The Gun debate sandbox

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 5761 - 5780 of total 5849 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 4, 2014 - 07:49am PT
The gov't should ban all vehicles as well.

Compared to guns of any/all kind, those things kill tens times more people in this country per annum.

Next item after vehicles, cigarettes.

Next item....

If we include suicides, guns kill more people than cars each year, if we exclude suicide, which aren't my concern, cars kill less than three times as many people as guns. However, almost half of all car deaths are the driver responsible, and 94% are other persons voluntarily engaged in the same dangerous activity. If 94% of gun deaths occurred at shooting ranges, this thread wouldn't exist.

The design, sale and public use of cars are regulated far more than guns, and are not protected from product liability lawsuits.

Cigarettes, like suicide, not my concern, but second hand smoke is regulated so you can't smoke where your smoke endangers the health of others.

Junk food? Not my problem.

Pharmaceuticals? Regulated to the sky, and not protected from product liability lawsuits.

Next...

TE
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Sep 4, 2014 - 08:11am PT
The simple fact is the government is not here to help us.... once you grasp that fact it becomes a lot more clear that even more absurd legislation is not the answer to our ills...
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Sep 4, 2014 - 08:19am PT
Getting desperate are ya TE? Suicides?? Are you now blaming those on guns?

Seems that a gun is the very best option for a quick and merciful exit.

Anyhow,, while your typing your desires for gun controls here, the rest of America, to the tune of nearly 30 million new shooters in the last three years has decided otherwise. And crime incidents have gone down in general in many places in this country at the same time.

Crime has dropped off to nothing in my immediate area- including the gang that WAS attempting to label my area, as their turf. They wont even use my streets around me as a private race course for their small cars any more after i parked my rig across the road blocking them one night, and stood there with my side arm holstered, shaking my head at them.

The Chief

climber
Laughing at all you angry blinded asshat Sheep
Sep 4, 2014 - 08:28am PT
If we include suicides, guns kill more people than cars each year..

Please do post a ref to validate that claim. Be specific as to suicide by a gun.


Here is what I come up with...

In 2010 in the U.S., 19,392 people committed suicide with guns
http://www.vocativ.com/usa/guns/suicide-statistics/#!bPFn4l

2010, 32,999 were killed in auto accidents in the US
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Sep 4, 2014 - 08:46am PT
Cell phones and those addicted to them seem more dangerous to the public than any gun..Hence the rapid legislation in many many states against the use of them while driving. But as per usual, the American peeps will do what they want. And by golly they will text and drive.
The Chief

climber
Laughing at all you angry blinded asshat Sheep
Sep 4, 2014 - 08:53am PT
Can't wait to see a post on how "texting" while driving is regulated better than guns in the US.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Sep 4, 2014 - 09:14am PT
No truer words have been spoken here JRig..
The Chief

climber
Laughing at all you angry blinded asshat Sheep
Sep 4, 2014 - 09:48am PT
No truer words have been spoken here JRig..

Plus 1!!!!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 4, 2014 - 10:21am PT
A few more years of these idiot texter/drivers and you will have more than rear view cameras mandated by legislation in new cars.

It won't take much to make tamper resistant black boxes on cars, and then you will see a lot more personal responsibility come into play.

1984, but in this case I welcome it.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 4, 2014 - 10:35am PT
Having children in the car is more distracting than texting while driving. Can't wait 'til they ban that.

Best idea on this thread yet!

TE
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 4, 2014 - 10:37am PT
Better yet ban bad parenting.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 4, 2014 - 11:05am PT
Chief, take your 19,392 gun suicides, 11,078 gun murders, and 606 accidental gun deaths and you get 31,076 gun deaths in 2010. Your figure of 32,999 motor vehicle deaths is a long way from ten times higher than 31,076, which was your original claim.

Your claim and my counter-claim both said cars, not all motor vehicles so if we exclude deaths caused by motorcycles (4,502), my claim stands, and I could still remove deaths caused by heavy trucks and buses. This validates both of my claims, that guns kill more people than cars, and that even excluding suicides, cars kill less than three times as many as guns.

Feel free to pick a hole in any of that.

TE

The Chief

climber
Laughing at all you angry blinded asshat Sheep
Sep 4, 2014 - 11:26am PT
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA

Sep 4, 2014 - 11:05am PT
Chief, take your 19,392 gun suicides, 11,078 gun murders, and 606 accidental gun deaths and you get 31,076 gun deaths in 2010. Your figure of 32,999 motor vehicle deaths is a long way from ten times higher than 31,076, which was your original claim.

Your claim and my counter-claim both said cars, not all motor vehicle


Ah, NO they didn't TE:

The Chief

climber
Laughing at all you angry blinded asshat Sheep

Sep 4, 2014 - 06:25am PT
The gov't should ban all vehicles as well.

Must be that reading deficiency issue that comes with boredom.


And how many of these...

11,078 gun murders,


were from legally registered weapons as are most of the vehicles in the stat I posted.



BTW, my claim does NOT include heavy eq nor off road vehicles. Just "highway" approved vehicles.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 4, 2014 - 11:49am PT
I'll buy that, my bad, but your original claim of 10x deaths by vehicles vs. guns was way off, even if we exclude suicides, and my claim was actually slightly understated. Additionally, I have always supported much stricter DUI laws, texting/driving laws and much harder driving tests, and would refuse to vote for any politician who tried to ease current restrictions.

TE
The Chief

climber
Laughing at all you angry blinded asshat Sheep
Sep 4, 2014 - 11:59am PT
TE....


My Point, this is a Free Country. Or at least it was suppose to be not too long ago. Not one of insistent infinite rules and regulations.

In order to enforce all the rules and regs that many on this and other similar threads would want the FEDS to, we would need to hire on an additional 100-250K FED LEO's across this nation. Resulting in more LEO-CIV altercations/shootings and so on.

TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 4, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
It's not a free country, never has been, and freedom doesn't mean being permitted to endanger others. Do you believe that 33 states should allow the private sale of guns to felons as long as they are strangers to the seller?

Background checks don't require additional enforcement to be effective, and they facilitate the enforcement of existing laws. I don't want to imprison more felons and madmen after they use a gun, I want to stop more from getting guns, and stop more people from selling guns to them. That's how the most efficient laws work.

Repealing the 2005 law protecting gun makers from product liability lawsuits would also cost nothing. Every other industry has to care about the safety of their products, why not guns?

TE
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Sep 4, 2014 - 01:00pm PT
23 killed - October 16, 1991 - In Killeen, Texas, 35-year-old George Hennard crashes his pickup truck through the wall of a Lubys Cafeteria. After exiting the truck, Hennard shoots and kills 23 people.

Gun-free zone. Texas bans all open carry of handguns statewide, which is why there are now rifle-carrying protests statewide. As I argued, Hennard knew that ANYWHERE he crashed his truck would be a soft-target, gun-free killing field.

21 killed - July 18, 1984 - In San Ysidro, California, 41-year-old James Huberty, armed with a long-barreled Uzi, a pump-action shotgun and a handgun shoots and kills 21 adults and children at a local McDonalds.

Gun-free zone. As in Texas, California has long disallowed citizens being armed. In fact, California has long been one of the most difficult states in which to get a CCW permit. So, just as with Hennard, Huberty KNEW that he would face no armed resistance from INSIDE his killing field. Just as with all of the mass shootings, this nut job knew that resistance would come from OUTSIDE, and then only after significant warning (sirens, etc.).

13 killed - September 5, 1949 - In Camden, New Jersey, 28-year-old Howard Unruh, a veteran of World War II, shoots and kills 13 people as he walks down Camden's 32nd Street. His weapon of choice is a German-crafted Luger pistol.

Are you kidding, TE? Seriously... get SERIOUS!

New Jersey is (and has long been) one of the most anti-gun states in the Union! Almost nobody there is legally armed in public places! It's virtually impossible to get a CCW permit, and open carry is banned. The whole frigging STATE is a "gun-free zone." So, same points as above.

8 killed - December 5, 2007 - In Omaha, Nebraska, 19-year-old Robert Hawkins goes to an area mall and kills eight shoppers before killing himself.

Gun-free zone. Virtually all malls are explicitly gun-free zones. Remember the recent Portland, Oregon shooting in the mall? Gun-free zone.

In supposed gun-free zones, only the nut jobs have guns.

Facts - you don't get to make them up.

True... but YOU sure try anyway.

Not one of your examples even touches my argument and that of the article I cited. In short: The mass-killing fields are what they are because the nut jobs KNOW that they will face no INSIDE resistance, they know that they will have TIME to do lots and lots of killing, they know that they will face only (eventual) OUTSIDE resistance, and they know that they will get MANY minutes of warning as the spree is about to wind down.

Your examples HELPED make those points. Thank you.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Sep 4, 2014 - 01:11pm PT
I don't want to imprison more felons and madmen after they use a gun, I want to stop more from getting guns, and stop more people from selling guns to them.

I'm with you until you start talking pre-crime enforcement. Did you never watch Minority Report?

This nation was NOT founded on the idea that law enforcement should engage itself with pre-crime enforcement. We DO penalize criminals AFTER the act. That's one of the most fundamental principles of freedom!

That's how the most efficient laws work.

NO! That's how "efficient" pre-crime, police-state laws work. I do NOT want to live in a pre-crime police state! I want to live in the state the founders designed, which was a libertarian state. In such a state of freedom, there WILL be prices to pay. Our founders thought that "the people" would NEVER be willing to "give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety."

Yet, here we are talking about doing EXACTLY that... and all motivated by drop-in-the-bucket statistics and a twisted pre-crime notion of "law enforcement."

Look, as I've said before, you want state-managed (NOT fed-managed) background checks, no problem. Have all you want. I don't give a rip, because they are insignificant and irrelevant. (BTW, you can SAY that they would keep "some" nut jobs from getting a gun, but you have no basis to say that. ALL of the nut jobs that we actually know of that had any trouble getting a gun just found other means.)

But I won't sit idly by while you and others like you try to empower the FEDS to make this nation into more and more of a pre-crime police state! Keep it in the hands of the states, and you've got no argument from me. Try to put it in the hands of the FEDS, and you've got a fight on your hands.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 4, 2014 - 01:55pm PT
I want to live in the state the founders designed, which was a libertarian state

There never has been and never will be a Libertarian state, the founders created a libertarian-based Federal government in an attempt to achieve unity between thirteen emphatically non-libertarian states. That attempt failed violently within 80 years. The civil war settled the ability of the Federal government to operate as it currently does, certainly that was not how the founders intended, but it has lasted longer, and far more people got to vote on the fourteenth amendment than ever voted for the first ten.

TE
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Sep 4, 2014 - 02:12pm PT
Ahh... so because "perfection" (by your narrow definition, because the 13 states emphatically WERE libertarian... so much so that it was the BASIS of the anti-federalist papers!) did not get achieved, then we should just continue to pitch off the cliff until we are in a free-fall of pure pre-crime nanny-statism?

Sorry. No. THAT I will fight!
Messages 5761 - 5780 of total 5849 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews