andy@climbingmoab
Big Wall climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 24, 2012 - 09:04pm PT
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I think if anyone has earned the right to put in bolts on a tower, it is Sam Lightner - aside from the numerous bold and high quality new lines he has put in, I appreciate the huge amount of work he has done replacing crap gear with the ASCA and volunteering so much time and effort to the Friends of Indian Creek. Kalous isn't exactly a slouch either.
Looking down on a 4 pitch 5.13 free route that doesn't sound like a sport climb on a tower in a desert filled with bolt ladders also seems misguided. It isn't exactly like 5.13 routes don't get traffic in the desert - 5.13 cracks in Indian Creek gets lots of traffic, as do lines in Mill Creek, on the Priest, and elsewhere in the desert.
Good job Sam and Chris.
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jsj
climber
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Oct 24, 2012 - 09:11pm PT
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According to reports the climb requires at least a single set of cams from fingers all the way up to a #5. Also, it has "obligatory 5.12" - in other words, you can't A-O it. And yet the easiest pitch on it is still... 5.12.
Sounds pretty tRAD to me.
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The New Age Blitzo
Social climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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Oct 24, 2012 - 09:12pm PT
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Hi Beth. Hi Larry!
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2012 - 09:16pm PT
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"I think if anyone has earned the right to put in bolts on a tower"
Really?? So someone can be more worthy of adding bolts to a tower than someone who hasn't done ASCA work?
"5.13 cracks in Indian Creek gets lots of traffic"
Yeah, cause they're CRACKS. You can't send them without placing gear. Not bolted face. Even then the list of people who send those isn't that big. Belly Full of Bad Berries only gets sent by the top of the tier climbers.
"doesn't sound like a sport climb"
Yeah, 16 bolts on a pitch spaced 7 feet apart doesn't sound sport at all.
"in a desert filled with bolt ladders"
This is Castleton Tower, not some random piece of sandstone. See Donini's take upthread. He knows more about it than all of us.
On a happier note....
Hey Billy!! We'll be coming to visit you soon. Miss you. Glad you're doing well.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Oct 24, 2012 - 09:16pm PT
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Hi Blitzo!!
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Oct 24, 2012 - 09:17pm PT
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Top down = Zero accomplishment
Thats true anywhere and everywhere. Just another weenie with a power drill adding to his "resume". Whoop de do.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 24, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
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I have a few thoughts on this, and don't worry - if we don't agree on these thoughts, we can still be friends :D
First off - It is difficult to give an opinion because I haven't climbed the route. Hell, I haven't even walked up to the base of it and looked at it. Rather than speculate on a route that may or may not be a high quality classic, I'll stick to stuff I like - things that are actually debatable at this point.
The idea that cliffs are "trad" or "sport" to me is like saying that rocks are "trad" or "sport." If a route doesn't have stances to be drilled ground-up, and frail (and sparse) flakes make hooking stances a death affair, the argument seems to be to let fallow.
I see the idea, that if it can't be done in a particular style, that it stay unclimbed. This dogma reeks of religion - arrogant conservatism in face of progress. There are no great western deserts desecrated by bolts, just like the 'gay agenda' isn't stealing your children from heterosexuality.
Beth is right, there AREN'T a lot of people that can climb 5.13. Granted, there are kids at my gym in high school that can absolutely dog their way up (if not redpoint the route in a few attempts), but to me that isn't the point.
Let time decide what routes are classic, let our friends who share our ropes enjoy using the mountain resources so long as they abide by the rules and are being gracious to others, and give the f*#king respect you ask for in ALL walks of life. This route probably means SO MUCH to those guys who put it up and worked their asses off, let some bolts sit out of the way of a route you may (OR MAY NOT) do because that experience enriched them and enriched others. This isn't a bolt ladder, there are routes in HIDDEN VALLEY CAMPGROUND with bolts spaced similar distances.
Joshua Tree, Idyllwild, Yosemite, the most hard-core traditional areas have cutting edge bolted rights right in view of well established trade lines. Give it up with the evangelical climbing, go get a beer, get laid and have a good time. We're all dying soon, is this worth giving a sh#t about?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 24, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
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Yeah, 16 bolts on a pitch spaced 7 feet apart don't sound sport at all.
I know of a lot of 'trad' climbers that hang their way up cracks with gear every 4 feet :)
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2012 - 09:27pm PT
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On 5.13's Greg?
If bolted 5.13 was so pedestrian, why haven't Cozzie's bolted 5.13 face routes (bolted, not sport) in J-Treee have not seen repeats in the years since he put them up?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 24, 2012 - 09:35pm PT
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On 5.7's. Sh#t, I've done it. I feel safer on straight-in splitters that protect well than routes with bolts every seven feet.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 24, 2012 - 09:38pm PT
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Everyone climbs the bolt ladders on The Nose and numerous other chiseled out big walls (thank you dudes from the past!), but as soon as there is a bolted free climb in place people start crying. Even on free climbs, back in the day if there was a head wall they couldn't free- here comes the bolt ladder!
Beth, would love to see you tell them to chop those 111 bolts from Middle Cathedral: http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1962356/Father-Time-New-VI-Free-Route-on-Middle-Cathedral
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 24, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
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If bolted 5.13 was so pedestrian, why haven't Cozzie's bolted 5.13 face routes (bolted, not sport) in J-Treee have not seen repeats in the years since he put them up?
This is a great question, because I agree - I've certainly seen a handful of 5.13's done first person, at Red Rocks.
In fact, today I worked with a guy who goes to college full time and is a computer engineering major, engaged, and likes to play video games who has climbed 5.13 (and only really boulders these days, but is much much stronger...)
Coz's routes are hard as F*#K. I don't think that means that all 5.13's are as hard....
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 24, 2012 - 09:43pm PT
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I think its just rock climbing : /
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 24, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
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Just realized it was Chris Kalous that bolted it... I recommend hearing his podcast before any personal attacks on the dude.
edit - I think I might be the only one that posts on Supertopo while simultaneously watching a drag queen reality show.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 24, 2012 - 09:57pm PT
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I still need to head out there :( typically lazy california kid, never wanting to get sand-bagged in the real world hehehe...
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2012 - 10:02pm PT
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What's stopping you Greg? It's there.
HIT IT!! :) You'll love it.
Moab rules. Just got back from 8 days there...best 8 days of my year thus far. Even better than all my 3 trips to Tuolumne this summer. It's heaven. Desert sandstone is the best.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Oakland, CA
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Oct 24, 2012 - 10:03pm PT
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Sounds really cool to me, a hard route up a big tower. I say kudos to those guys.
I don't think this is breaking news either, but there are bolts all over castleton. There's like a 2 bolt variation start to Kor Ingals. Jay Smith has some hard looking arete up there somewhere I think.
JTree 5.13 doesn't get repeated much because its unfashionable. People capable of the grade would rather climb something steep and fun than thin and crispy.
I'll get on the bandwagon here and say HEY! to larry, blitzo and beth.
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orangesporanges
climber
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Oct 24, 2012 - 10:04pm PT
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On an established clean tower
Climb it clean
Or take yer falls like a man
And hit the dirt
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
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And I'll say HI Caughtinside!!!
Saw Larry last week at the Love Muffin in Moab. Seeing Billy soon in JT. The circle of friends will be complete.
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