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ShawnInPaso
climber
Paso Robles, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 25, 2012 - 02:46am PT
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"by SEKI Public Affairs on Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:41 pm
Please call if you have any information about this overdue hiker (Oct. 24)--www.nps.gov/seki/parknews/newsreleases.htm.
SEKI Public Affairs
Topix Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:43 pm"
More Info Here:
http://www.highsierratopix.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8537
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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Oct 25, 2012 - 03:04am PT
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Some specifics from the thread >> Larry left on a backpack last Friday, the 19th. He was due back Monday but has not returned. He went in on the Taboose Pass trail. His tentative itinerary was to head up, generally, along the Muir trail toward Mather Pass and possibly climb Split Mt. Then he planned to head back toward Pinchot Pass and explore some of the creeks in that area.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Oct 25, 2012 - 11:41am PT
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Nasty weather. Hope he is just waiting it out.
Prayers
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Oct 25, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
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bump in hopes someone with info see this
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Oct 25, 2012 - 07:26pm PT
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hey there say, all...
oh my...i was hoping for good news by now...
did not know snow was about, :(
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Oct 25, 2012 - 07:29pm PT
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They must be widening the search area 'cause I heard they're about to call in Tulare county search and rescue in addition to the Inyo people and SEKI rangers that are already out looking.
Hope he's found soon!
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ShawnInPaso
climber
Paso Robles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 12:55am PT
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Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks News Release
For Immediate Release: October 25, 2012
Contact: Dana M. Dierkes
Phone: (559) 565-3131 (office) and (559) 679-2866 (cell)
Search for Missing Hiker at Kings Canyon National Park and
in the Inyo National Forest Continues
Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks, CA – The search for missing hiker Lawrence (Larry) Conn, a
53-year-old man from Pacific Palisades, California, continues at Kings Canyon National Park and in the
adjacent Inyo National Forest. As of October 25, a total of 20 staff from Sequoia and Kings Canyon
National Parks and the Inyo County Sheriff’s Department are involved in the search-and-rescue, which
includes on-the-ground operations and three helicopters, including one with thermal imaging technology.
The incident is being managed by both Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks and the Inyo County
Sheriff’s Department, with additional support from the Air National Guard and the California Highway Patrol.
On October 24, two helicopters and approximately 12 people from Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks
and the Inyo County Sheriff’s Department participated in search operations. Efforts were hampered by snow
and high winds.
On Friday, October 19, 2012, Conn started his hike at the Taboose Creek Trailhead in the southern portion of
the Sierra Nevada in the Inyo National Forest with plans to travel over Taboose Pass toward the John Muir Trail
in Kings Canyon National Park. His route may have included Split Mountain and areas to the south, including
Pinchot Pass. He planned to return to the Taboose Creek Trailhead on Monday, October 22, 2012. (See flyer.)
The search area is in rugged terrain at 10,000-12,000 feet in elevation. Approximately 1 to 1-1/2 feet of snow is
on the ground in the search area. (See attached photo.) Temperatures range from the mid-30s in the day to the
low-20s at night (degrees Fahrenheit).
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Oct 26, 2012 - 11:28am PT
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Bump needed
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Oct 26, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
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After a few days, more SAR resources are generally called in since the first team is generally in need of relief. Tactics change.
There have been happy endings after days and despite unpleasant weather.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Oct 26, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
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Let's hope he dug in and is just awaiting help. . .
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Gene
climber
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Oct 26, 2012 - 08:54pm PT
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Bump...
...and waiting for good news.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Oct 26, 2012 - 09:46pm PT
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Big epic.
Hey, do I know Larry Conn? Sounds familiar.
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splitter
Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Oct 27, 2012 - 12:15am PT
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Hoping & praying for the best outcome!
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Oct 27, 2012 - 12:19am PT
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Bump... Prayers!
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Oct 27, 2012 - 11:57am PT
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Bump and hope that good weather brings him home safe and sound.
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ShawnInPaso
climber
Paso Robles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
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SAR continues; still no word.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Oct 27, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
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He should have turned up by now.....Sending good vibes his way.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Oct 27, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
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Hoping for a good outcome....something to tell the grand kids about!
Susan
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Oct 28, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
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almost a week overdue
Seen longer times end well but it is rare
prayers
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Oct 28, 2012 - 06:11pm PT
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Oh, this is heartbreaking!
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Oct 28, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
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Wouldn't it be great if he just found some hot Chika and is somewhere being happy and forgot to tell anyone?
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Oct 28, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
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Yes! Crossing my fingers that is the case!
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Oct 28, 2012 - 09:14pm PT
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Still hoping.
We had two "lost parties" this weekend. There is great innovation that happens when conditions turn ugly. Dad takes cover in a lava cast with his six year old to get out of drenching rains all night. All found here - for the moment. Two missing just south of us in Oregon.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Oct 29, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
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hey there say, all... was hoping for good news...
still keeping this to heart, to pray on...
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jstan
climber
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Oct 30, 2012 - 12:20am PT
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I used always to solo hike. Don't think I would do it again without a beacon. Searching takes a huge effort. A mess when someone just disappears.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Oct 30, 2012 - 12:22am PT
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Saw the search helicopter heading back to Ash Mountain Saturday while climbing on Moro. Hope they keep it up, but that's a big search area for one little person.
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Oct 30, 2012 - 06:52am PT
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One found in good health fortunately, one to go.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Oct 30, 2012 - 07:56am PT
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hey there say, all...
still remembering to pray for him...
sure hope that some clues are found soon,
god bless to the workers, too...
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Oct 31, 2012 - 08:10pm PT
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Way overdue..
still hoping
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
moving thru
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Oct 31, 2012 - 08:20pm PT
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When you head out into the wild you never know what will happen. Most of the time we come back OK. Guy I worked with in the Eastern Sierra this past summer took a solo hike and when he came back said he was nearly hit by large falling rock. Jess falling due to Mom Natura. He would have been toast.
Weighed this quite a bit.....solo hiking, climbing, kayaking etc. You better be prepared and count the cost.
Edit: Like the rest of you all, praying this will have a good ending.
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ShawnInPaso
climber
Paso Robles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 2, 2012 - 02:10am PT
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The latest update from SEKI:
Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks, CA – Efforts to locate missing hiker Larry Conn have been suspended after an intense search revealed no clues. The search of likely areas lasted for eight days utilizing 56 personnel from multiple agencies, with 10 ground search teams, three dog teams, and five helicopters. Conn began a four-day trip in the rugged wilderness of Kings Canyon National Park starting at Taboose Pass on October 19, when he was seen by an outbound hiker. A winter storm arrived in the area on the evening of October 20 and deposited up to 12 inches of snow. Conn was reported overdue to the Inyo County Sheriff’s Department on the evening of October 23, and the Sheriff’s Department confirmed his vehicle was still at the trailhead. On October 24, the Inyo County Sheriff’s Department notified the National Park Service of the missing hiker. Search operations began in Kings Canyon National Park on October 24 and continued through October 31. Environmental conditions were challenging in the search area – a total of 48 square miles of mountainous terrain. Elevations ranged from 8,000 to 14,000 feet. Nighttime temperatures dropped to as low as 15 degrees Fahrenheit. Snowdrifts made travel by foot difficult. Two searchers were evacuated by helicopter due to medical concerns related to environmental conditions.
The Incident Management Team, with the assistance of the State Search and Rescue Coordinator, reviewed operations and decided to suspend the active search. According to Incident Commander Dave Fox,
“The National Park Service and our partners have searched for Larry Conn in challenging conditions in a vast area of wilderness. We have followed up on all potential clues. There is little information left to direct search operations. We will continue to actively search for Larry Conn, if new information is revealed through investigation or tips.”
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, all...
just stopped by, hoping for good news...
:(
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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JStan,
I used to take off into all kinds of wild places like the deep desert and the Arctic. Sometimes I was gone for a long time.
I thought taking a PLB was whimpy. After watching too many searches and all of the manpower spent, I have changed my tune.
A good example is the people who ignored mandatory evacuations during Sandy and other hurricanes. They end up costing way too much in manpower and just wasting time for the rescue people who could be doing other things.
So I have decided that it is kinda selfish in a way if you are going solo. For all of those people who ignore mandatory evacuations, I think that one round of the Yosemite Rescue Rule would end all that. If you ignore the evac order and have to be rescued, charge the cost. That would straighten it out right quick.
PLB's are getting cheap, and I can always borrow one from somebody. Up in the North Slope Burrough, at least out of Barrow, they have a bunch to loan out. Lone hunters are always breaking down in their snow machines and there is a lot of wasted search time. A PLB sends your exact GPS coordinates to the SARSAT system.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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I suspect sickening news for his family and friends. Very sad.
Susan
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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I hope that the family gets some news soon. We still have one missing on Rainier from this winter.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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NPS suspended their search. Don't know about Inyo County
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Base104! Re your comment: PLB's are getting cheap, and I can always borrow one from somebody. Up in the North Slope Burrough, at least out of Barrow, they have a bunch to loan out. Lone hunters are always breaking down in their snow machines and there is a lot of wasted search time. A PLB sends your exact GPS coordinates to the SARSAT system.
I'm with you. I bought a SPOT a few years back, after talking with a guy who had a heart attack while on a solo trip in the remote SW corner of Yellowstone. He sat around for a couple days, waiting to die, then walked out.
His thoughts are mine. If you do solo wilderness trips: it isn't fair to make a lot of people search for your injured or dead body. Leave a route plan, but also buy and learn how to use a PLB.
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Radish
Trad climber
SeKi, California
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I worked on this search and am not at liberty to talk about it but...........Looking back this season, there sure were alot of single hikers out with long searches turning out bad. A spot device, a list of where your going would save alot of man hours and money!!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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There are now PLBs that you can trigger once a day - as long as you can see a good part of the sky, that is. It sends a message with your geographical coordinates, with the subtext that you're OK.
If you press another (secure) button on the PLB, it transmits a message saying that you need help.
A friend used one on the Pacific Crest Trail this summer. He wasn't able to e-mail or phone more than about once a week, and the "PLB update" system let his family know each day or so where he was and that he was OK.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Sounds like a perfect item for Cmac to review. I am researching now, any input from users?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Sending lots of positive energy that a good outcome is still in the works. Nowadays, I read reports like this and they feel like they're striking very close to home.
Consistent with what I used to do as a youngster, I had some grand solo trips planned over the last 5 or 6 years but got out there, didn't feel quite comfortable really getting off the beaten track and ended up cutting every trip short. I had a sat phone on my wife's insistence, but with age (48 now) and three young kids, I'm just way more risk averse than what I used to be. That is not just the risk of falling off some peak I might be soloing, but breaking an ankle in some talus in a remote area where help is really far off.
I love the Sierra and really love remote parts of the backcountry. However, personally, I'm just not comfortable going there without a partner.
Hang tough Larry.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Never count on technology to ensure your safety.
PLB can help locate you :
1) if it is on
2) if you have it in the correct mode
3) and will summon help if you are alert enough to press the help button.
So if you suffer an abrupt catastrope and are not able to push the button, no one will look for you. You take a screaming fall off a trail or down some fourth class gully and suffer head trauma, it won't help you.
However if you have an injury that does not render you unconscious, you can press the button.
My daughter gave me a spot for xmas a couple years ago. When venturing forth on a serious adventure alone or even in a pair, I will carry it. It does not make me invincible. If you put it on tracking mode, the batteries drain very quickly. So it is not that fabulous used that way on a multi-day adventure. On Whitney, I pushed the I'm OK button once a dya to let my husband know all was well. I put it on tracking mode when I went up the Mountaineer's Route alone.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Well, if it's working and can see the sky, another reason to broadcast a "non-emergency" update from a PLB every day. It lets possible searchers where you were each day, until the last post. If you post every 24 or 48 hours, it limits the starting point and search area.
As seamstress says, though, there are several significant 'ifs' in the equation.
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Stevee B
Mountain climber
Oakland, CA
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Carried one of these for a Trans-Sierra ski a few years back. For a few of the days, it worked fine sending out our daily "we are OK message" with GPS coordinates, but on a few occasions it "false signaled" for rescue but did not transmit coordinates. When we returned to civilization, I had several voicemails saying "We see your SPOT device triggered an SOS message, but we did not receive your coordinates, please contact us to notify us that you are OK." I was nonplussed. When I called them, they had no explanation but offered another year subscription for free, rather than a refund, which I begrudgingly accepted. I sent them back the device and they sent me a replacement. No misfires on that one yet.
I think this is a great idea but I'm wary about the quality control and would be interested in hearing if anyone else had these issues.
FYI, these misfires were when we were base camped in the Kaweah Basin, which has sort of a "bermuda triangle" reputation (superstition?) for messing with tech.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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My experience with Spot model from 2009 are similar to those of Seamstress and all positive. I push the OK button when I'm in camp for the evening, although one day I pushed it just before scrambling a somewhat loose cliff in a remote basin. I figured if something happened, searchers would go to where the last transmission happened.
There are various warnings about not being able to link to a satellite from deep canyons or in dense vegetation. I've had good luck in both, but sometimes it seems to take 20 minutes to make the connection and send the OK message to Heidi's email.
Before the trips: I tell her not to worry if she doesn't get the nightly message, just to pass the last transmission location on to S & R if I don't come home on the scheduled day.
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hossjulia
Social climber
Eastside (of the Tetons)
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I decided against a cross country route suggested here because I was solo and did not have a PLB or SPOT. Hiking the JMT alone is not really being alone, so I stuck to the trail.
My mother however was kinda freaked. It was 2 weeks between places I could call her on my cell. I came close to asking a packer to call her for me.
I'm thinking a sat phone. The whole SPOT thing looked kinda complicated. Plus, as mentioned, if you're unconscious, none of it will do you a bit of good.
I don't trust technology all that much. Learned how to use a GPS for SAR, but never bought one. Map & compass works just fine for me.
When going solo, make a plan, let others know when to expect you and stick to it. I give myself a 36 to 48 hour window too. If it's spur of the moment, I put a note on the dash of my car. "I'm going xxxxx. I'm wearing xxxx and my pack is xxxxx. If this car is still here by xxxxx, call SAR.
But then, I only hike trails solo and don't go off them. It sucks. But better than not going.
I'm sorry this hiker was not found yet. Sad.
I'm thinking of putting in my *prime directive* to not search too long for me if I go missing, I hate putting people in danger and/or wasting resources. 'Cause if I get old and or ill, I intend to die in the wilderness.
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John M
climber
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I think this is a great idea but I'm wary about the quality control and would be interested in hearing if anyone else had these issues.
A friend of mine had problems. It went something like this. She went on a 21 day solo backpacking trip. He was suppose to push the okay button once a day. She said she did. She said she got the green light saying her message was sent. I think thats how it goes. I don't own a spot, so am going on memory. Second generation spot I believe. I didn't get a message until day 4 or 5.
I had dropped her off and then got very bad food poisoning on the way home, so was worried she was ill. On day 3 I called SAR and they said wait one day, so we did and then they said they would start looking the next day and that is when we finally got the signal.
My friend says she did exactly the same thing each day. Spot says she must have messed up. I have no idea. If I remember correctly, there were a number of days it didn't work after that.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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I'm thinking a sat phone. The whole SPOT thing looked kinda complicated. Plus, as mentioned, if you're unconscious, none of it will do you a bit of good.
Probably not what you meant, but I have found that a sat phone also works poorly when you're unconscious. :)
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Tan Slacks
climber
Joshua Tree
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I think this is a great idea but I'm wary about the quality control and would be interested in hearing if anyone else had these issues
I have owned a spot for a few years and used it on maybe five trips. There is a learning curve to the device and after a few missed check-ins on my first trip, I think I have it licked.
For me the trick is after pressing the OK button, I wait 10 minutes regardless of ay color lights before turning it of. This wait is no big deal because I only use the check in where I was camping for the night. I have never been in an area where I did not have signal. All my trips have been in the United States, so I can't speak for international us.
My spot model has four ways to send messages. All of them I am allowed to attach a custom message. The OK button I use for signaling that my day has ended and I am set for the night. The "custom" button has a message to let people know I have found something interesting. (This is good for after my return and review places on my map) The third button is black and labeled "help" This button I use to state that for some reason this is my location and I am unable to move. This alerts family and friends that I have designated that I am OK, but need help at my location. The fourth button labeled "SOS" is sent to some international rescue god in the sky, they locate you and notify the local authorities. Even this button you can add a message. I add the route I am on, my age and a particular medical condition I have.
I have never used buttons 3 and 4. Before leaving on my trip I decide who will get messages on buttons 1,2 and 3. It's been a comfort to my family since I travel alone. My longest trip was near a month and I used the tracking feature (another button) So the Spot was on all day, turned off at night and it lasted 23 days without a problem. The tracking feature can be used with a site called SpotWiki which takes your spot signal and places it on a map in real time. I think a "ping is sent out every ten minutes or so. A fun feature that my family back east enjoyed while checking my progress.
I would definitely recommend a spot for solo, cross country travel. It takes a little prep time, but it is simple to use and if you have anyone at home waiting for you... well you know what I mean. IMHO
edit: I have been following the lost hikers in the Sierra's since the first missing notices and I am sending prayers to their loved ones.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, tan slacks and all...
i will still be praying, too...
hard to hear that no sign has shown up, :(
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Fletcher
Trad climber
Fumbling towards stone
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Still hoping and praying for the best even though it does not look encouraging at this point.
Thanks for the feedback on the Spot. I've done a lot of solo backpacking in the past and was thinking about doing a trip earlier this fall. But then I went to Facelift where I guess it would have come handy had I wandered off lost from the New Belgium beer station. I'll probably be getting one in the future.
Eric
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Fletcher
Trad climber
Fumbling towards stone
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Yes, I am of the "get yourself out" school (if at all possible) too. Part of that is being prepared and when going solo, that's a different kind of prepared than when with others. It also means asking yourself a few extra questions when making route decisions, etc.
What I like about the Spot et al. is the daily check-in. You can still be stubbornly working at "getting yourself out" on you own, but at least others will know what you are doing or not doing in a more pin-pointed way.
Eric
Edit: my big initial influence was Colin Fletcher (still is) and in his books he talks about the complexities of solo travel (and the joys) quite a bit.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Thanks for the feedback on Spot, sounds like it is the way to go, maybe have a few friends go in on one, not everyone needs it every day. Sat phone is overkill.
The $50 product marketed as a PLB could work well. It is a one time use device, battery lasts 10 years. It transmits on FRS channel 1. The idea would be to let someone know you have one, or leave a note in your car. Can not send a daily message, but might be the difference in living or dying, and it is much lighter than the Spot, and could be worn on you, so if you get separated from your gear.
I would be curious is SAR is set-up to locate someone using a TracMe.
98% of the distress signals are false activation!
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jody, the 98% includes all EPIRB activations. This includes boat and plane activation. A hard landing will set one off in a plane. I agree, very few are probably Spot signal.
But just like dumb 911 calls the Spot will be abused by the tired hikers, like the guy who activated his beacon and got rescued twice on the same weekend at the Grand Canyon. The rangers ended his trip on the second one.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Exactly the problem....I would posit that alarms from people who don't really need help create more work for rangers, rescue groups etc. than do searches for overdue people with no electronics. I do a lot of solo hiking and you'll never catch me with anything ( headlamp excepted) that needs a battery.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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You can go in a loin cloth if you wish....what you bring is a personal decision.
There have been a lot of posts here that not bringing these devices is foolhardy and irresponsible. My point is that foolish and irresponsible use of said devices causes MORE work and danger for rescuers than is created by the extremely few incidents where they would have made a difference.
The other argument that such a device could save someone's life also doesn't work for me. That's like telling a climber to always use a rope.
Using my reasoning ( or lack thereof ).....public lands managers would be better off if the aforementioned devices were banned.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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I suppose it's your decision wheather you want to soften the world you venture into...
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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How about a buddy system which has been working since the dawn of man. No idea why no one mentions this. I let Bill go on his mountaineering trip with folks I trust. He has my permission to go "anywhere" with Jordan, they are a great team.
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John M
climber
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Sometimes its hard to find people. Sometimes you just want to go alone. My friend Heidi is always having trouble finding people with the same amount of time off. Her last trip was 21 days.
I use to solo hike long distances all the time. I would usually call someone with my planned itinerary, but that wasn't always what I ended up doing. Sometimes high rivers would change my plan, or snow, or I would just decide to change my plan. On a 40 mile hike, there is a lot of terrain to cover.
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hb81
climber
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If I don't come back?
Don't come looking for me. Don't mobilize nothing. No air searches. No grid searches. No nothing.
I assume your family knows and agrees about this?!
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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If I don't come back?
Don't come looking for me. Don't mobilize nothing. No air searches. No grid searches. No nothing.
How the hell could we search for you man?
Primary search area... State of California
Secondary search area ... Planet Earth
On another note .. It's kinda time for condolences, Hope can be torture when a person is not found. So sorry.
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splitter
Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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How the hell could we search for you man? Dood prollie kickin it in The Promised Land ... wud be my guess!
edit: but, i think that is his point, he doesn't want anyone to search. it's called self reliant, self sufficient, excepts resposibility & consequences for his own actions.
edit: climbski2 "I meant that as a compliment." -- yea, i figured you did (i got that). i just had to add my dipshit .02 worth to it! ;)
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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I meant that as a compliment. DMT gets around :)
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Dingus, you should put a message in a bottle, or at least set up a system of clues like in the movie the Da Vinci Code.
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splitter
Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Everytime this thread comes up, I'm hoping for the best outcome possible, even at this point in time. Hoping that he did end up in Bridgeport or Modesto or somewhere with someone he ran into. I was knocked out once and suffered amnesia and couldn't even remember my name or why or where I was (skiing). But i was capable of getting myself out of there. It must be ruff for his friends and loved ones, watching and waiting. Please don't give up hope, all hope. Our thoughts and prayers are with you.
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John M
climber
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Does anybody know the stats on SPOT and EPIRB and the "real needs" versus "false alarms" type calls ? Is there a significant rise of un-needed rescues....... ? ? ?
There has probably been an uptick in false calls, but to balance it you would have to also figure out how many legitimate rescues have been made easier and how much easier and how many lives have been saved because the person was easy to find immediately.
If you had 10 extra SARs that involved sending a helicopter out only to find out it was a mistake
Versus
3 legitimate SARs where the only thing needed was one Helicopter and one team to go out instead up 10 or 20 teams and one or more helicopters searching for many days. We just had 54 people searching for 3 days, plus 6 dog teams and one helicopter for those same three days to find someone that was one mile from town. If she had a spot, one person could have hiked out there and found her in less then an hour.
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Fletcher
Trad climber
Fumbling towards stone
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I understand what Donini and Dingus are saying and agree to an extent (I'm not saying they are saying the same things, btw!). I too am of the "less is more" philosophy. It can get more complex when you have a family. I have four kids and a Mom on the east coast who loses sleep every time there's an earthquake 500 miles away from me. My wife, though, she can do without me just fine! :-)
So, while I'm out there being self-sufficient and accepting the ultimate reality of my boneheaded actions, I do want to give them options. More than anything else, I am working to teach all my kids to be self-sufficient. When they are 35, *I* should be living off of them, not vice-versa! :-) I try to do this by action much more than words. But you probably need both to an extent. YMMV.
Underlying this discussion is the sense that many climbers have about mortality. Many of us are acutely aware that ultimately we are all terminal. We all have expiration dates, we just don't know when. How we deal with (or not deal with) this final element of this life gets reflected in our actions and attitudes.
I certainly don't want to be a burden to others. But sometimes not being a burden to some can be a huge burden to others. It's a complex and nuanced topic. Maybe one day I'll get closer to some actual insight! Ha!
Not to forget the original intent of this post: hoping that Larry's family and friends can find their peace.
Eric
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jstan
climber
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Very sad. Everyone goes off solo on occasion so we all have been there. It is an emotional, a logistical, and a legal mess when someone can't be found. Beacons could be an answer but in something like a fall you don't have a chance to find the recessed button. Something needs to be designed specifically for locating accidents. Something bullet proof. One that has good safeguards against sending erroneous signals. Is there such a unit out there?
A "TracMe" beacon that transmits when queried by a rescuer might do it. The unit would have to have its own unique ID and that number would have to be left visible on the dashboard.
Edit:
if a button IS NOT reset by a certain time it will send an Alert.
If you leave it activated in this mode and toss the unit onto your dresser and leave, you have an erroneous message. Even if it blinks and sounds an audible first. For a query from rescuer to work they have to have the transmitter and that becomes an economy of scale issue. There have to be a lot of these units out there.
The line of sight issue may mean the receiver has to be really sensitive and perhaps activated from satellite. OK. This is getting over the line. Time to start leaving itineraries with someone and then not getting lost too badly.
If I were a searcher in such a case, I'd soon be in a terrible mood. Really don't want to do that to anyone.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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One could easily design a failsafe on a device such that if a button IS NOT reset by a certain time it will send an Alert. Never have checked any of these things out in detail so I dont know if that is an offered feature.
Even so line of sight might cause failure.
I'm certainly not against these devices if well designed and used properly as a backup. A tool I could see myself wishing to have. I like backups for my backups if they are tiny , unobtrusive and simple.
I will die, yes, but damnwell not yet if I have anything to say about it.
EDIT
suggest a tell me three times protocol for setting into auto rescue mode.. or for that matter perhaps even any rescue mode.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2009/09/body-overdue-hiker-found-remote-rugged-area-grand-canyon-national-park4614
http://www.keprtv.com/news/local/Crews-searching-for-overdue-hikers-on-Mount-Ranier-137869213.html?s=experts
Just two of the many reports. I found these by going Google Images shopping.
Not all missing hikers are lost. Just unfortunate. Whatever the reason, the people out there looking are the real deal and deserve everyone's thanks and prayers.
It's not the most fun thing to get to find "the surpise" and not everyone's able to stomach the job of dealing with the find. I've talked to Merry Braun. She's not cold-blooded, certainly, but she is sometimes able to deal with thigs Werner and the others cannot. She's able to turn it off, not that she's immune to empathy, herself. She does whats necessary. More or less her own words, no sh#t.
And it's so newsworthy, this rescue business. People slam the media for overdoing things. Fair enough. But where would we be without their missing persons notifications, their amber alerts, and their internet postings? (Or might I better ask where would some formerly missing persons be?)
On point, does anyone have info on the results of either or both of the searches in the links above?
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Seems to me all you would need would be a device that tracks you all the time, and let other people decide if you need a rescue. I think these things exist already, used by private security companies in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. It contains a gps so knows where it is, but I'm not sure how it communicates.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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There are several variants possible on a dead man's switch type transmitter. All subject to physical and human limitations, but some worth considering. They seem to range from:
1. Gadget that automatically broadcasts a message to say that you're OK, but not where you are, once a day - unless you intervene to tell it not to, or it isn't working.
2. #1, with the addition that it also broadcasts your location.
3. Gadget that automatically broadcasts a message to say that you're NOT OK, and where you are - unless you tell it otherwise.
4. Gadget (i.e. SPOT) that broadcasts a message with sub-texts, but only when you tell it to. Message ranging from "I'm OK" to "I'm OK, here's where I am" to "Here's where I am" to "I'm not OK, here's where I am" to "I'm not OK, here's where I am, I need help asap".
All dependent on human, mechanical and electronic failings, and also somewhat dependent on education of those who receive the messages. And there'll always be a significant number of false positives and false negatives. As observed upthread, it may overall still save rescuer time and resources.
Of course, a modern telephone, if in range and turned on, may continually tell observers where you are...
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Fletcher
Trad climber
Fumbling towards stone
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If you are using the "check-in" button daily, then this is typically going to narrow down your general vicinity. There's only so far one can go in one day.
Of course, if you become delirious for some reason and continue to wander without checking in, then that makes it harder.
Ain't no guarantees in this business!
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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JMuir would be shocked at the gear any of us feel compelled to carry, and I am not referring to Spot. Five hundred dollar boots, Gortex gear, high tech tents, titanium sporks, it is all stuff to make life better and/or safer. A personal locator is just another "improvement".
When I was younger I would deliberately not tell people where I was going. now that I am a single dad of a nine year old I have to hedge my bets. I travel and climb in a much different style. The thought of me dying and leaving my son alone is sheer torture.
More people are taking bigger risks. Beacons make life safer for both the party carrying it, as well as everyone else who might be in the back country. I completely understand the view that such a device diminishes the challenge. It is a valid point that one goes into the back country to get away, be self sufficient and totally responsible for their well being. Will Spot become a crutch, much like cams have?
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ShawnInPaso
climber
Paso Robles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2012 - 09:07pm PT
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Thanks to the dedicated men and woman of the SAR teams and others for making the serious effort to find Larry Conn.
Perhaps one day we may know of his fate......
Rest In Peace Larry, rest in peace.
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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If you are really worried about being "located" when you are injured, lost or deceased, just get micro-chipped and all your problems are solved!
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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It is called Wilderness for a good reason. Accept it.
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Chris McNamara
SuperTopo staff member
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We just posted a review at OutdoorGearLab.com on Personal Locator Beacons and Satellite Messengers. More important to this discussion is our article that explains how the different satellite networks work and how the devices communicate with them that you can see here https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/topics/camping-and-hiking/best-personal-locator-beacon/buying-advice
A big issue we found in the review is that many devices because they work inconsistently, can actually raise the stress level of family members, friends who are tracking them.
From the review:
A popular anecdote illustrating a drawback of any satellite messenger device which performs with less than 100 percent consistency is that if your contacts are expecting to receive “okay” messages from you, then not receiving them is almost a guaranteed source of stress. If your family or significant other is expecting to receive “okay” messages at a certain frequency, and then they do not, it could cause them to raise the alarm unnecessarily. Indeed, there are many reported cases of this documented by rescue services, and many stories of a messaging device causing, instead of alleviating, stress for people who are tracking the progress of the user.
There are pros and cons to the SEND devices vs. PLB's. And of course there is always the argument (stated earlier) that these devices encourage taking unnecessary risks.... but that argument, while maybe true in a minority of cases, doesn't seem to hold up for the majority. Would you tell someone to not take an avalanche beacon when skiing in the backcountry because it is going to increase their risk-taking? Or tell someone to not wear a seat belt when driving?
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| Messages 1 - 81 of total 81 in this topic |
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