The Gun debate sandbox

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 5781 - 5800 of total 5826 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Sep 4, 2014 - 02:12pm PT
Ahh... so because "perfection" (by your narrow definition, because the 13 states emphatically WERE libertarian... so much so that it was the BASIS of the anti-federalist papers!) did not get achieved, then we should just continue to pitch off the cliff until we are in a free-fall of pure pre-crime nanny-statism?

Sorry. No. THAT I will fight!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Sep 4, 2014 - 02:36pm PT
far more people got to vote on the fourteenth amendment than ever voted for the first ten.

And that's a GOOD thing?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Sep 4, 2014 - 04:03pm PT
"No truer words have been spoken here JRig.."

"Plus 1!!!!"


Are you guys one & the same? Or just hoping that it will happen one day?
The Chief

climber
Laughing at all you angry blinded asshat Sheep
Sep 4, 2014 - 05:30pm PT
It's not a free country, never has been, and freedom doesn't mean being permitted to endanger others.

Then you best start thinking about how many other entities that need to be regulated.

ATV's, Dirt Bikes, Parasailer's, BASE and WING SUITERS', HORSEBACK RIDERS, CYCLERS, POWER BOATS....

Are you going to regulate all those entities that endanger so many tens of 1000's of people.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 5, 2014 - 08:13am PT
And that's a GOOD thing?

That's a subject for reasonable debate, but claiming that the laws of any of the 13 original United States in 1776 or 1789 weren't regularly infringing on what we would all agree now are inalienable rights, is not.

TE
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Sep 5, 2014 - 08:46am PT
infringing on what we would all agree now are inalienable rights

I'd be really curious to know what you think those are. I seriously doubt that we would "all" agree on many. In fact, one thing that has become painfully clear to me on the taco stand is that most people here don't even understand the most basic differences in rights, such as negative and positive rights.

So, long before we could talk about the 13 original states violation any of those "inalienable rights," we would have to come to a much more basic agreement, and that's one I honestly don't believe is possible here.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Sep 5, 2014 - 08:52am PT
Slavery.

Check mate.

DMT
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 9, 2014 - 08:21am PT
You are presumably a white, educated, property owning, christian male. Your demographic has lost freedoms since 1789, primarily the "freedom" to determine the course of the lives of the remaining ~80% of the population. Change any one of those adjectives and consider how much your freedom of self-determination has increased.

Slavery is only part of it. Female suffrage, universal suffrage, freedom of religion for non-monotheists, anti-discrimination laws, the right to hold public office...

Name any freedom you have lost that is greater than what they have gained?

TE
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 9, 2014 - 08:32am PT
Local news here that may have larger implications:

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Officer-Brad-Fox-Lawsuit-Filed-Against-Gun-Dealer-Straw-Purchase-Brady-Center-274332761.html

The widow of slain Plymouth Township Police Officer Brad Fox is suing the Montgomery County gun dealer who sold the gun that wound up being used to kill her husband in 2012.

This suit alleges that despite passing background checks, the straw purchase had so many "red-flags" that the dealer was negligent in completing the sale.

This murder has already significantly changed Pennsylvania law on straw purchases, which previously only carried a serious penalty after a second conviction, a technical impossibility. The first sentence under the new law was handed down last week, a woman received the mandatory minimum of five years for buying two guns for her boyfriend.

We'll see.

TE
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Sep 9, 2014 - 08:46am PT
Between last friday and monday we stopped 2 sales of guns. One for an OBVIOUS straw purchase attempt and one for a non current ID. This sort of thing goes on far more frequently than does the actual sales to a straw purchaser. The mexican gent who didnt have a valid current ID said he would return after getting one, yet he has not ( in direct violation of NV state law about changing adresses). His gun was taken from the hold office and returned to the stock.

TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 9, 2014 - 10:03am PT
Did you attempt to stall him and call the police? If yes, thanks, if not, then you are as much part of the problem as the attempted buyer.

Two attempts in one weekend in one store in one small city. Think of how many that is nationwide each week. And those are the ones you recognized. Think how many smarter crooks you didn't spot, especially some of those women buying guns you are so happy about.

TE
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Sep 9, 2014 - 10:21am PT
Calling police over a drivers license that hasnt been changed according to state law? Seriously???


If that were the case, we would be calling the police daily. And the police would soon be INGORING us. Its an administrative offense, NOT a "criminal act"... cheezuuusssssss.....
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Sep 9, 2014 - 11:18am PT
Name any freedom you have lost that is greater than what they have gained?

Your whole post from which I take this quote is confused. You use the word "freedom" as synonymous with "power," and that is not what liberty nor rights are about.

First, there is no continuum or balance of freedom as you imply. It's NOT the case that I must give up some freedom in one arena in order to get "paid back" some freedom in some other arena. I'm not forced to say: "Gee, I lost 23.7% of my voting freedom, but I gained back 34.87% of freedom to buy exactly the steak I was yearning for." (Or something like that; I honestly cannot make ANY sense of your sentence that I quoted.)

You and others like you perpetually conflate negative and positive liberties and rights, and that alone so muddies the waters that it is impossible to have a productive conversation on the subject.

Just in my lifetime, the infringement of so many negative rights has become so commonplace that people have literally, and I mean literally, lost the sense of what they once had!

I could give countless examples, but let's summarize just a few:

* The right to my own property: stolen via the social security system that I was signed up for before I ever had an adult say in the matter. I will never see (close to) as much out of that system as I have been forced to pay into it. It is government-mandated theft, plain and simple. It is the biggest Ponzi scheme in human history, and I was forced to become a part of it upon birth. Before I even had earning capacity, I was set up to have my earning capacity significantly reduced.

* The right to my own property: stolen via income taxes that have been forcibly redistributed to "needy" individuals that I would not have chosen to help, nor agreed with their "need," had I had the liberty to choose how to distribute my own property. I have NO problem with taxes being taken to sustain this nation in accordance with the actual powers granted to the federal government. But wealth redistribution really started shortly before I was born and has only accelerated during my lifetime. The constitution NEVER granted the feds the right to wealth redistribution, yet that sort of theft is literally taken for granted and even widely supported now.

On that point, there is a great quote: "Rob Peter to pay Paul, and you will always have the support of Paul."

* The right to self-defense: appropriate point in this very thread, as the feds continually take stabs at the second amendment, as though that amendment is what GIVES me the right to keep and bear arms. Government neither grants that right, nor can government take it away. The second amendment presumes that right, just as the constitution presumes the right of private property.

* The right to my own property: stolen via big-banking corruption, which is something the feds actually ARE mandated to oversee, and which the feds systematically and intentionally have not.

* The right to my own property: stolen via the corrupt monetary system overseen by "the fed." Paper "money" (unlinked from actual capital assets) was roundly condemned in Federalist 10 and others, and free-floating paper "money" has done more to transfer the assets of the average person to the ultra-wealthy than any other scheme in human history (which is precisely why it was adopted).

* The right to my own values (pursuit of happiness). I would wear a seatbelt anyway, but I am forced to. I will not wear a helmet while climbing, skateboarding, skiing, etc., although many would now think I should be forced to. As the United States has become more and more the nanny-state (we all affect each other, due to the collectivization of wealth and the corresponding reduction of individual responsibility), my most basic liberties IN MY OWN PERSON have been infringed and infringed during my lifetime. If I want to take the risk of splattering my own face against the inside of my own windshield, that is ENTIRELY my own business! Oh, no it's not... because NOW I "affect other people" with that decision. What people do not GET at this point, because we are SO far down the road, is that the very fact that my individual liberty IS infringed in this way should be indicative of how WRONG this whole collectivization approach really is. CLIMBERS especially should GET IT! We are now FAR down that path, and now nothing will stand in the way of liberty-infringing laws that are justified via the grand collectivization model.

I literally could go on and on and on.

YOU confuse negative with positive rights. YOU treat many rights as a zero-sum game, with your classic example being that you treat my voting rights as something I have "lost" or "had reduced" because other demographics have been enabled to vote. But the dilution of the POWER of my vote has literally nothing to do my 100% retention of my RIGHT to vote. Liberty and power are not at all the same thing, yet you treat them that way.

I won't even debate the above points with you (or people like you) because you are so utterly unschooled on the political-philosophy issues in play that your basic confusions make "discussion" an exercise in futility. I post this simply so as not to be entirely unresponsive to your ridiculous line of thinking, as though "there is no good response." But beyond this, I simply won't engage you, because you honestly are not at a level in which productive engagement is possible.

Tragically, we ARE so far down the road now that people like you talk in modus ponens terms when you should realize that modus tollens is the appropriate inferential form for this whole mess!
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Sep 9, 2014 - 06:59pm PT


Behold what gun worship hath wrought.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 10, 2014 - 10:56am PT
Man, that dood has issues, besides the hirsute and sartorial!
The most obvious is his finger on the trigger after likely excavating a big greasy booger.
moosedrool

climber
lost, far away from Poland
Sep 13, 2014 - 11:27am PT
Another death that could be avoided if the guns were outlawed.


Pistorius found guilty of culpable homicide

(Reuters) - Olympic and Paralympic track star Oscar Pistorius was convicted of culpable homicide on Friday, escaping the more serious charge of murder for the killing of his girlfriend, and will now battle to avoid going to prison.

The 27-year-old double amputee, who became one of the biggest names in world athletics, stood impassively in the dock, his hands folded in front of him, as Judge Thokozile Masipa delivered her verdict.

Pistorius was also convicted of firing a pistol under the table of a packed Johannesburg restaurant but cleared of two other firearms charges - illegal possession of ammunition and firing a pistol out of the sun-roof of a car.

Masipa based her decision of culpable homicide on the reasoning that Pistorius had acted negligently when he fired four shots from a 9mm pistol into a toilet door in his luxury Pretoria home, killing Steenkamp, who was behind it, almost instantly.

He said it was a tragic error, and that he had believed he was shooting at an intruder.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/13/us-safrica-pistorius-idUSKBN0H52IJ20140913

He is yet another gun nut easy to pull a trigger.

Sad really.

Andrzej
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Sep 13, 2014 - 09:33pm PT
Well, we have had a RECORD two days at the store. We had a VERY NICE sale going on several firearms, and were selling them two at a time! Set a record for the store actually. Five if us behind the gun counter and the people were two deep all the way across the counter- end to end.

Seems no one can beat a Remington R 1 1911 for 495.00, or a para 1911 for 399.00!! Or a Bushmaster AR for 600.00! Zoiks.. im flat drained. We would call in 11 folks at one time to Nics.. They were going crazy too.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Sep 13, 2014 - 09:51pm PT
I think we've set a record here too for pistol permits and new firearm owners.. The ranges are packed with new people. Haven't seen anything like this is 20+ years. More women than ever as well.

Feels kinda creepy on the other hand, almost like there's this tension in the air. Good people though and everyone seems to be taking the safety training very seriously.

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Sep 14, 2014 - 07:53am PT
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahyahahahahashashahaha!



Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!


I see see the future of the NRA right there.

DMT
moosedrool

climber
lost, far away from Poland
Sep 14, 2014 - 08:57am PT
"Elementary School Teacher Accidentally Shoots Herself On Campus"

Arming teachers is a fantastic idea! Wouldn’t all of you feel much safer knowing your child’s teacher is packing? The people of Utah sure feel safe. The state is one of a handful of states that allows educators (or any licensed gun nut) to carry their weapons on campuses. On Thursday an elementary school teacher did just that, and is now recovering from a self-inflicted gunshot wound.

The teacher at Westbrook Elementary School, in Taylorsville, Utah discharged her firearm accidentally in the faculty bathroom.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/09/12/elementary-school-teacher-accidentally-shoots-herself-on-campus/

Only in America.

Man, we are so fuked up.

Moose

Messages 5781 - 5800 of total 5826 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews