FREE HETCH HETCHY

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
This thread has been locked
Messages 41 - 52 of total 52 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 19, 2012 - 05:35pm PT
From P 2 of the first link above, The Plan

Deconstruction will require the use of heavy equipment, and some rough roads may need to be built for access. These can later be eliminated or converted to trails. Alternatively, a conveyor system could be used; this would be the least environmentally damaging means of removing materials from the valley and could be later modified to act as the means of transporting visitors into the valley.

Playing Old Scratch's advocate here, just so you don't assume I'm for or against the removal of Old Shaughnessy.

Roads that need to handle heavy equipment are not just something to sneeze at, especially in the steep valley of the Tuolumne. There is one road in from Mather Camp now. I am pretty sure it's the one that handled the heavy stuff as it went in to construct the dam and the one used to haul it out. This road is sufficient to the task if it's buttressed, widened, beefed up and well-paved.

I can only point to the Tioga Road's expense in the late fifties. That's silly due to inflation, and it was a lot longer. It cost less than eight million then. Probably a bit less. In the next phase, from Lee Vining to the Pass, it was done for at least eight million. The roads are still fine, but do not carry the weights we are thinking of here.

My point being, there's maybe a need for different routing for heavy stuff, but I just can't see that as needed. My objection to creating new routes is that once the state has put in a road, they are seldom abandoned. Or am I full of it? Remember, I am just the devil's surrogate. (He is too cheap to pay for real representation and is probably laughing his ass off over our human "progress," trusting under God, etc.)
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 19, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
Destroy the dam

Pizza and beer at my house tonight, then we're driving to the dam to make it happen. I gotta work tomorrow, so we gotta get back early.
ElGreco

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2012 - 08:19pm PT
Mouse, from what I understand, removal of the dam itself is one of the options. It could also stay. Draining the reservoir is the main objective. My personal view is that we should tear the ugly f*er down! As with any government operation, the good guys have to keep watch if they want good outcomes.

Ledge Rat, see ya at your place! I'll bring beer and...
cuvvy

Sport climber
arkansas
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:13am PT
Havent seen it in 30 years. I remember a beautiful lake.
)
yosemite 5.9

climber
santa cruz
Nov 21, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
Ever drink the water in San Francisco? It is delicious. I look forward to it every time I go.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 21, 2012 - 08:38pm PT
Pizza and beer at my house tonight, then we're driving to the dam to make it happen. I gotta work tomorrow, so we gotta get back early.

Is the dam still there? Sorry, people, we smoked a little ganja with the pizza and forgot what we were supposed to do that night.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 21, 2012 - 09:26pm PT
We can just start slow with a rappel/grafitti party next weekend.

Dammage report

http://usbr.tumblr.com/page/4
http://blogs.redding.com/dsmith/archives/2011/03/shasta-dam-hist.html

rumor: There are bodies buried in Shasta Dam.
Status: False
The scoop: Ask U.S. Bureau of Reclamation spokeswoman Sheri Harral about this tale and she practically groans - the result of having debunked the story hundreds of times in her career.
"It's completely not true," Harral said, adding that such tales pop up at each of the Bureau's largest dams.
Harral said it would have been nearly impossible for someone to be buried inside Shasta Dam.
Although 6.5 million cubic yards of concrete were poured into the dam non-stop over a 4 1/2-year period, it wasn't dumped in all at once.
Harral said the concrete was poured in stages to build partitions, not unlike a child's building blocks. Concrete was dumped from 8-cubic-yard buckets into 50-by-50-foot forms. Each form was five feet deep.
But one load from the bucket filled the form only about six to eight inches at a time, and it took nearly 60 buckets to fill one form.
"Even if you laid very thin and very still, there's no way you could get buried in the concrete," Harral said.

My late father, Boomer, was a grad from Shasta HS when he went to work on Shasta in 1942 for the summer. He ran one of the concrete vibrators eight hours a day in the forms. They'd dump the bucket and he was off to the side with the vibrator in front of him, but I don't understand how it was all rigged. He never explained that.

My mom's dad was a lifelong member of the operating engineers union and he went to Arizona, NM, Idaho, Nevada, Oregon, and Guam on construction jobs ranging from dams to highways to canals. Exchequer, Shasta, Trinity, Oroville, Grand Coulee, Hoover, the California Aqueduct, and B-52 runways.
So you can see I've got a lot of family ties to the dams of the State.



mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 21, 2012 - 10:09pm PT
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Nov 21, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
If you visit the website, and read "The Plan", there is nothing so outlandish about it, you find that the reservoir only has a modest portion of SF's water supply, and that this portion could be handled in other ways.

Seeing how it could come back over a period of years would be an exciting thing for scientists and others who are interested. It wouldn't have to become the organic Disneyland type environment of YV with concessions and the like. You could keep the concessions, parking, etc. outside and below the Valley itself.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 21, 2012 - 11:26pm PT
You lost.

Move along.

Don't come back with the same arguments that failed. You need a completely new approach, or you are wasting time, money, effort.

The anti-environmentalists LOVE this. They view this as an opportunity for very scarce environmental private dollars to be completely wasted, and not be available for other achievable objectives.

Don't help the opposition!
cupton

climber
Where the past and future meet
Nov 22, 2012 - 01:28am PT
The problem with water in California is not a shortage of water but the high levels of water consumption. If water demand was reduced (which is entirely possible... many examples around the world) it would be possible to 'free hetch hetchy'.

Also, desal is not the answer... too expensive and should be a last ditch option. Reduce water demand by appropriate pricing, improving efficiency and promoting rainwater and stormwater harvesting. Once you build a desal plant you gotta pay for it and there is no going back. The water that comes out is not cheap!
Strider

Trad climber
ಠ_ಠ
Nov 22, 2012 - 02:51am PT
As a "true" local to the area (I have lived less than 1 mile from the entrance to Hetch Hetchy for almost 7 years, off and on), I find it fascinating to see so many varied opinions on what should happen to my backyard. Even more entertaining is the fact that SF gets to vote on what happens where I live and I do not. Do not get me wrong, my concerns are not the economic effects to the area because regardless of what happens, where I work will do fine and in fact will probably flourish with increased traffic. I am more concerned with the environmental impact of the proposed deconstructionism.

In my opinion, I feel that environmentalists and Gov't officials can do as much damage or more than the tourists. I am not even thinking about what it would take to remove the dam itself. I have all the books and studies talking about it and most of what they say is ridiculous. But briefly imagine the aftermath, if the dam comes down then how many environmentalists will want access to the area to study? How many trails/roads/campsites will be needed for them to access and study the area for the next 5/10/20 years?

You think climbers will have any kind of timely access to the valley floor and the meager 200' climbs that have been buried under water?

And during/after the environmentalists, then comes the tourists. How many people will want to see the famed Hetch Hetchy Valley drained and in all its gory/muddy glory? What will it take to accommodate them? And 20/30 years from now, when the enviro's are done and bored of this place, what happens then? How about a few campsites, maybe a hotel and concessionary...plenty of space and money to go around...belated sorry for the smog, traffic and crowding like the Valley has.

Or imagine a pristine lake, a pristine valley, that it seems time has forgot. Imagine classic granite climbs that nobody has climbed before because they are too lazy to simply walk an extra few miles.

And don't get me wrong, HH has more than a few surprises for those who would ventures into her bosom. Doesn't matter the time of year, you have: heat, lack of water (ironic, no?), rattlesnakes, poison oak, camping restrictions, etc...

To selectively quote Rowell from Climbing #1, pg. 5 (thanks to my friend CC who transcribed this):

While climbers made over 400 routes in Yosemite, no technical climbs were made in Hetch Hetchy. Climbers had told each other legends of half submerged walls rising out of water and accessible only by boat. Boats are not allowed on the reservoir and swimming becomes rather more difficult when carrying many pounds of hardware.

Once again the sun was setting but now we were on the summit to enjoy instead of fear the ending of the day. The urgency of the climb was gone, and the view was to be savored and indelibly imprinted in our memories. We walked over the top of the rock to where the stream flowing over Tueeulala Fall crosses the granite slabs. We washed. We savored. The wildness of the area was our reward. Nowhere was the hand of man visible. The day is long gone when only nature's grandest sights thrill the heart of man. Wilderness is such a rare commodity that any really untouched place is per se beautiful. Leaving Hetch Hetchy we were thankful for the experience just finished and for the discovery that Hetch Hetchy is not a total ruin after all. The dam which had ruined it in comparison with other wilderness areas fifty years ago, has saved it from being over used.

With so few actual locals, I feel Hetch Hetchy lacks a voice like so many other prominent areas have. And in some small way I want to squeak for the status quo...










-n

edit: I should be focusing on my Secret Santa project but you guys piqued my interest and I couldn't help myself.
Messages 41 - 52 of total 52 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
 
Our Guidebooks
spacerCheck 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

guidebook icon
Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta