Criminalization of Dissent

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TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 14, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/10861-criminalizing-dissent


After Latest NDAA Challenge Hearing, Thoughts on the Criminalization of Dissent
Monday, 13 August 2012 10:07 By Chris Hedges, Truthdig | Op-Ed

I was on the 15th floor of the Southern U.S. District Court in New York in the courtroom of Judge Katherine Forrest on Tuesday. It was the final hearing in the lawsuit I brought in January against President Barack Obama and Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta. I filed the suit, along with lawyers Carl J. Mayer and Bruce I. Afran, over Section 1021 of the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA). We were late joined by six co-plaintiffs including Noam Chomsky and Daniel Ellsberg.

This section of the NDAA, signed into law by Obama on Dec. 31, 2011, obliterates some of our most important constitutional protections. It authorizes the executive branch to order the military to seize U.S. citizens deemed to be terrorists or associated with terrorists. Those taken into custody by the military, which becomes under the NDAA a domestic law enforcement agency, can be denied due process and habeas corpus and held indefinitely in military facilities. Any activist or dissident, whose rights were once protected under the First Amendment, can be threatened under this law with indefinite incarceration in military prisons, including our offshore penal colonies. The very name of the law itself—the Homeland Battlefield Bill—suggests the totalitarian credo of endless war waged against enemies within "the homeland" as well as those abroad.

"The essential thrust of the NDAA is to create a system of justice that violates the separation of powers," Mayer told the court. "[The Obama administration has] taken detention out of the judicial branch and put it under the executive branch."

In May, Judge Forrest issued a temporary injunction invalidating Section 1021 as a violation of the First and Fifth amendments. It was a courageous decision. Forrest will decide within a couple of weeks whether she will make the injunction permanent.

In last week's proceeding, the judge, who appeared from her sharp questioning of government attorneys likely to nullify the section, cited the forced internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II as a precedent she did not want to follow. Forrest read to the courtroom a dissenting opinion by U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson in Korematsu v. United States, a ruling that authorized the detention during the war of some 110,00 Japanese-Americans in government "relocation camps."

"[E]ven if they were permissible military procedures, I deny that it follows that they are constitutional," Jackson wrote in his 1944 dissent. "If, as the Court holds, it does follow, then we may as well say that any military order will be constitutional, and have done with it."

Barack Obama's administration has appealed Judge Forrest's temporary injunction and would certainly appeal a permanent injunction. It is a stunning admission by this president that he will do nothing to protect our constitutional rights. The administration's added failure to restore habeas corpus, its use of the Espionage Act six times to silence government whistle-blowers, its support of the FISA Amendment Act—which permits warrantless wiretapping, monitoring and eavesdropping on U.S. citizens—and its ordering of the assassination of U.S. citizens under the 2001 Authorization to Use Military Force, or AUMF, is a signal that for all his rhetoric Obama, like his Republican rivals, is determined to remove every impediment to the unchecked power of the security and surveillance state. I and the six other plaintiffs, who include reporters, professors and activists, will most likely have to continue this fight in an appellate court and perhaps the Supreme Court.

The language of the bill is terrifyingly vague. It defines a "covered person"—one subject to detention—as "a person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces." The bill, however, does not define the terms "substantially supported," "directly supported" or "associated forces." In defiance of more than 200 earlier laws of domestic policing, this act holds that any member of a group deemed by the state to be a terrorist organization, whether it is a Palestinian charity or a Black Bloc anarchist unit, can be seized and held by the military. Mayer stressed this point in the court Wednesday when he cited the sedition convictions of peace activists during World War I who distributed leaflets calling to end the war by halting the manufacturing of munitions. Mayer quoted Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes' dissenting 1919 opinion. We need to "be eternally vigilant against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe," the justice wrote.

The Justice Department's definition of a potential terrorism suspect under the Patriot Act is already extremely broad. It includes anyone with missing fingers, someone who has weatherproof ammunition and guns, and anyone who has hoarded more than seven days of food. This would make a few of my relatives in rural Maine and their friends, if the government so decided, prime terrorism suspects.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Benjamin Torrance argued in court that the government already has the authority to strip citizens of their constitutional rights. He cited the execution of Nazi saboteur Richard Quirin during World War II, saying the case was "completely within the Constitution." He then drew a connection between that case and the AUMF, which the Obama White House argues permits the government to detain and assassinate U.S. citizens they deem to be terrorists. Torrance told the court that judicial interpretation of the AUMF made it identical to the NDAA, which led the judge to ask him why it was necessary for the government to defend the NDAA if that was indeed the case. Torrance, who fumbled for answers before the judge's questioning, added that the United States does not differentiate under which law it holds military detainees. Judge Forrest, looking incredulous, said that if this was actually true the government could be found in contempt of court for violating orders prohibiting any detention under the NDAA.

Forrest quoted to the court Alexander Hamilton, who argued that judges must place "the power of the people" over legislative will.

"Nor does this conclusion by any means suppose a superiority of the judicial to the legislative power," Hamilton, writing under the pseudonym Publius, said in Federalist No. 78. "It only supposes that the power of the people is superior to both; and that where the will of the legislature, declared in its statutes, stands in opposition to that of the people, declared in the Constitution, the judges ought to be governed by the latter rather than the former. They ought to regulate their decisions by the fundamental laws, rather than by those which are not fundamental."

Contrast this crucial debate in a federal court with the empty campaign rhetoric and chatter that saturate the airwaves. The cant of our political theater, the ridiculous obsessions over vice presidential picks or celebrity gossip that dominate the news industry, effectively masks the march toward corporate totalitarianism. The corporate state has convinced the masses, in essence, to clamor for their own enslavement. There is, in reality, no daylight between Mitt Romney and Obama about the inner workings of the corporate state. They each support this section within the NDAA and the widespread extinguishing of civil liberties. They each will continue to funnel hundreds of billions of wasted dollars to defense contractors, intelligence agencies and the military. They each intend to let Wall Street loot the U.S. Treasury with impunity. Neither will lift a finger to help the long-term unemployed and underemployed, those losing their homes to foreclosures or bank repossessions, those filing for bankruptcy because of medical bills or college students burdened by crippling debt. Listen to the anguished cries of partisans on either side of the election divide and you would think this was a battle between the forces of light and the forces of darkness. You would think voting in the rigged political theater of the corporate state actually makes a difference. The charade of junk politics is there not to offer a choice but to divert the crowd while our corporate masters move relentlessly forward, unimpeded by either party, to turn all dissent into a crime.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Aug 14, 2012 - 11:41pm PT
A bunch of people on the rappelling El Cap thread want to put the rescued rapper in jail.

Jailed for a dissent gone bad!
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 14, 2012 - 11:46pm PT
budump bump!
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 14, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
Why arent the tea party types all over this?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 15, 2012 - 12:47am PT
No one cares because of provisions D and E:

(d) Construction- Nothing in this section is intended to limit or expand the authority of the President or the scope of the Authorization for Use of Military Force.

(e) Authorities- Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.

Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Aug 15, 2012 - 01:00am PT
The attempt to remove our liberty for our own safety is bipartisan.


It's about the idea of safety. It seems a vast majority of people are very scared of not being safe. (probably a concept that a bunch of rock and mountain climbers can't even get to)


I heard that some great philosopher once said something on the order of:

"The opposite of Freedom is Security."
Nohea

Trad climber
Living Outside the Statist Quo
Aug 15, 2012 - 03:38am PT
The attempt to remove our liberty for our own safety is bipartisan.

My two favorite books both available free online; Lysander Sooner, No treason, and Albert Jay Nock's Enemy of the State. Yes it is bipartisan.
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Aug 15, 2012 - 04:07am PT
So from a ground's up perspective how do we tackle this problem? Where do we lean our weight? On a problem of this magnitude how do we make change and not just scream at the sky?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 15, 2012 - 09:29am PT
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/13/in-assassinating-anwar-al-awlaki-obama-left-the-constitution-behind.html

Somewhere in there, I think the line of "if you are a threat, we can target you" got crossed and was changed to "IF WE THINK you're a threat we can target you."

Bad, bad road to go down in my view.

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Aug 15, 2012 - 09:44am PT
Anyone else here, besides myself, who contacted their representatives in opposition to the NDAA act?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 15, 2012 - 10:35am PT
Got Fear? (a play on the Got Milk campaign)

Ken M wrote
d) Construction- Nothing in this section is intended to limit or expand the authority of the President or the scope of the Authorization for Use of Military Force.

(e) Authorities- Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.

Well Ken, if d and e are supposed to make everything okay, then explain why we need this law? The government lawyer was unable to, maybe you can

Assistant U.S. Attorney Benjamin Torrance argued in court that the government already has the authority to strip citizens of their constitutional rights. He cited the execution of Nazi saboteur Richard Quirin during World War II, saying the case was "completely within the Constitution." He then drew a connection between that case and the AUMF, which the Obama White House argues permits the government to detain and assassinate U.S. citizens they deem to be terrorists. Torrance told the court that judicial interpretation of the AUMF made it identical to the NDAA, which led the judge to ask him why it was necessary for the government to defend the NDAA if that was indeed the case. Torrance, who fumbled for answers before the judge's questioning, added that the United States does not differentiate under which law it holds military detainees. Judge Forrest, looking incredulous, said that if this was actually true the government could be found in contempt of court for violating orders prohibiting any detention under the NDAA.
Bullwinkle

Boulder climber
Aug 15, 2012 - 10:46am PT
Why would the government make rappelling a criminal offense? Is this because of the recent El Cap rescue?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 15, 2012 - 11:59am PT
^^^
Yes. Wikileaks.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 15, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
When they make rappelling a crime only criminals will rappel.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 15, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
When you get rid of due process for US citizens, YOU could be taken out and SHOT for just about ANYTHING they decide to be dissent.

There is more than a bit of hyperbole in this issue, but also very real concerns.

Citizens are killed without due process in the United States anytime a law enforcement officer (as opposed to a "correctional" officer) kills them. Whether we like it or not, we have given the government, in the form of the police, that discretion to determine when a person is such a present threat to public safety that officers may shoot to kill.

The difference between a legal officer shooting and the issue being decided in court deals with the time element. A legal officer shooting always involves some form of emergency, i.e. someone who poses a danger so immediate that resort to legal process would be pointless. The NDAA issues differ from the typical "emergency" situation because the government has time to deal with legal process, but doing so publicly would make the intended action impossible.

While, as Ken M points out, clauses D) and E) state that the NDAA is not expanding the military's rights against US citizens, that begs the question of why it is needed in the first place. The short answer by NDAA defenders is that it is simply a funding measure, but the language in that act doesn't really limit it to mere funding authorization.

To me, the best argument for the NDAA's enactment is that when someone is actively engaged in committing acts of war against the United States, the United States has an inherent right to self-defense, including killing the warring persons. That still leaves the issue of the discretion of those who use these powers. I think most Americans trust the discretion of the military and law enforcement. I rather suspect that the plaintiffs in the lawsuit do not.

John
~kief~

Trad climber
state of Awakening
Aug 15, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Latitute 33
Aug 15, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
I think most Americans trust the discretion of the military and law enforcement.

I'm not so sure of that. And that is the problem with such laws, it places all of the "discretion" in the hands of the military and law enforcement. Unchecked power will ALWAYS be abused.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 15, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 15, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
JEleazarian said
I think most Americans trust the discretion of the military and law enforcement.
There has been an unacceptably large number of deaths of innocent and unarmed civilians at the hands of Law Enforcement here in California over the past few years. Most of them when it's several LEOs vs one unarmed civilian; very seldom 1 on 1.

I won't bore you with even a partial list in the Bay Area in the past 5 years.

so NO, I don't trust the discretion of US law enforcement, even though I'm a "law abiding citizen". In this country, the modus operandi for LEO is shoot first and ask questions later.

However, to the main point, a distinction has to be made between warfare and civilian law enforcement. Guerrilla war has always, deliberately, blurred the lines which is part of what makes it effective.
As a nation, we have a right to defend ourselves from attack, external or internal, formally declared war or subversive attack, inside or outside US borders.

The separation of powers is perhaps the most important principle of our Constitution. Nearly all law and activities of government fall under its rubric.
"The essential thrust of the NDAA is to create a system of justice that violates the separation of powers," Mayer told the court. "[The Obama administration has] taken detention out of the judicial branch and put it under the executive branch."
As pointed out in the article, the Executive has been blurring this line throughout history. Interning the Japanese during WWII was far from the first major instance. This is indeed a serious concern.

Given this is true:
It defines a "covered person"—one subject to detention—as "a person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces."
I don't draw the "terrifyingly vague" conclusion. It seems to me quite specific and bounding.

Forrest's appeal to Hamilton under the Publicus pseudonym is ad hominem rather than derived from the Constitution, case law or Supreme Court decisions.

So I'm not certain this issue is criminalization of dissent, rather it's the more fundamental separation of powers doctrine. Part of the intent of separation of powers IS to avoid criminalization of dissent.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 15, 2012 - 06:48pm PT

Why did this guy


just buy 341,000 shares of Facebook?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 15, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
Great Post Couch. My sentiments exactly.

Good thing we're a powerful country that can act murderously without consequence.

Would be interesting what we would say if Iranian American citizens who called for the bombing of Iranian Nuclear Facilities suddenly started getting their homes blown up here in the states. Iran just fighting terrorism against them right?

I think most Americans trust the discretion of the military and law enforcement.

Huh? Remember Jessica Lynch Lies, Saddam statue toppling set-up? Tilman? not to mention a bunch of little massacres proved to be covered up after the fact. Give em too much power and they abuse it. Homeland security laws have already been used against drug dealers and even to track down democratic congressmen from Texas who left to avoid a vote.

Much Less Law Enforcement. A friend was telling me (petite girl) that she got lost in Alameda and stopped to ask a cop how to get back to the freeway. She was totally straight. He got it in his head that she was on Meth and they took her to jail overnight and impounded her car! Tests came back negative for everything but they wouldn't even return her driver's license.

Less safety, more freedom. I'm fine with that. Too much wimpiness and fear used to control people in this country and it's going to get worse as they know our economy is going to tank no matter who wins the election

Peace

Karl
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 15, 2012 - 07:11pm PT
Watch it with that subversive talk Karl, could find your name on the List if it isnt already there. NSA probably already processing this thread as we speak

USA, USA, USA!!!
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Aug 15, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
Less safety, more freedom.

I'm all for that! It sounds like something a rock climber might say.

I was telling my dad a few years back about learning to do Eskimo rolls in my kayak. he didn't want to hear anything about it because it made him scared that I would die.

I hate to say it but I think that my dad is the type of person who would love to give up all freedom to be totally safe. He would certainly think less of me for even suggesting that the president has too much power and he might even tell me to keep quiet so I don't get scooped up and sent to gitmo.

We are a nation of wimps and paranoids for sure. It's a shame that the irrational fear is of terrorists and not a fear of an overreaching government.

Dave
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 15, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
FINALLY some people are getting it. After 9-11 John Ashcroft pulled a massive bill out of his desk, The Patriot Act.

The 4th amendment has been trampled. We get spied on, and since this post is available overseas, is read by the NSA, just like most internet traffic does.

All of this information on innocents, which is probably about 99,999 out of 100,000, or even more, is gathered and stored.

Long live Wikileaks, and Facebook is freaking evil in how much info it collects on you as you surf along outside of their own site.

Seriously. Check your cookies. Google Analytics follows you everywhere. Even this site, which is as clean as it comes from spy bots, is now hitting me with two companies tracking me: Google Adsence and Google Analytics.

There is a pretty good privacy browser add on right now that you can get here:

http://www.abine.com/dntdetail.php

When you load this up (free, with five stars from CNet), you will visit some websites that hit you up with over 20 tracking companies.

Facebook really freaked me out when one day I was reading a news article on Yahoo and down in the corner it listed my facebook friends who had read the article. Jaybro was one of them. I don't even know Jaybro, but it makes you look rad if you friend him.

I unplugged from Facebook after I figured out how YOU are the product, and realized that now an incredible amount of what you had thought was personal information is now all in one place with your name and address attached. Not just an IP address like the olden days.

I have been really upset that Obama hardened up the Bush laws instead of easing off of the surveilance society. He has done the opposite. To prevent terrorism, which as pointed out above is vague, we have given up a lot of personal freedoms. John Lennon isn't the only one with an FBI file now. We all do.

Just because we are now in a constant state of war with these guys doesn't mean that we should water down the bill of rights over it.

When I first heard of Wikileaks, I thought the guy was a madman. Now it seems like they are the only outlet to keep our leaders in check. So good on them. Lets see how long they last.

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 15, 2012 - 08:27pm PT
I have a friend who is a criminal defense attorney after a long stint in the DA's office in Dallas.

He told me to not only turn off my phone when traveling or meeting, but pull out the battery. Better than that, leave the sucker at home.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 15, 2012 - 08:48pm PT
So the way I read this the military should shortly be cleared to start taking
down the Bloods, Crips, and MS13. They're terrorists, aren't they?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 15, 2012 - 09:14pm PT
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/15/opinion/oconnell-targeted-killing/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

When are drone killings illegal?

Editor's note: Mary Ellen O'Connell holds the Robert and Marion Short Chair in Law and is research professor of international dispute resolution at the Kroc Institute for Peace Studies at the University of Notre Dame. She is a specialist on the international law of armed conflict and is the editor of "What Is War? An Investigation in the Wake of 9/11" (Martinus Nijhof/Brill, 2012).

(CNN) -- The Bush and Obama administrations' extraordinary program of targeted killing has resulted in the deaths of as many as 4,400 people to date. Books such as Daniel Klaidman's "Kill or Capture" and David E. Sanger's "Confront and Conceal" are appearing thick and fast, focusing on the program and particularly on the use of drones to carry it out.

The belated scrutiny is welcome. Yet it still fails to critically assess the essential question: Is this killing occurring in war?

Both Presidents Bush and Obama have attempted to justify thousands of drone attacks as part of a "war" or "armed conflict." But is that correct?

Mary Ellen O'Connell
The question must be answered in terms of international law. When the United States kills people in foreign, sovereign states, the world looks to international law for the standard of justification. In war, enemy fighters may be killed under a standard of reasonable necessity; outside war, authorities are far more restricted in their right to resort to lethal force.

Independent scholars confirm that many drone attacks are occurring outside war zones. These experts know the legal definition of war, and they understand why it is important to know it: Above all, protecting human rights is different in war than from protecting them in peace.

News: Pakistan spy agency chief to tell CIA: End drone strikes; ID targets for us to attack
Admittedly, this dual standard for justifiable killing makes the law protecting the right to life more complicated than the law protecting other fundamental rights. Torture, for example, is absolutely prohibited in international law at all times, in war and peace.
'Drones completely counterproductive' Barack Obama's 'lethal presidency' Obama's secret wars

The law on killing is different. The human right to life codified in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, to which the United States is a party, prohibits the "arbitrary" deprivation of life. It does not prohibit absolutely all taking of life.

The military may use lethal force against enemy fighters during an armed conflict if the use of force meets the requirements of military necessity, and if it will not have a disproportionate impact on civilian lives and property. Countries may lawfully initiate armed conflict in self-defense if the state is the victim of a significant armed attack, as long as the self-defense is carried out against the state responsible for the armed attack.
President Bush declared a "global war on terror" after 9/11 to, presumably, gain the advantage of more relaxed rules on killing and detention. Some of the same lawyers who tried to develop legal cover for the use of torture produced an even flimsier analysis of why the entire world was a war zone, so that the president could authorize killing and detention of individuals worldwide.

Lawyers in both the Bush and Obama administrations have reportedly prepared memos that according to the media assert the CIA may lawfully conduct so-called "targeted killings" of the "war on terror" without violating President Reagan's ban on assassination. Legality seems to turn in this analysis on the president personally approving a "kill list."
In November 2002, the first killings occurred under this "global war" assertion. Six people, including a 23-year-old American, were killed by Hellfire missiles in Yemen fired from CIA-operated drones based in Djibouti. The UN special rapporteur for extra-judicial killing condemned the attack as an arbitrary deprivation of the right to life, but it would take over six years and a change of party in the White House before human rights advocates, international law scholars, moral philosophers, theologians, and others would begin to focus on targeted killing as they had focused on the use of torture.

Why has it taken so long to focus on so many questionable deaths? As already indicated, the law is more complicated on killing than on torture. To make the legal argument against targeted killing requires sophisticated knowledge of a broader range of international law than is involved in defending a human right such as the right to be free from torture.

Also, the Bush administration carried out fewer targeted killings: Of the 336 attacks as of July 2012 in Pakistan, 284 have occurred under Obama. Bush officials were better able, therefore, to suppress discussion. Also, human rights advocates had their hands full with the more visible problems of the Bush era: torture, Guantanamo Bay and military commissions. A number of them then joined the Obama administration; rather than condemn targeted killing as the violation of international law that it is, some former critics are defending it, presumably as part of their job.

The job of the International Law Association is to report on international law in a scholarly and objective fashion. The ILA has had a Committee on the Use of Force for decades. From 2005 to 2010, when I was its chair, the 18-member committee, including members from five continents, undertook to produce a report on how "war" is legally defined.

That report assesses hundreds of violent incidents over a period of 65 years. It concludes that under international law, war or armed conflict exists only when there is intense inter-group fighting by organized armed groups.

These are objectively verifiable criteria that cannot be fabricated by politicians. The International Committee of the Red Cross recently invoked them with respect to the violence in Syria. The situation in Syria became a civil "war" when organized armed groups were fighting with intensity of some duration.

Targeted killing with drones in Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan have generally violated the right to life because the United States is rarely part of any armed conflict in those places. The human right to life that applies is the right that applies in peace.

Today, the United States is engaged in armed conflict only in Afghanistan. To lawfully resort to military force elsewhere requires that the country where the United States is attacking has first attacked the United States (such as Afghanistan in 2001), the U.N. Security Council has authorized the resort to force (Libya in 2011) or a government in effective control credibly requests assistance in a civil war (Afghanistan since 2002).
If the president has been advised otherwise with regard to his "kill list," he should read "What Is War?"
Nohea

Trad climber
Living Outside the Statist Quo
Aug 15, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
what is implied in a government's resting on consent?

Manifestly this one thing (to say nothing of the others) is necessarily implied in the idea of a government's resting on consent, viz: the separate, individual consent of every man who is required to contribute, either by taxation or personal service, to the support of the government. All this, or nothing, is necessarily implied, because one man's consent is just as necessary as any other man's. If, for example, A claims that his consent is necessary to the establishment or maintenance of government, he thereby necessarily admits that B's and every other man's are equally necessary; because B's and every other man's right are just as good as his own. On the other hand, if he denies that B's or any other particular man's consent is necessary, he thereby necessarily admits that neither his own, nor any other man's is necessary; and that government need to be founded on consent at all.

There is, therefore, no alternative but to say, either that the separate, individual consent of every man, who is required to aid, in any way, in supporting the government, is necessary, or that the consent of no one is necessary.

Clearly this individual consent is indispensable to the idea of treason; for if a man has never consented or agreed to support a government, he breaks no faith in refusing to support it. And if he makes war upon it, he does so as an open enemy, and not as a traitor that is, as a betrayer, or treacherous friend.

All this, or nothing, was necessarily implied in the Declaration made in 1776. If the necessity for consent, then announced, was a sound principle in favor of three millions of men, it was an equally sound one in favor of three men, or of one man. If the principle was a sound one in behalf of men living on a separate continent, it was an equally sound one in behalf of a man living on a separate farm, or in a separate house. .

Lysander Spooner "no treason" written after the north proclaimed to set slaves free yet enslaved all in the same war.

Dissent? As a patriot I must.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 16, 2012 - 10:14am PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Amen. Preach it brother!

Welcome to the NWO.

So let me get this straight ...

If I go out marching in the streets, exercising my Bill of Rights as a believer, as a Messianic Jew/Gentile, shouting to high heaven for the end to War, War profiteering by the Miltary Industrial Spy Complex, and Corporate greed, in the name of my Lord and Savior, Yeshua HaMashiakh (Hebrew), (Jesus Christ The Messiah, Greek) and preach his message of peace and the sharing of wealth and caring for others less fortunate, then now I'm an enemy of the state and can be arrested, lose all my Constitutional Bill of Rights and be "Gitmo-ed" and be held indefinately by our government?

Gee, sounds like ancient Rome. It isn't much different than Nazi Germany. No wonder they pulled the program from Jesse Ventura's Conspiracy program on the FEMA camps that are now built and ready across the nation. Can't have people knowing the truth.

Well you can google that episode and watch it.

Sad, sad times we are living in. Even our Constitutional Law Professor/Lawyer President won't stand up. It's going even further under his watch.

Shame.


Stand up and shout how wrong this is!!!!
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Aug 16, 2012 - 10:29am PT
This legislation already exists. Bush put it in place after 9-11. We lost these rights a long time ago.. just no one noticed. The government has been doing this sh#t ever since the Homeland Security Act was initiated.


Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Aug 16, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
"Those who would trade liberty for security will soon have neither."

Benjamin Franklin
cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Aug 16, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
Banksters Take Us to the Brink -- Bill Moyers

http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/10313-banksters-take-us-to-the-brink

"And you wonder why the banksters still roam free, like gunslingers in a Wild West town without a sheriff."
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Aug 16, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
Almost all the laws of the past 50 years are a direct result of the Hegelian Dialectic, one of the cornerstones of Marxism.

In the dialectic, one side states a position, or THESIS.

A second side proposes an arguement opposing, or ANTITHESIS.

The supposed "result" come in between, and is the SYNTHESIS.

So, we have one group of Demotards stating a position, and is immediately countered by the Republitards, then they "compromise" and we all get screwed over. That's the way it works in a "two party system." Both sides are essentially being run by the same shadowy figures, contributing the necessary $$$ to win elections.

So...who's really controlling all this, you ask? Answer: you'll never find out. And, you really wouldn't like the answers.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 16, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
"I still say it moves."

Galileo
tarek

climber
berkeley
Aug 16, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
Wow, so here's the place on ST where a lot of the posters actually think.
Others would crack the bedrock and say that we are safer as a nation, but don't seem to grasp the profound transformation that implies. There have been/still are quite a few super "safe" nations in the world. Not great company.

For those who attribute phenomenal powers of intellect, clairvoyance, and accuracy to our current President, this question: how do you feel about the next 5 Presidents having the same--or more far-reaching--"legal" tools as this one does?
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Aug 16, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
Doesn't anyone else here find it a bit strange that in a matter of just a few days after 9-11, there was a massive bill presented to Congress, THAT NONE OF THEM EVEN READ, and passed almost unanimously as the PATRIOT ACT?

I for one, smelled a rat. Anyone protesting it's passage was shouted down and called a lunatic, or worse, A CONSPIRACY THEORIST!

The bill was over 5,000 pages of measures that allowed the Gubermint to spy on, x-ray, strip search (or at least pat down invasively), and regulate our activities at an unprecedented level. None of our elected officials managed to wade through it before it was placed before a vote.

B.O.'s former chief of staff at the White House, Rahm Emmanual said it clearly, in the open: "Never let a good crisis go to waste."
cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Aug 16, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
America the Beautiful: A Fire Sale for Foreign Corporations

http://truth-out.org/news/item/10195-america-the-beautiful-a-fire-sale-for-foreign-corporations

An end run around all US law and regulation that corporations dislike. The US multinational often is the "foreign business":

The leaked document reveals that the trade agreement would give unprecedented political authority and legal protection to foreign corporations. Specifically, TPP would (1) severely limit regulation of foreign corporations operating within US boundaries, giving them greater rights than domestic firms; (2) extend incentives for US firms to move investments and jobs to lower-wage countries; and (3) establish an alternative legal system that gives foreign corporations and investors new rights to circumvent US courts and laws, allowing them to sue the US government before foreign tribunals and demand compensation for lost revenue due to US laws they claim undermine their TPP privileges or their investment "expectations."

http://rt.com/usa/news/tpp-obama-corporations-trade-725/

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Aug 16, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
Aren't you really glad we don't get all the government we pay for?
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Aug 16, 2012 - 04:49pm PT
Dingus:
"We didn't lose sh#t. The American people chicken-littled their rights away, willingly, in the panic attacks after 911. Coz up there is the perfect example."

I actually agree... I'll amend my statement to say "we gave awayour rights willingly after 9-11".

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Aug 16, 2012 - 05:21pm PT
Justthemaid--

Mine were taken from me by politicians, without my consent (of the governed?). This is another reason the U.N is so all-fired hot to pass the "small arms treaty" before the masses of the world really get pissed!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 16, 2012 - 11:13pm PT
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/social-security-administration-explains-plan-buy-174000-hollow-point-bullets
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 17, 2012 - 12:28am PT
We get the government that a few of us actually vote for but most just whine about.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Aug 17, 2012 - 10:31am PT
Not mentioned here in this thread or in the cns article is the additional order for 750 million rounds of ammunition by DHS (Department of Homeland Security).
Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Aug 17, 2012 - 10:39am PT
Hollow point rounds to boot. As far as I know hollow points cannot be used in a military action or war but can be used against citizens. Seems a little goofy.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Aug 17, 2012 - 10:52am PT
Not unusual for DHS to bid out large amounts of ammo. Target practice uses up most of it. But of course, they are practicing to be able to handle the dissenters, lol.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Aug 17, 2012 - 11:17am PT
Added to the previous order for 450 million rounds of ammunition comes to 1.2 billion rounds of ammo for DHS!

Using a figure the British army used during W.W. II, that's enough ammo to completely wear out 80,000 machine guns. That's a life expectancy of 15,000 rounds per gun.
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Aug 17, 2012 - 11:23am PT
Google "fourteen points of fascism" (a study of fascism) it is a document that summarizes the similarities of the major fascist states. The gist of the document is government serves corporations and uses the government employees to do its bidding including the police force/military, religeon is used to help control the population. The hallmarks of the document are striking when you see how closely they fall in line with what is happening in the U.S. They use fear to get things rolling and before the citizens know it they have control...

Think they are gonna have to control the population after they renege on the Social Security promises that were made but wont be kept?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Aug 17, 2012 - 11:32am PT
Lol, brokedown. Yeah, they are planning on mass culling the dissenters and make a very public purchase of ammo. Better buy some ammo yourself, and hunker down in your bunker.

We've gone thru the figures before. Target practice consumes a huge amount of ammo. Remember, DHS includes the Coast Guard, and others. They practice constantly.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Aug 17, 2012 - 11:41am PT
Monolith-
I view that purchase of ammo as a "warning" to the masses, and that's why it's public. And no, I don't have a bunker mentality. I DO have a "fair amount" of ammunition myself.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Aug 17, 2012 - 11:44am PT
It's easy for the paranoid to find the indicators that support their positions. What you are afraid of would result in a civil war.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Aug 17, 2012 - 11:46am PT
"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get ya."
Caveman

climber
Cumberland Plateau
Aug 17, 2012 - 11:52am PT
Wonder if all this ammo buying has anything to do with the rumor that TVA is having a hard time filling their ammo quota. That would be about par for the US to arm all the Barney Fife's and leave reactors unprotected.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Aug 17, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
Those ammo contracts are not for immediate or even scheduled delivery. They are for up to a possible maximum amount spread out over 5 years.

Of course InfoWars and other bullshit sites will try to provoke fear. It's how they make money.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 17, 2012 - 01:03pm PT
All you have to do is look at the Laws Bush passed and that Obama still supports to know that the Elite and powerful in this country foresee social and political (based on economic collapse probably) upheaval on the horizon and are making plans to control the angry backlash when the people realize they've been sodomized by those who only care for their own security, wealth and power

PEace

Karl
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Aug 17, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
Karl-

Clearly and well stated.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 17, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
A hundred million rounds here and a hundred million rounds there and pretty soon you have a decent stash of ammo.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Aug 17, 2012 - 09:06pm PT
Putting these numbers in some sort of perspective...

let's assume that the 1.2 trillion rounds constituted a 5 year "requirement." For training? I did a quick calculation on how much ammunition the 4 U.S. Infantry Divisions carried along as personal ammo loads onto Omaha and Utah beaches on 6 June 1944. A footslogger carried the U.S. M1 Garand and 2 bandoliers of ammunition, each of 8-8 round chargers of .30-06. That's 128 rounds per soldier carrying a rifle. Specialists and officers carried either the M1A Carbine or the M1911 Colt pistol. I'm using the full organizational TO & E at 20,000 men per division for a total of 80,000 men each carrying 128 rounds. For an assault against a powerful, skilled, and well-entrenched foe, that was only 20.4 million rounds. A yearly use of ammunition for training the military might be 2000 rounds per soldier, and that includes machine guns and automatic rifles. The average LEO is lucky to burn through 500 rounds a year, but usually less.

Bottom line here is 240 million rounds for DHS is absurd unless, as Karl stated, there is official nervousness about domestic violence due to an economic collapse.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 17, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
Bottom line here is 240 million rounds for DHS is absurd unless, as Karl stated, there is official nervousness about domestic violence due to an economic collapse.

If I was trying to explain that amount of ammo purchased, I'd say it's just Pork economics.

Much of our military and DHS spending is just corporate welfare for the killing machine

The real reason the GOP doesn't want to cut military spending, or perhaps they even want to raise it... Throwing money at the Military industrial complex

Peace

Karl
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Aug 17, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
Have you guys seen this Bill HR 645??



SEC. 2. ESTABLISHMENT OF NATIONAL EMERGENCY CENTERS.

(a) In General- In accordance with the requirements of this Act, the Secretary of Homeland Security shall establish not fewer than 6 national emergency centers on military installations.

(b) Purpose of National Emergency Centers- The purpose of a national emergency center shall be to use existing infrastructure--

(1) to provide temporary housing, medical, and humanitarian assistance to individuals and families dislocated due to an emergency or major disaster;

(2) to provide centralized locations for the purposes of training and ensuring the coordination of Federal, State, and local first responders;

(3) to provide centralized locations to improve the coordination of preparedness, response, and recovery efforts of government, private, and not-for-profit entities and faith-based organizations; and

(4) to meet other appropriate needs, as determined by the Secretary of Homeland Security

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/111/hr645/text

Crazy. Watch your back guys. We seem to do pretty much everything you do down there so.... won't be long.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Sep 5, 2012 - 11:48am PT
Watch out bunker boys. The SS is after you.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/04/us/social-security-bullets/index.html?hpt=hp_c2
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Sep 5, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
If I fly to the US, or within the US, I always have SSSS stamped on my airplane ticket, which means you get pulled out of line, to get a special search and interrogation. I think I'm branded this way and will have to put up with it for the rest of my life. I have no criminal record and am licensed to practice law in two U.S. states (requires background check). The thing is, no one will ever tell you why you're on the list.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 5, 2012 - 12:41pm PT
And for those who decry the Dems, and say that Obama makes no difference.......

you might consider that the judge Katherine Forrest, was appointed to the bench by Obama. If you think that she would have been appointed by a Repub, you are smoking your coffee beans.
tarek

climber
berkeley
Sep 5, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
http://www.esquire.com/features/obama-lethal-presidency-0812

Anyone who reads this and wipes it off, is simply a partisan hack.
Just one of Obama's gifts to our next President.

Here's the teaser from a lighter bit, equally insightful, posted on their website from Sept. Harper's:

Compromising positions
By Thomas Frank

Let us review. Barack Obama, who was lifted to the presidency four years ago on a great wave of progressive fantasy, likes to say that the national budget is like a family budget: that when times are tough, government has to tighten its belt. This is a Republican simile of very long standing, and the president is a Democrat. He is in fact the leader of the party that is supposed to believe in deficit spending during hard times. Yet Obama has enthusiastically adopted the belt-tightening trope, and all the terrible ideas that go with it.

Another thing the president likes to say—or liked to say, back in the days when his administration was new and “hope” hadn’t started to stink yet—was that “we should be looking forward and not backwards.” More recently, he has argued that we should not “relitigate the past.” What Obama has meant is that he and his colleagues won’t look too closely into the Bush Administration’s torture policies or the causes of the financial disaster of 2008. No, they will focus on “getting things right in the future.” It’s a kind of intellectual amnesty program that has absolved in one fell swoop the nation’s failed political leadership and pundit corps.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Sep 5, 2012 - 11:57pm PT



Doesn't anyone else here find it a bit strange that in a matter of just a few days after 9-11, there was a massive bill presented to Congress, THAT NONE OF THEM EVEN READ, and passed almost unanimously as the PATRIOT ACT?

I for one, smelled a rat. Anyone protesting it's passage was shouted down and called a lunatic, or worse, A CONSPIRACY THEORIST!

The bill was over 5,000 pages of measures that allowed the Gubermint to spy on, x-ray, strip search (or at least pat down invasively), and regulate our activities at an unprecedented level. None of our elected officials managed to wade through it before it was placed before a vote.

B.O.'s former chief of staff at the White House, Rahm Emmanual said it clearly, in the open: "Never let a good crisis go to waste
."

I love how this just gets glossed over. How did they write a 5000 page document and have it printed in two days? 1000 monkeys get 5 pages each??
It reeks of being pre-planned.



TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 5, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
I love how this just gets glossed over. How did they write a 5000 page document and have it printed in two days? 1000 monkeys get 5 pages each??
It reeks of being pre-planned.

Same applies to Obamacare.

They both have to go!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 6, 2012 - 12:03am PT
Hey, I know Thomas Frank, a fellow writer.
MisterE

Social climber
Sep 6, 2012 - 12:11am PT
Domestic violence is bad anyway you look at it, Mmmkay?

Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Sep 6, 2012 - 01:10am PT
Are you guys comfortable that the President is killing his own citizens without due process????
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Sep 6, 2012 - 01:24am PT
DUE PROCESS AND TARGETED KILLING OF TERRORISTS

Richard Murphy & Afsheen John Radsan*

ABSTRACT

“Targeted killing” is extra-judicial, premeditated killing by a state of a specifically identified person not in its custody. States have used this tool, secretly or not, throughout history. In recent years, targeted killing has generated new controversy as two states in particular—Israel and the United States—have struggled against opponents embedded in civilian populations. As a matter of express policy, Israel engages in targeted killing of persons it deems members of terrorist organizations involved in attacks on Israel. The United States, less expressly, has adopted a similar policy against al Qaeda—particularly in the border areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan, where the CIA has used unmanned Predator drones to fire Hellfire missiles to kill al Qaeda leaders and affiliates. This campaign of Predator strikes has continued into the Obama Administration.
This Article explores the implications for targeted killing of the due process model that the Supreme Court has developed in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld and Boumediene v. Bush for detention of enemy combatants. Contrary to a charge leveled by Justice Thomas in his Hamdi dissent, this model does not break down in the extreme context of targeted killing. Instead, it suggests useful means to control this practice and heighten accountability. Our primary conclusion is that under Boumediene, the executive has a due process obligation to develop fair, rational procedures for its use of targeted killing no matter whom it might be targeting anywhere in the world. To implement this duty, the executive should, following the lead of the Supreme Court of Israel (among others), require an independent, intra-executive investigation of any targeted killing by the CIA. These investigations should be as public as is reasonably consistent with national security. Even in a war on terror, due process demands at least this level of accountability for the power to kill suspected terrorists.

http://repository.law.ttu.edu/bitstream/handle/10601/1325/Due%20Process%20and%20Targeted%20Killing%2031CardozoLR405.pdf?sequence=1
WBraun

climber
Sep 6, 2012 - 01:28am PT
Confessions of a Former CIA Asset Susan Lindauer

You should read this, pretty interesting .... came out about 2 1/2 weeks ago.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/08/30/911-confessions-of-a-former-cia-asset/

I submit this sworn affidavit as evidence of criminal actions by President George Bush, Vice President Richard Cheney, Attorney General John Ashcroft, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales; Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and National Security Adviser, Condoleeza Rice.

Susan Lindauer
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 6, 2012 - 08:38am PT
The Patriot Act was written before 911 and the Bush Admin also started wiretapping before 911, they didn't tell us why until after 911, and it was to stop terrorist attacks.

so craig--are you still a lihop? or have you given up your agnostic ways and begun to see the hand of god in it all? after all, both jesus and george w. bush said, "if you are not with me, you are against me."

werner, stay away from that garbage. if you're not careful you'll end up at a chemtrail conference.
GregD

Trad climber
Pollock Pines, California
Sep 6, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
I believe the framework to the patriot act was written by Biden post OK City bombing in 93. When the post 9/11 patriot act was released Biden proudly declared himself the father of it. But that's all BS.

The real travesty is lyin' Ryan taking an hour off his marathon time.

Vote appropriately my friends. Or not.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 6, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
Same applies to Obamacare.





mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Sep 6, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
How do you know a politician is lying? His lips are moving --I dont know who said that but it seems to me that we need to address this problem.

If you lie to "We the People" it should be TREASON with no free pass.

Unfortunately our elected officials are rarely questioned, and even less frequently do they face consequences for crimes against thier constituents.

I am an AMERICAN not a repuglicon or democrat but it is easy to see which party supports the majority of american's best interest (Democratic Party) and which supports the 1% (repuglicon party). I just wish the majority of americans voted for thier interest instead of being conned by the repuglicons.

Where is Romney's Tax Returns??? How many lies can Paul "lyin" Ryan tell in one day (can he break the record)?
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Sep 6, 2012 - 07:24pm PT
They are both lies. They are there to distract you from the more important things. This thread isn't about rep vs dem. Its about the criminalization of dissent, of which both parties are culpable.

Open your eyes before they blow them wide open.

Everyone should be entitled to speak their opinion without fear of reprisal. Freedom of speech is one of the cornerstones of your constitution, but if you practice it these days you could end up in jail under the patriot act or worse on the drone kill list!

Make no mistake. Its not about red vs blue. Its about them vs you!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 6, 2012 - 08:27pm PT
If I fly to the US, or within the US, I always have SSSS stamped on my airplane ticket, which means you get pulled out of line, to get a special search and interrogation. I think I'm branded this way and will have to put up with it for the rest of my life. I have no criminal record and am licensed to practice law in two U.S. states (requires background check). The thing is, no one will ever tell you why you're on the list.

Dude, they know you post on SuperTopo!!!
cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Sep 7, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
CUSACK: But yet the speech that Eric Holder gave was greeted generally, by those others than civil libertarians and a few people on the left with some intellectual honesty, with polite applause and a stunning silence and then more cocktail parties and state dinners and dignitaries, back the Republican Hypocrisy Hour on the evening feed — and he basically gave a speech saying that the executive can assassinate US citizens.

TURLEY: That was the truly other-worldly moment of the speech. He went to, Northwestern Law School (my alma mater), and stood there and articulated the most authoritarian policy that a government can have: the right to unilaterally kill its citizens without any court order or review. The response from the audience was applause. Citizens applauding an Attorney General who just described how the President was claiming the right to kill any of them on his sole inherent authority.

CUSACK: Does that order have to come directly from Obama, or can his underlings carry that out on his behalf as part of a generalized understanding? Or does he have to personally say, "You can get that guy and that guy?"

TURLEY: Well, he has delegated the authority to the so-called death panel, which is, of course, hilarious, since the Republicans keep talking about a nonexistent death panel in national healthcare. We actually do have a death panel, and it's killing people who are healthy.

http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/11264-john-cusack-and-jonathan-turley-on-obamas-constitution
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 8, 2012 - 12:54am PT

USA has privatized prisons with Prison Industries Inc now being one of the largest in the country. Decreasing the Prison Population would be bad for business. Some of our worst laws are promoted by the prison industry.

What part of this prison corporation of America don't you understand?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Prison_Industries

Federal Prison Industries, also known as UNICOR and FPI, is a wholly owned United States government corporation created in 1934 that uses penal labour from the Federal Bureau of Prisons to produce goods and services. FPI is restricted to selling its products and services to Federal government agencies and has no access to the commercial market.[1]

Purpose

Federal Prison Industries and UNICOR does not compel inmates to participate in a vocation; the decision to participate in the program is strictly voluntary.[citation needed] While in the program, inmates are given vocational training. By equipping inmates with a strong skill set in a vocation, UNICOR reduces recidivism and gives former inmates the means to support themselves in post-institutional life.[5]
Activities

UNICOR is economically self-sustaining and receives no government funding.[6][citation needed] In fiscal year 1996, UNICOR had net sales of $459 million.[7] In fiscal year 2008, UNICOR employed 21,836 inmates: 17% of eligible inmates held in federal prisons. The company generated US$854.3 million in sales. Of these revenues, 80% went toward the purchase of raw material and equipment; 16% went to staff salaries; 4% went to inmate salaries.[6]

UNICOR has 109 factories in federal prisons, producing about 175 different types of products and services, including clothing and textiles, electronics, fleet management and vehicular components, industrial products, office furniture, recycling activities; and services including data entry and encoding.

Under US laws and regulations, federal agencies, with the exception of the Department of Defense, are required to purchase products (but not services) offered by UNICOR, unless authorized by UNICOR to solicit bids from the private sector. This "mandatory source clause" has drawn controversy over the years, with allegations that UNICOR is unfairly competing with private businesses.[6] From 2002 to 2004, Congress and the Bush Administration made several efforts to mitigate this competitive advantage held by UNICOR over the private sector. In 2003, UNICOR's board of directors eliminated the mandatory source clause for federal purchases under US$2,500, and mandated itself to approve waivers in all cases where the private sector provides a lower cost.[6]

Critics say Federal Prison Industries pays substandard wages, and that inmates work subject to conditions and salary the company itself decides.[8] Under current law, all physically able inmates who are not a security risk or have a health exception are required to work, either for UNICOR or at some other prison job.[6][9] Inmates earn from US$0.23 per hour up to a maximum of US$1.15 per hour, and all inmates with court-ordered financial obligations must use at least 50% of this UNICOR income to satisfy those debts.[6]

One report [10] detailed a FPI operation at a California prison in which inmates de-manufactured computer cathode-type monitors. Industry standard practice for this mandates a mechanical crushing machine to minimize danger from flying glass, with an isolated air system to avoid releasing lead, barium, phosphor compounds to the workplace atmosphere. At the FPI facility prisoners smashed the CRTs with hammers. The report noted, "Smashing CRTs with hammers is not a common practice in the private sector, nor could it ever be considered a 'best practice.'"
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2012 - 12:51am PT


Warren Buffett, in a recent interview with CNBC, offers one of the best quotes about the debt ceiling:

"I could end the deficit in 5 minutes," he told CNBC. "You just
pass a law that says that anytime there is a deficit of more
than 3% of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible
for re-election.

The 26th amendment (granting the right to vote for 18 year-olds)
took only 3 months & 8 days to be ratified! Why? Simple!
The people demanded it. That was in 1971 - before computers, e-mail,
cell phones, etc.

Of the 27 amendments to the Constitution, seven (7) took one (1) year
or less to become the law of the land - all because of public pressure.

Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to
a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask
each of those to do likewise.

In three days, most people in The United States of America will
have the message. This is one idea that really should be passed
around.

Congressional Reform Act of 2012

1. No Tenure / No Pension.

A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no
pay when they're out of office.

2. Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social
Security.

All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the
Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into
the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the
American people. It may not be used for any other purpose.

3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all
Americans do.

4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.
Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.

5. Congress loses their current health care system and
participates in the same health care system as the American people.

6.. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the
American people.

7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void
effective 12/1/12. The American people did not make this
contract with Congressmen/women.


Congress made all these contracts for themselves. Serving in
Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers
envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their
term(s), then go home and back to work.

If each person contacts a minimum of twenty people then it will
only take three days for most people (in the U.S. ) to receive
the message. Don't you think it's time?

THIS IS HOW YOU FIX CONGRESS!

If you agree, pass it on. If not, delete.
You are one of my 20+ - Please keep it going, and thanks
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Sep 12, 2012 - 12:58am PT
Good stuff Tom but I wish it was that easy.
there is more, but this should do...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/28thamendment.asp

http://www.factcheck.org/hot-topics/

cheers
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 12, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
And the good guys win one today...

Judge Forrest Issues Permanent Injunction Against Detention Law

The Court is mindful of the extraordinary importance of the Government’s efforts to safeguard the country from terrorism. In light of the high stakes of those efforts as well as the executive branch’s expertise, courts undoubtedly owe the political branches a great deal of deference in the area of national security. See Holder v. Humanitarian Law Project, 130 S. Ct. 2705, 2711 (2010). Moreover, these same considerations counsel particular attention to the Court’s obligation to avoid unnecessary constitutional questions in this context. Cf. Ashwander v. Tenn. Valley Auth., 297 U.S. 288, 347 (1936) (Brandeis, J., concurring) (“The Court will not pass upon a constitutional question although properly presented by the record, if there is also present some other ground upon which the case may be disposed of.”). Nevertheless, the Constitution places affirmative limits on the power of the Executive to act, and these limits apply in times of peace as well as times of war. See, e.g., Ex parte Milligan, 72 U.S. (4 Wall.) 2, 125-26 (1866). Heedlessly to refuse to hear constitutional challenges to the Executive’s conduct in the name of deference would be to abdicate this Court’s responsibility to safeguard the rights it has sworn to uphold.

And this Court gives appropriate and due deference to the executive and legislative branches–and understands the limits of its own (and their) role(s). But due deference does not eliminate the judicial obligation to rule on properly presented constitutional questions. Courts must safeguard core constitutional rights. A long line of Supreme Court precedent adheres to that fundamental principle in unequivocal language. Although it is true that there are scattered cases–primarily decided during World War II–in which the Supreme Court sanctioned undue deference to the executive and legislative branches on constitutional questions, those cases are generally now considered an embarrassment (e.g., Korematsu v. United States, 323 U.S. 214 (1944) (upholding the internment of Japanese Americans based on wartime security concerns)), or referred to by current members of the Supreme Court (for instance, Justice Scalia) as “wrong” (e.g., Ex parte Quirin, 317 U.S. 1 (1942) (allowing for the military detention and execution of an American citizen detained on U.S. soil)). Presented, as this Court is, with unavoidable constitutional questions, it declines to step aside.

http://sdnyblog.com/judge-forrest-issues-permanent-injunction-against-detention-law/

Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Sep 18, 2012 - 03:14am PT
Ron Paul has this to say on the subject
[Click to View YouTube Video]
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Sep 18, 2012 - 03:28am PT
Paul is solid when it comes to abuses of power by government. Unfortunately he is quite blind to abuses of power elsewhere. He is particularly blind to the fact that many corporations wield more power than many nations.

A rational mind is wary of all powerful entities and looks to protect the citizenry from the results of this proverb.

Power corrupts.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2012 - 11:49pm PT
Julian Assange addresses UN (Full Version with Q&A)

***

Updated

http://wikileaks.org

Transcript of Julian Assange’s Address to the UN on Human Rights – given on Wednesday 26th September – Proofed from live speech

Foreign Minister Patino, fellow delegates, ladies and gentlemen.

I speak to you today as a free man, because despite having been detained for 659 days without charge, I am free in the most basic and important sense. I am free to speak my mind.

This freedom exists because the nation of Ecuador has granted me political asylum and other nations have rallied to support its decision.

And it is because of Article 19 of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights that WikiLeaks is able to “receive and impart information… through any media, and any medium and regardless of frontiers”. And it is because of Article 14.1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which enshrines the right to seek asylum from persecution, and the 1951 Refugee Convention and other conventions produced by the United Nations that I am able to be protected along with others from political persecution.

It is thanks to the United Nations that I am able to exercise my inalienable right to seek protection from the arbitrary and excessive actions taken by governments against me and the staff and supporters of my organisation. It is because of the absolute prohibition on torture enshrined in customary international law and the UN Convention Against Torture that we stand firmly to denounce torture and war crimes, as an organisation, regardless of who the perpetrators are.

I would like to thank the courtesy afforded to me by the Government of Ecuador in providing me with the space here today speak once again at the UN, in circumstances very different to my intervention in the Universal Periodic Review in Geneva.

Almost two years ago today, I spoke there about our work uncovering the torture and killing of over 100,000 Iraqi citizens.

But today I want to tell you an American story.

I want to tell you the story of a young American soldier in Iraq.

The soldier was born in Cresent Oaklahoma to a Welsh mother and US Navy father. His parents fell in love. His father was stationed at a US military base in Wales.

The soldier showed early promise as a boy, winning top prize at science fairs 3 years in a row.

He believed in the truth, and like all of us, hated hypocrisy.

He believed in liberty and the right for all of us to pursue happiness. He believed in the values that founded an independent United States. He believed in Madison, he believed in Jefferson and he believed in Paine. Like many teenagers, he was unsure what to do with his life, but he knew he wanted to defend his country and he knew he wanted to learn about the world. He entered the US military and, like his father, trained as an intelligence analyst.

In late 2009, aged 21, he was deployed to Iraq.

There, it is alleged, he saw a US military that often did not follow the rule of law, and in fact, engaged in murder and supported political corruption.

It is alleged, it was there, in Baghdad, in 2010 that he gave to WikiLeaks, and to the world, details that exposed the torture of Iraqis, the murder of journalists and the detailed records of over 120,000 civilian killings in Iraq and in Afghanistan. He is also alleged to have given WikiLeaks 251,000 US diplomatic cables, which then went on to help trigger the Arab Spring. This young soldier’s name is Bradley Manning.

Allegedly betrayed by an informer, he was then imprisoned in Baghdad, imprisoned in Kuwait, and imprisoned in Virginia, where he was kept for 9 months in isolation and subject to severe abuse. The UN Special Rapporteur for Torture, Juan Mendez, investigated and formally found against the United States.

Hillary Clinton’s spokesman resigned. Bradley Manning, science fair all-star, soldier and patriot was degraded, abused and psychologically tortured by his own government. He was charged with a death penalty offence. These things happened to him, as the US government tried to break him, to force him to testify against WikiLeaks and me.

As of today Bradley Manning has been detained without trial for 856 days.

The legal maximum in the US military is 120 days.

The US administration is trying to erect a national regime of secrecy. A national regime of obfuscation.

A regime where any government employee revealing sensitive information to a media organization can be sentenced to death, life imprisonment or for espionage and journalists from a media organization with them.

We should not underestimate the scale of the investigation which has happened into WikiLeaks. I only wish I could say that Bradley Manning was the only victim of the situation. But the assault on WikiLeaks in relation to that matter and others has produced an investigation that Australian diplomats say is without precedent in its scale and nature. That the US government called a “whole of government investigation.” Those government agencies identified so far as a matter of public record having been involved in this investigation include: the Department of Defense, Centcom, the Defence Intelligence Agency, the US Army Criminal Investigation Division, the United States Forces in Iraq, the First Army Division, The US Army Computer Crimes Investigative Unit, the CCIU, the Second Army Cyber-Command. And within those three separate intelligence investigations, the Department of Justice, most significantly, and its US Grand Jury in Alexandria Virginia, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, which now has, according to court testimony early this year produced a file of 42,135 pages into WikiLeaks, of which less than 8000 concern Bradley Manning. The Department of State, the Department of State’s Diplomatic Security Services. In addition we have been investigated by the Office of the Director General of National Intelligence, the ODNI, the Director of National Counterintelligence Executive, the Central Intelligence Agency, the House Oversight Committee, the National Security Staff Interagency Committee, and the PIAB – the President’s Intelligence Advisory Board.

The Department of Justice spokesperson Dean Boyd confirmed in July 2012 that the Department of Justice investigation into WikiLeaks is ongoing.

For all Barack Obama’s fine words yesterday, and there were many of them, fine words, it is his administration that boasts on his campaign website of criminalizing more speech that all previous US presidents combined.

I am reminded of the phrase: “the audacity of hope.”

Who can say that the President of the United States is not audacious?

Was it not audacity for the United States government to take credit for the last two years’ avalanche of progress?

Was it not audacious to say, on Tuesday, that the “United States supported the forces of change” in the Arab Spring?

Tunisian history did not begin in December 2010.

And Mohammed Bouazizi did not set himself on fire so that Barack Obama could be reelected.

His death was an emblem of the despair he had to endure under the Ben Ali regime.

The world knew, after reading WikiLeaks publications, that the Ben Ali regime and its government had for long years enjoyed the indifference, if not the support, of the United States – in full knowledge of its excesses and its crimes.

So it must come as a surprise to Tunisians that the United States supported the forces of change in their country.

It must come as a surprise to the Egyptian teenagers who washed American teargas out of their eyes that the US administration supported change in Egypt.

It must come as a surprise to those who heard Hillary Clinton insist that Mubarak’s regime was “stable,” and when it was clear to everyone that it was not, that its hated intelligence chief, Sueilman, who we proved the US knew was a torturer, should take the realm.

It must come as a surprise to all those Egyptians who heard Vice President Joseph Biden declare that Hosni Mubarak was a democrat and that Julian Assange was a high tech terrorist.

It is disrespectful to the dead and incarcerated of the Bahrain uprising to claim that the United States “supported the forces of change.”

This is indeed audacity.

Who can say that it is not audacious that the President – concerned to appear leaderly – looks back on this sea change – the people’s change – and calls it his own?

But we can take heart here too, because it means that the White House has seen that this progress is inevitable.

In this “season of progress” the president has seen which way the wind is blowing.

And he must now pretend that it is his adminstration that made it blow.

Very well. This is better than the alternative – to drift into irrelevance as the world moves on.

We must be clear here.

The United States is not the enemy.

Its government is not uniform. In some cases good people in the United States supported the forces of change. And perhaps Barack Obama personally was one of them.

But in others, and en masse, early on, it actively opposed them.

This is a matter of historical record.

And it is not fair and it is not appropriate for the President to distort that record for political gain, or for the sake of uttering fine words.

Credit should be given where it is due, but it should be withheld where it is not.

And as for the fine words.

They are fine words.

And we commend and agree with these fine words.

We agree when President Obama said yesterday that people can resolve their differences peacefully.

We agree that diplomacy can take the place of war.

And we agree that this is an interdependent world, that all of us have a stake in.

We agree that freedom and self-determination are not merely American or Western values, but universal values.

And we agree with the President when he says that we must speak honestly if we are serious about these ideals.

But fine words languish without commensurate actions.

President Obama spoke out strongly in favour of the freedom of expression.

“Those in power,” he said, “have to resist the temptation to crack down on dissent.”

There are times for words and there are times for action. The time for words has run out.

It is time for the US to cease its persecution of WikiLeaks, to cease its persecution of our people, and to cease its persecution of our alleged sources.

It is time for President Obama do the right thing, and join the forces of change, not in fine words but in fine deeds.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Oct 4, 2012 - 02:13am PT
Former Us Attourney Ramsey Clark
[Click to View YouTube Video]
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2012 - 03:09am PT
http://news.yahoo.com/secret-cold-war-tests-st-louis-raise-concerns-214608828.html


Secret Cold War tests in St. Louis raise concerns
By JIM SALTER | Associated Press – 8 hrs ago

ST. LOUIS (AP) — Doris Spates was a baby when her father died inexplicably in 1955. She has watched four siblings die of cancer, and she survived cervical cancer.

After learning that the Army conducted secret chemical testing in her impoverished St. Louis neighborhood at the height of the Cold War, she wonders if her own government is to blame.

In the mid-1950s, and again a decade later, the Army used motorized blowers atop a low-income housing high-rise, at schools and from the backs of station wagons to send a potentially dangerous compound into the already-hazy air in predominantly black areas of St. Louis.

Local officials were told at the time that the government was testing a smoke screen that could shield St. Louis from aerial observation in case the Russians attacked.

But in 1994, the government said the tests were part of a biological weapons program and St. Louis was chosen because it bore some resemblance to Russian cities that the U.S. might attack. The material being sprayed was zinc cadmium sulfide, a fine fluorescent powder.

Now, new research is raising greater concern about the implications of those tests. St. Louis Community College-Meramec sociology professor Lisa Martino-Taylor's research has raised the possibility that the Army performed radiation testing by mixing radioactive particles with the zinc cadmium sulfide, though she concedes there is no direct proof.

But her report, released late last month, was troubling enough that both U.S. senators from Missouri wrote to Army Secretary John McHugh demanding answers.

Aides to Sens. Claire McCaskill and Roy Blunt said they have received no response. Army spokesman Dave Foster declined an interview request from The Associated Press, saying the Army would first respond to the senators.

The area of the secret testing is described by the Army in documents obtained by Martino-Taylor through a Freedom of Information Act request as "a densely populated slum district." About three-quarters of the residents were black.

Spates, now 57 and retired, was born in 1955, delivered inside her family's apartment on the top floor of the since-demolished Pruitt-Igoe housing development in north St. Louis. Her family didn't know that on the roof, the Army was intentionally spewing hundreds of pounds of zinc cadmium sulfide into the air.

Three months after her birth, her father died. Four of her 11 siblings succumbed to cancer at relatively young ages.

"I'm wondering if it got into our system," Spates said. "When I heard about the testing, I thought, 'Oh my God. If they did that, there's no telling what else they're hiding.'"

Mary Helen Brindell wonders, too. Now 68, her family lived in a working-class mixed-race neighborhood where spraying occurred.

The Army has admitted only to using blowers to spread the chemical, but Brindell recalled a summer day playing baseball with other kids in the street when a squadron of green Army planes flew close to the ground and dropped a powdery substance. She went inside, washed it off her face and arms, then went back out to play.

Over the years, Brindell has battled four types of cancer — breast, thyroid, skin and uterine.

"I feel betrayed," said Brindell, who is white. "How could they do this? We pointed our fingers during the Holocaust, and we do something like this?"

Martino-Taylor said she wasn't aware of any lawsuits filed by anyone affected by the military tests. She also said there have been no payouts "or even an apology" from the government to those affected.

The secret testing in St. Louis was exposed to Congress in 1994, prompting a demand for a health study. A committee of the National Research Council determined in 1997 that the testing did not expose residents to harmful levels of the chemical. But the committee said research was sparse and the finding relied on limited data from animal testing.

It also noted that high doses of cadmium over long periods of exposure could cause bone and kidney problems and lung cancer. The committee recommended that the Army conduct follow-up studies "to determine whether inhaled zinc cadmium sulfide breaks down into toxic cadmium compounds, which can be absorbed into the blood to produce toxicity in the lungs and other organs."

But it isn't clear if follow-up studies were ever performed. Martino-Taylor said she has gotten no answer from the Army and her research has turned up no additional studies. Foster, the Army spokesman, declined comment.

Martino-Taylor became involved years ago when a colleague who grew up in the targeted area wondered if the testing was the cause of her cancer. That same day, a second colleague confided to Martino-Taylor that she, too, lived in the test area and had cancer.

Martino-Taylor decided to research the testing for her doctoral thesis at the University of Missouri. She believes the St. Louis study was linked to the Manhattan Atomic Bomb Project and a small group of scientists from that project who were developing radiological weapons. A congressional study in 1993 confirmed radiological testing in Tennessee and parts of the West during the Cold War.

"There are strong lines of evidence that there was a radiological component to the St. Louis study," Martino-Taylor said.

Blunt, in his letter to the Army secretary, questioned whether radioactive testing was performed.

"The idea that thousands of Missourians were unwillingly exposed to harmful materials in order to determine their health effects is absolutely shocking," the senator wrote.

McCaskill agreed. "Given the nature of these experiments, it's not surprising that Missouri citizens still have questions and concerns about what exactly occurred and if there may have been any negative health effects," she said in a statement.

Martino-Taylor said a follow-up health study should be performed in St. Louis, but it must involve direct input from people who lived in the targeted areas.

"Their voices have not been heard," Martino-Taylor said.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 4, 2012 - 03:26am PT
Spates, now 57 and retired, was born in 1955, delivered inside her family's apartment on the top floor of the since-demolished Pruitt-Igoe housing development in north St. Louis. Her family didn't know that on the roof, the Army was intentionally spewing hundreds of pounds of zinc cadmium sulfide into the air.

Wow, Pruitt-Igoe. A sad footnote to one of the greatest failures in architecture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruitt–Igoe
Sparky

Trad climber
vagabond movin on
Jan 31, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
http://mccaskill.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=1724

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/82999325/?autoplay=true

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/83002618/

Aides to Sens. Claire McCaskill and Roy Blunt said they have received no response. Army spokesman Dave Foster declined an interview request from The Associated Press, saying the Army would first respond to the senators.
http://truth-media.info/secret-cold-war-tests-in-st-louis-raise-concerns/
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