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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Apr 22, 2013 - 05:02pm PT
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I was remembering Layton Kor this morning after hearing of his death. He was the one who ushered in the 1960's for me when he invited me to his parent's place for dinner so we could see a special television program that night. It was the Ed Sullivan show featuring the Beatles, and their first performance in America. What a great way to start off the decade!
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Apr 22, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
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As I was born in '61, I figured everyone was just crazy. Kid thoughts, man. Buncha freaks runnin' around. Madness.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Apr 22, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
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With regard to the war and its effects:
"...And yet he understood the other side; he understood the context of an older generation's sense of duty and moral charge based on their experiences in World War II. He understood the fear they must have felt, the outrage, the patriotism, the terrible years of sacrifice, perhaps even hopelessness, their lives swept away by the conduct of an unspeakable enemy, distant and unknowable and ultimately evil. But he also knew there was no such enemy for him to fight, that his war would be waged in a litigious environment of doubtful actions and equivocation, for imprecise reasons championed by unsure politicians, capricious and narcissistic, with little real investment, expecting unquestioning sacrifice from the innocent, asking everything from those whose only real possession was their youth. He wouldn't conform his will to such a reckless commission despite the consequences and despite his self-doubt. But obsessive by nature he studied the matter without rest. He knew his own generation was spoiled with the wealth of its fathers, coddled and healthy as no other generation in the history of humanity, and its expectations had been raised to the point of pathological grandeur. In the face of this "the war" seemed outside of any foreseen possibility and appeared only to demonstrate a rancorous infliction of one generation upon another."
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 22, 2013 - 06:20pm PT
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Have any of you ever been involved in protests?
I was born in 1950 and so was a teenager all through the 60s
as a student at the University of Minnesota from 1968-73 I marched and protested Vietnam
"we" were right to do so, and then Secretary of Defense McNamara later apologized for sending our boys to fight and die in Vietnam, he said it was wrong, at least he said it
While I strongly felt the "invasion" of Iraq was on very flimsy ground, I was too advanced in age to actually march or protest
guess I did my protesting at the voting booth
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Gene
climber
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Apr 22, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
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RIP
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Apr 22, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
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Hell yes I protested the war in Vietnam and I have never regretted it! If I was ever right about anything, it was how wrong that war was. That and backing the Civil Rights movement.
I started the 60's with Layton Kor and the Beatles and then I spent 1965-1969 in Berkeley with Frank Sacherer where we took part in many peace demonstrations. We switched our voter registration from Democratic to the Peace and Freedom Party and helped force Robert Kennedy to come out against the war just at the end of the Democratic primaries. Then we switched back. I also attended Black Panther rallies at Merritt Junior College in Oakland. It was the 60's after all, an era that began so innocently and ended in national suspicion and cynicism from which our nation has not yet recovered.
In my opinion, the Iraq war was more of the same - different people but similar cultural misunderstandings and political connivance, a mere generation later. This time I only protested at the ballot box. Each generation has or should have its causes. The greatest generation and the 60's generation did way more than their share. It's time for the younger folks to step up.
The political legacy of the 60's folks is secure.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 22, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
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Yes the 60's.....i was out of the army after serving three years in the Special Forces and going to school in Philadelphia. Someone mentioned there was going to be a march on the Pentagon. We went down on a lark, i got seperated from my friends in the great surge forward and found myself in a group on the front lines that was mostly feminine. Draft card burning ensued and to make a favorable impression on my new lady friends i put a match to mine.
Right move....i got where i wanted to go. My recently concluded service did not become a topic of conversation. Free love in the 60's sometimes had a small price attached.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2013 - 11:56pm PT
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g--
I wonderfully saw & heard Richie Havens at the Monterery Jazz in 1968. What a performer! He loved the audience and sang his heart out!
Freedom! Freedom!
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2013 - 12:07am PT
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Jan, technically it was two generations later, but you can slide. You were there.
It must have been hectic--I like slow and the ones who mattered were fast, too fast.
Slow wind, easy mind.
Fast wind, frantic mind.
Whirlwind, chaotic mind.
Vietnam and racial unrest produced chaos.
Which fertilized future peace while other hate seeds took root for the next gen to deal with.
from Donavoan--
Happiness runs in a circular motion
Thought is like a little boat upon the sea
Everybody is a part of everything anyway
You can have everything if you let yourself be
You can have everything if you let yourself be...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 23, 2013 - 12:14am PT
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The chaotic 60's bled into the more mundane 70's which morphed into the, everyone for himself, greedy 80's. One thing for sure, human nature doesn't change........the circular nature of history.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Apr 23, 2013 - 12:15am PT
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2013 - 12:29am PT
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Slick and SAC, the WAR MACHINE MECHS!
How to get more bang for your buck.
How to get better Napalm mileage.
Be the envy of your block, CARPET-BOMBING AT HOME!
(Don't call him z. Don't call him Brown.)
The Donini legend just got enhanced. Snake magic is taught in Spec Ops. Cuz it works...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Apr 23, 2013 - 04:05am PT
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The 60's generation was definitely divided between those who were political and those who were hippies.
Lots of ironies alright. Donini burned his draft card after serving in Special Forces and scored. I protested and ended up teaching touchy feely cross cultural classes to the military. The great thing about our country is that such contrasts are possible. Nobody could tell better anti war stories by the way, than the guys who had been there.
The Powell Weinberger Doctrine was initiated as a result of the military's lessons from that war which of course the politicians disregarded in their race to Baghdad.
Don't get involved unless there is a clear threat to our national security
Don't go without the support of the American people
Have clear cut and attainable goals
Fight to win
Have a clear cut exit strategy
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 23, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
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Have any of you ever been involved in protests?
It was interesting what this thread brought up for me. That and the release of the Redford movie "The Company You Keep". Haven't seen it, not sure if I will because so much of that time is romanticized.
My first experience was when my brother and I were to return to college. We both went to Penn in Philly. We left our home near Lake Erie and rather than turning Ease we turned West. "Where we goin?" Well we ended up in Chicago, August 1968 at the Democratic National Convention. If you are reading this thread then you probably know what that was all about.
It changed my life...my outlook...shook me up really bad. I became extremely active, SDS, not Weather and I never blew anyone or anything up or stuff like that. I do recall endless "criticism" sessions where we robustly debated what the line in the sand was from being a radical to becoming a revolutionary. Then May 4, 1970 happened...and more depth of despair about what was happening.
We knew stuff that had happened and was happening on the West Coast, primarily Berkeley, but we considered it all amateur stuff, just California hippies enjoying more fun in the sun. California was looked at at the place to go for easy communal living, but the REAL work was happening in Michigan and the East Coast...yeah Columbia!
Marching on Washington with the rooftops covered with gun toting National Guard was chilling. Being rounded up more times than I can count and being shuffled into RFK Stadium was getting to be pretty routine. Seeing lists of names of my friends eventually showing up in HUAC hearings and reports.
Those days shaped me, but they didn't end up owning me like those that had to go underground or paid a higher price.
Back then....
Susan
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Apr 23, 2013 - 12:48pm PT
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I remember policemen with big guns on the roofs overlooking Telegraph Avenue. And I was spit on by drunken sailors during a San Francisco Peace parade. Up to that point it felt like we were a small minority but during that parade for which hundreds of thousands showed up and you could see them stretched for miles up and down the hills of San Francisco, we knew we were not alone and were making progress even though Lyndon Johnson declared that he didn't care how many demonstrators were in the street he wasn't going to "tuck tail and run".
And mouse from merced, although the people sent to die in Iraq were two generations later than Vietnam and naive, our political leaders were not. Bush, Cheney and Rumsfield all were young during the Vietnam War and avoided the draft with various deferments. All the more shame they couldn't wait to send other people's teenage sons and daughters off to war.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 23, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
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All the more shame they couldn't wait to send other people's teenage sons and daughters off to war.
WORD WORD WORD...
Susan
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 23, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
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Bush, Cheney and Rumsfield all were young during the Vietnam War and avoided the draft with various deferments. All the more shame they couldn't wait to send other people's teenage sons and daughters off to war.
yep
and Cheney got FIVE "deferments", he said he had "other priorities" in his personal life
and Bush? He was AWOL from his Texas National Guard duty, messing around in a political rally out of state
god I hate people who act SO tough and beat the drums of war, and ducked service
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