Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
|
|
|
Sep 20, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
|
I think Dave has a point. The belay loop isn't going to break unless it's sawed most of the way through like this one apparently was. The main motivation to tie directly into the harness, is that it's like you have two harnesses on - the waist, and the leg loops. Each are tied in. I prefer to be tied in than to be clipped in, even if its a locking biner. I guess I'm thinking long routes and big walls. I just don't want to have to worry about whether I'm going to get disconnected from the rope because of some mistake.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 20, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
|
Its not just a spilled soda if a friend of mine died.
I miss Todd's infectious smile, and it pains me that he failed to K.I.S.S. and clip right in rather than add a ratted loop to the chain.
Sure, the loop is good in theory, but in reality this incident shows it is just another thing to go wrong.
|
|
sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
|
|
|
Sep 20, 2012 - 05:25pm PT
|
Sorry for the loss of your friend Ron. As much sh#t as you have given me and my crew I just had to poke back a bit........cheers to a bad ass life and this type of accident never happening again!!!
|
|
ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
|
|
|
Sep 20, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
|
if the belay loop were less safe than going through the tie-in point, then why do most if not all manufactures specifically instruct users to use the belay loop for rapping?
the reason is that unless the belay loop is majorly jacked, it's clean, simple, safe, quick.
so maybe the moral isn't to have two, three belays loops, or to rap at the tie-in point, so much as not to have a jacked belay loop.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 20, 2012 - 06:40pm PT
|
It probably will never happen to most of you people.
But guys like Skinner myself and various others didn't rely on checking our gear much.
We threw the stuff around and neglected it. Gear was just some annoying junk to deal with.
Most climbers love to fondle this garbage called gear and get all involved with it.
I hated dealing with that junk,
Thus if your stars were not aligned right sh!t happened.
RIP brother Todd .......
|
|
Riley Wyna
Trad climber
A crack near you
|
|
|
Sep 20, 2012 - 06:50pm PT
|
It probably will never happen to most of you people.
But guys like Skinner myself and various others didn't rely on checking our gear much.
We threw the stuff around and neglected it. Gear was just some annoying junk to deal with.
Most climbers love to fondle this garbage called gear and get all involved with it.
I hated dealing with that junk,
Thus if your stars were not aligned right sh!t happened.
With ya 100 percent!
|
|
Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
|
|
|
Sep 20, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
|
Good point by Werner, complacency plays a role. I wish I was 1/10th the bad azz Todd was, and hardly worried about the little stuff and could focus solely on the moves. Sadly we lost an amazing climber to what seems in hindsight like a minor detail. I agree with Ron, why add anything to your chain that is not necessary. Just my preference.
There is a lot worse safety lapses happening than using a belay loop to rap. I climbed with a partner who was instructed to untie the rope at belays on multi-pitch climbs. I told her not to do that with me. Double checked her anchors and technique after I saw her do that.
|
|
Hankster
Social climber
Zakynthos
|
|
|
Sep 20, 2012 - 07:11pm PT
|
Back in 1985(I was 15), James Crump had Todd and Paul Piana come all the way from Hueco down to Enchanted Rock to teach a "crack climbing seminar". I signed for that sh#t pronto and was amazed when they really showed up. Probably at most, 10 other climbers signed up. What stood out, has always stood out to me was how much gear those guys had!! Literally 100's of cams,widgets and rad thingys from Europe and literally 1,000's of carabiners!! What was amazing to me was ALOT.of his ovals were burned through, 1/3-1/2 way through, with rope wear. It was the damndest thing I'd ever seen, imagining what type of climbing could wear a rope 1/3 of the way through the carabiner and they're all fully still on the rack!!!
I waited till they weren't looking and swapped one of my brand new ovals for the burndest crab I could find and it wasn't a very long look. Just saying,when I heard how the hero of my youth ended up dying, this image is so very vivid 20+ tears later. Interesting perspective Werner, as always bro.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 20, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
|
Hank
About the ovals burned through.
When I was in Borneo the static lines were doing that thru mine from all the grit that got into the ropes.
Can happen in a few days really fast.
My figure 8 was burned half way thru in 3 days, burned all the teeth of my juggs and when I came back to the states people were freaking about it.
I told them stop worrying about this sh!t.
I loved looking at that figure 8 looking all burned thru.
I got so much sh!t from so many people about it I changed to a new one just to get them off my ass.
I put on the load test meter and broke it at 10 thousand lbs.
Ho man!
I miss that figure 8 .....
|
|
Hankster
Social climber
Zakynthos
|
|
|
Sep 20, 2012 - 07:30pm PT
|
Classic, I knew I was born a decade too late...
|
|
bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
|
|
|
Sep 20, 2012 - 08:37pm PT
|
This is appreciated.
RIP Mr. Skinner.
|
|
Lovegasoline
Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
|
|
|
Sep 20, 2012 - 10:35pm PT
|
Lot's of climbers run ghetto gear, I think it's fairly common.
I've never been one to really use the belay loop. I've generally just run a big ass locker around swami and leg loops that I rap and belay off of ... the control center feels a lot tighter and compact. Occasionally belaying from an anchor above I'll belay off the loop if my orientation/position feels a little awkward.
Ahh the trusty climbers' gear ghetto ... and all those fuzzed out ropes one has occasion to rely on over the years.
I'm lucky my XXyears old slings don't snap (20 yr old Tricams, 15 year old cam slings, et al).
(famous last words).
|
|
coz
Mountain climber
Northern surly
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 04:52am PT
|
I climbed tons before I was sponsored by Arteryx and then BD.
As I stated many times the BD belay loop is not bar tacked through all three layers.
But Tod had an Arteryx harness, that has one of the strongest belay loops made. He should have exchange it years before this accident.
Bottom line, certified guides or great climber may know very little about the gear they use.
I was trained and schooled by my sponsors.
The flaw is with an old harness used long after it should have been replaced, not with the belay loop, that should be clear to all.
It's such a tragic and preventable loss of a great climber and friend it still bothers me.
I never rig or climb in anything but the best gear in good condition. Replacing my harness, every six months to a year.
|
|
Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 06:24am PT
|
Just curious, does anybody remember when the "belay loop" first came out, and what the logic behind it was, ie;, less clutter, freedom, safer? I too was taught with a locker around both swami and leg loops (of course the "five carabiner brake"), to NEVER rely on one point, if possible. I'll belay off the loop but when rappelling, it just ain't right.
|
|
mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 06:54am PT
|
Rectorsquid, Dave,
Your words rang true.
But on a climb, there is no such thing as ever being "really safe."
You may say you feel really safe, and I will not care.
See the words chiseled in the ether at the bottom of every page of this website?
Our "hobby," as some unenlightinged inds call it at their own risk, is inherently dangerous. There are always risk. There is always hazards.
Sometimes you step on your rope. Sometimes you step on your dick. (Sorry, ladies.)
|
|
wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 09:44am PT
|
This doesn't change the basic principle that key components of the safety system should be backed up when reasonably and quickly possible.
When I rappel or clip in to an anchor with a poor stance, I back up the belay loop with a short sling, passed through the loop on the swami, and the leg loops (as mentioned up thread). I never girth-hitch the belay loop. If I wanted to back up the belays that I give with the same, it's easy.
|
|
BruceAnderson
Social climber
Los Angeles currently St. Antonin, France
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 10:16am PT
|
I've always understood the purpose of the belay loop is too keep the belay biner from being crossloaded or tri aixially loaded. The biner is always the weak point (assuming the softwear is in good shape), and It's so easy to load the gate when you clip into the swami and leg loops.
|
|
Rob Roy Ramey
Trad climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
|
Interesting, no mention of how rappelling with a self-belay would have saved him (e.g., using an ascender or prussik knot attached to the harness and NOT the belay loop). Rappelling with a self-belay has saved me more than once while rappelling under adverse conditions. Think of it very simple, no-cost life insurance.
As for belay loops, when I buy a new harness, I always cut off the belay loop and throw it away. To me, it is nothing but useless clutter.
|
|
FrankZappa
Trad climber
80' from the Hankster
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2012 - 01:27pm PT
|
Thanks for posting this. Good points on not girth hitching to belay loop. I do this (with two) sometime when cleaning an anchor, and will no longer do so.
I've seen people add a piece of 9/16 webbing on the inside of the belay loop, but really don't see what the big deal is. If it's wearing out, buy a new one! Pretty simple. It's not like belay loops are breaking every day sending hoards of climbers to their deaths; more like a freak occurrence on a harness most of would have retired long ago.
Wish Todd had retired that harness, miss that guy.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!