Stupid Questions about Aid Climbing

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j-tree

Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
Oct 29, 2012 - 10:49pm PT
T Moses hangars are the difference between looking ahead without worry and looking down with worry for me.

 - -

Crickets over at the Bigwall board.

Dude, seriously. I check at least twice a day. Just don't have anything to post in my life right now so... chirp chirp chirp.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:12pm PT
Shhh, j-tree.....I'm trying to inspire(guilt?) some of the folk to actually post something.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
Chief, you must be referring to 5/16” machine-heads, which have been the standard size for grade 5 machine-head rivets for years. I’ve placed tons of the 5/16” size and they work great, as I mentioned earlier. The 3/8” machine-heads is what I was questioning.

But again, the problem with machine-heads is that they are difficult to cleanly remove in order to reuse the original hole for replacement. They’re not stainless and they’re not going to last forever. Better to be able to reuse the original hole than continue to drill new holes (i.e. use 1/4” button-heads…)

Using wired nuts for rivet hangers limits your reach because they are a lot longer than a standard cable rivet hanger or a keyhole hanger. Keyhole hangers work the best in this sense, and they are stronger and more durable than wires/cable.

Mucci…
http://mosesclimbing.com/rivet-hangers/

I prefer the RP keyhole hanger design because the biner is oriented parallel to the rock, rather than perpendicular to the rock. This can be preferable when using a keyhole hanger at a belay when you want to clip multiple biners to the main keyhole biner.

PFH also makes/made a keyhole hanger that orients the biner perpendicular to the rock. Another potential problem with this type of design is that to prevent leverage on the rivet, the right shape/size biner must be used. I have some PFH keyhole hangers but haven’t used them much although Mike and Gabe were complaining about the design a while back after a fall on Aurora where a rivet pulled. With the RP design, leverage on the rivet is minimized by keeping the biner parallel and flush with the rock.


RP keyhole hanger on the left, PFH keyhole hanger on the right:




CRICKETS!!!!!

: )

Captain...or Skully

climber
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
Godammit, Mineral Boy.....;-)
I'm workin' up a drunken rant....on a Monday, that could take a while.







Please Stand By.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:55pm PT
Brief question about aid: What's it called if Mark Hudon sends a message from the middle of an El Cap route?
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
I never place that stuff...sandstone and all ..but for granite...seems way mo betta with a hanger.

But I'm easily scared.

Nice pics Bryan.

YMMV
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:06am PT
used all of those hangers minerals, and tend to go with a small modified D when clipping in for the reasons you mentioned above.

I have SS rivets and prefer them in certain placements where the stone is ultra hard.

Of course how you prep your rivet on the wheel is going to determine how it's placed.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:13am PT
Ultra hard?


photo not found
Missing photo ID#270111


I MISS EL CAP!
Grippa

Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:18am PT
Brief question about aid: What's it called if Mark Hudon sends a message from the middle of an El Cap route?

It's called "Sending" a text message Mouse. Sending is something Mark familiar with..haha!
Captain...or Skully

climber
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:23am PT
All these "Wall Climbers" inhabiting the Spew Board?



HA!
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:36am PT
“Godammit, Mineral Boy.....;-)”

Do they allow free climbers to spew over there…? I spend way too much time here as it is.

Let’s hear your drunken rant! Only had two Green Labels left so had to throw some Cobras from my Tuolumne-late-season-stash into the freezer to try to keep up!

Mucci, have the SS machine-heads been working ok for you?

Hey Skully, tell ‘em about those stainless rivets on Tribal… You know the ones… : )


“Of course how you prep your rivet on the wheel is going to determine how it's placed.”

Definitely. Depends on the rock too. Sometime you don’t even need to clean them up on a grinder. The machine-heads with the un-threaded section next to the hex head don’t come in a short length so you have to cut them to the preferred length with bolt cutters. In some cases, like on the S. Face of HD, they went in great without any grinding after cutting them down to length.


Jeremy, have you modified Spectres, etc. on a grinder? I made a few different versions of ‘em that worked well in that mud. Also modified some of the Pika ice pitons too by putting a knifeblade taper on ‘em with a grinder. What were those things called…? Arkee? I forget, and mine are in storage. Can’t find any with a Google image search. Anyways, killer little modified piece. But not to worry, the #3 Tomahawks are on the way and you will be psyched!

Captain...or Skully

climber
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:40am PT
Hey Skully, tell ‘em about those stainless rivets on Tribal… You know the ones… : )

You mean the ones I pulled out accidentally with my fingers, & quickly put back? Yeesh. They Still held body weight. I checked. Once, anyway.

I may not get drunk enough to rant, this night....It's comin', though.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:48am PT
Chief, you must be referring to 5/16” machine-heads, which have been the standard size for grade 5 machine-head rivets for years. I’ve placed tons of the 5/16” size and they work great, as I mentioned earlier. The 3/8” machine-heads is what I was questioning.

I use the 3/8" X 1" if I know I will be running out the section above me with narly dime size heading for at least 20-30' or more.

The standard 5/16" X 3/4" I utilize in between 3-5 bathook moves.

Does it make a difference? Well, all I know is they will hold a 15-20 footer.

As far as SS also making a difference, well, in the wallet maybe.

Hope that clarifies things...



Jeremy: Beaking like that was the norm in the Towers and on some of the narly River Road classics. "Artist Tears", some stuff in Arches/Kane Creek and Long Canyon require'd it BITD as you well know. Love the old pound in the series of 10 to 15 Beak days of the Utah Desert
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:52am PT
E-nail.

The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:52am PT
BTW:

Still got over 10 of them old RP hangers. I personally say the old stopper cinched over and tight on the screw gig is the best way to go.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:08am PT
Is there a video of someone putting up a bolt ladder?

Major boring, pun intended.

I was going to suggest hero loops, since VM's new to nail-ups, obvious to the most casual, cynical old iron banger.

I posted a picture on the Oakdale show-and-tell thread that PO posted of a RR magic moment.

The hero loop's the ticket, V, as someone mentioned...

It's maybe fifty cents worth of webbing that can save you lots of time on a ladder.

You do any more, without a couple on your rack, you're a silly boy.

My two-loop aid slings (I'm in total agreement with Tom Frost on this, I believe) were alway equipped with sub-aiders and hero loops.

The maxim for bolt ladders is simple, don't slow down. You are in little danger. You can rest at the anchor.

This is the ticket if your pard's dicking around reaching for it.

MOVE IT, ASSWIPE is not subtle enough. You should both master "half-inch heroism," as Millis the Mentor put it.

Don't fail to try fi-fi hooks, either. These make it all worth while for the time they save. LeConte, hallowed though it is, isn't a good place to practice this technique. Just get on a Five and practice.

I can't think of anyplace else in the Valley, though Mickey's Beach might still provide a bolt ladder. Haven't been round there in years. That is, if you find yourself in the city on a weekend, which isn't your style.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:32am PT
Thanks for the clarification, Chief.

Middendorf and Bridwell did some hardware testing years ago and put numbers to actual pieces placed, as far as force required to break/pull rivets and bolts of various types and sizes. Not sure if it was ever published online, but I have a copy somewhere. I did some very archaic testing of rivets and bolts in some solid granite around here, with a 10-lb. sledgehammer and a ~3-foot funkness device made of doubled #4 cable. Although not terribly scientific, the results were quite interesting.

I would say that a longer grade 5, 5/16” machine-head rivet that is well-placed will hold any fall thrown at it. A well-placed grade 5, 3/8” machine-head “rivet” might even hold my truck. I found that a bomber 5/16” machine-head withstood more sledgehammer abuse in both tension and sheer before it pulled than did a bomber 1/4” x 1 1/2” button-head with a hanger. If properly placed, a machine-head can be surprisingly strong, especially considering that it’s placed in such a shallow hole. This, of course, is dependent on rock quality.


“I personally say the old stopper cinched over and tight on the screw gig is the best way to go.”

Why?



And in response to this earlier question that never got a reply…

“What's best practice for bailing on a pitch of questionable gear? Hell, even good gear…”

If you aren’t too far above the belay and it’s possible, down-aiding while cleaning might be your best bet. If you are a ways up a pitch, you might be better off building a small anchor to be lowered from (if you are less than half-a-rope-length out) or rap from (if you are past half-rope). In any case, you are going to have to sacrifice some gear to leave – better off finding a spot on the pitch where you can leave heads, or pins, or wired nuts. Bailing from cams could get expensive.

If you build a small anchor consisting of two or three pieces that are placed close together, you can equalize them. This would be much better than just leaving your last two or three placements in hopes that the lower pieces will ‘back-up’ the upper piece, should it fail. Just make sure that the pieces in your anchor are good. If in doubt, add an extra piece to your anchor so that you are sure that it’s solid. No sense in getting hurt while bailing.

However, the best option by far is to have your belayer send you a beer on the tag line and then finish leading the pitch! But don’t forget to have fun too.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2012 - 01:44am PT
Vitally - just so poor Donini doesn't have a stroke..
I'm game for Pakistan on my next big trip...yayayaya

Let's start with Kings Canyon! LOL

PS: Wish I could understand the discussion Chief, Minerals, mucci, Jeremy etc are having about different sizes of rivets and how drilling some of those is almost as good as a bolt....interesting stuff...

Can you guys explain what is currently acceptable for first ascents on walls? As I understand the less bolts is better, and if you have to drill you better do a lot of hooking and maybe do a few moves on drilled holes with a bat hook before you put in a rivet? People do not do bolt ladders any longer?

Jim, I hope to do more and more peaks in the future. I think it is good for me to learn some basics (at least) about all kinds of climbing to be more or less complete.

rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 06:45am PT
This is a great thread!
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Oct 30, 2012 - 09:29am PT
“I personally say the old stopper cinched over and tight on the screw gig is the best way to go.”

Why?

When I am on A4 plus shettin my pants hooking and riveting pitch, the last thing I want is to be carrying tons of shet.

Why carry hangers when you can carry small stoppers already racked and for me easier to use on rivets?

Personal preference I guess.


Also, I have used both Hex head and Button head. Depends on which container I grab when heading out.


PS: I love the holding your truck comment... that's what I am saying.
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