Stupid Questions about Aid Climbing

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crunch

Social climber
CO
Oct 26, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
Yesterday I measured at 14.5% body fat ya geezer!

Wow Ron, getting those teeth removed can make that much difference? I gotta find me a dentist who can do that.....
Jumpingfish

Social climber
Oct 26, 2012 - 05:11pm PT
Good read...I almost want to climb something.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Oct 26, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
The following were placed with a rawl drill and chisel tip bit.

1/4" x 1" button head - 4:37 sec

5/16ths x 1/2" embedded length machine head rivet - <2min

Who in the hell was taking 10, 20 or even 30 min per bolt?


Oh and just try drilling a off angle ladder, Ie...right hander drilling up and left....

See how far the spacing is then....
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 05:34pm PT
1/4" x 1" button head - 4:37 sec

5/16ths x 1/2" embedded length machine head rivet - <2min

Dude! Mucci! This thread is supposed to be for noobs to ask questions! You know how many questions I have for you after reading that? !

Let's start from 'what the hell is a button head?!' Is that those cheap little things you put a rivet on?

machine head rivet

don't even know where to start here...
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
http://www.fishproducts.com/pics/rivethanger.jpeg

is that a rivet on a buttonhead? : /
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Oct 26, 2012 - 05:38pm PT
I've met robbins and yes he's a shorty but must have been f*#k'n tall when he placed those 1/2ass bolt ladder's on the t-sac. the prow is a short little bad ass route.
get on it!
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 05:47pm PT
button heads are a type of bolt (not a rivet) with a rounded unfeatured head

Yes. So you put a rivet on a button head, correct? (that was my question)
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Oct 26, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
“5 minute 1/4" bolts??? using a hammer

That, I have never seen”

I’ve placed 1/4” x 1 1/2” buttonheads (not rivets…) while drilling on lead from a stance in Tuolumne in about 2.5 minutes. Not such a big deal if you’ve got your drilling system down and aren’t swinging a tack hammer. Being a little gripped helps too. But that’s not aid climbing…

Not sure what kind of bits Robbins was using. Anyone know?

From another post in this thread:

“It still baffles me how someone could stand in that position for 20 to 30 minutes while they drilled a bolt.”


Power drills suck.
Gene

climber
Oct 26, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
On the Prow, RR had a secret weapon - Glen Denny - which explains the distance between bolts.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Oct 26, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
Hey crunch the teeth weren't THAT fat.
Was it the bone graft?

I have sometimes used a quickie on lead and then re-drilled it and sunk a good one with a top rope, but, for example, those ladders on Prodigal are all "lead" spacing.
With good technique ample spacing is easy enough, or you can go with twin aiders and fifi hooks and pulling against your own pushing and the smug assurance that you are "traditional".

I know which is more efficient for me.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Oct 26, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
those guys simply knew how to get into their top-steps and SUFFER!

1+
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Oct 26, 2012 - 06:27pm PT
I'm 5'9" and had no problems with the reach on the bolts on the Prow with second steps. WTF?

The only exception was a head that blew on P5. I had to make a stiff draw to reach past the gummed up head location to the next bolt.

Sack up man.
Plaidman

Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
Oct 26, 2012 - 06:29pm PT
Moof you coming out to Beacon tomorrow?
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 06:41pm PT

Sack up man.

Is that directed at me? Would love to hear it in real life so I could knock some of your teeth out.
Did I imply I was afraid of a bolt ladder? My post is to find out how do FAists keep it so well spaced, since some (like me) do not find it that easy to clip the bolts without a huge reach (I would not be able to hammer sh#t while reaching like that). Not scared, curious.
j-tree

Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
Oct 26, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
Plaidman

Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
Oct 26, 2012 - 06:47pm PT
^^^^^That's what I thought!
can't say

Social climber
Pasadena CA
Oct 26, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
Gene for the win!!

Denny is/was 6'5" if I remember correctly.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 26, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
Vitya, my son, you know how it is here; the Illuminati aren't gonna give up
their arcane secrets without spitting on you a little, especially if you're sincere.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Oct 26, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
Vitaliy M.,

In a basic sense, bolts have hangers and rivets do not. Rivets require either a rivet hanger (cable loop) or a keyhole hanger (like a bolt hanger but with a slot to enable it to be slid on and off of a rivet). Keyhole hangers are usually stronger than cable rivet hangers and once clipped, can’t come off of a rivet (i.e. RP keyhole hanger and 5/16” machine-head rivet combo).


Hopefully this will help.


Bolts and Rivets for Granite




1.) 1/4” x 1 1/2” split-shank button-head bolt (zinc-plated carbon steel, non-stainless). Button-heads can be placed as rivets as well, but the use of a couple of 5/16” washers on the button-head helps to keep both a cable rivet hanger or a keyhole hanger from coming off of the button-head.

2.) 1/4” x 1 1/4” split-shank button-head bolt (zinc-plated carbon steel, non-stainless). This is a “shorty” button-head bolt. They can be used as a rivet, with or without a washer, but without a washer it would be best to place a cinch-type cable rivet hanger on it to ensure that the rivet stays clipped to the rope. Some climbers use these “shorty” button-heads for drilling on lead while free climbing, but in my opinion, you might as well just place the longer (1 1/2”) version.

3.) Long 5/16” machine-head rivet (grade 5, zinc-plated carbon steel, non-stainless). This rivet is longer than a ‘standard’ length rivet and might be used at a belay, or for a more solid rivet, rather than on a rivet ladder.

4.) 5/16” machine-head rivet (grade 5, zinc-plated carbon steel, non-stainless). This is a ‘standard’ length rivet for use on a rivet ladder or to connect features across blank sections of rock.


Machine-head rivets have an advantage over button-heads in that they require a shallower hole (less drill time), they work great with RP-style keyhole hangers (hanger can’t come off of machine-head once hanger is clipped with biner), and they are generally stronger than a button-head if placed properly.

The downside is that they are not stainless (stainless is too soft for use as a machine-head rivet) and they are very difficult to cleanly remove in order to reuse the original hole when due for replacement. The outer portion of the hole will usually crater when trying to pull a well-placed machine-head. In this sense, 1/4” button-heads are better for use as a rivet because they can be pulled cleanly in order to reuse the original hole during replacement.


5.) 1/4” x 1 1/2” button-head bolt with stainless 5/16” SMC hanger. This is my favorite quarter-inch combo for stance drilling on lead. Once tapped through the 5/16” hole, the button-head won’t fall out of the hanger and you can clip it to your harness, etc. for quick access when stance drilling.


All of the above bolts and rivets (1. - 5.) work on the basis of compression; that is, they are larger in diameter than the hole and are forced into the hole with a hammer.


6.) 3/8” x 2 1/4” stainless 5-piece bolt with stainless 3/8” Metolius hanger. This size bolt is the modern standard for granite, both for free climbs as well as for belays/anchors on walls. This is the bolt that the ASCA uses for bolt replacement in hard rock (granite). It is tapped into the hole and then a wrench is used to tighten the bolt, which draws the cone (end piece on bolt) into the sleeve, thus expanding the sleeve to ‘lock’ the bolt in the hole.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2012 - 12:25am PT
Minerals, wow, thank you for posting such a detailed answer. It does help a lot. For some reason I thought cable rivet hangers were called 'rivets.' I did not realize that 'rivet' is a type of a smaller bolt so to say. Thank you for clarifying.
Is there a book or a web site where I can research these things? I read "Big Wall Climbing: Elite Technique" a while ago, but thought it was mostly an overview of the subject and very general...
Messages 41 - 60 of total 143 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
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