Stupid Questions about Aid Climbing

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Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:13am PT
Ultra hard?


photo not found
Missing photo ID#270111


I MISS EL CAP!
Grippa

Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:18am PT
Brief question about aid: What's it called if Mark Hudon sends a message from the middle of an El Cap route?

It's called "Sending" a text message Mouse. Sending is something Mark familiar with..haha!
Captain...or Skully

climber
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:23am PT
All these "Wall Climbers" inhabiting the Spew Board?



HA!
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:36am PT
“Godammit, Mineral Boy.....;-)”

Do they allow free climbers to spew over there…? I spend way too much time here as it is.

Let’s hear your drunken rant! Only had two Green Labels left so had to throw some Cobras from my Tuolumne-late-season-stash into the freezer to try to keep up!

Mucci, have the SS machine-heads been working ok for you?

Hey Skully, tell ‘em about those stainless rivets on Tribal… You know the ones… : )


“Of course how you prep your rivet on the wheel is going to determine how it's placed.”

Definitely. Depends on the rock too. Sometime you don’t even need to clean them up on a grinder. The machine-heads with the un-threaded section next to the hex head don’t come in a short length so you have to cut them to the preferred length with bolt cutters. In some cases, like on the S. Face of HD, they went in great without any grinding after cutting them down to length.


Jeremy, have you modified Spectres, etc. on a grinder? I made a few different versions of ‘em that worked well in that mud. Also modified some of the Pika ice pitons too by putting a knifeblade taper on ‘em with a grinder. What were those things called…? Arkee? I forget, and mine are in storage. Can’t find any with a Google image search. Anyways, killer little modified piece. But not to worry, the #3 Tomahawks are on the way and you will be psyched!

Captain...or Skully

climber
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:40am PT
Hey Skully, tell ‘em about those stainless rivets on Tribal… You know the ones… : )

You mean the ones I pulled out accidentally with my fingers, & quickly put back? Yeesh. They Still held body weight. I checked. Once, anyway.

I may not get drunk enough to rant, this night....It's comin', though.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:48am PT
Chief, you must be referring to 5/16” machine-heads, which have been the standard size for grade 5 machine-head rivets for years. I’ve placed tons of the 5/16” size and they work great, as I mentioned earlier. The 3/8” machine-heads is what I was questioning.

I use the 3/8" X 1" if I know I will be running out the section above me with narly dime size heading for at least 20-30' or more.

The standard 5/16" X 3/4" I utilize in between 3-5 bathook moves.

Does it make a difference? Well, all I know is they will hold a 15-20 footer.

As far as SS also making a difference, well, in the wallet maybe.

Hope that clarifies things...



Jeremy: Beaking like that was the norm in the Towers and on some of the narly River Road classics. "Artist Tears", some stuff in Arches/Kane Creek and Long Canyon require'd it BITD as you well know. Love the old pound in the series of 10 to 15 Beak days of the Utah Desert
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:52am PT
E-nail.

The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:52am PT
BTW:

Still got over 10 of them old RP hangers. I personally say the old stopper cinched over and tight on the screw gig is the best way to go.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:08am PT
Is there a video of someone putting up a bolt ladder?

Major boring, pun intended.

I was going to suggest hero loops, since VM's new to nail-ups, obvious to the most casual, cynical old iron banger.

I posted a picture on the Oakdale show-and-tell thread that PO posted of a RR magic moment.

The hero loop's the ticket, V, as someone mentioned...

It's maybe fifty cents worth of webbing that can save you lots of time on a ladder.

You do any more, without a couple on your rack, you're a silly boy.

My two-loop aid slings (I'm in total agreement with Tom Frost on this, I believe) were alway equipped with sub-aiders and hero loops.

The maxim for bolt ladders is simple, don't slow down. You are in little danger. You can rest at the anchor.

This is the ticket if your pard's dicking around reaching for it.

MOVE IT, ASSWIPE is not subtle enough. You should both master "half-inch heroism," as Millis the Mentor put it.

Don't fail to try fi-fi hooks, either. These make it all worth while for the time they save. LeConte, hallowed though it is, isn't a good place to practice this technique. Just get on a Five and practice.

I can't think of anyplace else in the Valley, though Mickey's Beach might still provide a bolt ladder. Haven't been round there in years. That is, if you find yourself in the city on a weekend, which isn't your style.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:32am PT
Thanks for the clarification, Chief.

Middendorf and Bridwell did some hardware testing years ago and put numbers to actual pieces placed, as far as force required to break/pull rivets and bolts of various types and sizes. Not sure if it was ever published online, but I have a copy somewhere. I did some very archaic testing of rivets and bolts in some solid granite around here, with a 10-lb. sledgehammer and a ~3-foot funkness device made of doubled #4 cable. Although not terribly scientific, the results were quite interesting.

I would say that a longer grade 5, 5/16” machine-head rivet that is well-placed will hold any fall thrown at it. A well-placed grade 5, 3/8” machine-head “rivet” might even hold my truck. I found that a bomber 5/16” machine-head withstood more sledgehammer abuse in both tension and sheer before it pulled than did a bomber 1/4” x 1 1/2” button-head with a hanger. If properly placed, a machine-head can be surprisingly strong, especially considering that it’s placed in such a shallow hole. This, of course, is dependent on rock quality.


“I personally say the old stopper cinched over and tight on the screw gig is the best way to go.”

Why?



And in response to this earlier question that never got a reply…

“What's best practice for bailing on a pitch of questionable gear? Hell, even good gear…”

If you aren’t too far above the belay and it’s possible, down-aiding while cleaning might be your best bet. If you are a ways up a pitch, you might be better off building a small anchor to be lowered from (if you are less than half-a-rope-length out) or rap from (if you are past half-rope). In any case, you are going to have to sacrifice some gear to leave – better off finding a spot on the pitch where you can leave heads, or pins, or wired nuts. Bailing from cams could get expensive.

If you build a small anchor consisting of two or three pieces that are placed close together, you can equalize them. This would be much better than just leaving your last two or three placements in hopes that the lower pieces will ‘back-up’ the upper piece, should it fail. Just make sure that the pieces in your anchor are good. If in doubt, add an extra piece to your anchor so that you are sure that it’s solid. No sense in getting hurt while bailing.

However, the best option by far is to have your belayer send you a beer on the tag line and then finish leading the pitch! But don’t forget to have fun too.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2012 - 01:44am PT
Vitally - just so poor Donini doesn't have a stroke..
I'm game for Pakistan on my next big trip...yayayaya

Let's start with Kings Canyon! LOL

PS: Wish I could understand the discussion Chief, Minerals, mucci, Jeremy etc are having about different sizes of rivets and how drilling some of those is almost as good as a bolt....interesting stuff...

Can you guys explain what is currently acceptable for first ascents on walls? As I understand the less bolts is better, and if you have to drill you better do a lot of hooking and maybe do a few moves on drilled holes with a bat hook before you put in a rivet? People do not do bolt ladders any longer?

Jim, I hope to do more and more peaks in the future. I think it is good for me to learn some basics (at least) about all kinds of climbing to be more or less complete.

rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 06:45am PT
This is a great thread!
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Oct 30, 2012 - 09:29am PT
“I personally say the old stopper cinched over and tight on the screw gig is the best way to go.”

Why?

When I am on A4 plus shettin my pants hooking and riveting pitch, the last thing I want is to be carrying tons of shet.

Why carry hangers when you can carry small stoppers already racked and for me easier to use on rivets?

Personal preference I guess.


Also, I have used both Hex head and Button head. Depends on which container I grab when heading out.


PS: I love the holding your truck comment... that's what I am saying.
whitemeat

Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:46am PT
how does the follower clean a "tension traverse" For example pitch 3 of the Nose. But not when its a pendulum and the leader just runs it out till the rope is straight up and down, because then it would not be a problem for example Pitch 6south central on the column.


Please try to include pictures !!!!!!
Grippa

Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 30, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
http://vimeo.com/4388859 lower out video
whitemeat

Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
wow thats a very good video grippa, thanks alot !!!!!!!
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2012 - 04:16pm PT
Any thoughts about using a 'Silent Partner' for soloing walls? A lot of people use grigris. What are advantages?

What set up do majority of people who solo walls use?
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Nov 28, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#248484

As with all aid climbing, make sure to wear pads.

Safety first.

JA
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
Nov 28, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
I have a silent partner that I have used doing "practice" aiding but haven't used it on a wall yet. It scares the sh#t out of me everytime, but so far it's always caught me.


Different question....

What's the story behind the OLD rivet ladder on the south side of the Columbia boulder in camp 4. It would be fun practice if the things weren't old as sh#t and the first one wasn't hammered flat....
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
i WASNT ON THE INTERNET during bush years...
Nov 28, 2012 - 06:06pm PT
hmmm small KB abut an inch in,, "looks good"!!!
hmmm small KB abut an inch in,, "looks good"!!!
Credit: Ron Anderson

in this shot, ive done an offwidth to reaching blind around the corner to tap a knife balde that bottoms out about an inch in. I tie it off and contemplate the UGLY landing in the talus 15 or more feet below if it pops.



surprised to still be clinging to the stone after the swing around ont...
surprised to still be clinging to the stone after the swing around onto the route form the offwidth..

rack: rurps -many, many small knife blades with many tie off loops, a hook and 1 --1/2 inch angle with tie off loop. cant bring enough TIE OFF loops
Credit: Ron Anderson

it held,, as did the rest under MY body weight - after the third attempt to nail this seam on an overhung pinnacle- it was H-E-I-N-O-U-S...Hook move towards the top and a 1/2" angle tied off in the middle other wise all rurps and tied off bottoming small blades. one goes,, they all woulda..



my contribution to one pitch aid nightmares. "Hairline" fa 78 A4-X.. Eagle lake Cliffs on "off the wall" pinnacle- west face.

inspired by none other than the REAL Batso...



Credit: Ron Anderson


during the first attempts, i lowered off the angle after specific directions to those who tagged along to watch the carnage and belay.. " Once you start lowering me do it steadily with out any stopping or stuttering- THATS IMPERATIVE!" Never have repeated that - doubt ill ever wanna...


None of my belay slaves could weight the first placements without popping them. Ya had to be light,, and DELICATE.. I didnt even breath to hard as to shake them loose. On high ON Elcap, it would be a brilliant crux pitch to some climb, however, at just under 80 feet from the large jagged talus there,, its just feckin stupid.. Maybe it was that "lumbo-gold" ..?


THANK YOU YVONNE CHOUINARD for that most stellar gear!!
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