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clustiere
Trad climber
berkeley ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 11, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
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Someone bolted farewell to arms, it looks to have been recently equipped with (4) titanium bolts with RE-500 resin. I wasn't really sure how mindful the placements were as it looked like a dangerous fall could be made between the third and fourth both. My guess is that it was placed there due to rock quality. A further interesting part of using these kind of bolts is that it requires making an additional slot adding to rock damage. Do people plan to bolt the rest of the climbs making it a sport climbing area, or was that just for the interest of one person? Honestly if the other routes were bolted it would make for an interesting little sport crag, but who's making these decisions? I also noticed a bolt placed at the top of the lower Remillard rock up the street. Things are changing in the Berkeley Hills. More than anything I'm curious how these decisions are being made?
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clustiere
Trad climber
berkeley ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 11, 2012 - 03:20pm PT
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I do hope nobody goes out to damage the bolts, at this point it would damage the rock as well. The best you could do given the glue in and surrounding chiseling is to bend the bolts over and that is always a sad shame. It's be nice to have a discussion rather than one group busting the rock for this reason and another busting it for that.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Aug 11, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
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I'd also like to know who is doing the bolting, which I regard as undesirable. Just toprope those short faces.
Was sorely tempted to chop the bolts at the top of the 5.9 face 15-18 years ago, as topropes around there were all being set up using long slings back from the cliff edge. Trees were also used, The slings may have contributed to the trees' demise, but I don't think so. I've seen similar age bays dying in other Berkeley parks.
Anyhow, I didn't do anything with those bolts years ago (extra large metolius hangers and all) because I figured they were used to teach classes and it just seemed like too much of an ego move to chop.
But I wish people would consult with a few others who've been around before drilling on main faces.
As for Remillard, there have been 2 sets of bolts there for many years, they are for topropes and seem fine. If someone places bolts at the top of the main face for convenience--instead of using the pole further back--I'd be in favor of removing those.
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crasic
climber
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Aug 11, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
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Cragmont and Remillard is used extensively by local groups and camps to teach rock climbing.
I wouldn't be surprised if one of them put up the bolts to facilitate their business by teaching sport climbing or what have you.
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Aug 11, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
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There is absolutely no reason for those faces to be bolted.
My two cents.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 11, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
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That's a bummer.
I wonder what possesses someone to bolt something like that? Is it cluelessness or just plain disregard?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Aug 11, 2012 - 07:23pm PT
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What is shocking to me is that anyone would go to cragmont more than once.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 11, 2012 - 07:32pm PT
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I went twice.
Okay, three times.
Remillard twice.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Aug 11, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
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I think many will agree that bolting short TRs is lame.
BITD we would Tr such problems with a careful belayer laying out 3 ft of slack keeping the low end of the loop just above the climbers ankles if you want to do a spicy ascent.
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crasic
climber
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Aug 12, 2012 - 02:42am PT
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I do dislike bolting w/o regard to the FA or local community...
The reality is that this is an old rock park in the middle of a built up suburban neighborhood. It is and always has been a practice crag, I have record books from UCHC (UC Hiking Club) going back to the 50's that show it was regularly used to practice everything from hammering in pitons and placing bolts to leading and rope technique, these same people went on to put up classic FA's all over California. However, this makes the place rather historic, since many early west coast climbers (going back to the beginning of the century) cut their teeth and learned rope techniques at these oversized boulders.
IMO, Bolting this short TR to set up a sport/lead practice area is well within the spirit and history of the rock park. Of course, this should be done reasonably and in moderation.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
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Aug 12, 2012 - 03:01am PT
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Seriously?
Damn.
Those bolts will be chopped, justifiably, and hopefully super duper clean. That's just lame.
Curious as to the condition of the anchor bolts on TOP of Cragmont... I replaced several of these a few years ago. Same holes as the bolts previously placed, if anyone's asking, as I would too.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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Aug 12, 2012 - 03:05am PT
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IMO, Bolting this short TR to set up a sport/lead practice area is well within the spirit and history of the rock park. I disagree with you. It's more like applying the modern f'ed up conglomerate of sport and gym etc to initiate the 'gen-next' noob, and lighten his wallet a little in the process.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 12, 2012 - 11:56am PT
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crasic is correct about cragmont's history.
cragmont is one of the places that american "dirty" climbing began.
pitons were rare in north america until the rock climbing section and the cragmont climbing club began importing and using them. that chosspile was one of the places suburban, white-collar kids learned to whale on metal.
indian rock is an easier place to find the old practice bolt holes. i've always wondered if at least one or two of those relics weren't drilled by salathe, back when expansion bolts were mostly unknown in climbing.
later, in the seventies, after the clean climbing deal took off in california (sort of), folks quit the metal work on berkeley practice crags. so it's probably been a good forty or fifty years since locals were heading off to cragmont to try out new pins. i dont know when folks bolted that other choss pile left of farewll. seventies? so traditionally speaking, cragmont was a whale on metal chosspile. then it was a clean climbing chosspile. now, at least part of it is a sport chosspile.
so far as the new bolts go, i guess i can't work up strong feelings one way or the other. i'd probably be pretty unhappy if someone did it at i-rock. if the bolts are spaced in ways that make deckers likely, then we're more likely to see unhappy events down the road, if the bfd has to respond to climber accidents.
although the last time i was at cragmont, several years ago, one of the local fire station contingents had set up a rappel off the top-- off the trees. and the team leader was coaching folks into rapping in big jumps. i had only been there maybe ninety seconds when i got to see the first sprained ankle.
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crasic
climber
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Aug 12, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
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It's more like applying the modern f'ed up conglomerate of sport and gym etc to initiate the 'gen-next' noob, and lighten his wallet a little in the process.
Which is exactly what this tired old rock has been used for since the beginning of the last century, except the "next-gen noob" in the 50's that used it to nail his first piton in and drill bolt holed are considered old stonemasters today.
Basically if the bolting was competent, I don't think its a problem, if its put up in away that we get a groundfall from every "ye first sport fall" then its stupid.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Aug 12, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
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Well, if we use history as our guide here, we should put in some aid ladders and wail on some pins. Both are still used on the big stone and elsewhere all over the world and cragmont is a practice area, as stated.
The cracks at cragmont are a fine place to learn to lead. An instructor can place gear, and students can clip it as they examine how it was placed. I never had to be taught how to clip bolts once I'd clipped gear...
I'm with others here who are concerned about silly accidents this might bring from flegling leaders. It's a choss pile, really. Crumbly rock, ledges, etc. But this is a fun place to go alone for the moderates, and it's actually a major bummer to see those toprope bolts as you climb past. I'd be more in favor of putting in some permanent anchors away from the cliff edge, as is the local tradition for top rope anchors (IR, Mortar, Remillard).
But yeah, if someone thought to bolt I-12 or 13, That's when a whole bunch of people would be out for blood.
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crasic
climber
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Aug 12, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
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Well, if we use history as our guide here, we should put in some aid ladders and wail on some pins. Both are still used on the big stone and elsewhere all over the world and cragmont is a practice area, as stated.
And my point is that I wouldn't be surprised if someone does. I don't see a problem with a practice area evolving with the sport. If I wanted to learn to pound in pins on lead, I would do it at cragmont. Its history is that it its a fricking beater pile for practicing everything from pounding pins to setting up belays before you hit the big rocks.
As stated by others its a chosspile, its value is in that its a great "first outdoor climbing" area for bringing beginners and practice pile for the rest of us.
I mean, for christ's sake, there is a basketball court at the top of it.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Aug 12, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
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after the "clean revolution" I'm not sure whether it's ok to beat pins anywhere other than at a quarry for practice. You just get on a route that requires them and go.
if you did that at Cragmont, it would change the nature of routes I free climb, and that would be...well, it'd be a damn shame. Likewise, bolting any of the main faces there for leading would be unacceptable to me, but I'm just one person. Never knew any route names but I guess Farewell to Arms is down at the end/West?
Why not grid bolt the whole place? Could easily be done from stances (1) Because even choss deserves some love, (2) Enough people have fond feelings about how the rock looks that they'd be red hot pissed.
Climbing there even has a vaguely Valley-like feeling for the way the trees are and so on, not to be experienced elsewhere in Burke.
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doughnutnational
Gym climber
its nice here in the spring
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Aug 12, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
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Let em bolt that choss up, then maybe they'll less bolts to bring over here.
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crasic
climber
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Aug 12, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
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Crasic, as part of the current UC Hiking Club (now named CHAOS), I'm very curious about those record books.
After our recent shed clean out I took the legacy archive (big yellow crate) home to sort, catalogue and partially scan/photograph. I'm a current member, what do you want to know?
edit: And just to clarify, I'm not saying I'm in favor of bolting this climb or gridbolting the whole rock, I guess I was just trying to see, maybe, in what framework this might be understood if not accepted, devil's advocate if you will. If the bolter did his work in order to turn the TR route into a beginner lead, well, like I said, that is in the spirit of the place even though it may not be in very good style.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Aug 13, 2012 - 12:09am PT
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Well, I think you have it about right, Crasic. Hopefully the helpful bolter won't decide that one success should beget another. I'd favor removal of any bolts that appear on the other climbs.
btw, Gomer's Pile, the hardest of the 3 traverses in Berkeley is on Cragmont choss, has rules, "no cracks or crack-related holds" and is also a stellar problem. I hope no one decides it's "improvable" because it looks like "crap."
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