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Messages 921 - 940 of total 951 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
formerclimber

Boulder climber
CA
Apr 21, 2019 - 11:50am PT
Why is Yamnaya feminine yet the Afanasievo is neutral?


That's hard to say.
Upon the name Yamnaya:

The name Yamnaya was given by the archeologists who discovered the culture. They were Russians and named it in Russian: "yamnaya", which means "pitt-grave", after the burial sites that typified this culture and distinguished it from the otherwise similar neighboring "catacomb" (which is again a reference to the burial rites) culture . Now, one question could be if the Russian word Yamnaya shares its etymology with the Vedic Yama.

It's just a linguistic play. "Yamnaya culture" - "culture" is a female noun in Russian ("kultura"). So pit-burial culture gets female-sounding suffix "aya", to match "culture".
"Afanasievo culture" is neutral only in English version, it seems to be transliteration error that stuck around - it's real/original name is "Afanasievskaya culture".
There're different of versions of Russian word "yama" origin but none of them are Vedic, it would be a real stretch. (it seems like it's possible to bring Vedic origin under pretty much anything these days, there's whole school that likes to exercise in this)
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2019 - 11:57am PT

formerclimber

Thanks for making clear the Yamnaya - Afanasievo f. - n. form matter.

Then a tune from Finnskogen: Omkring tiggarn från Luossa - Jahn-Erik Rehn

[Click to View YouTube Video]
formerclimber

Boulder climber
CA
Apr 21, 2019 - 01:17pm PT
Which is the US region closest to having forests like this?
Makes me think of Michigan Upper Peninsula, or may be, Aroostook county, Maine.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2019 - 01:40pm PT

Areas of Michigan. Reilly has indicated areas in Wisconsin. Many Norwegians settled in Minnesota. Maine at a distance from the Great Lakes.

And areas of Canada as Fossil climber (Wayne) has indicated.
formerclimber

Boulder climber
CA
Apr 21, 2019 - 01:44pm PT
Yes, Maine is very far - Aroostook being "far Northern Maine" seems to have similar looking forests. I guess it's a combination of latitude (as far North as Michigan UP) and the required moisture level. The winter temps are about the same as in Northern MN/MI.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2019 - 01:49pm PT

You find these Northern forests all around the globe - in Norway, Sweden, Finland, Russia, USA, Canada... We have much in common.
formerclimber

Boulder climber
CA
Apr 21, 2019 - 01:52pm PT
For sure I've seen them in Russia (especially having spent much time in the wilds of Karelia)... in the US, there's a cutoff latitude - seems like only somewhere very close to Canadian border, not leaving a lot (or, needs higher altitude) + plus needs enough moisture, so this zone ends somewhere in MN not extending West.
I'm trying to map out these forests in the US for my trip.
If one gets a little South from Canada in the East - seems like too many deciduous trees...
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2019 - 01:58pm PT

If you have stories and/or photos from the wilds of Karelia you are very welcome to post them here. Three of my grandparents have roots leading back to Karelia around year 1600.

And please report from your US Northern forest trip...
formerclimber

Boulder climber
CA
Apr 21, 2019 - 02:24pm PT
I don't have photos; it's been long ago during Soviet times in the part of historic Karelia that was split off into USSR/Republic of Karelia. We lived on a boat/yacht throughout whole summers, traveling though remote parts of it. It was infinitely safer than now in term of crime there, but even then had to take care to keep to ourselves and not stop overnight by any settlements.
We did visit some hermits, like the guy who run a lighthouse on Onega lake near this Devil's Nose petroglyph site:
http://strana.ru/media/images/uploaded/gallery_promo21236824.jpg
or the guy who lived off smoking lake fish. It was a different time; places were quite wild and no humans for very long stretches. There're hermits there too now, though, and some families of homesteaders who live separately from everyone.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 21, 2019 - 03:07pm PT
US Finnskogen - N Minnesota, Upper Peninsula and a few parts of N Wisconsin, possibly a
few bits of N New York (but I haven’t been), and Maine. Maybe a couple small bogs in New Hampshire and Vermont.
formerclimber

Boulder climber
CA
Apr 21, 2019 - 10:01pm PT
It eventually morphed into Rus, the word for Swedish settlers and traders in what became northwest Russia, and along the great rivers leading to Miklegard. And Rus is thought by many to be the root word for Russian - the state that arose based at Novgorod in part had Swedish/Rus roots.

Rus is the origin of Russia, this part would be hard to dispute, Rus had been and is still a used name for Russia (internally)...The were several names/words among different nations transliterating into "Rus" before VIII, but seems like the dominant version now that it was Swedish Rus origin. Varangians, which were the type of Vikings, formed Rus population (though it's possible that they were given Rus name after some earlier, non-swedish local source). There was an old Swedish settlement in the place of Novgorod (Novgorod seems to be Holmgård in Scandinavian sagas) before there was "Novgorod" itself. Later, Varangian/Rus/Swedish Rurik (Hrøríkʀ) was invited to rule over Novgorod (by local Slavic, Finnish and, likely, Rus populations) in IX. Rurik became the Prince of Novgorod and started Rurikovich dynasty that ruled over Russia until early 1600s (but Romanovs were also mixed with Rurikovich). Russia (its statehood) had originated with the start of Rurik's rule in Novgorod.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2019 - 09:06am PT

formerclimber

I had to dive into the Varangians' Eastern story

Varangian/Væring

Varangian/Væring (Norse væringi m., plural væringjar — Ukrainian: Варяги - Varjahy; White-Russian: Варагі - Varahi; Russian: Варяги - Varjagi; Middle age Greek: οἱ Βαριάγοι - hoi Variágoi, undertiden: οἱ Βαράγγοι - hoi Varángoi, eller οἱ Βάραγγοι - hoi Várangoi), perhaps derived from the noun várar [fem. plur.] = promise, ed) is a common Norse term for the men who served in the guard force of the emperor at Miklagard (Konstantinopel). Væringer are a form of mercenaries in years 900-1100.

Væringer as a concept is related to or overlapping with the term varjager, "the sworn". They were men who traded east and south on the Russian rivers, or were looting as Vikings.

Archaeological discoveries on Gotland in the form of foreign coins indicate a western center for this trade, and that the trade was significant. Today, you can see traces of varangians in Istanbul, by seeing runes in Hagia Sophia.

The concept varangian usually included men from the Nordic countries, but could just as easily include anyone from western Europe, for example, Anglo-Saxons who fled from the Norwegians' conquest of England. Slaves and Byzantines did not distinguish between Northern Europeans.

The Russian Nestor Chronicle even included Danes and Englishmen as væringer or varangians. One of the most famous varangians was Harald Sigurdsson from Norway, the later King Harald Hardraade.

Væringer had driven trade in the Baltic Sea as far back as the 6th century. "He was killed in the East" or "he went in the eastern direction of the Gardarik" stands on runes in Sweden. Already when Helgö was a thriving trading place in Mälaren in Sweden in the 6th century there were contacts on the other side of the Baltic Sea.

Outlaws, violent men, adventurers, merchants and settlers from Sweden in particular and the other Nordic countries went to the east in the same way as they also went west. The mighty country in the east meant opportunities. The Russian rivers were the connection between buyer and seller of the expensive products of the Orient. Along the rivers, Norse men reached the Black Sea and in the year 839 and arrived in the city they called Miklagard - the capital of the great Eastern Roman Empire Constantinople.

Or the journey could alternatively go along the river Volga even further east to the Caspian Sea and carry on until they got in touch with Baghdad and the Arab world. A man who equipped a large-scale journey eastward was the Swedish “Ingvar den vidfarne” who has his own separate story.

In the wake of the adventurers and traders, settlers who formed Swedish "colonies" followed from the 700's. These Swedish settlers joined the native Slavic population and became the Russian Empire and later the Kiev Empire, which reached its peak in the 11th century. It was a kingdom that covered an area larger than Norway, Sweden and Denmark and the British Isles together and stretched from the Gulf of Finland in the north and almost to the Black Sea in the south.

Varangian and Rus

Norse settlers were probably an element of the early ethnic beginnings of society Rus and played a significant role in the formation of the Khaganaat Rus, a Slavic-Norse-century society in the 8th century that existed before the Kiev Empire. Varangians are first mentioned in the Russian Nestor chronicle, which was probably written down in the early 12th century, and these Varangians are told to have demanded tax from Slavic and Finnish tribes in 859. In 862 these tribes rebelled against the Varangians, but ended up with fighting against each other:

"(They) drove the varangians back over the sea, refused to pay taxes to them, and reckoned to rule themselves. But there was no law between them, and tribes stood up against tribes. The disagreement followed among them, and they began to fight one tribe against the other. They said to each other, "Let us search for a prince who can rule over us and judge according to our ways of living." Then they crossed the sea to the varangians, to Rus. These varangians were called Rus, just as some are called Swedes, and other Norwegians and Anglish, and others for Goths (from Gotland), because they were so called. The Chudas, the slaves, the kriviches and the vesens, they said to the Rus: "Our country is vast and rich, but there is no order in it. Come and reign and rule us. ”Three brothers, with their offspring, volunteered. They took with them all the Rus and came."

According to legend, these varangians or Rus came from "over the sea", a Rurik or Rørik and his two brothers Truvor and Sineus with other varangians and settled in the city of Novgorod. Rurik remained the ruler until he died in 879.

Although many historians look at the varangians of the 8th century as a legend, the historic settlement around the city the Norse called "Aldeigja", Aldeigjuborg (from Finnish Alode-joki = lowland river), was the current Staraya Ladoga, associated with the name Rurik ( Hrørīkr, Rurik, Riurik), the varangian who took control of the area in 862 and built Holmgard (Ryurikovo Gorodischtsje) in Novgorod around Lake Ladoga. Aldeigjuborg was the first major trading place on the road to the east and an important road junction between the trading roads of the time.

In the 8th century, it had as many as 1,000 inhabitants. Western historians believe that this Norse settlement merged with the Slavic settlement and formed the Kiev Empire, the Russian kingdom of Kiev, and thus renamed Russia. Although many Slavic scientists have objected to national considerations and denied that it was a Norse influence.

In contrast to the great Norse influence in Normandy and especially the British Isles, the culture that the varangians brought with them to the east left very few traces. The ruling classes in the two powerful cities of Novgorod and Kiev seem to have been slavified very quickly, probably because the hosts were a small minority and their language was displaced by Slavic. Nevertheless, Norse language was spoken in Novgorod right up to the 13th century, and hosts in the sense of mercenaries continued to serve the Eastern Roman emperor.

The Varangian Guard

The Varangian Guard was established in 930 and consisted of warriors from the Nordic countries who served as mercenaries for the Eastern Roman emperor. Those who returned home affected the surroundings with foreign impressions. The five-year-old church in the Danish city of Kalundborg bears influence from the east that was brought home by varangians.

In 839, Emperor Theophilus employed Norse men, orphans or warriors, as mercenaries in the guard force of Constantinople. Teofilos negotiated with the hostages he called "Rhos" to get mercenaries to his army. In the year 860, the varangians in Kiev had attacked Constantinople for the first time. The first attack was unsuccessful, but it did not prevent them from making new attacks, while other varangians were busy with peaceful trade. The varangians returned with new attacks in 860, 907, 911, 941, 945, 971, and the last time in 1043. Despite the constant attacks, the varangians were always defeated by the Emperor's army, especially by Greek fire.

Varangians were hired by the Kingdom of Novgorod and Kiev as mercenaries from the 8th century until the 11th century. The last time a varangian is mentioned as a mercenary in Russia is in 1043. If the reason was that they were no longer needed, or if the mercenaries had been assimilated into the community of the place and were no longer regarded as varangians, is open to speculation.

Translated by Marlow from the Norwegian Wikipedia
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 22, 2019 - 09:14am PT
The Varangians clearly believed that practice makes perfect. The Byzantines were clearly intent on using them to prove that the exception proves the rule.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2019 - 09:20am PT

Repetition clearly isn't all... Maybe it was a cover up to establish trade ^^^ Nothing new under the sun...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 22, 2019 - 09:31am PT
Interesting that the end of the Varangians’ visits to Constantinople nearly coincided with the first of the Vikings’ visits via the Pillars of Hercules, ikke sant?
formerclimber

Boulder climber
CA
Apr 22, 2019 - 09:48am PT
Varangians were hired by the Kingdom of Novgorod and Kiev as mercenaries from the 8th century until the 11th century. The last time a varangian is mentioned as a mercenary in Russia is in 1043. If the reason was that they were no longer needed, or if the mercenaries had been assimilated into the community of the place and were no longer regarded as varangians, is open to speculation.

The Varangians weren't one unified nation rather being groups, seems like...
Novgorod had "officially" founded around the same time it acquired Varangian ruler Rurik (the 9th century), and Kiev was conquered by Rurik's descendant Oleg shortly, in 882 AD (the event which started Kievan Rus state). Before that, Kiev was ruled by another Viking, Askold. So, while Novgorod and Kiev were ruled by Varangians and already had their population/Rus originally they seemed to be hiring outside Varangians as mercenaries for a century or two. The old pre-Novgorod settlement in its place was determined Swedish (probably "Varangian"). Igor (Ingvar) and Oleg (Helgi) - Old Norse names - were the names of Rurik's descendants which later became some of the most common names in Russia.

Oleg, who ruled immediately after Rurik: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleg_of_Novgorod
He was supposedly given a prediction to die through his horse by a fortuneteller, which caused him to let his horse go....later, he learned that his horse died and he came to visit its bones - he thought he had nothing to worry about then, but a snake bit him when he stepped on the horse's skull and he died. (but similar horse/snake story exists in Islandean saga about Norwegian viking Örvar-Oddr, so this might be a tale)
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2019 - 01:14pm PT

Ivar Bjørnson & Einar Selvik - Skuggsjá: [Click to View YouTube Video]

Skuggsja
Skuggsja
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2019 - 10:58am PT

And then a song about love and holy mountains: Ivar Bjørnson & Einar Selvik - Um Heilage Fjell: [Click to View YouTube Video]


Eyes pulled towards the holy peak
Clearly defined on the horizon
Each wind from there
Carries a memory of you

Certainty of your wit and nearness
Cures my lonely sorrow
Doubly sting the wounds
That nobody else can see

Guest in Dáinn's hall
Until you were reborn
To song of Norns, in weave of Norns
The thread strengthened by fortune
From former fathers, former mothers
You continue the lineage

Guest in Dáinn's hall
Until Norns spin you a new thread
From wind you were brought forth
By wind you will be brought back

From wind you were brought forth
By wind you will be brought back
formerclimber

Boulder climber
CA
Apr 23, 2019 - 10:40pm PT
These guys are very good too, Heilung (Othan - Odin):

https://youtu.be/h1BsKIP4uYM?t=3238

free license/ Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 Internation...
free license/ Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license; https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:20180801_Wacken_Wacken_Open_Air_Heilung_0019.jpg
Credit: Markus Felix | PushingPixels
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 24, 2019 - 12:55pm PT

The wilderness is here. To me the wilderness is not a place. It is the indefinable essence or spirit that lives in a place, as shadowy as the archetype of a dream, but real, and recognisable. It lives where it can find refuge, fugitive, fearful as a deer. It is rare now.

Credit: Marlow
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