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Guangzhou
Trad climber
Asia, Indonesia, East Java
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2012 - 01:33am PT
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Level 5 does involve Free Soloing the 15 meter 64 degree overhanging wall in our gym. We even loosen a couple of the handholds to see how they react to unforeseen danger.
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crasic
climber
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Oct 15, 2012 - 03:42am PT
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This just sounds awful.
Just terrible.
And as someone who's entire school experience was 70+% asian (95% asian elementary school, 70% middle school, 75% high school), I can tell you from first hand experience that the last thing these kids want or need is this kind of structure permeating all of their recreational activities.
Yes you are keeping more customers because the parents are satisfied, but you are hurting these kids.
They act out in ways you can't even imagine, and of course their parents don't know.
Edit:
A more on topic response. Planet granite (my local gym) has started putting QR codes on all their routes so yuppies who carry cell phones in the gym and are WAY to invested in what their facebook friends know they climb can scan the QR code and log the climb. There are also websites for beta that you can access by scanning the QR codes :/
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Guangzhou
Trad climber
Asia, Indonesia, East Java
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2012 - 04:37am PT
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What a broad and generalized statement to make. I've taught in American Schools overseas for a decade and I can honestly say I don't agree with you. These kids are pretty darn good. I see them around town, dealt with them at school, took them on trips across the country and overseas, never had an issues.
Structured time. Actually, I find that the pendulum has swung, kids have their life so structured that they don't know what to do when they have down time. Even in the gym, these kids are always asking me or my staff what route should I do next, instead of roaming and deciding for themselves. Amazes me, but....
Keeping parents happy, well that's a reality if these kids want to climb. Their parents have the money. Not every child who climbs here is enrolled in the program, those that are aren't acting or behaving any differently in the gym.
How is asking kids to track the routes they are doing hurting them exactly?
Why is them keeping track of their progress negative?
I rather have parents compare the kids journal with one another than have those same parents in here trying to make their kids prove they are better than the other kid.
We're basically letting the kids do what they want for 90% of the time, and using 10% of the time to record what they did so their parent can see something.Guess that's why I want a simple page format for this logbook.
Personally, as a parent, I don't mind my kids having down time and playing for the sake of just playing.
I wonder if your experience with Asian kids is different from mine because of where those kids grow up. I am referring to Asian kids, is your experience with Asian-Americans?
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crasic
climber
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Oct 15, 2012 - 04:52am PT
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With all due respect, your experience as a teacher and chaperon does not reflect the realities of what these kids end up going through. They will never act out directly against their parents or an authority figure.
Your original question wasn't posed as "how to best design a kids program", but "how do I impose this artificial structure on this activity to keep the parents happy". Obviously kids programs need some level of structure in order for them to get the most out of it, but when it comes to climbing, I don't think grade pushing or any other kind of route based logging is particularly useful except, of course, as bragging material for parents.
As for the other point, technically my peers were asian americans, since I'm in America, however a good portion of them were new immigrants.
Some portion thrive in the constant hyper-structured environment the culture imposes, but many burn out. The majority end up coping with it (and succeeding materially) but are borderline depressed. I've seen it first hand many times.
Edit: of course, my original assumption was that you were in the states too, I shouldnt be too presumptuous that the same holds in asia proper. Its just I've been observing my peers my entire life and these are just my observations.
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pell
Trad climber
Sunnyvale
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Oct 15, 2012 - 05:41am PT
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Use a skull-rating:
1 skull - able to find a gym
2 skulls - able to enter the gym
3 skulls - able to find a locker room
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1 kilo-skull - survived the first fall
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1 mega-skull - survived the first lead fall
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1 giga-skull - burned at <name> cemetery after failing at <name> project
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Guangzhou
Trad climber
Asia, Indonesia, East Java
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2012 - 07:47am PT
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crasic, the realities of these kids, let's agree to disagree. The third culture kids I deal with are very different from the Asians I dealt with in American public schools, that's for sure.
Artificially imposed structure, no, I am looking for a logbook for them to record what they naturally doing. The only artificial is them reaching the next level.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Oct 15, 2012 - 11:39am PT
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Why is them keeping track of their progress negative?
For real?
+ the freesoloing 50 ft. routes with loose holds? Joke or troll?
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Guangzhou
Trad climber
Asia, Indonesia, East Java
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2012 - 10:09pm PT
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Free solo was a joke. The whole point of the program is teach safe climbing with a wide understanding. The program is mostly set in hard skills, not climbing grades, but to progress from one level to another, you have to climb a selected amount of different routes. 10 routes, 15 routes, 25 routes. Different to encourage trying new routes. To many people get in the routine of doing the same thing over and over because it's comfortable.
More or less the program levels:
Awareness of safety rules and hazards, appropriate dress and behavior.
Putting on a harness.
Participate in warm ups.
Connecting harness to rope with a re-tied figure of 8 knot with stopper knot.
Climbing a chosen route with confidence.
Correct method of descending a climb.
Next level:
Safe belaying under supervision. (Belay with back-up belayer who is an instructor)(Ground anchors always)
Pre-climb checks.
Basic climbing moves.
Connecting self and others to rope with a re-threaded figure of eight knot and stopper knot.
Belaying and lowering using a suitable belay device.
Next:
Ground anchor systems. (When?)
Holding a fall in a bottom rope situation (belayer on ground with rope passing through top anchor).
Effective communication and teamwork with climbing partner.
Knowledge of climbing grades.
Selection of appropriate routes.
Effective safe use of a bouldering/ traversing wall.
Simple climbing technique - the use of feet and legs, relaxed upright stance, confident approach, smooth movement and observation of holds.
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Guangzhou
Trad climber
Asia, Indonesia, East Java
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2012 - 12:09am PT
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Blank paper is good idea to incorporate. Should work.
I learn from both Negative and Positive comments, so I don't mind.
To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.
― Aristotle
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