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John M
climber
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Sometimes its hard to find people. Sometimes you just want to go alone. My friend Heidi is always having trouble finding people with the same amount of time off. Her last trip was 21 days.
I use to solo hike long distances all the time. I would usually call someone with my planned itinerary, but that wasn't always what I ended up doing. Sometimes high rivers would change my plan, or snow, or I would just decide to change my plan. On a 40 mile hike, there is a lot of terrain to cover.
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hb81
climber
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If I don't come back?
Don't come looking for me. Don't mobilize nothing. No air searches. No grid searches. No nothing.
I assume your family knows and agrees about this?!
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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If I don't come back?
Don't come looking for me. Don't mobilize nothing. No air searches. No grid searches. No nothing.
How the hell could we search for you man?
Primary search area... State of California
Secondary search area ... Planet Earth
On another note .. It's kinda time for condolences, Hope can be torture when a person is not found. So sorry.
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splitter
Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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How the hell could we search for you man? Dood prollie kickin it in The Promised Land ... wud be my guess!
edit: but, i think that is his point, he doesn't want anyone to search. it's called self reliant, self sufficient, excepts resposibility & consequences for his own actions.
edit: climbski2 "I meant that as a compliment." -- yea, i figured you did (i got that). i just had to add my dipshit .02 worth to it! ;)
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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I meant that as a compliment. DMT gets around :)
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Dingus, you should put a message in a bottle, or at least set up a system of clues like in the movie the Da Vinci Code.
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splitter
Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Everytime this thread comes up, I'm hoping for the best outcome possible, even at this point in time. Hoping that he did end up in Bridgeport or Modesto or somewhere with someone he ran into. I was knocked out once and suffered amnesia and couldn't even remember my name or why or where I was (skiing). But i was capable of getting myself out of there. It must be ruff for his friends and loved ones, watching and waiting. Please don't give up hope, all hope. Our thoughts and prayers are with you.
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John M
climber
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Does anybody know the stats on SPOT and EPIRB and the "real needs" versus "false alarms" type calls ? Is there a significant rise of un-needed rescues....... ? ? ?
There has probably been an uptick in false calls, but to balance it you would have to also figure out how many legitimate rescues have been made easier and how much easier and how many lives have been saved because the person was easy to find immediately.
If you had 10 extra SARs that involved sending a helicopter out only to find out it was a mistake
Versus
3 legitimate SARs where the only thing needed was one Helicopter and one team to go out instead up 10 or 20 teams and one or more helicopters searching for many days. We just had 54 people searching for 3 days, plus 6 dog teams and one helicopter for those same three days to find someone that was one mile from town. If she had a spot, one person could have hiked out there and found her in less then an hour.
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Fletcher
Trad climber
Fumbling towards stone
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I understand what Donini and Dingus are saying and agree to an extent (I'm not saying they are saying the same things, btw!). I too am of the "less is more" philosophy. It can get more complex when you have a family. I have four kids and a Mom on the east coast who loses sleep every time there's an earthquake 500 miles away from me. My wife, though, she can do without me just fine! :-)
So, while I'm out there being self-sufficient and accepting the ultimate reality of my boneheaded actions, I do want to give them options. More than anything else, I am working to teach all my kids to be self-sufficient. When they are 35, *I* should be living off of them, not vice-versa! :-) I try to do this by action much more than words. But you probably need both to an extent. YMMV.
Underlying this discussion is the sense that many climbers have about mortality. Many of us are acutely aware that ultimately we are all terminal. We all have expiration dates, we just don't know when. How we deal with (or not deal with) this final element of this life gets reflected in our actions and attitudes.
I certainly don't want to be a burden to others. But sometimes not being a burden to some can be a huge burden to others. It's a complex and nuanced topic. Maybe one day I'll get closer to some actual insight! Ha!
Not to forget the original intent of this post: hoping that Larry's family and friends can find their peace.
Eric
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jstan
climber
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Very sad. Everyone goes off solo on occasion so we all have been there. It is an emotional, a logistical, and a legal mess when someone can't be found. Beacons could be an answer but in something like a fall you don't have a chance to find the recessed button. Something needs to be designed specifically for locating accidents. Something bullet proof. One that has good safeguards against sending erroneous signals. Is there such a unit out there?
A "TracMe" beacon that transmits when queried by a rescuer might do it. The unit would have to have its own unique ID and that number would have to be left visible on the dashboard.
Edit:
if a button IS NOT reset by a certain time it will send an Alert.
If you leave it activated in this mode and toss the unit onto your dresser and leave, you have an erroneous message. Even if it blinks and sounds an audible first. For a query from rescuer to work they have to have the transmitter and that becomes an economy of scale issue. There have to be a lot of these units out there.
The line of sight issue may mean the receiver has to be really sensitive and perhaps activated from satellite. OK. This is getting over the line. Time to start leaving itineraries with someone and then not getting lost too badly.
If I were a searcher in such a case, I'd soon be in a terrible mood. Really don't want to do that to anyone.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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One could easily design a failsafe on a device such that if a button IS NOT reset by a certain time it will send an Alert. Never have checked any of these things out in detail so I dont know if that is an offered feature.
Even so line of sight might cause failure.
I'm certainly not against these devices if well designed and used properly as a backup. A tool I could see myself wishing to have. I like backups for my backups if they are tiny , unobtrusive and simple.
I will die, yes, but damnwell not yet if I have anything to say about it.
EDIT
suggest a tell me three times protocol for setting into auto rescue mode.. or for that matter perhaps even any rescue mode.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2009/09/body-overdue-hiker-found-remote-rugged-area-grand-canyon-national-park4614
http://www.keprtv.com/news/local/Crews-searching-for-overdue-hikers-on-Mount-Ranier-137869213.html?s=experts
Just two of the many reports. I found these by going Google Images shopping.
Not all missing hikers are lost. Just unfortunate. Whatever the reason, the people out there looking are the real deal and deserve everyone's thanks and prayers.
It's not the most fun thing to get to find "the surpise" and not everyone's able to stomach the job of dealing with the find. I've talked to Merry Braun. She's not cold-blooded, certainly, but she is sometimes able to deal with thigs Werner and the others cannot. She's able to turn it off, not that she's immune to empathy, herself. She does whats necessary. More or less her own words, no sh#t.
And it's so newsworthy, this rescue business. People slam the media for overdoing things. Fair enough. But where would we be without their missing persons notifications, their amber alerts, and their internet postings? (Or might I better ask where would some formerly missing persons be?)
On point, does anyone have info on the results of either or both of the searches in the links above?
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Seems to me all you would need would be a device that tracks you all the time, and let other people decide if you need a rescue. I think these things exist already, used by private security companies in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. It contains a gps so knows where it is, but I'm not sure how it communicates.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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There are several variants possible on a dead man's switch type transmitter. All subject to physical and human limitations, but some worth considering. They seem to range from:
1. Gadget that automatically broadcasts a message to say that you're OK, but not where you are, once a day - unless you intervene to tell it not to, or it isn't working.
2. #1, with the addition that it also broadcasts your location.
3. Gadget that automatically broadcasts a message to say that you're NOT OK, and where you are - unless you tell it otherwise.
4. Gadget (i.e. SPOT) that broadcasts a message with sub-texts, but only when you tell it to. Message ranging from "I'm OK" to "I'm OK, here's where I am" to "Here's where I am" to "I'm not OK, here's where I am" to "I'm not OK, here's where I am, I need help asap".
All dependent on human, mechanical and electronic failings, and also somewhat dependent on education of those who receive the messages. And there'll always be a significant number of false positives and false negatives. As observed upthread, it may overall still save rescuer time and resources.
Of course, a modern telephone, if in range and turned on, may continually tell observers where you are...
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Fletcher
Trad climber
Fumbling towards stone
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If you are using the "check-in" button daily, then this is typically going to narrow down your general vicinity. There's only so far one can go in one day.
Of course, if you become delirious for some reason and continue to wander without checking in, then that makes it harder.
Ain't no guarantees in this business!
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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JMuir would be shocked at the gear any of us feel compelled to carry, and I am not referring to Spot. Five hundred dollar boots, Gortex gear, high tech tents, titanium sporks, it is all stuff to make life better and/or safer. A personal locator is just another "improvement".
When I was younger I would deliberately not tell people where I was going. now that I am a single dad of a nine year old I have to hedge my bets. I travel and climb in a much different style. The thought of me dying and leaving my son alone is sheer torture.
More people are taking bigger risks. Beacons make life safer for both the party carrying it, as well as everyone else who might be in the back country. I completely understand the view that such a device diminishes the challenge. It is a valid point that one goes into the back country to get away, be self sufficient and totally responsible for their well being. Will Spot become a crutch, much like cams have?
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ShawnInPaso
climber
Paso Robles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2012 - 09:07pm PT
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Thanks to the dedicated men and woman of the SAR teams and others for making the serious effort to find Larry Conn.
Perhaps one day we may know of his fate......
Rest In Peace Larry, rest in peace.
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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If you are really worried about being "located" when you are injured, lost or deceased, just get micro-chipped and all your problems are solved!
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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It is called Wilderness for a good reason. Accept it.
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