
Sparky

Trad climber
vagabond movin on
Oct 30, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
“The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”—Winston Churchill”
dirtbag

climber
Oct 30, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
What's wrong with Obamacare?

Got a better idea?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 30, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
Well, they start from a very low set bar.



Hell, Andy Jackson even ran the first free gubmint cheese program.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 03:26pm PT
So how many of those on the dole in those 'Red' states are Dems?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 30, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
Your average Democrat is......more intelligent than your average Republican. State IQ statistics for 2012 show that residents of the blue states have, across the board, higher average IQ's than the residents of the red states. You don't have to belong to Mensa to know what that infers.
darkmagus

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
I love that (new?) argument that goes around trying to depict anyone that's liberal as "not tolerant" of intolerant people. It's an odd kind of logical fallacy that I can't quite put my finger on. But to them, I say, remember that our country was founded during "the enlightenment" and as such, expresses enlightenment-era values at its core. These values include, but are not limited to, things like freedom, reason, access to information, democracy, etc. The whole idea of it is to create a society that doesn't infringe on the freedoms of its individual members and their varied backgrounds and individual cultures. I suppose you can boil it down to: you can't tell someone what to do if they're doing nothing wrong (I.e. not infringing upon someone else's freedoms). So to take a classic example of something like gay marriage: if you're a republican and you want to be left alone and not heckled when you say hateful things about gays, you have to realize that you're f*#king with the core values of America when you demand the right to hate others of a particular group. What if you get what you want? Gay people can't marry or whatever. Do you want to put them in jail? Execute them? Where do you draw the line in terms of trying to take away another human's freedom? That's the whole point of this country, to have a place where you can be free and do your thing regardless of "religion, race, or creed". If your religion is the source of your distaste for gay marriage, for example, that's just your problem. Do we ban religion because it makes certain people hate other people? No one gets the right to decide what other people do, am I right? I mean, do you want people to tell you that you can't have guns? It's the same thing. If a dude wants to marry a dude, that's like you owning a gun. Some would say "that's f*#ked up", and perhaps they'd be right...or wrong...but it doesn't matter as long as everyone's basic freedom as a human isn't in question. So I say, stop that bullshit argument that sounds like, "aw come on, don't take away our right to be hateful oppressive bigots that wish to rob others of their freedoms as we deem appropriate..."
darkmagus

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:10pm PT
HO MAN that was my longest post yet.

Allow me to supplement it with some fine work from the geniuses at THE DEN OF LIBERAL INIQUITY (UC Berkeley):

http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/07/22_politics.shtml
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
State IQ statistics for 2012 show that residents of the blue states have, across the board, higher average IQ's than the residents of the red states. You don't have to belong to Mensa to know what that infers.

That inhabitants of blue states are unAmerican egghead intellectuals?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
Credit: eggheaded liberal somewhere in the 'netz
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
Having a problem finding the source, so forgive me, but I heard sometime last year that some of the most stridently conservative inland California counties also use the most government support. I'll keep looking for the source on that...

Charles

That doesn't surprise me, because the inland counties have huge unemployment problems. And as someone else has already suggested, I suspect that most of the recipients of government largesse here aren't Republicans.

I would add, though, that not all recipients of government largesse here are poor. I can think of several large farmers that live off the government dole, but then, many are Democrats.

Also, to the extent Social Security and Medicare constitute government expenditures, if the "red" states have disproportionate numbers of such recipients, that may explain the disparity.

Before the donkeys start to talk about the hypocrisy of wanting smaller government while collecting Social Security and Medicare, I would point out that it's not hypocritical to say "I wish I hadn't been required to pay for Social Security and Medicare" while, at the same time, collecting it. It would only be hypocritical if you gave them back all that was paid in on their behalf, and they then still insisted on receiving the same benefits.

John
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
The inland counties are where most of the state prisons are located.

Subtract prison spending, and run those numbers again. You'll see different results.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
"Average" Democrat. LOLz. It's the most diverse party our country has ever seen. Standing in stark, stark contrast to the overwhelmingly angry white geriatric obese male party.

To pretend that there is any such thing as an "average", in conversational use of the word, democrat is comical.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
State IQ statistics for 2012 show that residents of the blue states have, across the board, higher average IQ's than the residents of the red states. You don't have to belong to Mensa to know what that infers.

That inhabitants of blue states are unAmerican egghead intellectuals?

Actually, Anders, Daniel Patrick Moynihan had an explanation that I think you'd like: The closer the state is to the Canadian border, the higher the average IQ.

In truth, I'm unaware of any state IQ statistics that aren't derived from standardized achievement testing. The latter testing differs from IQ, because the achievement necessarily depends on such factors as the proportion of proficient English speakers, and this is somewhat correlated with the latitude of the state involved. So while the disparate statistics (which, incidentally, don't reflect the difference Jim alleges) aren't unAmerican, maybe it does help to live closer to you Canadians.

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:42pm PT
To pretend that there is any such thing as an "average", in conversational use of the word, democrat is comical.

Or to quote Will Rogers, "I belong to no organized party. I am a Democrat."

John
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
Perhaps sanity and intelligence are a function of the distance one lives from the equator. Them Inuit is smart cookies.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
"...it's not hypocritical to say "I wish I hadn't been required to pay for Social Security and Medicare" while, at the same time, collecting it."


Yeah, it's easy to say that...reality is a whole different set of circumstances, though.

But just for the hell of it...let's say the GOP's wet dream was fulfilled, and SS & Medicare were wiped out completely tomorrow.

What would replace it? Private investment strategies that continue to be unregulated, and treat the investors as dumb piggybanks to be robbed?

Privately held medical insurance programs that maintain the shareholder's interests over the patient?

No thanks.

mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Oct 30, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
Well where are the responses to the questions I posed? Ron, Hawkeye, TGT, Corniss Chopper, etc?

No well thought out replies---what I expected actually. You would have to think, reason, and type. Way to hard of work to expect a Zomney supporter to do, especially when they have to search for brains.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2012 - 10:37pm PT
Well, not to change the subject, but it looks like Obama care is getting off very strong.

zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:38pm PT
Gooble Gobble

Don't expect any explanations here, watch the film and figure it out yourself



Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:56pm PT
Ron! Re your mention up-forum:

Yes high IQers.. Worked with several of those in the USFS... Quite bright they thought themselves to be.. Yet as ignorant of the actual forest and things real that they seemed all but brain dead.

I once had a forester -brilliant by test standards tell me of a three month old plantation with missle toe.. Then i pointed out to them they were looking at a 35 to 40 yr old banzai jeffery pine.. They said,,,, ohhhwwwww....Then i went on to tell them about missle toe and the fact it takes at least two years to manifest to a visible infection..To which they said,, ohhhhwwww....

I would be more impressed with your story, if you spelled Mistletoe correctly. Every Forest Sevice employee I ever worked with in Idaho called it Dwarfmistletoe, since it is only distantly related to English Mistletoe.
http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/fidls/d_fir/dmistletoe.htm

Yeah, but the smart guy didn't know schist. Must have been a Democrat.

You being a Forest Cop, obviously had the science down.

Yep!
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Oct 30, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
Ron my dad once told me he doesn't know everything but he can find out who to ask, once you find someone with the experience your looking for--ask, listen, and do what they say. In the bolting case I asked more than just you. I want to put up quality and am willing to be patient, prepare, plan, and execute.

Why can't you answer the questions?

1)Should Obama have not accounted for the expenditures accumulated under Bush for the Iraq war in our budget or debt?


2)Should we continue using the Federal Reserve (central bank) system opposed by the founding father's due to the debt attached to every dollar printed (among other reasons? Why?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2012 - 09:52am PT
Well, one thing Obama promised is that he'd raise our standing internationally. However, the Bush-Obama forigon policy's have done nothing but hurt us internationally and the end result is that we have to spend money on the military to get our way. Romney would be just as bad. Here's Iran below, but the news in the middle east, from Israel to Oman, is that we are an unreliable partner.

http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9107116184

Leader: Americans Enslaved to Zionist Regime

"TEHRAN (FNA)- Supreme Leader of the Islamic Revolution Ayatollah Seyed Ali Khamenei described the US administration as the most hated government in the world, saying that the White House has enslaved the American nation to Zionists.


Addressing a large crowd of Iranian students on Wednesday, the leader noted, "It is a great shame that the US presidential candidates compete with each other in their debates to show their devotion to the Zionists and have made their nation their slave."

Calling the US administration as the most hated one in the entire world, Ayatollah Khamenei reminded the US administration's allegation about war on terror, and said the White House has fallen so deep that "it has become an ally of MKO terrorist group, even renders support to the terrorist Monafeqin (hypocrites as usually referred in Iran) and removed it from its blacklist."

Pointing to the US claims on advocating human rights, the Leader said, "The most hostile anti-human rights measures are taken with the US support. The Zionists who have been violating the rights of the oppressed Palestinian nation for 60 year are fully supported by the US administration."

Ayatollah Khamenei also referred to the number of American prisoners in the country and said, "The high number of inmates in the US which has placed the country atop the world (in this regard) runs counter to the administration's allegations on supporting freedom of the people."

The US has been staunchly criticizing Iran's human rights conditions, while the country has been widely blamed for trampling upon minority rights." ................
blah blah etc etc

Studly

Trad climber
WA
Oct 31, 2012 - 10:11am PT
So what exactly is inaccurate about what he said Bill? Seems fairly represenative of whats going on, unless you are sppon fed on Faux News.
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Oct 31, 2012 - 11:52am PT
So the debt and the Fed's role in the economy hangs out there as a unresolved issue; I'll think I'll bring up jobs this Halloween. So lets looks at population growth; with growth still trucking along at 10%/decade or 1%/year:
photo not found
Missing photo ID#271281
So with population going up (driven by lax immigration policies)how are jobs doing:
photo not found
Missing photo ID#271282
Let's not forget the ruling class and their tax payer backed pensions:
photo not found
Missing photo ID#271283
To combine the three charts with get the Obama record on job creation:
photo not found
Missing photo ID#271284
And finally a lot of lip service is paid to education; so how is that liberal arts/art history degree panning out:
photo not found
Missing photo ID#271286

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 31, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
That's an interesting look on job creation and education.

Perhaps the Republicans shouldn't have blocked the bills put forth by Obama that would have helped job creation and students seeking an education.


Google "Republican Block Bills", you'll find the heart of the GOP right there...


Got a graph for that??


photo not found
Missing photo ID#271227
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
Basically, the Republican platform is:

Sure, we drove the economy over the cliff. But this guy hasn't fixed it fast enough, so give it back to us....trust us...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
Oct 16, 2012 - 10:11pm PT

"Ron, you really are a potato head."
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
Yes, it's far better to ignore them, and make up your own detached reality, isn't it?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Oct 31, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
Your average democrat?



I'll go with guy number one 11 out of 10 times.


Credit: survival






Guy number two.
Credit: survival
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:08pm PT
K-man has hit the nail directly on the head with the fact that the GOP-led Congress blocked a lot of Obama's and Democrats' bills.

The Republicans were not acting bi-partisan, they were not acting for the average American nor the middle class families. They were acting to spite Obama and his administration, to spite the Democrats' attempts to fix the problems of the Bush administration, and they were acting to further the interest of the wealthy and corporations at the expense of the United States.

Even for those on this forum that do not like Obama, surely you can see that.


And if you can't see that reality, I guess you are going to vote for Zomney. May the heavens help America if MIttens gets elected.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
Even for those on this forum that do not like Obama, surely you can see that.

Ummmm, hate to be the one to break it to you Patrick....
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
Ron there may be truth in that to some extent, but I would wager that most of the gridlock was the Republicans doing.
Ricky

climber
Sometimes LA
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:22pm PT

Ron accuses Democrats of partisan gridlock and cites renewal of the Bush tax cuts as an example.

And he won't understand the problem with that.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
K-man has hit the nail directly on the head with the fact that the GOP-led Congress blocked a lot of Obama's and Democrats' bills.
it WASNT ONLY the repub side of the coin that brought gridlocks... Two words,, harry reid-tard.

Bingo! Both houses passed legislation to their liking. Reid, in particular, never brought up the House's bills for a vote. That's why the Senate has not acted on a budget. The idea that the Democrats have been flexible and the Republicans rigid holds water only in Democratic pails.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
"Bullshit! The idea that the Republicans have been flexible and the Democrats rigid holds water only in Republican pails. "

Fixed that for you.

Your welcome.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
1)Should Obama have not accounted for the expenditures accumulated under Bush for the Iraq war in our budget or debt?


2)Should we continue using the Federal Reserve (central bank) system opposed by the founding father's due to the debt attached to every dollar printed (among other reasons?

Mountainlion,

I didn't see your posts until today. I normally try not to post on any political thread except the Republicans are always wrong one, but since that thread has degenerated into little more than name-calling and uncritical thought, while this thread seems to have some real issues involved, I'm breaking that self-imposed rule.

Your first question assumes facts not in evidence. The idea that a president can unilaterally change fiscal policy has no Constitutional basis. Congress determines fiscal policy. Thus, charging Obama with raising the deficit assumes power he doesn't have. Of course, the only reason Republicans point out the massive rise of federal spending under Obama is that he campaigned on a premise that he would reduce that deficit.

That said, I think the rhetoric of your question raises a valid point. Obama inherited two wars, and (prudently, IMHO) did not try an immediate disengagement. I don't think it's fair to blame war expenditures on him alone.

Your second question, however, has to my mind a clear answer: "Yes." We tried being on the gold standard, and its inflexibility led to depression after depression. The American economy, with its use of debt, deflates poorly. Using debt for investment greatly increased our standard of living. Unfortunately, I can't say the same about debt used for consumption of non-durables. Nonetheless, until someone can show me a better alternative to the Fed, I think that we must continue to employ it as our primary tool of executing monetary policy.

John
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
John, Ron. Can you name one bill that the Republicans sponsored that would have helped the US middle class if passed?


I've got my phone set on Notify so I'll get your answer as soon as you post it...
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
Reid didn't bring House Bills to a Vote that He knew would get filibustered.

Who would do the filibustering, Dr. F?, The bills passed the Republican house, so the only likely filibusterers would be Democrats.

Sorry, but the narrative of you, apogee, and the rest of the Democrats on gridlock fails.

For the record, it was Boehner who attempted to negotiate a "grand bargain" with Obama. He failed because Obama refused to compromise when it mattered. Obama has yet to show any substantial ability to negotiate, much less compromise, on anything important.

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
Here you go, k-man:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/house-passes-jobs-bill-with-wide-bipartisan-margins/2012/03/08/gIQAEi6lzR_story.html

John
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
I know that these sort of political threads are really there for the OP to vent some steam. And then other posters to react in same, for the most part.

While there may be some swingers on the Taco Stand, I don't see any swing voters. Those of us that post I'd reckon for the most part are singing to the same choir as their beliefs and ideologies.

There has not been one post that would make me think otherwise about who I believe should be POTUS, nobody has convinced me that Romney is better than Obama. And I suspect that is vice versa, that those who do not like Obama are not going to be swayed by any Supertopians who don't like Romney.

We are all preaching to fellow 'believers' it seems. May the best man (for the USA) win.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
Politics is politics. Historically, somewhere in that process, the country is lead forward on one agenda or another.

There is an undeniable amount of fact & quotes to demonstrate that the ONLY agenda Republicans had after their 2008 spanking was to filibuster and block ANYTHING that was put in front of them, no matter how closely aligned it might be with their own priorities.

The PRIMARY goal of the Republicans has been to block EVERYTHING, and make Obama a one term president. That kind of cynical, anti-American agenda is an absolute abdication of their leadership responsibility, and is worthy of the termination of every single one of them.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
JE
you seem to have a comprehension problem, anytime you get cornered, all of sudden you can't understand

Reid is in the Senate, the Senate Republicans filibuster

Same to you! We Republicans (and independents who know Nevada politics like Ron), claim that Reid fails to bring bills passed by the Republican House up for a vote. Your response is that Reid won't bring up bills that will be filibustered.

Again, I ask, why would Senate Republicans filibuster bills passed by the Republican House?

Take your time in answering. I'm trhough waiting for my econometric runs, so my break time is over.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
"...independents who know Nevada politics like Ron"

Ron? 'Independent'?

Bwahahahahahahahhahahahaaaa11111!!169696911192
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
The polls say the Independents are going to Romney this year.

They've had enough of this sh#t too, just like everybody else.
Ricky

climber
Sometimes LA
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
For the record, it was Boehner who attempted to negotiate a "grand bargain" with Obama.

Yes, that does need to be in quotes. And I think Obama made him cry.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:39pm PT
Your an 'Independent' like I'm an 'Independent'.

Not even close.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
'researching the crap out of this election,'

Bah! You don't 'research' anything, Ron.

You simply read the whacknut links that your whacknut Repug cohorts send to you, then C&P them here.

Your voter ID card may say 'Independent', but you have your face deep in the GOP's kool-aid trough.


Edit: Take a guess as to what my voter ID card says.

(Good guess!)
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 03:01pm PT
Ron, there is a very strong chance that the economy is going to improve in the next 4 years, no matter who wins next week.

If/when that happens, if Rmoney is in office, I'm sure you'll fall right in line with the rest of the jackbooted Repugs saying 'Rmoney fixed it!'

If Obama is in office, there's no doubt in my mind that you'll say 'it's still sucks!'

(I think I'll bookmark this post for future reference.)
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 03:11pm PT
See what I'm talkin' about, Ron?

Your mind is already made up. It hasn't changed, it won't change. Ever.

That's not an 'Independent'. That's a Droid.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
Doc, it was obama who made these leaps against the constitution. Rewarding that is insane. If WE speak up, eventually after enough "firings" maybe washington will realize the "gig" is up...

True Ron. Romney hasn't spoken out against it, and is in lockstep with the "kill them all and let God sort them out including Americans citizens who think incorrectly" drone policy of Obama. The only alternative to a jackbooted Obama is Gary Johnson is it knott?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 31, 2012 - 03:18pm PT
Here you go, k-man:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/house-passes-jobs-bill-with-wide-bipartisan-margins/2012/03/08/gIQAEi6lzR_story.html

John


Thanks John. In your link, I read:

House Republicans voted down an amendment to the package that would have required large publicly-traded companies to disclose how many of their employees are based in this country vs. overseas. In the final vote, 230 to 175, all but three Republicans opposed the amendment.

And ...


Although most House Democrats voted for the bill Thursday, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) — who also voted for it — called the proposal “so meager” and much less effective than transportation funding bills being weighed in the House and Senate.


Wow, that is quite an example of a bill that the GOP sponsored to help our middle class... (not)
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
Actually, it's a rather excellent example of the way the Democrats' leaders feel. Because the bill didn't contain all that Pelosi wanted, we are all to assume that the bill's help was meager? Who's being partisan here?

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 04:06pm PT
" i arrived at this in nearly four years of consideration."

What a load of Krap®.

I've been in these polititard threads longer than you have, Ron, and my memory of your posts is crystal-clear: from the start, all the way to today and into the future, you've railed on Obama & the Democratic agenda.

Don't know why I would bother to look, but every damn post I can find of yours (and that's a LOT) confirms this.

Don't give me that 'careful, thoughtful consideration' bullsh#t. It's bullsh#t.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 31, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
anastasia posts:

Wait a second here. First of all not "everyone" in "each party" is such a fanatic idiot.

I am a Democrat married to a Republican. We agree not to agree and... We actually do agree on a few things.

We are both...

Pro gun.
Believe in the right to choose when it comes to abortion.
Anti death penalty because it actually cost the state more to have folks in death row, (appeals, etc.)
We both hate Obama care. It does not regulate insurance companies and they are the one's making health care so outrageously expensive in the first place.
We both agree we need a better health system that provides to all, just not this one.
etc. etc.


In the end, we just want a better life and we are all Americans.


I'm very sad to say that your husband is no longer a Republican.

Oh, they're very glad to get his vote, and they don't care how he registers But he is not considered a "real American" by that crowd, anymore than you or I are, and he will NEVER NEVER be allowed to contribute to policy decisions.

He is pro-choice, which means they define him as a murderer (in philosophy, if not in fact), who should be subject to the same death penalty that you both oppose.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 31, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
Ron, serious question:

Does it not bother you that Mitt Romney is a serial, congenital, shameless liar?

I mean over and over and over. Even after called out by the press, he doubles down and continues to tell bald faced lies. The most recent, this week, about the auto companies got so outragelously ridiculous that the CEO of Chrysler stepped up and called bullsh#t. And that's one example of like a thousand.

Steve Benen has been tracking the lies of Mitt in the campaign, and the breadth is just stunning. They are on installment #34 of the series, and each installment typically has 5-15 examples from the week. You can read the latest one and then scroll to the bottom for links to the other 33:

http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2012/09/14/13865583-chronicling-mitts-mendacity-vol-xxxiv?lite

These are all sourced with heavily linked supporting documentation exposing the lies.


The guy has a serious psychological problem, he lies more than anyone I've ever been exposed to. It's f*#kin' creepy and sad, and a little infuriating. There was always one kid in grade school who just told whopper after whopper, "my dad played in the NFL and I've got a pet tiger at home"...that's who Mitt reminds me of.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
Left & Right, till death do them part
Left & Right, till death do them part
Credit: apogee
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 31, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
No Ron, they are not "half truths". The most recent stuff about the auto industry got both the "Four Pinocchios" rating from the WaPost, as well as the "Pants on Fire" rating from Politifact...both the worst ratings they give. In other words, straight up bald faced lying. Yet Mitt doubles down and continues to run the ads, not caring in the slightest that he is lying to the country and specifically to the people of Ohio.

There is no world in which the ongoing, chronic, shamless, bald faced, LYING of Romney is even remotely comparable to anything coming out of the Obama campaign.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
Not even a close comparison, Ron.

Sure, both candidates stretch truths....but Rmoney has set a whole new low standard for the sheer number and audacity of them.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
I'm very sad to say that your husband is no longer a Republican.

Oh, they're very glad to get his vote, and they don't care how he registers But he is not considered a "real American" by that crowd, anymore than you or I are, and he will NEVER NEVER be allowed to contribute to policy decisions.

He is pro-choice, which means they define him as a murderer (in philosophy, if not in fact), who should be subject to the same death penalty that you both oppose.

If we accept your logic, Ken, neither is Anastasia a "real" Democrat. Believe it or not, there are still plenty of Republicans who think abortion should be legal, just as there are plenty of Democrats who don't think all Republicans fall back on guns and religion, or who cringe at the notion of "One nation under God." In fact, I rather suspect that a pro-choice Republican has more of a chance at being heard among Republicans than an anti-abortion Democrat does among Democrats. Heaven forbid if someone like Joe Lieberman wants to have a voice in the Democrats' policy or, in the last election, in their party at all.

In truth, though, it's the people in the middle who are becoming increasingly marginalized in both parties. Here in Fresno, the environmental left ran a series of ads against a local Democratic congressman whose voting wasn't pure enough for their line. Nationally, Blue Dog Democrats have become an endangered species within the Democratic party, just as moderate Republicans are subject to Tea Party attack as RINO's.

Here in California, the Republicans defined themselves so far to the right of the center that they've made themselves largely irrelevant. Unfortunately, that allowed the Democrats to entrench themselves in the legislature in a way that they were unaccountable to anyone but other Democrats, and have moved just as far to the left of center. Currently, no one speaks for the center.

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 05:23pm PT
Not even a close comparison, Ron.

Sure, both candidates stretch truths....but Rmoney [sic] has set a whole new low standard for the sheer number and audacity of them.

I'm sorry to read this, apogee, because it reflects, to me, an adherence to partisanship that has come to define contemporary American politics. Perhaps it's just a product of modern journalism that's confused advocacy with accuracy and "investigative reporting" for objectivity. I fear that most people don't even recognize the biases in their information sources any more. As a result, anything that views the world differently becomes a "lie."

I find much of what the supporters of both candidates say to be a lot of half-truths, but it could be worse. The ads for and against the various ballot propositions here in California contain not only half-truths, but quite a few truth-and-a-halfs.

The idea that people feel competent to decide complex issues by 15-second sound bites should alarm anyone interested in rational policies, but that is the current reality. Until some form of journalism committed to objectivity and accuracy becomes so compelling that it commands an overwhelming audience, I see little prospect for improvement.

John
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 31, 2012 - 06:12pm PT
Whatever anybody does, please do not quote Faux News. Come on, even the dog in the street knows the bias this Murdoch-shite channel brings to the party.

For those that want to quote Faux News, there must be more objective media outlets that can reflect your views.

Obama, as McCain would have had he won, inherited a very poison chalice. You just cannot turn around eight years of mismanagement in four years.

Personally, I think two things need to be done. Firstly, get rid of the Electoral College, it's archaic, let the majority vote of the people be the one that decides.

Secondly, let's change the Constitution where the office of POTUS is a one-term six-year office. Too many time have presidents, of any party, used the fourth year of their first office term to campaign. Sometimes to the detriment of the country.

It will take a while to rid the stench of the Dubya/Cheney/Rumsfeld years, if Obama can keep trying, okay. If Romney thinks he has the answers, and he gets elected, lets hope, for the better of the nation, that he has the answers. But somehow, I do not think he does.

Lies, damn lies and statistics. Stats can be used in both arguments, for and against.

I am amused that people think that Obama is a liar, perhaps he is, after all, he is a politician. But Mittens is even a bigger liar. And while politics is a dirty business, the Republicans, to their credit/discredit, have almost perfected the dirty, mud-slinging spin. Touché, on their part.

I certainly feel safer in the past four years than I did in the Bush Jr. years. Financially? Everybody has taken a hit (bar the big boys, politicians and uber wealthy).

Unfortunately, I believe Sandy will benefit Romney, as many of those hardest hit would probably have voted for Obama in the election. I hope that I am wrong and these voters will turn out on election day, despite the misery the super-storm has imposed upon them.

Perhaps it does not matter to some of you, but because the US and its policies affect much of the world, most Irish people (and non-Irish) I have met and talked with, want Obama to win. And it is not the circles I am running in, though I often run circles around myself. ;-).

They are genuinely afraid that Mittens will continue Dubya's administration's policies. To the detriment of both the US and the world. That is my take on it.

At this point in time I believe continuity is important. Obama hasn't done super great, but he hasn't done a bad job so far, collectively.

To all of you Supertopians, vote the way your heart/conscious/mind feels is right. Just vote. I have been to the US embassy and cast my vote.

Whoever wins the next POTUS election, let's hope they do the utmost to help out our country. We need it. The world needs it.

I just hope that those of you who vote against Obama do not do it because of his ethnic background, that you are not "birthers" (ridiculous). Remember the State of Deseret. I don't want that, not that it would remotely happen. But the mindset of it that carries forth to this day is not desirable in my eyes.

Heck what next, a Scientologist being elected prez? Tom or John, step forward.

Okay, perhaps I went a bit over the top on that last statement. In a 'joustful' manner. But no more than those who claim that Obama is a Kenyan. For heaven's sake, get your head out of the toilet and stick it in a pot of strong coffee.

EDIT

And JE, a hypothetical (very) question? Which of the two, Obama and Romney, would stand up against Turkish aggression agains the Armenians? Interesting, no? What does it have to do with the 2012 election? Perhaps, special interests would run the day, or rue it.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Oct 31, 2012 - 06:13pm PT
Credit: survival
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 31, 2012 - 06:29pm PT


http://www.pe.com/local-news/riverside-county/temecula/temecula-headlines-index/20121030-temecula-man-67-jailed-over-damaged-political-signs.ece

Crowley?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 31, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
"...because it reflects, to me, an adherence to partisanship that has come to define contemporary American politics."

John, I would be very sorry to think that you find that Rmoney's complete disregard for facts, and willingness to take 180 degree turns on virtually every one of his positions, is anything similar to his opponent, or any of his Party's preceding candidates. I understand and respect your political positions, but to not be able to see this speaks loudly to your own adherence to partisanship.


Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 31, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
If we accept your logic, Ken, neither is Anastasia a "real" Democrat. Believe it or not, there are still plenty of Republicans who think abortion should be legal, just as there are plenty of Democrats who don't think all Republicans fall back on guns and religion, or who cringe at the notion of "One nation under God."

John, I gather that you haven't really looked at the respective parties, lately.

You will find that the democrats WILL accept people with divergent views, because they are.....liberal! They also do not define those who have divergent views as being "not real Americans".

There ARE plenty of self-described Repubs who are pro-choice, but they will NEVER, NEVER be allowed to represent the party.

And I think that is unfortunate
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 31, 2012 - 07:51pm PT
There ARE plenty of self-described Repubs who are pro-choice, but they will NEVER, NEVER be allowed to represent the party.

This may not sit well with some, but Fattrad was actually a neo-conservative/neo-liberal/and nice guy. It's a shame that he is no longer allowed to contribute, but while being a troll at times, he did bring some insights. And while he was repetitive (to say the least) he was not so far right as some Taco Standers. Hmm, I'd love to say names but that would not be positive.

Okay, all of his name-dropping and "I was a tough reserve deputy" BS was a bit wearisome, but Jeff (Fattrad) is a Republican who had some liberal views, on some things mind you.

I think that the key to a healthy society and democracy is that we take the (moderate) views of all sides and see how we can 'mesh' them together, in a compromise.

There are some rabid right wingers on the Taco Stand (you know who you are) and some stringent lefters (but really, not that many, IMO, most liberals on this forum are far more open minded than the right-twits, but I would write that, wouldn't I).

Chill out. If you really love America, open your minds.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 31, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
Actually, it's a rather excellent example of the way the Democrats' leaders feel. Because the bill didn't contain all that Pelosi wanted, we are all to assume that the bill's help was meager? Who's being partisan here?


John, I'm not being partisan and we are not "all to assume." I merely quoted the article you referenced.


And, since you say the bill aimed to help the middle class, why this:

House Republicans voted down an amendment to the package that would have required large publicly-traded companies to disclose how many of their employees are based in this country vs. overseas. In the final vote, 230 to 175, all but three Republicans opposed the amendment.

Rep. Gary Peters (D-Mich.) introduced the amendment to shed more light, he said, on how many American jobs are being outsourced, as many multinational companies do not reveal where their employees are based. Yet data show that multinationals as a group reduced their domestic head counts by 2.9 million while adding 2.4 million jobs in other countries between 2000 and 2009.

I think the Republicans want to hide how much they are moving jobs overseas. Not a real help to the middle class, eh?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 31, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
There is no way to generalize the Democratic Party anymore. Half of Democrats are ex-Republicans who wandered into the party after Limbaugh and his wanna-be's hijacked the Conservative Message.

So if you look at Democrats as a group, it is wildly diverse. Imagine the Zombie Apocalypse where the new Conservatives are the Zombies, and the Democrats are everyone left over.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 07:16am PT
And Ron, what are his (Obama's) actions? Could you have cleaned up the mess better? Could McCain? And you really think that Romney is the key?

In some (perverse?) way, I'd like to see Romney win, just so I can say four years from now after he has screwed things up further, "Ron, I told you so, nah nah nah nah na".

But that would be childish of me.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 1, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
Ron, yer straw man is burning.

Credit: survival
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
Ron, destroying the Constitution?

Your man, the idiot Bush, and his administration did far more harm to the United States Constitution than Obama has to date. Far more.

Ron, I am not into name calling or flaming, but if you think otherwise about my above statement, than I seriously have to think about your mental state.

Okay, you are NUTS.

Now, little boy, go get your toy soldiers and play war, and give us sane, adult and reasonable people some peace for a couple of days.


Otherwise, we'll have to call the Waaaambulance for you.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 1, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
It has little to do with Obama and everything to do with the structure of the balance of power in our government which was explicitly designed to constrain executive power. The executive seeks power and carte blanche and seldom gives back any it is extended regardless of the party of the president in office.

This has become an a real issue since the abuses of the Nixon administration. Most of today's elder republicans served under the Nixon and Reagan administrations and have always felt those presidents exercised legitimate executive power in their actions. As a result they have been on a forty year campaign to expand executive power which culminated in the appointment of Roberts and Alito to the SCOTUS. Both men were and are activist supporters and advocates for the expansion of executive power - it's why they sit on the bench and why Roberts runs the court.

If you don't like what you perceive to be abuses of executive power then the only place you can lay the blame is on conservatives who still believe Nixon got a raw deal and think Reagan and Bush Sr's covert actions where legitimate exercises of executive power. I personally lay a lot of the blame on Ford - Reagan, Bush Sr, and W wouldn't have conducted themselves the way they did if Ford (and then Reagan, and W) hadn't pardoned folks for continuing abuses of executive power.

In short, the reason behind Obama continuing W's abuses lie more with the office than with the man and is another chapter in a four decade case study on the consequences of the unpunished abuse of executive power. And ensuring there is never another Nixon 'persecution' for a president simply 'doing his job' is the whole point of this enduring republican campaign for defending and enabling abuses of executive power at every turn.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
Research?

What, you call research Faux News?

Ronnie Boy, methinks the desert heat has fried your brains.

I do not know why I even bother responding to a moron. I have tried to keep my level of conversation at a decent rationale. But I am beginning to really believe that you are a bigot. A black man as POTUS?

"Yes, dear Ronnie," says Mom. "Times have changed."

Forget the stats, as they can tell two different stories. Look at the FACTS.

I truly feel sorry for you Ron. Sincerely, I do, like many people you are under a cloud of misinformation.

People like you sadden me. I expect ignorance from certain quarters, but you usually come across as intelligent. Perhaps I should rethink that aspect of you.


Now boy, grab your gun and protect your goolies. Cause those nasty Obamamites and Democrat vampires are coming for you. Wooo Wooo.


EDIT

IMO, people like you will be the cause of the downfall of the United States. polarization, spreading lies and misinformation, neighbor against neighbor, hatred, spewing useless site. I would like to say that I hope you are happy with life, but you come across as a bitter person.

Hey, go out and climb some desert formations, take that mind of yours off of politics. It might do you some good.

;-) Smiles, all smiles. Best wishes Ron and cheers.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
Ron, my mom died January 5, 2007.

But thank the heavens she was a good West Virginian liberal Mountaineer.

Still, if you can find the time to get your head out of the toilet and into a fresh jug of coffee, not decaf, then you might wake up.


and Ron, I wasn't putting your mother into the conversation, you twit, it was a "metaphor" so to speak. Oh excuse me, too big of word, let's see now...


...hmmm, I am just wondering how to talk to an ignoramus in simple words.


See the cat...CAT, can you say that?

See the dog... woof woof, can you say that? Woof Woof.

See Mitt and Paul run? Aren't they having fun?

Can you spell Mitt? Can you spell Sh*t? Mitt and Sh*t rhyme. Isn't this fun now children. Now turn to page two in your books.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
Credit: Hawkeye

this was about average democrats wast it?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:11pm PT
Gosh Hawkeye, a self-portrait of you.

But you couldn't have taken the photo, unless...

...Nahhhh


I am having fun with you guys. Do I pay you or you pay me?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
Just an average Democrat doing his job.

Credit: survival
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:18pm PT
Yes, he has, and while a disappointment, it's a good object lesson on tendencies of the executive branch and why the founders struggled to come up with a system which would constrain those tendencies. Your party is utterly dedicated to preserving and expanding abuses of the executive's Constitutional powers and allowing / encouraging it to abridge and skirt both the Constitution the Bill of Rights at every turn it can and now has a Supreme Court to allow it.

The 9/11 attacks were unfortunate triggers allowing the neocon republicans to launch two preemptive wars and the broad expansion of executive power necessary to enable their 'new american century'. It took OBL and the Neocons together to bring the nation to a new low and Obama's failure to bring the W administration up on treason charges simply defers justice yet again and encourages more of the same by future generations just as the Ford pardon did.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
yup survival, it was a great political move....

you can hear the phone call now right?

BO: well chris, you kiss my a$$ and i might get you some help, how does that sound?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
From Lethal Weapon 2

Consulate Envoy: Sir, listen to your friend, here. He knows what he’s talking about. I don’t think you want to go to South Africa.
Roger Murtaugh: Why not?
Consulate Envoy: B-Because you’re black.

From Blazing Saddles

Howard Johnson: [reading] As honorary chairman of the welcoming committee, it's my privilege to present a laurel and hearty handshake to our new...
[looks up and sees Bart]

Howard Johnson: ...nigger.


Ron and Hawkeye, those white sheets you wear, they must get awfully dirty, have you tried bleach?

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
Hey Ron and Hawkeye

The three of us are sanctimonious. I can play 'geetar' and harmonica, and I am learning the piano, perhaps the three of us can get together as the "Sanctimonians". And I am a trained tenor (no fiver jokes please).

I do not mind playing music with close-minded people, it may help you to let go of your anal retentiveness. Music can do that.


EDIT

A long hard day, and now I am turning on fellow Supertopians (though they do not know what they think). I could go kick the cat, but I have never resorted to such a low blow.

I tell you what right-wingers (Ron, Hawkeye, Blue tooth, um Bluering, Couchmaster - that says a lot, couch potato, I read, and other anti-Amercian lovers of your ilk) go ahead and make crude dolls (and jokes) of me and stick the needles in. Just make sure that you stick needles in my left shoulder and lower back... and left hamstring, and... (too many injuries to add). Ahhh, acupuncture. Thanks guys, I feel better already.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
Ron, I can sing that. What's the lyrics? And what key? D or E?


I love jousting with you guys. Just keep your visors down when I come a charging.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
BO: well chris, you kiss my a$$ and i might get you some help, how does that sound?


"Sounds perfect boss! I'll finger your love eye while I go down!"


Credit: survival

Don't forget wrongeye, he WAS the keynote speaker at your convention!
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:10pm PT
Already discussed to death Rong.

The employee knows the employer is now saving money at their expense. If he doesn't make an adjustment to salary or other benefit, they have the free market to find another employer.

In other words, the employee-employer market will make an adjustment back to an equilibrium. Of course this is way over your pay-grade.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:13pm PT
In case you missed it Rong:

In other words, the employee-employer market will make an adjustment back to an equilibrium. Of course this is way over your pay-grade.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
Already discussed to death. You seem to be not very well informed.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
Credit: nature
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
How many Electoral Votes are needed for the Presidency?
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
nooo what will happen is a few million MORE will enter the govt voucher system all but crippling doctors, hospitals and the govt debt. Meanwhile joe average will still be paying out the kazzoo if he wants any coverage at all.

There is not one person in Canada that works for a company that doesnt supply health care, just doesnt happen. A company like that just wouldnt survive, the folks that make it successful go somewhere else.

from my point of view these arguments you guys have are CRAZY as sh#t...you dont want health care...makes absolutely no sense???
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
I feel sorry for you guys, no health care is such a hard concept to understand. I cant even imagine not being able to walk into any medical establishment and not get immediate coverage for free, crazy stuff.

Blows my mind
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:52pm PT
It is very different for a Canadian company or organization to provide health care, than for a US equivalent. What's usually provided in Canada is that the employer pays half the employee's medical services premium (+ for the employee's family), which is probably less than $100/month. In addition, the company offers extended insurance - disability, some dental, some optical, possibly something toward prescriptions, perhaps peripheral services (physiotherapy, etc), and some bells and whistles if you're in hospital. Again, usually employer and employee pay half each.

In the US, employer and employee share between them the full cost of whatever insurance is provided, usually totalling in the hundreds of dollars a month.
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:57pm PT
Thanks, ya I would be surprised if I was paying 50$ a month though, but maybe if you include dental and physio and stuff. Surprising there is anyone who wouldnt want that.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
Ron, the tide is going against you buddy, swim hard.

But then, if Mittens gets elected, you will not have to swim hard. You will be drowning. Lap it up, so to speak. Your lungs will be filled with derision, your mind in a swirl of a whirlpool, your body sucked down in the abyss.


Hrr, just gives me the creeps to think of those things.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 1, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
Norton, regarding the Electoral College, our forefathers thought, at the time, it was a good thing. I suppose so.

But it has outlived its usefulness, if it ever had one.

Democracy. Doesn't that mean that everybody who votes should have a say. So if A gets the popular vote and B gets the Electoral College vote...

... B wins. So much for the popular vote. So much for Democracy.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 1, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
i'm sick and tired of OBAMA pissing on the constitution.

ur average democrat thinks he's done great for this country.

mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Nov 1, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
Hawkeye you strike me as someone who has been looking up at average his entire life and wondering how he will ever improve enough to become average.

If I am wrong how about you post up what you have excelled at...crickets...crickets...crickets
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 1, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
Oh, I think your "average Democrat" is feeling pretty damn good right now

their guy is going to win in an Electoral landslide, well over 300 votes

almost as much as the black guy beat McCain and Caribou Barbie in 08

And Romney will disappear from the national scene after next week, and get on with all the important decisions of his private life, like installing car elevators in his mansions

And the Republican party will once again wonder why they lost so bad

and decide it was because they did not go conservative enough

because they just don't get it
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 1, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
Pyro: i'm sick and tired of OBAMA pissing on the constitution.

Funny, a google 'site:supertop.com pyro constitution 200X' search didn't turn up any complaints from you about W pissing on the constitution from 2003 to 2008 - how is that possible?
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Nov 1, 2012 - 09:12pm PT
Dear Red States:

We're ticked off at your Neanderthal attitudes and politics and we've decided we're leaving.

We in New York intend to form our own country and we're taking the other Blue States with us.

In case you aren't aware that includes California, Hawaii, Oregon, Washington, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois and the rest of the Northeast.

We believe this split will be beneficial to the nation and especially to the people of the new country of The Enlightened States of America (E.S.A).

To sum up briefly:
You get Texas, Oklahoma and all the slave states.

We get stem cell research and the best beaches.

We get Andrew Cuomo and Elizabeth Warren. You get Bobby Jindal and Todd Akin.

We get the Statue of Liberty. You get OpryLand.

We get Intel and Microsoft. You get WorldCom.

We get Harvard. You get Ol' Miss.

We get 85 percent of America's venture capital and entrepreneurs.

You get Alabama.

We get two-thirds of the tax revenue. You get to make the red states pay their fair share.

Since our aggregate divorce rate is 22 percent lower than the Christian Coalition's, we get a bunch of happy families. You get a bunch of single moms.

With the Blue States in hand we will have firm control of 80% of the country's fresh water, more than 90% of the pineapple and lettuce, 92% of the nation's fresh fruit, 95% of America's quality wines (you can serve French wines at state dinners) 90% of all cheese, 90 percent of the high tech industry, most of the US low sulfur coal, all living redwoods, sequoias and condors, all the Ivy and Seven Sister schools plus Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Cal Tech and MIT.

With the Red States you will have to cope with 88% of all obese Americans and their projected health care costs, 92% of all US mosquitoes, nearly 100% of the tornadoes, 90% of the hurricanes, 99% of all Southern Baptists, virtually 100% of all televangelists, Rush Limbaugh, Bob Jones University, Clemson and the University of Georgia.

We get Hollywood and Yosemite, thank you.

38% of those in the Red states believe Jonah was actually swallowed by a whale, 62% believe life is sacred unless we're discussing the death penalty or gun laws, 44% say that evolution is only a theory, 53% that Saddam was involved in 9/11 and 61% of you crazy bastards believe you are people with higher morals then we lefties.

We're taking the good weed too. You can have that crap they grow in Mexico.

Sincerely,

Citizen of the Enlightened States of America




Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 2, 2012 - 06:00am PT
Dee ee, I don't think that I can add to your post. Brilliant.

But as Dr F wrote, the knuckle draggers just don't get it.

As much as I love my country, sometimes I think it might be a good idea to split it like you suggest.

Let the red-neck pansies have their lands, us open-minded people will have ours and live a better life than the Reds, who will be wallowing in the gutter.



EDIT

Pyro, so Obama has pissed on the Constitution, so say you. Could you give us some examples, and by the way, perhaps you can open your mind enough to also give examples where Dubya and his gang pissed on the Constitution. Oh, I forgot, you are blinkered.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 2, 2012 - 09:36am PT
Pyro said:
"i'm sick and tired of OBAMA pissing on the constitution."
To which Patrick replied:
Pyro, so Obama has pissed on the Constitution, so say you. Could you give us some examples, and by the way, perhaps you can open your mind enough to also give examples where Dubya and his gang pissed on the Constitution. Oh, I forgot, you are blinkered.
Read upthread Patrick, or just start here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/30/awlaki-killed-american-cl_n_988929.html Do you feel that teh murder of US Citizens without due process because of thought crime is acceptable? How about their kids sitting in the car next to them. Their death was no accident.

Anyone have the feeling that Romeny, with a belief in Jesus, will not be murdering American Citizens for thought crime? I don't. He's already said he supports and will continue the drone war that Obama has expanded and ramped up. Can you show where Congress, who are suppose to be the ones approving or disproving wars, has approved that action Patrick?


● Obama violated the Constitution with his “recess appointments” while the Senate was not in recess. It is up the Senate to decide when it is in recess, not the president. That distinction between executive and legislative authority is what the Separation of Powers doctrine is all about.

● Obama is an obvious participant and co-conspirator in Eric Holder’s approval and later cover-up of the illegal “Fast and Furious” gun-walking program. Unlike the Watergate case, people have actually died as a result of this illegal program.

● Obama undoubtedly has knowledge of and has approved Homeland Security Secretary Napolitano’s project to require Border Patrol management to falsify apprehension numbers on the southwest border. This is a clear violation of Article IV, Section 4 of the Constitution, which requires the federal government to protect the country against foreign invasion.

● The president’s open refusal to enforce the Defense of Marriage Act is a violation of Article III, Section 1 of the Constitution, which does not authorize the president to choose which laws to “faithfully execute.” The oath taken by a new president on Inauguration Day does not say, “… to defend the Constitution of the United States… to the best of my ability except when I disagree with it.”

● Obama’s HHS violated the First Amendment by requiring employers to cover contraceptives, abortifacients and sterilization in the health insurance they provide their employees, despite their religious and moral objections. He later shifted the mandate to the insurance companies, requiring all plans to cover such services, thinking Americans would not understand that the mandate still requires faith-based groups to subsidize services to which they have sincere religious and moral objections.

● The Obama administration violated the First Amendment when it refused a grant to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops for helping victims of human trafficking obtain food, clothing and access to medical care because of the Conference’s pro-life position. In fact, the Conference was refused the grant despite having received higher scores of effectiveness than the grant’s recipients.

● Obama told the Department of Justice not to defend the Defense of Marriage Act, which was passed by a bipartisan Congress. Instead, the DOJ argued against the valid law (which has been upheld by multiple courts), forcing the House of Representatives to hire outside counsel to defend the law. This gross abrogation of a president’s constitutional duty to defend and protect the laws of the land was unprecedented.

● Obama signed Dodd-Frank into law, which allows the government’s seizure of property, violating the Due Process Clause of the Constitution and creating administrative positions that are not vetted by the Senate as required by the Appointments Clause.

● When the Democrat-led Congress would not pass net neutrality, Obama’s Federal Communications Commission violated the Constitution by contravening Congress to restrict the freedom of Internet service providers to manage their network transmissions.

● When the Democrat-led Congress could not pass cap and trade, Obama’s EPA decided to auction greenhouse gas allowances, essentially imposing a tax on emissions, which, according to the Constitution, can only be done by Congress. You will also recall Congress having to act to halt the EPA’s ban on incandescent light bulbs.

● When the Democrat-led Congress did not pass the Employee Free Choice Act, Obama contravened Congress by pushing the NLRB to pass regulations that allowed for “ambush elections” and required employers to provide employee e-mail addresses and phone numbers to union organizers.

● When the Democrat-led Congress refused to pass the Dream Act, the Obama White House and DHS decided to implement a policy of granting illegal aliens stays of refusal, which is essentially amnesty by fiat. The Obama policy even gives local immigration officials the authority to dismiss deportation cases against illegal alien criminals convicted of violent crimes.

● Without the approval of Congress, as required by the Constitution, Obama ordered the U.S. military to attack Libya.

Before anyone gets their panties in a twist with the "YEAH BUT WHAT ABOUT BUSH"...riff: I agree, but note that Bush ain't President now and has no chance of being one. Check it out.

dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Nov 2, 2012 - 10:20am PT
It was not set up as a Democracy.
It was set up to be a Federal Republic. I know we have not been taught this, but it is the case. If people keep wanting to change the Constitution just come out and say it.
We should start a thread here about the Constitution and I bet we would "all" found out how ignorant we are as to what is really in it.

Has anybody posting here studied the Constitution. We seam to leave it up to Scholars and Politicians to do it for us, perhaps we should all require ourselves to do it instead of expecting someone else to tell us what is in it. Speaking for myself here as well.

The United States government is a federal republic set up by a Constitution adopted in 1787 by a Constitutional Convention; The federal government consists of three branches--executive, legislative, and judicial--which operate according to a system of checks and balances against each other and checks on their power set forth in the Constitution to protect the individual


Article IV, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution states:

“The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government”
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 2, 2012 - 11:09am PT
Wait Rong, I thought you said "Fast & Furious" WAS Obama's "Fast & Furious".

But then I suppose even you realized that was a lameass Bush job.

So eventually you may find that your Benghazigate BS in wrong and you are a hypocrite.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 2, 2012 - 11:29am PT
Rong again Rong. The 2009 budget was proposed and signed by Bush. It went into effect 4 months before Obama took office.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 2, 2012 - 11:32am PT


It's like admitting to everybody you can't do basic math
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Nov 2, 2012 - 11:50am PT
Credit: nature

Credit: nature
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 2, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
like installing car elevators in his mansions
if he (Romney)has that kinda money to spend then he's more than welcome!

obama had ur's and my money and he spent it on some auto-crap ford industry.

talk about pissing on the constitution.

p.s Dee i like what u wrote but we only get 85% venture cap's cant we get more than that..
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 2, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
Pyro, turn off AM talk radio and learn to read.
obama had ur's and my money and he spent it on some auto-crap ford industry.

talk about pissing on the constitution.

FORD? You stupid sack of excrement your ignorance unmasks you.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:01pm PT
Ford?

Ford did not receive one dollar of Federal money

but then we all knew that
WBraun

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:22pm PT
The continued presence of Al-Qaida

There's no such thing.

Al-Qaida was created by the intelligence agencies as black ops, disinfo and psych ops to mislead the public and world.

Anyone that listens to Rumsfeld is a total fool .....
Ricky

climber
Sometimes LA
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:25pm PT

I'm torn. What happens when a fool calls a fool a fool? Does it make either of them any less the fool?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
Dee ee,

How about we separate California, rather than the United States? The leftists can have greater LA and the Bayarrhea. I'll even throw in Orange County. Oh, and take Santa Cruz County, Please!

We conservatives can take the more sensible parts of the state -- Central Coast, San Diego County, and the part of the state covered by the U. S. District Court for the Eastern District of California.

Now you can impose whatever misguided regulations you want, tax yourselves as you see fit, and engage in social engineering to your heart's content. Just leaves us alone. We're tired of being your colonies, and of your taking our water, telling us how to farm and run our lives, and trying to keep us from our mountains.

John
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
Tuesday 11/6/2012 ....

Day of reckoning for all of us.....

11/7/2012 .... we all come back here, and mud sling.


DeDe.... the south tried that back in 1861. Didn't work out to well.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
Credit: Hawkeye



Credit: Hawkeye



Credit: Hawkeye


Credit: Hawkeye




Credit: Hawkeye
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
Rumsfeld? Really? You would quote a man who should be facing court in the Hague for war crimes and crimes against Humanity simply because it is the same Rovian message you have bought into lock, stock and barrel? Did you forget all the warnings Donny Dumbsfeld had about 9/11 under his watch?

Jebus Rong when was the last time you got laid? And not by the Oosik.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
sending people to Gitmo?
what an idiot,
just wait till Romney is elected, we will have a gitmo in Carson City for all the non-mormons that whine

will they still let you have internet access?
John M

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
http://news.yahoo.com/detailed-account-benghazi-attack-notes-cias-quick-response-020906681--abc-news-politics.html

you need to stand down Ron.. you are being led around by a ring in your nose
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
Rumsfield, Rumsfield. I've heard of that name before. It rings a bell...


Oh yes, that Rumsfield:








And Ron outs himself as a real bonehead with this line:

"im not the one voting for someone whos already PROVEN hes a liar..."


Whoa boy.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
John M,

no doubt there is some truth to the article, i am sure there is....now consider the timing....now consider the timeline and how long it took for the administration to clearly indicate that perhaps it was not a stupid movie but just so happens coincides with 9/11....

liberals cannot possibly be this blinded by stupidity can they as to believe that politics is not going on with this issue? really? i worry about people that sutpid.
John M

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
Actually Hawk.. it has more to do with not outing CIA assets. Something the GOP has a history of not caring about.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 2, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
.now consider the timing....now consider the timeline and how long it took for the administration

Yeah less than 24 hours to say it was an act of terrorism. what a slacker. He should have gone public as it was happening like Mittens did.

CockEye you are one pathetic hypocrite. And an anonymous troll. You bring an unpleasant stench to the forum.
John M

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
You are being led by a ring in your nose Ron. . Embassy employees are attacked often. It is a dangerous job. We don't go to war every time that they are. That is the significance of the number of embassy employees who died under Bush's watch.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:05pm PT
That's an impressive list of fabricated 'violations' of the constitution - if you buy those assertions you really are gullible.

[ Oh, and do note that F & F was just an op under "Project Gunrunner". Shipping guns to Mexico was another absolutely brilliant idea of the Bush team the Obama administration failed to curtail due to the illegal immigration hysteria on the right. ]
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
I already explained why - "Black Hawk Down" is why they didn't go in and the number of CIA personnel involved no doubt further contributed to the whole clusterf*#k as it wasn't a typical State installation. Again, you have an incredibly naive view of the world.
John M

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:20pm PT
Because Benghazi isn't Afghanistan. Using a gunship in a country that we aren't fighting a war in could be construed as an act of war.

I have no doubt that every year some Ambassador somewhere complains that there isn't enough security at his embassy. Sometimes those complaints are back channel, and some times they are public. And every year some embassy gets more security and another one gets less. And sometimes our security efforts fail. It happens every year. Which is why 43 embassy personnel died up Bush's watch. The thing that you need to understand is that the party that keeps wanting to reduce the security budget is the GOP. The other thing that you need to understand is that we can't always use military assets. Unless of course you want WW3. Which is a distinct possibility. We nearly entered it during the Bush admin and the middle east is still a hot bed. It probably will be as long as they have oil. Russia wants it. China wants it, and we want it. Do you risk starting WW3 every time embassy personnel are attacked? No.. you don't. So that means sometimes embassy personnel die.
John M

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
And if thats the case, then ALL foreign diplomats should evacuate TODAY!

Errr... I guess we should also pull all of our troops out of harms way too. And yes.. embassy personnel know that there job can be dangerous depending on what country they are in.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
This Republican, at least, feels strongly that we should not be politicizing the Benghazi issue. Unfortunately, both parties reverted to their public personae, and blamed the other for the tragedy. The more I find out about it, the more it sounds like the inevitable result of a government run by people. People are imperfect, and sometimes make mistakes. Dividing responsibility between the CIA and State makes mistakes more likely. End of story.

In fact, to its credit, this administration has, by and large, pursued the same foreign policy that its predecessors -- Republican and Democrat -- have done, just with different rhetoric. Frankly, I think the far left has a much greater beef with the Obama foreign policy (as opposed to its rhetoric) than do most Republicans.

We should be united in condemning this attack. Instead, we're backbiting and trying to score points by showing the "other side's" weakness. Here I thought we should be on the same side. Enough!

John
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
^^^^^
Hear, hear!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:31pm PT
Tell me again why anyone should vote for obama?


Because he is willing to give gays a fair shake.

Because he believes women can make their own healthcare choices.

Because he got us out of Iraq.

Because he is winding down Afghanistan.

Because he believes in climate change.

Because Osama is dead, and he made the call.

Because he saved the auto makers.

Because he believes in the importance of government.

Because he passed our first meaningful healthcare reform.

Because he's universes better than the alternative.

Because the alternative is Mitt Romney and right wing religious teabaggers.

Because he believes in tolerance and blacks and hispanics and asians.

Because he doesn't want to put American citizen muslims on hate lists because they're muslim.

Any more questions ?
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
I will never vote for a Muslim!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
Yeah and what about

your mean democrat?

your modal democrat?

your standardly deviational democrat?

Do these really exist, or are they just some fleeting imaginary numbers?



survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
Ive wanted us OUT of the ME and their OIL circle jerk.

Mitt Romney's gonna do that? Whoa, I missed that part.........
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
Again, incredibly naive. It's exactly the same naivety that has caused us grief in the Mideast again and again. It isn't Latin America and we don't control any aspect of and it's always a disaster when we attempt to act like we do.

Few political events in the region are not initiated by us and when large scale instabilities evolve such as those we are seeing from the 'Arab Spring' our hand is forced - we have to respond or risk being sidelined in world events in ways that further marginalize our role in the region.

Now I know that's a big concept for your simple world, but the reality is that it's a shifting landscape and no one - not us, not Russia, not China, and not even Iran - knows quite what an appropriate response for their interests looks like. Everyone is winging it.

About the only thing you can say for sure is that Bush administration's purge of Mideast analysts, native speakers, and HUMINT resources from our intelligence services is now absolutely killing us.
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
TK: Leftists tend to hate anything that has an image of being strong, good and successful. They hate America, they hate Western civilization, they hate white males, they hate rationality. The reasons that leftists give for hating the West, etc. clearly do not correspond with their real motives. They SAY they hate the West because it is warlike, imperialistic, sexist, ethnocentric and so forth, but where these same faults appear in socialist countries or in primitive cultures, the leftist finds excuses for them, or at best he GRUDGINGLY admits that they exist; whereas he ENTHUSIASTICALLY points out (and often greatly exaggerates) these faults where they appear in Western civilization. Thus it is clear that these faults are not the leftist's real motive for hating America and the West. He hates America and the West because they are strong and successful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
Your average republican:

Willard Romney?
Grover Norquist?


"We don't need someone who can think. We need someone with enough digits to hold a pen."
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:44pm PT
Farouk you sound as irrational as my brother.
Crawl back under your bridge anonymous troll.

Oh and...
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
He hates America and the West because they are strong and successful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, he "hates America and the West" because that's another desperate fantasy rightwing nutjobs tell themselves. They are afflicted by overwhelming feelings of persecution, are manipulated like so much political oragami, and as a whole can't be the brightest bulbs in the box given how often they vote against their own economic interests by simply waving flags in their faces.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
Section 1: Legislative power vested in Congress

sorry it was'nt ford it was the auto unions.

carry on! i think there should be a thread about the constitution.

i don't care whom u vote for just as long as ur a constitutionalist.. :)

Philo there are three things americans should have

SOAP BOX
BALLET BOX
AMMO BOX
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
TK: Words like "self-confidence," "self-reliance," "initiative", "enterprise," "optimism," etc. play little role in the liberal and leftist vocabulary. The leftist is anti-individualistic, pro-collectivist. He wants society to solve everyone's needs for them, take care of them. He is not the sort of person who has an inner sense of confidence in his own ability to solve his own problems and satisfy his own needs. The leftist is antagonistic to the concept of competition because, deep inside, he feels like a loser.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
Your reasoning, survival, leaves a bit to be desired. I could reply point-by-point, but I have neither the time, nor that ability to write in such a way as others would care to read. Nonetheless:

Because he is willing to give gays a fair shake. Agreed.

Because he believes women can make their own healthcare choices. So does Romney and the Republicans. The difference is that Obama wants others to pay for those choices, even if they oppose them.

Because he got us out of Iraq. The jury's still out on that, I'm afraid.

Because he is winding down Afghanistan.No evidence that Romney would not.

Because he believes in climate change.So do I, and, most likely, most other Republicans. The issue is what to do about it, and whether the unilateral decisions of the Obama EPA represent the proper balance between marginal cost and marginal benefit.

Because Osama is dead, and he made the call.Agreed, and he deserves a lot of credit for that.

Because he saved the auto makers.Disagree. HE paid his UAW allies at the expense of everyone else. What did he do, for example, to save Ford? Nothing. Chapter 11 without the governmental robbery of the secured debt probably would have given us a better automaker, but since that's a counter-factual, we'll never know.

Because he believes in the importance of government.So does every other person running for public office. The issue isn't the importance of government, the issue is the proper role and limits of government. He arrogates to himself a rather large amount of executive power that, IMHO exceeds that given in the Constitution.

Because he passed our first meaningful healthcare reform. I agree that it's meaningful, and that it's a change. I strongly disagree that it's an improvement, and it appears that a majority of Americans do, too.

Because he's universes better than the alternative. No comment needed.

Because the alternative is Mitt Romney and right wing religious teabaggers.See above.

Because he believes in tolerance and blacks and hispanics and asians.Are you saying that Romney does not believe in tolerance? More amazingly, do you say that Romney disbelieves in Blacks, Hispanics and Asians? As in he thinks the don't exist? Or do you mean that he disbelieves their ability to succeed? If anything, it's the Democrats that disbelieve in the ability of Blacks and Hispanics to succeed, because the Democrats' policies have a foundation of racist disbelief in the ability of those groups to succeed. The contention regarding Asians is even more absurd. The Democrats have perpetrated racial discrimination -- in the name of ending racial discrimination -- that had as one of its primary effects a strong anti-Asian outcome. That's nothing new for the Democrats. After all, FDR ordered the Japanese-Americans confined to domestic concentration camps. If the University of California Democrats had their way, there would be far fewer Asians enrolled in the UC system.

Because he doesn't want to put American citizen muslims on hate lists because they're muslim. Neither does Romney. He does, however, recognize that currently America's biggest terrorist threat comes from Muslim terrorists.

Any more questions ? None needed.

John
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
That's why most federal tax dollars go to support overwhelmingly republican states - because they're so damn manly and self-reliant.
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:51pm PT
TK: The leftist is not typically the kind of person whose feelings of inferiority make him a braggart, an egotist, a bully, a self-promoter, a ruthless competitor. This kind of person has not wholly lost faith in himself. He has a deficit in his sense of power and self-worth, but he can still conceive of himself as having the capacity to be strong, and his efforts to make himself strong produce his unpleasant behavior. But the leftist is too far gone for that. His feelings of inferiority are so ingrained that he cannot conceive of himself as individually strong and valuable. Hence the collectivism of the leftist. He can feel strong only as a member of a large organization or a mass movement with which he identifies himself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Notice the masochistic tendency of leftist tactics. Leftists protest by lying down in front of vehicles, they intentionally provoke police or racists to abuse them, etc. These tactics may often be effective, but many leftists use them not as a means to an end but because they PREFER masochistic tactics. Self-hatred is a leftist trait.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
This Republican, at least, feels strongly that we should not be politicizing the Benghazi issue. Unfortunately, both parties reverted to their public personae, and blamed the other for the tragedy. The more I find out about it, the more it sounds like the inevitable result of a government run by people. People are imperfect, and sometimes make mistakes. Dividing responsibility between the CIA and State makes mistakes more likely. End of story.

In fact, to its credit, this administration has, by and large, pursued the same foreign policy that its predecessors -- Republican and Democrat -- have done, just with different rhetoric. Frankly, I think the far left has a much greater beef with the Obama foreign policy (as opposed to its rhetoric) than do most Republicans.

We should be united in condemning this attack. Instead, we're backbiting and trying to score points by showing the "other side's" weakness. Here I thought we should be on the same side. Enough!

John


I kinda see where you're coming from, John. But I have to disagree!

4 people are DEAD! Wrap your head around that first. About 30 made it out o.k.

Was this a preventable attack/assault? Yes.

It wasn't like the Embassy assaults in Africa earlier. They had intel that people were scouting this position! They asked for help!

It isn't going too far to call BS on this op! This did not have to happen.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
Because he believes women can make their own healthcare choices. So does Romney and the Republicans. The difference is that Obama wants others to pay for those choices, even if they oppose them.

Well, that's complete bullsh#t. It's simply an exercise in equal rights - all employed women get the same baseline benefits regardless of their employer. End of story. There are cults and people all across the nation which do not believe in medical care of any kind - if they become employers are you going to speak out for their right to withhold all medical care?
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
TK: Many leftists have an intense identification with the problems of groups that have an image of being weak (women), defeated (American Indians), repellent (homosexuals), or otherwise inferior. The leftists themselves feel that these groups are inferior. They would never admit it to themselves that they have such feelings, but it is precisely because they do see these groups as inferior that they identify with their problems!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
Sorry JE, I'll just pop out the first couple. BTW that was a helluva response for someone that doesn't have the time!

Your reasoning too, leaves something to be desired.
*Because he believes women can make their own healthcare choices. So does Romney and the Republicans.
It's not just about who pays and you know it. The right wing has wanted to take away a woman's choice for safe and legal abortion ever since RoeVWade. Deny that?

*Because he got us out of Iraq. The jury's still out on that, I'm afraid.
Agreed, but he sure got us a helluva lot further out than George did.

*Because he is winding down Afghanistan.No evidence that Romney would not.
Except his comments about not committing to a timeline and showing the bad guys our hand.

*Because he believes in climate change.So do I, and, most likely, most other Republicans. The issue is what to do about it, and whether the unilateral decisions of the Obama EPA represent the proper balance between marginal cost and marginal benefit.
Well I don't buy what I hear from the right about it, how's that?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
FAROUK HATES GAYS AND MUSLIMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
Yeah, four people are dead - maybe the CIA shouldn't have been playing fast and loose with security. Oh and you'd hope that a CIA operation gathering intel on the current on-the-ground situation would have been way further out ahead of the situation to begin with. It wasn't State's failure so much as the CIA's and the fact that the CIA guys got blindsided so badly probably only heightened concerns of yet another "Black Hawk Down" fiasco and led to a lot of decision-making paralysis.

And'four people' are dead? Hey, four people die in Iraq and Afghanistan every week due to W's mind-addling, but most excellent Mideast adventure.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
CockEye you are one pathetic hypocrite. And an anonymous troll. You bring an unpleasant stench to the forum.

Credit: Hawkeye

philo, i know its dark in there but i guess it explains why you are also so full of sheet. you are what you eat you know.

by the way,

any pathetic loser who would bring out their family issues here with their own brother is really a piece of work....not something to be proud of at all you POS.
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
Dr. F
everything your little lame ass posts say is wrong, and pure propaganda
Pull your head out,

It's the stupidest sh#t ever posted
Obama just made up that sh#t, and you believe it, what an idiot

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
BOMBSHELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Farouk isn't even an American citizen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He's here illegally!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He's on the NO FLY list!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Doesn't even have a greencard, and is failing at his attempt to get the fake marriage thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He's trying to get an anchor baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
The Dems have been trying to Not politicise this tragedy,

wow, too much petyote for you Dr. F???

lets see, Hillary takes the blame what 24 hours befroe the debate and just yesterday an intelligence report comes out (no arm twisting there from the whitehouse) citing actual "facts" from the event.

yeah right, no politics from the whitehouse.

here is that turnip truck you fell out of......

Credit: Hawkeye
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:07pm PT
TK: Almost everyone will agree that we live in a deeply troubled society. One of the most widespread manifestations of the craziness of our world is leftism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
No one has still been able to tell me just how one goes about "declaring an end" to the Afghan war?

You do it the same way the Russians and good Catholics do it.
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
TK: If our society had no social problems at all, the leftists would have to INVENT problems in order to provide themselves with an excuse for making a fuss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
If you guys weren't so hilarious you'd be pathetic...or vise versa.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
Actually, we got a bill for three to four trillion dollars for Iraq and Afghanistan.
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:38pm PT
TK:Leftists may claim that their activism is motivated by compassion or by moral principle, and moral principle does play a role for the leftist of the oversocialized type. But compassion and moral principle cannot be the main motives for leftist activism. Hostility is too prominent a component of leftist behavior; so is the drive for power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:54pm PT
Credit: Hawkeye


Credit: Hawkeye


Credit: Hawkeye
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
If we were actually thinkng we would be more into South and Central america- you know worrying about those that actually connect to us.

We did the latin thing - Bush Sr's main focus as head of the CIA was latin america and murdering as many folks who opposed our corporate interests as possible - you remember, folks like whole seditious villages and especially all those uppity jesuit priests and nuns.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 2, 2012 - 04:26pm PT
wanna bet? Iran coming to a theater near you....Turkey and Syria too..


Uh, they're already in the US, bro!



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 04:33pm PT
But,, id rather see it go to solving our own issues FIRST and foremost.

The rightwing doesn't believe we have any issues. Hell, farouk thinks even acknowledging we may have issues is an act of self-loathing. That IS the problem and the FIRST issue conservatives should tackle.
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Nov 2, 2012 - 05:15pm PT
TK: Leftists: Helping black people is not their real goal. Instead, race problems serve as an excuse for them to express their own hostility and frustrated need for power. In doing so they actually harm black people, because the activists' hostile attitude toward the white majority tends to intensify race hatred!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 2, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
Hezbollah is here...in the US.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 2, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
A map purporting to forecast election results, and advertising "no tossups", clearly isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 2, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
It's the "I'm afraid of brown people" thread. Doesn't matter if the brown people are in the middle east or the white house.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 3, 2012 - 12:14am PT
Hey right whiners, suck on this:

photo not found
Missing photo ID#271814

Nate Silver, updated an hour ago.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 5, 2012 - 06:22am PT
OMG Wade, what is THAT?

So Dirt Claud says the US is not a democracy, but a Federal Republic.

Yes, it has been a while, but I have read the Constitution. And I am proud to say that the second person to sign the Declaration of Independence, Josiah Bartlett (not to be confused with Martin Sheen's character on the West Wing) was in my 'family tree' (as is Mark Twain). Josiah Bartlett, a physician representing New Hampshire at the Continental Congress.

And JE, it was not liberals that allowed the Turks to slaughter Armenians. It was the conservatives of the day that sat back.

You probably know this, but U of Nevada has an Armenian studies program (or did at one time), as does Fresno State.

And you can keep Orange County.

EDIT
NB It was one of my former climbing partners, David Yerian, who got me interested (back in the mid-1970s) in the Armenian situation.

And U o N at Reno has a Basque studies program. Interesting people the Basques are. Nobody knows where they came from. There are theories, but they are just that, theories. The Basque language is related to Swahili, Martian, you name it, but linguists cannot nail it down.

My interest? I was dating a gal here in Ireland whose father was a Spanish Basque and mother was a French Basque. Last I heard, she is teaching at a Basque school in Spain.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 5, 2012 - 07:47am PT
Basque language came from Neanderthal, I'm pretty certain
dirtbag

climber
Nov 5, 2012 - 09:28am PT
Good morning Right Wingers! Another day, another uptick for the President. This time, Forecasting Guru gives Governor Moneybags a 13.7% chance of winning.


photo not found
Missing photo ID#272295


Sorry righties, but it looks like time is about up to make the White House white again.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 5, 2012 - 09:34am PT
I just hope after the votes are projected and the tally is in that Willard and the Mitt-tites will finally embrace truth, accept the overwhelming weight of reality and concede graciously.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 5, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
Jaybro, you could be right, but I am certain that a lot of scholars would disagree with you. I have studied, a lot, the Basque language, and I do not think it was Neanderthal. Why would you think otherwise?

Yes pre-Eurpopean, proto-European? But Neanderthal? That is a stretch, but, considering the lack of a better answer. Perhaps. But you are really reaching where other scholars have gone and discounted. No, not Neanderthal, and if I were you, I would not say that to loudly in San Sebastian or Bilbao.

The natives may not take to kindly to your views.

EDIT

Ridiculous, I have studied as much of the language as many non-Basque people.

Neanderthal. Where in the world did you come up with that?

Jaybro, you are educated. Was it a tongue in cheek comment? Or do your seriously believe Neanderthal? Like I said, tread lightly in Bilbao if you believe Neanderthal.

I know Basque people, they are not Neanderthal or even closely related. Yes, it is a mystery where the people came from, but Neanderthal? Tread lightly in that part of the world.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 5, 2012 - 05:41pm PT
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Nov 5, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
"So Dirt Claud says the US is not a democracy, but a Federal Republic."

I said that?
I think the Constitution says that. But being how you believe conservatives are liars and cheats I can see why you would think I made that up.

Article IV, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution states:

“The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government”

This was not set up to be Democracy. The forefathers new that a democratic form of government would eventually fall. As they all have through out history.

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule,
where 51% of the people may take away
the rights of the other 49%." — Thomas Jefferson
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 5, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 5, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
The Basque people are interesting - there is a community of them in Bakersfield for some reason - haven't looked up why yet -

Riles,

Credit: Reilly


dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Nov 5, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
Man, those are some gorgeous places for sure. Would love to be able to climb it someday, but just to be there would be awesome.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
Excellent pics upthread!

By SHELDON G. ADELSON

"When members of the Democratic Party booed the inclusion of God and Jerusalem in their party platform this year, I thought of my parents.

They would have been astounded.

The immigrant family in which I grew up was, in the matter of politics, typical of the Jews of Boston in the 1930s and '40s. Of the two major parties, the Democrats were in those days the more supportive of Jewish causes.

Indeed, only liberal politicians campaigned in our underprivileged neighborhood. Boston's Republicans, insofar as we knew them, were remote, wealthy elites ("Boston Brahmins"), some of whose fancy country clubs didn't accept Jews.

It therefore went without saying that we were Democrats. Like most Jews around the country, being Democrat was part of our identity, as much a feature of our collective personality as our religion.

So why did I leave the party?

My critics nowadays like to claim it's because I got wealthy or because I didn't want to pay taxes or because of some other conservative caricature. No, the truth is the Democratic Party has changed in ways that no longer fit with someone of my upbringing.

One obvious example is the party's new attitude toward Israel. A sobering Gallup poll from last March asked: "Are your sympathies more with the Israelis or more with the Palestinians?" Barely 53% of Democrats chose Israel, the sole liberal democracy in the region. By contrast, an overwhelming 78% of Republicans sympathized with Israel.

Nowhere was this change in Democratic sympathies more evident than in the chilling reaction on the floor of the Democratic convention in September when the question of Israel's capital came up for a vote. Anyone who witnessed the delegates' angry screaming and fist-shaking could see that far more is going on in the Democratic Party than mere opposition to citing Jerusalem in their platform. There is now a visceral anti-Israel movement among rank-and-file Democrats, a disturbing development that my parents' generation would not have ignored.

Another troubling change is that Democrats seem to have moved away from the immigrant values of my old neighborhood—in particular, individual charity and neighborliness. After studying tax data from the IRS, the nonpartisan Chronicle of Philanthropy recently reported that states that vote Republican are now far more generous to charities than those voting Democratic. In 2008, the seven least-generous states all voted for President Obama. My father, who kept a charity box for the poor in our house, would have frowned on this fact about modern Democrats.

Democrats would reply that taxation and government services are better vehicles for helping the underprivileged. And, yes, government certainly has its role. But when you look at states where Democrats have enjoyed years of one-party dominance—California, Illinois, New York—you find that their liberal policies simply don't deliver on their promises of social justice.

Take, for example, President Obama's adopted home state. In October, a nonpartisan study of Illinois's finances by the State Budget Crisis Task Force offered painful evidence that liberal Illinois is suffering from abject economic, demographic and social decline. With the worst credit rating in the country, and with the second-biggest public debt per capita, the Prairie State "has been doing back flips on a high wire, without a net," according to the report.

Political scientist Walter Russell Mead summed up the sad results of these findings at The American Interest: "Illinois politicians, including the present president of the United States, have wrecked one of the country's potentially most prosperous and dynamic states, condemned millions of poor children to substandard education, failed to maintain vital infrastructure, choked business development and growth through unsustainable tax and regulatory policies—and still failed to appease the demands of the public sector unions and fee-seeking Wall Street crony capitalists who make billions off the state's distress."

At times, it seems almost as if President Obama wants to impose the failed Illinois model on the whole country. Each year of his presidency has produced unsustainable deficits, and he takes no responsibility for his spending. Worse still, unemployment has become chronic, and many Americans have given up on looking for work.

Whenever President Obama deplores the wealthy ("fat-cat bankers," "millionaires and billionaires," "at a certain point you've made enough money," and so on), it tells me that he has failed to learn the economic lessons of Illinois, and that he still doesn't understand the vital role entrepreneurs play in creating jobs in our society.

As a person who has been able to rise from poverty to affluence, and who has created jobs and work benefits for tens of thousands of families, I feel obligated to speak up and support the American ideals I grew up with—charity, self-reliance, accountability. These are the age-old virtues that help make our communities prosperous. Yet, sadly, the Democratic Party no longer seems to value them as it once did. That's why I switched parties, and why I'm now giving amply to Republicans.

Although I don't agree with every Republican position—I'm liberal on several social issues—there is enough common cause with the party for me to know I've made the right choice.

It's the choice that, I believe, my old immigrant Jewish neighbors would have made. They would not have let a few disagreements with Republicans void the importance of siding with the political party that better supports liberal democracies like Israel, the party that better exemplifies the spirit of charity, and the party with economic policies that would certainly be better for those Americans now looking for work.

The Democratic Party just isn't what it used to be."

Sarah Silvermans take on the richest guy in Nevada for some background if you do not know who he is. http://scissorsheldon.com/
QITNL

climber
Nov 5, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
Second shot is Temple Crag.

Credit: QITNL

Woot!
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 6, 2012 - 03:22am PT
Yep, I was thinking Temple Crag also. In the past, I have climbed in the Palisades a lot.


Dirt Claud, if I misinterpreted your post, apologies.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Nov 6, 2012 - 11:10am PT
No worries Pat, perhaps I'm just over reading stuff too.
Just wanted to make it clear that the Constitution said it, not me.
It would be good to start a thread on the Constitution to find out how much most of us "really" understand it. Me included of course.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 7, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
Your average democrat is ecstatic at the repudiation of republican obstructionism on display in Obama's dominating performance in the swing states.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 7, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
Suck it Righties--you've been spanked again.

Mitt Romney, spanked again!
Mitt Romney, spanked again!
Credit: dirtbag
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Nov 7, 2012 - 12:45pm PT
Your average democrat is ecstatic at the repudiation of republican obstructionism on display in Obama's dominating performance in the swing states.

Here's hoping that the far right realizes that obstructionism hurts the people.

Here in NH, it's almost sad that Charlie Bass lost. He was one of the last of his type. A moderate republican. Pro choice, pro environment.

Its a shame that the tea party has forced out the moderate republicans and conversely, the dems have forced out the blue dog democrats.

Those type of people are exactly who we need.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 7, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
The Basses are an eclectic crew by any measure. We used to party with them up at their lake compound when we lived in Francestown back in the mid-80s. Moderate Republicans aren't making a comeback anytime soon though and that's good for our party over the course of the next twenty years.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 8, 2012 - 05:48am PT
Dirt Claud, no prob, we all see things our own way at times.

I still think that the Electoral College should be given a kick into touch. It is an archaic "institution" IMO.

And I still think that the position of POTUS should be a one-term six-year deal.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 9, 2012 - 07:43am PT
I understand the idea behind the Electoral College, giving the smaller states a fair say, but it really should be about the popular vote. I believe a big rethink should be on the EC. It is not so much that I think that the ''fewer' should have an equal say than the 'greater', of course there must be some sort of balance. After all, as Dirt Claud pointed out, we are a Republic, a country made up of states.

The balance should focus on the individual states and the Federal Republic.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 9, 2012 - 09:07am PT
A down side of the electoral college is that the largest states--TX, NY, CA were ignored, except when campaigns needed $$$.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 9, 2012 - 09:25am PT
Suck it Righties--you've been spanked again.

While I'm relieved that Romney didn't make it to office, you have to admit - Obama signing an extension of the Patriot act, the NDAA, shutting down state medical Marijuana dispenseries that were legal (putting thousands of law-abiding citizens in jail for YEARS)... what the f*#k?!?


And when he ALMOST gets something useful done it gets killed by the senate (closing Gitmo, among hundreds of other things).


I'm happIER. Am I happy? F*#K no.







The election is over. I'm not trying to argue one side vs. another. I want to know if it is possible to have a conversation about what it is the President can actually do versus what he is doing, because he is doing some terrible things.... and NOT doing some pretty important ones.



And Mitt F*#king Romney was the spawn of satan and would have set our country back culturally and socially 20 years. Just in case you thought that was my 'angle.' I don't have one...
dirtbag

climber
Nov 9, 2012 - 09:45am PT
Good points GDavis.
gf

climber
Nov 9, 2012 - 10:43am PT
Cross post from another thread -but the economist (couchmaster this is a magazine that fiscally responsible people read-some dems, some repubs) pretty much nailed it:

The Democrats’ gains in the Senate stemmed largely from the Republicans choosing candidates of such tragicomic extremism that they might have been characters from a Tom Wolfe novel.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Nov 9, 2012 - 10:45am PT
they will post graphs comparing education to voting in attempts to paint one side as "uneducated". They will slander the opposition or any other opinions..

But that figure was initially presented by Glen Beck to indicate that universities are brain-washing people as liberal. That hardly sounds like coming together as one! The numbers are what the numbers are. Interpretations vary though. Some see some interpretations as divisive - others see them as a point of interest for other reasons.

Personally, I think the only thing that is divisive is the name calling and the absolutes (i.e., all democrats are....; all republicans are....). That is foolishness.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 9, 2012 - 10:54am PT
Non Sequitar
Non Sequitar
Credit: Fritz
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 9, 2012 - 11:07am PT
Ron complained
Now THAT ^^^^^^^ is really quite accurate,,ive been labelled exactly as such on the other politard thread.


Only when your posts are racist, lies or hateful. Then you cry about how everyone calls you bad names.


Ron continued
There are some posters on this forum that will do ALL they can to continue the DIVIDED states of america.



Thank goodness you are not one of those people!
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Nov 9, 2012 - 11:10am PT
Your average republican or conservative doesnt listen to Beck Limbaaagh or any of the other slingers

14 million people listen to Limbaugh.

Note the composition of this list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-listened-to_radio_programs#Popular_radio_shows_in_the_United_States

There are a helluva lot of Republicans listening to the "slingers."

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 9, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
Yep I do not understand why this has not been a bigger deal so far.

NDAA and the "PATRIOT" act are Fascist. Not in some tinfoil conspiracy whackjob way. It's the real deal.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 9, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
Joe- he's cracking about Illegal Iranian Nazi immigrant gangbangers from benghazi...and Compton invading the res with taxidermied drone cat copters.


Mono-Yes!!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 9, 2012 - 03:17pm PT
400+ posts to a thread about a type of buggy that's now rarely seen. Wow!
Credit: internetz
What's next, a thread about pennyfarthings?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 03:28pm PT
Bummer there isn't a forum somewhere that could be searched for Ron's outrage prior to 2008.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 9, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
Riley

There has been terrorism in the USA since the first days of the constitution and will continue forever.

Look up the history of terrorist acts.

It is not an excuse for the loss of civil liberties.

Infact it is spitting on the sacrifice of over 1 Million Americans. (if you count confederate soldiers)

Liberty or Death

froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
Certainly not me Ron. But I would remind you that the most vigorous and consistent opposition to abuses of executive power, no matter who is sitting in the Oval Office, comes from groups like the ACLU which I'm guessing you regard with contempt (correct me if I'm wrong). That is one area that I find genuine differences between those who identify as Democrats vs. those who identify as Republicans. When Bush was shoving through the Patriot act (not to mention the extralegal actions Bush and crew engaged in) there was nary an objection to it from the right. Indeed, anyone who questioned it was labeled a traitor by the right.

I think the left has a pretty good record of opposing things like this no matter who is pushing it.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
Maybe you missed the part where I said I opposed it ;-)

So let me be more explicit...

I oppose any legislation that subverts due process. I oppose the expansions in executive power that the last decade has brought. I oppose imprisonment without judicial review, indefinite detention and extralegal killing and have consistently. That is why I support groups like the ACLU and EFF.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 04:40pm PT
What about Montana, a state with gun laws in direct conflict with fed requirements? Is everyone there going to be labelled a " belligerent"?

Montanans have always been belligerent, In fact, the original Montanans - the Blackfeet and Crow were belligerent as hell and the whole Salishan Nation of tribes thought they were total bad asses.

I personally think we need "border protection" up there and ought to wall the whole state off.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
EFF seems well intended as does the ACLU yet it has become to politically entrenched imho.

That could be because they work solely on political issues.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
So Ron, then you'd be for closing gitmo, bringing them to the states, and letting the Uyghurs go? You do know about the Uyghurs, right? The muslims who weren't fighting us, but that we have jailed without a trail on behalf of the Chinese government.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 05:15pm PT
Ron,

The Bill of Rights covers everyone, not just US citizens (as do many international treaties we are signatory to).

Oh, and timely, the latest EFF newsletter just appeared in my inbox...


Dear Friend of Digital Freedom,

As 2012 comes to a close, I've been reflecting on the relentless series of campaigns, publications, and cases in which the dedicated lawyers, technologists, and activists of the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) have engaged in service of a better, freer digital future. With help from supporters like you, we've been able to accomplish so much.

The year started off perilously as we fought back a pair of dangerous Internet censorship bills (popularly known as SOPA and PIPA) backed by copyright maximalists. EFF played a critical role during the day-long website blackout protest by Google, Wikipedia, and others, as millions of Internet users were referred to EFF's website for an explanation of the dangers and an opportunity to take action. Nearly two million emails were sent through EFF's action center to let Congress know how you felt, and together we were able to successfully de-rail the legislation.


As the year progressed, EFF's legal team continued to fight against all sorts of threats to your freedom. We carried on with our battle against the U.S. government’s warrantless wiretapping program. We filed briefs against unauthorized government GPS location tracking and drone surveillance, bogus copyright and patent infringement lawsuits, and the overbroad seizure of data stored with third party providers. We fought for fair use and the rights of innovators and service providers. We promoted the use of open wireless networks and won renewal of your right to jailbreak your cell phone.


EFF's international and tech teams sought to protect activists, bloggers and journalists throughout the world who were being censored and arrested. We created guides and technology tools to help people protect themselves and their communications. Our browser plugin for Firefox and Chrome, HTTPS Everywhere, helped over 2.5 million users secure their communications from eavesdropping and other security threats.

Looking forward, however, there is still so much to be done. EFF is moving into a new building, where we'll be continuing some old fights and preparing for some new ones. The threats to freedom and innovation keep on coming, and EFF is ready to continue to fight for your rights.

But we can't continue do it without your help.

If you've already given to EFF this year, thank you for your support. If you haven't, or if you have the ability to give a little more, please consider making a donation today.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2012 - 05:26pm PT
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Supreme Court said Friday it will consider eliminating the government's chief weapon against racial discrimination at polling places since the 1960s.

What a coincidence! Nothing 'activist' about that whatsoever (which four justices could possibly have voted for that), is there. The assault on minorities continues - the right just doesn't get it. And on the heels of an election that saw more voting rights violations in recent memory.

They think this is going to help them, but in reality it's just sending the message to minorities that they aren't welcome and those minorities are going to respond by voting in ever stronger numbers in order to tell these guys to go f*#k themselves.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 9, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
This nation has faced Annihilation. Facing annihilation was it's birth pains.. A man said Give Me Liberty or Give me death.

A nation was born of the SUPERTOPO Motto

Yer gonna DIE!

I grew up knowing that at any moment the Warheads could bloom and Humans would die by the BILLIONS and if we were lucky we would pick ourselves up again....

IN THE STONE-AGE


And now this pathetic leadership wants me to fear Terrorists like Osama???

ARE YOU F*#KING KIDDING ME?

WTF are they gonna do.. get a nuke and blow up a million folks who ARE GONNAA DIE ANYWAY?????????


F*#K ALL THOSE WHO TAKE OUR FREEEEEEEEEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LIBERTY OR DEATH




mrtropy

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Nov 9, 2012 - 09:06pm PT
I am a Democrat and I vote.

Students and I
Students and I
Credit: mrtropy
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 9, 2012 - 09:11pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Freedom!

America









Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Nov 9, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
Canada the country is practically empty except for along the border
we got lots of animals, few humans ... we got our priorities straight
photo not found
Missing photo ID#273197
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 9, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
Malemute! Re your mention:

we got lots of animals, few humans ... we got our priorities straight


You folks are doing great. We are the fuked up nation!
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 10, 2012 - 10:50am PT
The 'Nuge is a f*#king pshycho but I absolutely approve of his lifestyle when it come to having a sustainable food source... for a freaky fukin dude, he has his priorities straight in hunting and game.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 10, 2012 - 11:06am PT

I know a taxidermist who had an HS helicopter land in his parking lot with a fully battle geared team to arrest him over two salted turkey skins from mexico. TRUE STORY. HOMELAND security at work.....


I call Bullsh#t, not by you, but by your taxi buddy.

I mean, does this sound even remotely credible?

Of course not.

Degaine

climber
Nov 10, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
FYI climbski2,

That photo of the mountains is not in the US but on the Italian side of the Mont Blanc Range, in the photo are the Noire de Peuterey, the Blanche de Peuterey, and in the wee way background you can make out the Matterhorn and Monte Rosa behind that.

Great photo and a fantastic place to climb.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 10, 2012 - 12:20pm PT
We want Plaid States and Polka Dot States.  I'm a Plaid Climber.
We want Plaid States and Polka Dot States. I'm a Plaid Climber.
Credit: Steven Walstead
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 10, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
Degaine

That photo of the mountains is not in the US but on the Italian side of the Mont Blanc Range

Yeah I realized that but I like Jon Griffiths photo so much i left it there anyway. Freedom
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Nov 10, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
Ha! Climbski2 posted a photo with the caption 'America!!!', and it was the Alps.

Strong work.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 10, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
same trick can be played on repukes using the language on the patriot act…..

not sure what this proves… oh, wait… you're a publicon reactionary… Now it makes sense that it is all pointless.

Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Nov 10, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
Interesting. I saw the photo and thought his point was about freedom, not necessarily where the mountain range was.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 10, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
Vive la liberte!
http://pacific-standard.blogspot.com/2011_03_27_archive.html
http://pacific-standard.blogspot.com/2011_03_27_archive.html
Credit: mouse from merced
FFFFFF
RRRRRR
EEEEEE
EEEEEE
DDDDDD
OOOOOO
MMMMMM
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 10, 2012 - 06:28pm PT
Karl Rove and his buddies spent many many millions on their superPac,
and got right next to nobody elected!
BWA HA HA hahahahahahahaaaaaa!!!!!!

Just yer average 'publicans.....
dirtbag

climber
Nov 10, 2012 - 06:59pm PT
Bushiit that its bulshiit....That HAPPENED. Pure FAKKT.

That story is as real as the jackalopes he is creating to fleece tourists.
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Nov 10, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
He got it on Fox News. It must be fair and balanced.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 10, 2012 - 09:17pm PT
Give it a rest Ron....you're boy, his party and his politics lost. America has changed....white boys have a say, of course, but it does appear to have been greatly diminished...ha, ha, ha!
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Nov 10, 2012 - 09:20pm PT
Easy Ron, we can see the froth on your mouth.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 10, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
QITNL

climber
Nov 10, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
Ron, your Hillary article was written on Oct 16. Today is Nov 10, if you haven't noticed.

Your bum must be getting a little sore with all the crap you've been pulling out of it lately. Why don't you give it a rest for a little while.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 10, 2012 - 10:23pm PT
Ron just can't let go of the bullshit lies he & his Party created in a pathetic attempt to put their slimebag into office.

Example: 'Hillary was thrown under the bus by Obama'.

You are so convinced this fallacy is true, that you've created Chapter II of this lie: that Hillary is stepping down from her SOS position because she's pissed off at Obama about Libya.

Nevermind the fact that Hillary announced she would not continue as SOS months before Libya.

Kool-aid. Stop the guzzling, Ron.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 10, 2012 - 10:31pm PT





donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado

Nov 10, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
Give it a rest Ron....you're boy, his party and his politics lost. America has changed....white boys have a say, of course, but it does appear to have been greatly diminished...ha, ha, ha!

WOW! THIS IS WRONG IN SO MANY WAYS!

Any respect I had for you as a climber just went out the window!
I thought you were a bigger man than this show of bigotry.
But I guess I really don't know you
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 10, 2012 - 10:40pm PT
your average democrat thought romney would go to war with Iran

Ron, completely reasonable assumption given Mitt's foreign policy advisors. Did you even bother to find out who they were? Same neocon pukes who got us into Iraq and who have been agitating for war with Iran for decades.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 10, 2012 - 10:47pm PT


The party of free stuff since 1829
dirtbag

climber
Nov 10, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
TGT, your people--conservatives--hung black people from trees.


They are your people.

Conservatives.

You'll have to put up with a black man in the white house for another 4 years.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
dirtbag

climber
Nov 10, 2012 - 11:01pm PT
What do I think about Faux News Bengahzi conspiracies?

































































Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 10, 2012 - 11:10pm PT
Well now


It appears that Ron is on one of his occasional----posting frenzies.

Go Ron!


It also appears that BLUEBLOCKR is perhaps a racist himself, after his post calling Donini a racist.

A slight bit of ST backtracking reveals:

zero photos for BLUEBLOCKR.

zero trip reports for BLUEBLOCKR.

Lots of posts on political theads for BLUEBLOCKR.


So------what do you think?

Is BLUEBLOCKR our one-time and still revered, hero Bridwell?
dirtbag

climber
Nov 10, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
No Ron. Read again what I wrote.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 10, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
Credit: dirtbag
dirtbag

climber
Nov 10, 2012 - 11:28pm PT
Again Ron, read the post(s). Neither post you commented about say what you think they said.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Nov 11, 2012 - 12:55am PT
No, Fritz. BlueBlocker is another guy...an actual Human guy. I know him.
Good guy, different sort. Rockmonkey.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 11, 2012 - 04:24am PT
I thought you were a bigger man than this show of bigotry.

Actually, pretty much only a bigot could consider what Jim posted as any form of bigotry.

You guys do keep it up, however. The more and longer you do just brings the day we have all three branches of government back in democratic hands again that much closer and god knows I'd prefer not to wait until 2024 for that day to come. As it is, you are never going to see the inside of the Whiteyhouse or another republican senate majority again in your lifetime with your current attitudes.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 11, 2012 - 10:34am PT
TGT, your people--conservatives--hung black people from trees.

No point in giving dirt a history lesson, but I'll try.

If by conservatives, you mean the Jeffersonian conservative republicans, that became modern Democrats versus the Hamiltonian liberal republicans that became the Whigs and then the Republican party you would be correct.

Conservative at the time meant that the forerunners of the Democrats idealized the classical patrician Roman form of republic complete with slaves.

If you look at the county by county electoral map the "cotton belt" is solidly blue.

It always has been. Republicans have never won them, even during the mythical "southern strategy."

Bull Connor still lives in the heart of Democratic Dixie.


dirtbag

climber
Nov 11, 2012 - 10:44am PT
What a crock of sh#t TGT. You are either a liar or ignorant of history. Which is it?

All the lynchers--your people--lynchers--are now republicans.

See Lyndon Johnson's push for the Voting Rights Act.

See Richard Nixon's Southern Strategy.

See Ronald Reagan's state's rights (dog whistling for "segregation") speech in 1980.

See Lee Atwater.



Atwater: As to the whole Southern strategy that Harry S. Dent, Sr. and others put together in 1968, opposition to the Voting Rights Act would have been a central part of keeping the South. Now [the new Southern Strategy of Ronald Reagan] doesn't have to do that. All you have to do to keep the South is for Reagan to run in place on the issues he's campaigned on since 1964 and that's fiscal conservatism, balancing the budget, cut taxes, you know, the whole cluster.

Questioner: But the fact is, isn't it, that Reagan does get to the Wallace voter and to the racist side of the Wallace voter by doing away with legal services, by cutting down on food stamps?

Atwater: You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger." By 1968 you can't say "nigger" — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Nigger, nigger."[6][7]


These are your people.


Most of the democrats remaining in the south are black.

Edit: and let's not forget the the architects of modern conservatism, Goldwater and Buckley and to some degree, Reagan, all supported segregation.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 11, 2012 - 10:51am PT
Please provide ONE (1) example of a Republican lynching someone.



I can come up with hundreds of examples for Democrats if you want to go there.


Only one party ever had an official terrorist wing, The KKK.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 11, 2012 - 10:55am PT
Are you really this obtuse?

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 11, 2012 - 10:59am PT
How bout that pre-planning for an attack on Iran.


You do realize that part of having a world class military means that they have plans in place for invading basically every country on the planet right?

Any time that conflict with a particular country gets any more likely, those plans start getting tweeked and upgraded.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 11, 2012 - 11:10am PT
And why did southern whites quit voting for Democrats in the 60s?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 11, 2012 - 11:24am PT
And why did southern whites quit voting for Democrats in the 60s?


They got an education and good jobs.

dirtbag

climber
Nov 11, 2012 - 11:40am PT
Cheeses & RIce Dirt and Doc complaining about "lynchings". why dont you go back a wee further, im sure theres a neanderthal repug that clubbed his lady over the head before dragging her into a cave.


It's called history, Ron, and it has nothing to do with guys creating jackalopes purporting to see black helicopters.

And btw, with respect to that article, is tea partyism a conservative movement or a liberal one?
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Nov 11, 2012 - 11:53am PT
to make such blanket and all encompassing statements isnt accurate

It's on par with using isolated incidents to prove your point, Ron.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Nov 11, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
The reality is, someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong.

Just because you feel that you are correct Ron, does not make it so.

The best thing you can do is to agree to disagree, rather than continually posting things that have been proven incorrect.

How's about you offer constructive thoughts about how to make things better for you, rather than focus on things that piss you off?

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 11, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
How's about you offer constructive thoughts about how to make things better for you, rather than focus on things that piss you off?


But, but but that's not the Limbaugh Dimflaw Way.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Nov 11, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
Ron, you are wrong in your conclusion that the Benghazi incident was a cover up.

Please address my request for answers to the things you gripe about.

And, saying that we should be out of the middle east (see how I typed that out?), is not an answer.

What should we do to make America a better place?

Also, it's spelled 'Secretary of State Clinton', not 'Billary'. Show some respect. Like her or not, show respect for our diplomats, you seem to respect Chris Stevens.

Respect our diplomats, otherwise you're undermining our national pride. Which we all feel.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 11, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
La Raza is the cartel?

They want to turn the western US into Mexico?

Wow. You've been looking around some funny places Ron.

http://www.nclr.org/
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 12, 2012 - 02:29am PT
"Lifelong dissent has more than acclimated me cheerfully to defeat. It
has made me suspicious of victory. I feel uneasy at the very idea of a
Movement. I see every insight degenerating into a dogma, and fresh
thoughts freezing into lifeless party line."
--Isador Feinstein Stone, I.F. Stone's Bi-Weekly (May 19, 1969)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 12, 2012 - 02:55am PT
Ron, dude, you're losing it.
QITNL

climber
Nov 12, 2012 - 03:13am PT
I.F. Stone - respect. I read those Bi-Weekly's when I was a little kid.

Here's his last one, they looked like this:

http://ifstone.org/weekly/IFStonesWeekly-1971dec01.pdf

BITD, when shooting off your mouth took some effort.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 12, 2012 - 09:18am PT
Anders, I was baffled at first but then...

4.
Also called democrat wagon. a high, lightweight, horse-drawn wagon, usually having two seats.

The best things on this thread? The pix of Temple Crag and indeed, the one of the 'crag' in Patagonia. But which has the better rock and which is more choss?

Ron, are you intent on becoming the new Fattrad or Lois (two people I like and get along with, but...) or...

...on a 'find search' of the thread, it tells me that Ron is more than 100 searches. Now let's see, and remember, I am not great at arithmetic of mathematics, but as of now 533 posts to this thread and Ron comes up over 100 times, but of course the find search will include posts that have the word Ron in it, but still... let me recheck with only posts Ron has posted, then I will do the maths.

At my count (but don't necessarily trust it as I am a liberal) Ron posted 133 times on this thread. Let's see 533 divided by 133 = OMG, some of us have too much time on our hands.

I can't believe I ate, oops, read the whole thing.

Is my point taken?
dirtbag

climber
Nov 12, 2012 - 09:29am PT
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v11/n475/a03.html
"
Hahahahaha, the stupider someone is, the stupider the things they believe

Any paranoid lunatic can find any paranoid lunacy they want on the internet

Only makes you look more delusional - and stupider.

LOL...the author is "Tyrus W. Cobb, Former Special Assistant to President Ronald Reagan." I guess he got tired of playing for the Detroit Tigers.

BTW, today I saw a bumpers sticker that said "Don't Re-Nig in 2012." Yeah, I'm sure he is an average Dem.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 12, 2012 - 09:44am PT
Ron, you have GOT to be shitting me.

Are you not reading the signs or hearing what the "protesters" are saying?
The first guys flipped a bird and walked by with a Mexican flag.

Sure those people had a right to assemble, same as the Westboro Baptist people with their "god hates fags" signs at military funerals.

"Go back to Mexico!" assumes that none of them are American citizens.
Or is it a heritage protest not a nationality protest?

See Ron, I don't automatically ally myself with a white person because they are white. I want to know something about their mind or heart.
I know many great Mexicans who have ZERO intention of taking over the western USA. I'm trying to speak reasonably to you, but you seem to jump at any anti-Latino conspiracy you can get your hands on.
Where did you get this hatred of Mexicans anyway?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 12, 2012 - 10:04am PT
Survival, where does hatred of Mexicans come from?

I just watched Bandolero!

Those darn Mexican bandidos tried raping Raquel Welch, knifed Dean Martin and shot Jimmy Stewart.

Bogie found out...

"Badges, to god-damned hell with badges! We have no badges. In fact, we don't need badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges, you god-damned cabrón and chinga tu madre!"

Grrr, just as bad as American Gangstas.

Or Nazis, or WW2 Japanese soldiers, the KKK or those goddamn Fenian bastards.

In fact, anybody like me from the Bay Area. Grrr, we are gurriers. Trash, lefties, spawn of Satan, you name it... and it doesn't matter if it East Bay like me, the City, North Bay, South Bay, we are all doomed to hell. (Um, not all, Bluering and a couple of other Supertopians will go to heaven after The Rapture). I wonder if they have toilets in Hell? A bar? McDonalds? A Starbucks?

Heck, give me LIMBO, I'll even take Purgatory.

(I am trying to rack up as many posts on this thread as Ron, so he doesn't feel lonely.)

EDIT

we are all doomed to hell

Or climbing at Mt Diablo or falling and being shredded like cheese at Pinnacles NM.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 12, 2012 - 10:15am PT
Ron, not another mystery. There are too many mysteries in life. ;-)
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 12, 2012 - 10:21am PT
Yeah, I noticed the bald heads and the gang signs.

I also notice how much you bring up Mexicans, as opposed to all other hate groups you mention.

Mexicans, illegal or otherwise are not worse than white racists or muslim extremists.
Ignorance and hatred know no color or national boundaries. That's what we should be fighting.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 12, 2012 - 11:03am PT
Ill bet you didnt know Denver has a Columbus day parade every year


Yes that is true in fact Colorado became the first state to observe an official Columbus Day in 1905.


that several other hate groups try to break up, year after year.

But this isn't true. As a proud Choctaw Ron should know that most Native Americans are not fond of Columbus Day in the least. There have been concerted efforts by a coalition of groups to curtail the annual parade but traditions die hard. There are protest parades as counterpoint but Denver does a good job of keeping the peace.

You WONT see that on ANY TV channel.

You won't because these are not "Hate Groups" and the Parades quite appropriately coexist.

By the way look up Colorado's history regarding two things.
1; look up the connection between Colorado and the KKK and in particular the involvement of Denver Police.
2; fast forward a generation or two and look into Denver's role in Martin Luther King Day and Parade.

And then let me tell you of the annual counter protests. Now those fux ARE hate groups.

Thank God that people can learn, grow and progress.
Your turn Ron.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 12, 2012 - 11:44am PT
Ron, your mystery is my misery... or is the other way around?


EDIT

Ronnie, over 14,000 posts since 2009, wow, not a Supertopo record, but...
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 12, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
TGT, regarding your 1800s drawings, you do realize that both the Democrat and Republican parties were far different then than as today. Nice try at parody though, but, it doesn't seem your forte.

(Am I getting closer to the number of Ron posts on this thread?)
Eddie

Trad climber
San Francisco
Nov 12, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
Whichever side you voted for, please vote for real reasons!

this video is very enlightening...(it happens to be about Romney fans..but that is not the point)

Highlight: 4:05 - 4:44

[youtube=nY0M7IdNl7U#!]
link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nY0M7IdNl7U#!


If I got spontaneously interviewed, I would look pretty silly, so I let a lot of these people off the hook. However...the rest of the people in this video made me laugh out loud, multiple times...and then start crying at the thought that this is real.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 13, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
Ron, firstly, it is not that difficult to count somebody's posts, and secondly I am just jousting with you. I thought you had thicker skin than that... and you probably do.

Am I strange?

People are strange when you're a stranger
Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted
Streets are uneven when you're down

When you're strange
Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange
No one remembers your name
When you're strange

Courtesy of Jim Morrison and The Doors.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 13, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 13, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
Well dooood, if YOU had mexican gang members tapping caps in your drive way- you would suddenly become quite concerned. If you have HS helis over head on a DAILY basis, your concern would again grow.

Ron, I've got no major rub with you personally. I like you in fact. But if you've got Mexican cartel caps getting tapped in your driveway and you've got Homeland Security over your house every day, it sounds like you need a new place to live.

But I must emphasize brother, that there is no La Raza conspiracy to take over the western USA. However, you do understand that they stole it from the natives before we stole it from them, right?

Re: the video posted above: The lady that says Obama's father was a Muslim and an atheist and a communist, all at the same time, is priceless!!

The dude at 7:30 that says Buddhists are trying to tell us what to do is ALSO PRICELESS!!!
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 13, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
...if YOU had mexican gang members tapping caps in your drive way...

That's why I moved somewhere else. The only worries I have now are keeping the deer from eating my flowers.

I can't tell you how nice it is to have that worry, and only that worry.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 14, 2012 - 11:53am PT
14,237 posts (as of a few minutes ago) in the relatively short time you've been here, Ron.

You are as prolific as fattrad or Lois. Some people find that a bit weird.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:01pm PT
Meanwhile,, over a hundred missles have hit in Israel and they are returning fire back to hammas and Syria.

Ron, not true. The majority of those missiles were intercepted by Iron Dome.
And what does this have to do with the average Democrat? This has been going on through administration after administration, repub and democrat.

You do know that the first peace treaties between Israel and Egypt were signed because of a Democrat, right?


SDEROT, Israel — Military sources have confirmed to GlobalPost that Israeli Defense Forces targeted and killed Ahmed Jabri, the head of Hamas’ military wing, in the Gaza Strip.

“Jabri was a senior Hamas operative who served in the upper echelon of Hamas’ command and was directly responsible for executing terror attacks against the State of Israel in the past number of years,” military sources said.

The killing of Jabri came a day after Hamas launched a barrage of more than 100 missiles into southern Israel, most of which were intercepted by the country’s Iron dome missile protection system. The attack also comes just two months before the scheduled national elections in Israel.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
14,238
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
Survival,, the govt HQ was attacked a few days ago in Libya by the militia. The militias now control libya.

Actually, the question was what Hamas launching missiles had to do with the average democrat.......
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
So the Libya mess means that it's Obama's fault that Hamas hates Israel?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
Dismal facts, like 332 to 206.........
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
"...an example of a non thinking democrat."

Not true. I just try to engage thoughtfully with those who are capable of having thoughtful dialogue, and actually learn something.

Unfortunately, there isn't much opportunity to do that in these polititard threads, so most of the time it's just useless ranting bantering. It's entertaining for a while...then it gets boring.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
Not true. I just try to engage thoughtfully with those who are capable of having thoughtful dialogue, and actually learn something.

Unfortunately, there isn't much opportunity to do that in these polititard threads, so most of the time it's just useless ranting bantering. It's entertaining for a while...then it gets boring.

I think this is largely a wound we've inflicted on each other. Last week there was a thread that had one thoughtful post after another, until certain posters started lobbing insults, and the targets responded in kind. Eventually, an allegation of LEB participation vaporized it. Heaven forbid that we permit any LEB-like participation! Not only did the thread disappear from the board, every post did, too.

It isn't easy to ignore insults or opportunities for cheap shots, but we're unlikely to get a meaningful discussion unless we show some self-restraint.

I'm sorry I haven't been inclined to enter the fray much in the past few weeks, Ron. I feel like I've abandoned you in the midst of battle, but when the overwhelming majority of the posters seem intent on bashing the non-Democrats without regard to any principles of dialogue, much less good advocacy, I don't see the point.

John
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 14, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
And this is the typical Repug:

TAMPA, Fla. (AP) — When news vans camped outside her stately home, a Florida socialite tied to the Gen. David Petraeus sex scandal fell back on her informal credentials as a social ambassador for Tampa society and top military brass: She asked police for diplomatic protection.

In the phone call to authorities, Jill Kelley, a party hostess and unofficial social liaison for leaders of the U.S. military's Central Command in Tampa, cited her status as an honorary consul general while complaining about news vans that had descended on her two-story brick home overlooking Tampa Bay.

"You know, I don't know if by any chance, because I'm an honorary consul general, so I have inviolability, so they should not be able to cross my property. I don't know if you want to get diplomatic protection involved as well," she told the 911 dispatcher Monday.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 14, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
"...the overwhelming majority of the posters seem intent on bashing the without regard to any principles of dialogue, much less good advocacy, I don't see the point."


Come on, John. This dynamic has been implicit to these threads from the start. The 'quality' (word used verrrrry loosely) of the dialogue varies only slightly over time, but more times than not is just bantering, nitpicking, gotchas, closed-minded ranting, interspersed with a few funny pictures or Locker's cameltoe. (Not that Locker has a cameltoe...you know what I mean.)

My observation of the tone of this thread (and the media & public) in the last coupla months has been that it became increasingly heated, each side sure that 'they got this'. Then came that cold slap of reality, and Republicans are once again in retreat, licking their wounds, angry as ever, scheming for another comeback, blaming the American public for abandoning morality in favor of their own selfish interests....

Yeah, that's surely a strategy for success.


Edit: 'I was on a radio talk show last night for a short time-"

Seriously? What channel? Is it archived somewhere?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 14, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
"But to think that somehow because the election is over so all in the past is done isnt thinking clearly."

Who's suggesting such a thing besides yourself?

We're just happy that there's a chance we will be moving FORWARD, instead of reverting to the failed, backward policies of the GOP.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 14, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
In other words,, Libya is 10 times worse than it was under Kadufus. Yet the current admin said it was a GREAT thing in taking out kadufus - and that it would 'free libya' ... It HASNT done anything but make libya worse.

In all your hyperventilating hysteria you just don't get it, do you?

The "Arab Spring" wasn't a US foreign policy initiative gone bad - it was a US foreign policy response to events the people of North Africa and the Mideast initiated. It's another chapter in the long evolution of a post-colonial world. Get it? They are not us and Walmart and 7-11 aren't moving into Benghazi anytime soon.

Why? BECAUSE THEY JUST HAD A REVOLUTION AGAINST THEIR GOVERNMENT and won. A primary and unavoidable result of that is now the newly formed government doesn't have a military or national police presence so militias have taken over. Duh. And hey, don't like the resulting tribal, sectarian, and regional instability and internecine jousting? Bummer dude - but then you were the same guys screeching at the top of your lungs about Lockerbie and those damn Gaddafis forever.

And, as Maddow said, "Benghazi was an attack on us; not a scandal by us" (oh, and where was your ranting during Iran-Contragate?).

You have reduced yourself to such a simplistic black and white worldview as to be completely childish. And, hey, Iraq and Afghanistan have been a colossal f*#k-up of epic, monumental and historic proportions compared to Libya and was a genuinely treasonous conspiracy. Why aren't you folks on the right utterly enraged by those wars given they're still going on and Americans are still dying in them?

Get a f*#king grip dude, you're devolving into complete irrelevance.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 14, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
Ron, you have been so rabidly fixated and perseverating about Libya in the last several weeks that it's impossible to see it as anything more than partisan political opportunism.

Of course Libya deserves investigation. But your reaction to it is waaaaaay out of proportion to its scale.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 14, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
The issue is you don't get it, you don't see the bigger picture anywhere and especially in North Africa and the Mideast. Nothing has been 'won' anywhere and all we did was stir up hornets nests across the region and are now furiously juggling as a result. Afghanistan? The northern warlords are reorganizing and rearming in the wake of our retreat. Why? And what does that mean?

Let me tell you. The Taliban came to power due to the abuses of the Warlords, when we leave it will be like we were never even there except now the Chinese own the place and both wars have benefited Iran enormously. In simpler words - a complete waste of time and geopolitical strategy failure of grand proportions with rippling effects across the Mideast. We spent 4-6 trillion of your dollars and the primary winners are Iran and China - so much so that you can almost make the case W, Cheney and Rumsfeld were Iranian or Chinese agents.

And that outcome is the direct price of the neocons trying to do an end run around the central issue of Palestinian / Israeli peace by instead f*#king around with fantasy 'dominos' elsewhere in Mideast rather than confronting the problem head on.

Don't like what you see in North Africa and the Mideast? Don't like an emboldened Iran? Don't like NDAA 2013 bill? Bummer dude - they are all outfalls and a direct result of the neocon strategy once they took over the Whitehouse as the Bush administration. We'll be cleaning up their mess for decades to come both over there and here at home.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 14, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
"He fed the Libya revolt" - that's right, because once these babies go off you are either involved or irrelevant and irrelevant is not something you want to be once your find yourself juggling furiously. There was zero option in our response. Zero. Again, it's not about Libya, or Syria, or Iran, it's about all of them together and Libya is just the ripples hitting the other side of the tub.

Messy, no doubt - welcome to the real world. We as Americans either stick our heads in the sands and are thereby blinded, or we start to get a grip on things and stay out in front of the sh#t storm the Bush administration has unleashed which is exactly what we are and should be doing. And we'll be playing this little nightmare out again and again as the ripples wash back and forth over the region for at least the next decade or two so hitch up your panties - we're in it for the long haul now.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 14, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
P.S. And it wasn't rocket science that 'democracy' in the Arab world might take on a religious tone we might not like, but that seems completely lost on the neocons who are still in disbelief the world isn't populated by middle-aged, protestant, dollar-driven white males. Have you ever perused this gem of a manifesto which launched the clusterf*#k?

http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

or this one:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

or:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/AttackIraq-Nov16,98.pdf
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 14, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
The policies were designed to aid the good when they fed the bad. Now we repeat it over and over- pretty much the definition of insanity.

We are NOT repeating it over and over in Libya, Syria, and most especially Iran. We are staying engage but cautious because at this point it's pretty damn hard to predict the future and there are no direct ways to intervene in what has been unleashed. Do you really think the events in Benghazi would have unfolded any differently under McCain? They wouldn't have - everything would be exactly as it today because - Obama or McCain - we are playing the hand dealt us by the Bush administration and the legacy of the neocon fantasy that all we needed to do was knock over one of those Mideast dominos and a whiteboy democracy would spread like wildfire.

The neocons were so utterly clueless it staggers the imagination and what's truly frightening is the remnants of their cadre were Romney's military and foreign policy advisers.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 15, 2012 - 06:13pm PT
You're reading and quoting the John Birch Society and wonder why people think you're more than a tad hysterical and out of touch with reality?
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 15, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
The New American | Home
http://www.thenewamerican.com/
Magazine of the John Birch Society, providing in-depth reporting on U.S. and worldwide issues and events. Includes weekly features, back issue archive, and ...

Worth paying attention to your sources Ron. And if your google searches keep turning up hits like that on the top, you might want to question what your search terms are too.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 15, 2012 - 08:39pm PT
Decimating the Military: Obama’s “Night of the Long Knives”?

Dude, you really expect something resembling discussion when you link to rubbish like that?

That article is a bunch of conjecture, rubbish assertions and quotes from right wing hacks.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 15, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
Not links like that one which are from people who make a living on hysteria and hype. No one is firing admirals and generals as part of a conspiracy, Benghazi or otherwise. You just seem to be among the ranks highly prone to conspiracy theories, not sure why they appeal to you. But in general the folks I see so afflicted have a high general identification with being a victim.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 15, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
Not to mention that the entire premise is fatally flawed. If Obama had dirt on military brass and wanted to use it to somehow influence the narrative of Benghazi, any leverage was lost when the story was made public.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 15, 2012 - 09:17pm PT
Ron, Kip Ward was under investigation way before Benghazi and sometimes events just create a circumstance where cleaning house and reorganizing is the appropriate response of the day.

WASHINGTON (AP) Aug 17, 5:50 PM (ET) - The four-star general who headed U.S. Africa Command used military vehicles to shuttle his wife on shopping trips and to a spa and billed the government for a refueling stop overnight in Bermuda, where the couple stayed in a $750 suite, a Defense Department investigation has found.

A 99-page report alleges excessive unauthorized spending and travel costs for Gen. William "Kip" Ward, including lengthy stays at lavish hotels for Ward, his wife and his staff members, and the use of five-vehicle motorcades when he traveled to Washington.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20120817/DA0NBPFO0.html

Keep in mind too that AFRICOM isn't exactly any general's idea of an ideal posting and it appears there may be issues with AFRICOM culture just as there are with CENTCOM culture. In fact, it seems like between Lackland, the Airforce Academy, and these commands there needs to be some command realignment.

But nothing whatsoever about these changes rises anywhere near the level of conspiracy.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 15, 2012 - 09:19pm PT
Ron, from your original post:

Many Generals and and Admiral have been demoted and or removed in the LAST MONTH! ?? Excuses from sexual email innuendos to spending on trips have been used.. This is unprecedented - that so many TOP level military officials have been removed or demoted. In the light of upcoming wars, one can only be left to wonder why you would remove those with experience.

The story you linked to made assertions about Petraeus among others (viz: that his ouster had something to do with a coverup about Benghazi). . If that story isn't "public" I don't know what would satisfy your criteria.

Think about it. Let's say you are an evil Muslim president that has dirt on the head of the CIA (forget for a moment what an unusual switch of events that would be) and wish to use that to influence his testimony so as to affect the narrative. Do you make the story public?
dirtbag

climber
Nov 15, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 18, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 18, 2012 - 12:27pm PT
Ron...just think ...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 18, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
What i want to hear is how it was to be in the situation room watching live as two brave badass Americans fought to their deaths? Did they have snacks and drinks brought in?

Oh, is that how you did it as a LEO? You seem to know.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 18, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
Ron, you are such an unpatriotic chimp.

You would have been the one who would have fought tooth and nail against our own revolution. You would have been petitioning the king to wipe out the colonials, every man woman and child, and repopulating with loyal patriots.

It is none of your G*ddamn business what goes on in other countries, as their citizens attempt to break free from various dictators. Your continuing attempt to subjugate people as a slavemaster is the ugliest part of America. You appear to think that the worst thing to happen in our history was giving up slavery. You just want the slaves to be muslim.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 18, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
I don't know what the big deal about Benghazi is that anyone would need to be screwed with over it? The whole Muslim world was fired up and protesting in many countries at our embassies, and some terrorists used the occasion to jump in and kill some people in one country. Of course in the fog of all that, preliminary information turned out to be wrong. Big deal. Happens virtually everytime. Bush seemed to Indicate 9-11 was done by Iraq when it first happened.

Even if they tried to cover up some aspects of it, that happens everytime too in military and foreign stuff in janky countries.

This whole general thing..so bunk.

.
to paraphrase Bill Maher on the Petraeus drama...

A Republican general has an affair with a Republican biographer who sends threatening emails to a Republican socialite who calls her Republican friend in the FBI who notifies Republican House Majority Leader Eric Cantor ....

Obama's fault.

Now I'm not saying there's not something wrong in all that, but that sort of wrong thing has been a regular part of our military and foreign policies for many, many years.. you only seem to care with the other party is in charge. Fine, if you want to reform the NDAA, and the stinking military industrial complex, I'm all for it. It's just not an Obama thing
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 18, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
I would ask how many boy scout groups youve taught,

NOW we know!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 18, 2012 - 01:40pm PT
Ron, NONE of that gives you a pass to tear down the US, to subjugate people as a slavemaster, nor any other anti-American BS that you advocate.

I couldn't care less how much of that Joseph McCarthy did.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 18, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
hhhmmmm lemme see,,, im against violent radical islamists,, gang bangers and a law (NDAA 2103) which was first written long ago by hitlers staff.

And that makes me somehow unpatriotic? Because im against socialism's that will bankrupt us in no time makes me unpatriotic?


Yes, you pink slime, when you state that the Congress of the United States is Hitler's Staff, you are unpatriotic scum.

Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Nov 18, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
limp wristed

This is devolving quickly....
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 18, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
"...indeed Bush pulled some heavy duty BS in engaging Iraq-and now Obama is doing the same. "


Just to entertain your kool-aid soaked mind for a minute...

You're drawing an equivalency between the Shrub/Neocon shenanigans that placed us squarely and purposely into a pointless war with the Obama Administration's supposed inadequate security efforts & cover-up attempts in Libya?

Those two are equivalent?

Really?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 18, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
"The NDAA language is VERY MUCH the same as Nazi Germany. That is what i said.."

Another weird equivalency.

And pretty slimy, at that.

You guys are pretty desperate these days.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 18, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
The NDAA language is VERY MUCH the same as Nazi Germany. That is what i said..


YOUR language is VERY MUCH like that of the KKK, the Nazi's, the Stalinists, all of the fascists of history.

What does that tell us about you?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 18, 2012 - 04:35pm PT
Now TELL ME what youve done for our country. You wanna call my patriotism out -fine. Im callin yours. GIVE ME YOUR LIST or your just another limp wristed malingerer...

You have this bizarre concept that, instead of doing things because you love your country, you are accumulating "get out free" cards that allow you to do anything TO your country.

You appear to be in the same category of Aldrich Ames and other traitors, who thought that their life of public service allowed them to be traitors, and it is just fine.

I couldn't care less about your list of accomplishment, while you trash your country. Stand by your words, don't hide behind your history.
OR

Trad climber
Nov 18, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
YOUR language is VERY MUCH like that of the KKK, the Nazi's, the Stalinists, all of the fascists of history.

What does that tell us about you?

Really? I may not agree with Ron all the time but that statement is absurd. TOTAL FAIL.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 18, 2012 - 06:55pm PT
Republicans - the party of hysteria and drama.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 18, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
edit: as for the NDAA ,, indeed it isnt just a dem or repub thing,,it IS a downright COMMUNISTIC thing.

Big difference between Communism and Fascism,

We've got the basis for Fascism in place but more subtle.

Sorta like Imperialism. Countries used to have to invade a country and dominate them in order to have an empire. now we do it with trade policies, the world bank, IMF, and other tricks. We make them keep their own slaves to us so we don't have to.

Same with Fascism (Tyrannic government and Corporations in cahoots) The Elite money and power rule us but keep us from even realizing that they've bought the system and the laws being passed are ready to use against us if we wake up and try to change things

PEace

karl
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 19, 2012 - 12:42am PT
OR, Ron likes to make sweeping generalizations, drawing similarities to things that are in no way related, like the Congress and Nazis. This is his approach, and I just get tired of it.

I thought he'd see how he liked the technique applied to him. Apparently, he feels that his diminishes his worth and contributions. Of course, that would not apply to anything or anyone that HE attacked in the same way.

Perhaps he might open his eyes.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Nov 20, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
How exactly can the government pay for all of the stuff that people want without raising their taxes? By borrowing of course.

What's worse, tax-and-spend liberals or borrow-and-spend conservatives?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 20, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
The average Republican has no idea how to work with others.


Once the poster child for the GOP, NJ governor Christie is now on the GOP sh#t list for working with Obama when his state became a disaster zone.


When will they learn that the world is made up of people, and many are not white men.

Ron, why do Republicans hate women??
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 20, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
THANKS RON FOR SPREADING SOME TRUTH!!!!!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 20, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
OK Ron, Why do you hate to help those in need?

Here's the bolded text from your post:

1.4. The developmental and environmental objectives of Agenda 21 will require a substantial flow of new and additional financial resources to developing countries, in order to cover the incremental costs for the actions they have to undertake to deal with global environmental problems and to accelerate sustainable development.



And if all the Republicans you know love women, they why are they still Republicans when the GOP hates women??
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 20, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
If you keep reading the mindless, inflammatory swill from the John Birch Society, Grover Norquist's blog, and the clueless crew at American 'Thinker' you are just going to remain an open sore pumped full of so many lies and distortions you'll end up rabidly machine-gun posting complete bullshit on a rock climbing blog. Oops, too late.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 20, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
Ron, that's because it's all mindless bullsh#t.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 20, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
Again, 95% of it is all mindless bullsh#t, and when you wrap 5% of legitimate concerns in an enormous clusterf*#k of raging bullshit you just end up like DT and your valid points don't end up getting due consideration.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 20, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
Ron, here's my take on U.N. Agenda 21: You couldn't fight for a more noble cause.

1.1. Humanity stands at a defining moment in history. We are confronted with a perpetuation of disparities between and within nations, a worsening of poverty, hunger, ill health and illiteracy, and the continuing deterioration of the ecosystems on which we depend for our well-being. However, integration of environment and development concerns and greater attention to them will lead to the fulfilment of basic needs, improved living standards for all, better protected and managed ecosystems and a safer, more prosperous future. No nation can achieve this on its own; but together we can - in a global partnership for sustainable development.

I understand you don't want to help others by actually paying for a better world ecosystem. However, consider that the GOP started two unfunded wars, and we're paying BILLION$, in not trillion$, on those wars.

Chew on that.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 20, 2012 - 06:52pm PT
But you guys do keep it up - the harder you dig in the more likely it is the Whiteyhouse and Senate will remain in democratic hands and we'll slowly chip away at the House over the next 12 years. In fact, all disaffected, white males suffering from feelings of persecution and a victim-complex should harden their radical right positions so the tide in the house turns that much faster.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 20, 2012 - 07:34pm PT
So STFU with the war shet.

Look out, The Chief is here with his ill manners.




Go away... you do not know the history of US involvement in the SE ASIA conflict HEDGE.


Now isn't that precious. The Chief telling somebody to "Go away..."
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 20, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
I'm all for dissing the asshats of both parties that got us into Vietnam, kept us in Vietnam, and that goes for the different asshats responsible for Iraq

We have to start prosecuting war crimes on the higher level people who lie and cheat to get us into war, or we just keep doing it

Peace

karl
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 20, 2012 - 08:13pm PT
The Democrats and Republicans share about equal responsibility for getting the USA into the Vietnamese conflict, and for bungling it and the eventual withdrawal. And most of the victims were Viet, Laotian and Cambodian civilians.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 20, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
Far from "your average", but certainly a sentiment represented by the "progressive" leadership.

dirtbag

climber
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:45am PT
Credit: dirtbag
dirtbag

climber
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:45am PT
Credit: dirtbag
dirtbag

climber
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:46am PT
Suck it, dumfukk rightwingers...you've been spanked.



Mitt Romney, spanked again!
Mitt Romney, spanked again!
Credit: dirtbag
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Nov 21, 2012 - 01:01am PT
Anyone that thinks anything different must of course be working at the local sewage plant and ingesting the incoming line of shet.


My dad works at the sewage plant. He tries not to ingest the raw product. I guess condoms look pretty blown out by the time they reach his end, although corn looks pretty much the same.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 21, 2012 - 11:38am PT
Your average Democrat will be especially thankful tomorrow.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:03pm PT
Far from "your average", but certainly a sentiment represented by the "progressive" leadership.

WHAT A BUNCH OF BULLSH#T!!!

That photo and your statement have nothing to do with each other, as#@&%e.

Ooooo, repugnicans would be all silent and respectful, but a dem wouldn't.

Go phuk yerself, LOSER!

I'd rather be progressive than regressive any day!
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:41pm PT
you're our Canary Ron. You'll be the first to go...
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
"Average Democrat" images: http://www.google.ca/search?q=average+democrat&hl=en&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=2BKtUM3TOYrPigLJl4D4Dw&ved=0CAQQ_AUoAA&biw=1280&bih=831
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
So Ron finally comes clean:

so here we are again,, more "policing" offered up by our govt..Theres wars and theres there is policing. Policing never has worked for anything..

The former LEO tells us the truth that his time in that job "never worked for anything", and that he was simply another one of those 47% that Romney talked about....that do nothing but sit around collecting welfare (oh, I mean their salary)

What guilt, what shame.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 21, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
Actually, the first "picture" of a "typical Democrat" is a caricature of Romney: http://www.google.ca/search?q=typical+democrat+pictures&hl=en&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=oRetULilJajtiQLplIDYDA&ved=0CAQQ_AUoAA&biw=1280&bih=831
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Nov 21, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
I like the tousled, post-bender look Romney has going on. Back to the humdrum of being the boss man and exporting jobs overseas for him.

I'm glad that clannish huckster got the nay no. It restores my faith in the American electorate a bit.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 21, 2012 - 01:40pm PT
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Nov 21, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
^^^^HAhahaahahahaa!!!! That's EXACTLY how I saw the slick-backed flip flopper of a salesman.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Nov 21, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
California,, pumping out terrorists..Teaching and training them..

That's not at all a kick in the balls to my Blue State Marine Corps brother who fought and got mentally screwed up over in Iraq. You've gone so far right, you're falling of the map, Ron!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 21, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
Ron, and here I thought you said NV was pumping out the most gang bangers these days....
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Nov 21, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
California is probably the only thing keeping our pathetic, service-based economy afloat. NV, servicing CA since 1864.

You can choose to engage in the conversation at whichever level you want, Ron. Continuing it at the level of rank divisiveness does not seem to move things forward. Just looks like bitter fruit from here. That poster is an example of propaganda at its worst. I would like you to send it to all the CA families who have lost soldiers if you stand behind it.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 21, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
At least California doesn't spread it's debt around. We pay out to the rest of the country and we've taken great steps to take care of our debt with Prop 30 and cuts.

Something the failed Schwarzenegger and repubs in assembly refused to do. Good riddance.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 21, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
I would like you to send it to all the CA families who have lost soldiers if you stand behind it.


Amen. Most of the guys I served with were actually blue staters, not that it means a helluva lot. Once your uniform is on you try to look after your brothers no matter where they're from.

I'm from a blue state and I served in a much more hard core place than the forest service Ron, just sayin'.

Donini too.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Nov 21, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
Y'all just got to turn off that Fox. Makes a person crazy.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Nov 21, 2012 - 02:17pm PT
Well you guys CERTAINLY dont like to be painted with a broad brush !

It doesnt feel very good DOES IT??

And all three of my brothers were inducted in CALI...So attempting to "broad brush" me in that light just "aint" gonna work..

Hey if you wanna piss on fallen soldiers and then take it back, it just shows where you're at in the game. Election's over, we need to move on instead of feeding into hate. Last I checked, this is one country, not warring States. It's time we act like one country again instead of looking out for just our own petty interests. That's just my take.

edit: The propaganda machine of hate on both sides has gone too far. My wife's grandparents have alienated themselves from her in favor of Fox News. She's a professional success, moral, beautiful woman, and they choose to judge her for not endorsing Fox News bs. It's very sad that hate mongers choose to make small differences matter more than the big picture. I hate to go there, but Hitler could take a lesson from those POS hate mongers. They'll ruin our country one day if we let them.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Nov 21, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
The Chief and I agreeing! This is a momentous occasion. We have set aside our Lance Armstrong differences to unify the country. Heh.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Nov 21, 2012 - 02:39pm PT
Hey, Ron, if you answer neener neener neener with neener neener neener, you are no better than what you feel belittled by. You're responding to every little jab like it's a personal attack on you. I know you're a good guy, don't get sucked in by crappy things you see on the internet, that's just the nature of discourse here.

There's now way to right every perceived wrong and snotty toned reply here, that's just what it is. You believe what you believe and somebody believes their own bs. So what? That's America, man.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Nov 21, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
You see what you see, Ron. And I said both sides do it, if ya read real close there. Being more of a lefty, I notice the right's jabs more. Being a righty, you notice the left's. So what? It's the same stuff.

You are asking for fair judgment in politics. That is an impossibility. You're looking for Jehovah riding on a unicorn come down the mount to pronounce once and for all who rises and who falls. It's just an everlasting struggle and will be long after we're gone. Do your bp a favor and turn that noise OFF for a week.
Jimmy Russells

climber
Nov 21, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
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RIGHT YOU'RE WRONG I'M RIGHT YOU'RE WRONG I'M RIGHT YOU'RE WRONG I'M RIGHT YOU'RE WRONG I'M RIGHT YOU'RE WRONG I'M RIGHT YOU'RE WRONG VI'M RIGHT YOU'RE WRONG
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 21, 2012 - 03:48pm PT
It's just indicative of the delusion which represents why we now have such a ridiculous lock on 2016 and 2020.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 21, 2012 - 06:34pm PT




Recent twitter screen shots
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 21, 2012 - 06:38pm PT
Ahh.....political rants from all sides. I'm an average democrat, I think a little gloating is in order.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 21, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
Now don't try to get me into political debates. I just got back from seven perfect days in Cochies Stronghold, climbing, eating great cuisine and basking in the glow of 11/7!
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
SLO, Ca
Nov 21, 2012 - 06:47pm PT
How did you like the stronghold? One of my favorite places. What did you do?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 21, 2012 - 06:51pm PT
Loved it! Beautiful place and great weather. Did End Game, Cragaholics Dream, Unknown 15 left of Peacemaker, and a bunch of shorter climbs like Tombstone Crack.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
SLO, Ca
Nov 21, 2012 - 06:56pm PT
Nice you got to climb on the east AND west side. Glad you had fun.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 22, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
Is that you fatrad?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 22, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
Turkey-day break.

Credit: Fritz
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 23, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
...1967 borders...

Which is exactly what should happen. And at this point, when Israel's charade in participating in peace talks is apparent to everyone, they should definitely just go ahead and declare statehood.

And Ron, you seem to have a real Disney, fairytale sense of what should be happening in the wake of revolutions against long entrenched despots. You were expecting something other than an extended period of complete chaos? For all intents and purposes, you sound like an drama queen Qaddafi and Assad supporter.

P.S. The UN is like the ultimate rabid wingnut litmus test. For that purpose alone, it's a veritable gleaming beacon on a hill. Consider extracting your head from John Birch's ass.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 23, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
And you're reading David Horowitz? For f*#k sake man - he's one of the neocons part and parcel responsible for everything you are completely hysterically bitching about!!!

And now you read his tripe and hanging on every word? WTF? What is you like about him? The 180 degree swings in his unswerving moral and political compass? The family values on display with his fourth wife? Or maybe it's his belated disavowal of the neocon domino theory which - let's give'em some credit - was at least partially right, even if tipping that first domino plunged the region into ever spreading chaos and instability instead of a republican, god-given, suburban-whiteboy democracy.

Jesus dude, you really need to think this sh#t through better as your abject hysteria is essentially rendering you blind.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 23, 2012 - 05:43pm PT
These links you posted ARE David Horowitz:

http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/is-obama-selling-out-the-king-of-jordan-to-the-muslim-brotherhood/

http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/biden-admits-obama-is-arming-muslim-brotherhood-to-take-over-syria/

You really need to vet your sources.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 23, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
So now you're telling me I need to read David Horowitz. Hey, trust me, the very shitstorm your complaining about is exactly because guys like you read David Horowitz. And now you don't like the results?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 23, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
Those are articles you posted up, not me. Yes, David Greenfield wrote them but they are up on David Horowitz's Frontpage blog for some very specific reasons which you just aren't getting. And those reasons are exactly why and how the Mideast ended up in the very shitstorm you are now so utterly hysterical about.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 23, 2012 - 06:55pm PT
The brotherhood is simply taking advantage of the situation David Horowitz and the neocons created. The very policies you continually espouse ARE the reason the brotherhood is now in a commanding position - you're like a nightmarish self-referencing and self-fulfilling prophecy. Sure, keep creating situations you can then leap on stage and be hysterical about. The past? The one you're so intent on repeating? Dude, your rearview mirror must have off a decade ago. And you don't like the way the dominoes fell? Bummer, man, real bummer.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 23, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
He created the Libyan chaos also.

Obama DID NOT 'create' the Libyan chaos in any way shape or form. Once again for the tenth time, we responded to native events inside Libya because to not do so renders us irrelevant. We will now be responding to events across the region as the dominoes continue to fall and that's the hand Obama was dealt by the neocons.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 23, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
Ron, your posts on the Middle East -- and I say this sincerely, not trying to be a dick -- seem to be lacking an understanding of historical context. Might I recommend Fromkin's A Peace to End All Peace. It's not perfect but it's probably the best single volume work on the topic and is a good read to boot. Also, while the time period covered may seem like ancient history, I think you'll be surprised at how relevant it is to current conflicts.

Cheers,

-S
Silver

Gym climber
Nov 23, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
Dr F you are such a dick that even those of us who know you might be correct in some of your views on issues would never agree with you on a forum just so no one thinks were a bigot and a dick like you.

Think of positive ways to encourage those who might see things differently to see some of what your seeing in a positive way.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 23, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
It's all Obomers fault.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 29, 2012 - 0