I Like the Atheist Life (OT)

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 881 - 900 of total 1116 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Oct 12, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
If Largo had something worthwhile to say, he wouldn't have to stoop to insults.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Oct 12, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
To say what Largo has said to me
Largo, you seem very closed minded and not able to see beyond your small perspective on the issue.
Are you a fundamentalist? can you see beyond the black and white?
??????
I'm just asking the questions
Can you see farther into reality, and see what we see?
Nothing

but only nothing in the sense that nothing that ANY spiritualist, apologist, or any religious person of faith says is true

We say no, it is not true, there is nothing out there that you say exists
We say it doesn't exist, so we term it as nothing
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 12, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
I'm feeling in an an ornery mood and feel the need to come to the defense of HFCS. The thing about describing the atheistic point of view is that all of the really smart people (who are atheists) converge on the same viewpoint. It's not just Sam Harris. Read two pages from any of the books by Steven Pinker, Richard Dawkins, or Daniel Dennet and you can't help but learn something about the world that you probably really never thought of before. These are some of the smartest guys on the planet (along with Ed Hartouni), in my opinion.

In re-reading this, I realized that I should be more clear about what I mean. What I meant to say is that when you read any of the 4 authors mentioned, you will learn new things about the world that are not only interesting (smart people like to think and talk about interesting things), but collectively consistent with our everyday sensibilities about the world. C'mon, the world is infinitely interesting and there are an infinite number of interesting things to know about and creative things to do in the world.

The theistic (including the "ghost in the machine viewpoint" of Largo's) starts with a (painfully) simplistic piece of inductive reasoning (that God or a universal consciousness exists and all of the other related crap which is largely dependent on where you were born) and tries to fit this hypothesis with all of the other facts from everyday life. To me, the most interesting phenomenon is the fact that smart people choose to suspend the instincts that have served them so well in their everyday lives and believe in the magical things required of their religious belief.
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
Oct 12, 2012 - 06:32pm PT
^^^^^^This one will definitly end up at the hot place!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 12, 2012 - 06:57pm PT
eeyonkee, there he is, cheering for the underdogs!

Thanks for doing your part, in the spirit of Weeg, to help keep things rowdy, stirred up, some!

.....

P.S.

This "Fruity" is merely just an affectionate nickname is all - designating me since I'm chock-full of fructose - fruit sugar - used on these "debate" threads. No harm, no foul, really!



Good to see you're a Pinker and Dennett fan, too, in addition to the others. New post by Harris, just today:

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/this-must-be-heaven

One neuroscience guy taking a neurosurgeon guy (who's about to make a ton of money; selling out on his science edu? you make the call) to the cleaners. It would be dramatic, really, if it weren't so damn frequent. The world we live in!
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Oct 12, 2012 - 07:01pm PT
There is nothing More Important to the advance of our society than stirring the pot

I hope to stir the pot until the day I die
WBraun

climber
Oct 12, 2012 - 07:03pm PT
Largo never said anything about a ghost in a/the machine.

You ever see a ghost driving a car or walking around in a coat?

Nope there's a live living entity driving the car and operating the machine (body).

There's a live living entity wearing the coat. (Body)

And you claim you and these guys are the most intelligent making stupid claims that ghosts are operating in our machines (bodies).

Not very intelligent making up sh!t about ghosts.

Life comes from life ......
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 12, 2012 - 07:06pm PT
I know what you're getting at, Largo. I just don't know that attempting to describe it verbally is the thing. Kind of like trying to write a symphonic score in words. I take the Taoist suggestion,"The way that can be known, is not the way" to mean you have to do it, not talk about, or analyze it.

I spend a lot of solitary time in the desert, and other places. I can just, be. I can lose sense of self. I think what that is, is beyond the scope of expounding on the internets. And is only experienced first hand. Sort of like the parable of the cave, or like they said in the Rocky Horror show-" don't dream it, be it"
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
Oct 12, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
I'm betting Largo could pummel eeyonkee early in the first round. I'm not suggesting this though as I abhor violence. Mt. Woodson would be a great place to hold this holy event.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 12, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
By the way, Largo and Timid's perspective re: "meditation" is (way) too narrow or restrictive as there are many species of meditation; in fact many concern a goal or objective or desired result. Either from within or without. Otherwise why meditate at all, what would be the purpose.

But never mind - or no mind - for now. :)

.....

Giegs,

I can certainly appreciate the attitude or perspective you expressed.

.....

btw, this is weird...



the droste effect
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 12, 2012 - 07:29pm PT
Screwy thing is to be accused of not getting or not thoroughly grasping a bottom-up materialist, antecedent forward causal take on reality. I can recite those positions and can virtually assure you of the next words and the next argument that will come out of Craig's mouth. What, exactly, is there to "miss" on how a materialist views the world. What is not clear? Dorks toss off glib rants like "a (painfully) simplistic piece of inductive reasoning" - not realizing that reasoning is not the entire game. Not even close.

Recently I have introduced the idea that self and experience are both "ungraspable." I couldn't have said this any clearer. And yet people come back with the fantastically screwy notions that I'm a theist preaching about ghosts in the machine and that I have a "belief" about "God" and am artificially constructing a contrived universe around this notion.

Fact is, ghosts and "God" are things people have ideas about, have pictures drawn from old time religion. But what I said was that experience and presence is ungraspable, not that there is a non-thing called a ghost, or an entity called God, that abides in us but dodges science somehow.

And Fruity: You said: Either from within or without. Otherwise why meditate at all, what would be the purpose.

The entire point is to get in there and discover the purpose directly. You're trying to reckon reality before you ever go there. You can't let go of thinking for even 20 minutes.

JL
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 12, 2012 - 08:40pm PT
Yesterday while on a run I had a moment of meditation - most of my meditating is spontaneous and I don't always come away with some grand idea, sometimes just the act of diving into my head and my thoughts seems like the thing to do. I fall into the habit of surpressing thoughts and compartmentalizing my feelings (often a trick that people who aren't really spiritual use to blindly follow the religion their parents shat on them) so its nice to allow free thought, if only for fleeting moments.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 12, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
re: meditation

A couple of points (beating a dead horse, perhaps)...

(1) meditate < meditare goes way back to ancient Latin (further than Late Latin) to mean... to reckon, contemplate, reflect or think - it's that basic (yeah, kind of like the words "spirit" or "faith" too)

(2) I found it interesting just now that wiki...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation

not only (a) describes "meditation" as a normative practice (meaning oriented toward a benefit (or goal)) but (b) actually cites "goal" in its opening sentence.

So there! :)

Here it is: "Meditation is a practice in which an individual trains the mind and/or induces a mode of consciousness to realize some benefit,[1] although it can be argued meditation is a goal in and of itself."

Or, as an alternative, how about... induces - in lieu of "a mode of consciousness" - an attitude? or a change of attitude?

Good night, all, thanks for the intellectual / spiritual stimulation, appreciate it!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 12, 2012 - 09:48pm PT
Here it is: "Meditation is a practice in which an individual trains the mind and/or induces a mode of consciousness to realize some benefit,[1] although it can be argued meditation is a goal in and of itself."
--

That's the beginning stuff. You anchor your mind onto your breath, or hitch it to a mantra. The problem with "training or inducing" is that this effort to control the mind is directed from the discursive mind or ego, in subtle ways that will make sure you never get past it. It is, in essence, trying to make meditation another cognitive exercise.

JL
Captain...or Skully

climber
Oct 12, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
Maybe you're doing it wrong.....
WBraun

climber
Oct 12, 2012 - 10:04pm PT
In this modern age people learn meditation from Wiki.

Nice and cheap just read some stuff and your in and know everything.

Mind all fixed up and done and remains stupid.

In the old days you go to Master. Knock on door.

Master opens door and scowls "Go away useless poseur".

Real student never leaves the front door.

Every day Master comes to the door and scowls at the student and slams the door in students face.

After many days Master leaves door open .......
splitter

Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 12, 2012 - 10:08pm PT
eeyonkee - here ya go bro! check this debate out...


edit: you may find Nassim Taleb particularly interesting, but they (all six) are, imo!

btw, eeyonkee + phantom x chimes in, cool! all we need is mr. badazz himself rick p & we got the nucleus of the PWMB/PWMM ... KILLER! who woulda thought, way back when, that ya'll cud meet here simultaneously while living in such diverse places? three cheers for one of the better aspects of current tech, eh?
Borut

climber
french
Oct 12, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
I'm not an atheist and not a theist, nawmean?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 12, 2012 - 10:40pm PT
Meditation;
Was first prescribed by God to Isaac to deal with his troubles. Way back in Genesis.
Then to Joshua. "This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall
"meditate" in it day and night"

Jus Ohmmm'in
BB
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 12, 2012 - 10:55pm PT
Gdavis wrote
I fall into the habit of surpressing thoughts and compartmentalizing my feelings (often a trick that people who aren't really spiritual use to blindly follow the religion their parents shat on them.

2nd step in becoming an atheist.

1st step denial.

Jus Observe'in
BB
Messages 881 - 900 of total 1116 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews