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TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 2, 2014 - 06:06am PT
It's a simple question: Can you goofballs find one single thing wrong with this woman having a gun and using it as she did?

Nothing, but unless you can find a couple of thousand of those stories each week, they don't balance out the illegal uses facilitated by the current absurd ease of getting and carrying a gun, and absurd penalties for helping those criminals. They wouldn't balance out the illegal uses perpetrated by up to then "law abiding" citizens. They wouldn't even balance out the number of deaths and injuries caused by careless handling each year.

On a constructive note, I agree that when the government not only fails, but refuses to even try to protect its citizens from violence, that prohibiting people from owning guns for protection is "not good", for want of a less contentious term. I would like to see the ownership and use of guns for self-defense, like another divisive issue, to be safe, legal and rare. Reducing gun crime is the goal, but reducing legal demand for guns would a beneficial secondary effect.

There are no simple or quick solutions, but there are several steps that could be taken. Universal background checks, that you and 90% of the population support. Much stricter regulation of dealers and much stricter penalties for straw-purchasers and rogue dealers. Much better training before public carrying of guns and much stricter penalties for illegally carrying a gun (a misdemeanor in most states). Abolish stand your ground laws, which are a playbook for murderer and an excuse to shoot first, ask questions later. None of these infringes on anybody's right to self-defense or freedom to decide what weapon is most suitable for that purpose.

So, if this thread had caused you to go out and buy a gun, know also that it has increased my contribution to Americans for Responsible Solutions PAC, and my determination to financially support the Democratic Party candidate in the upcoming election for an open congressional seat in my swing district. My way leaves less dead people.

TE
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 2, 2014 - 07:37am PT
Tradeddie, aren't you same dude posting up on the Ferguson thread against excessive Police force in this country?

Not me at all. But if armed police killed fifty innocent people for every one dead criminal (as is the case with civilian-owned guns), I certainly would.

I spent ten years of my life shooting guns almost every single week, I have repeatedly said I have no problem with guns, no problem with responsible gun ownership, or responsible gun trade, however simply trusting people to be responsible is a sure way be be disappointed. Legally mandated responsibility for the ownership, carrying and sale of guns, and genuine penalties for those that are irresponsible would be a huge step forward in saving the lives of thousands of Americans each year.

Please explain to me why it's illegal to buy a gun for someone else (even if that person is not prohibited, as a recent court case determined), but perfectly legal to buy a gun, then sell it the next day to a total stranger, even posting online that the sale will require no background check?

TE
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 2, 2014 - 07:51am PT
Wrong! Publicly illegally carrying a loaded weapon is a felony in most states

Without other aggravating factors, such as being prohibited from owning guns, or while committing another crime, I'll stand by my original statement. Show me otherwise and I'll retract and apologize.

California - First offense - misdemeanor.
Pennsylvania - Misdemeanor.
Nevada - A Gross Misdemeanor.
Colorado - Misdemeanor.
Chicago - Class A misdemeanor.

Where do you live?

TE
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 2, 2014 - 07:55am PT
What state/s is that process legal in?

Every state where is is legal to privately sell a gun as long as you do not know or "reasonably believe" the buyer to be prohibited. Suspicion is not belief, and who could know the legal history of a total stranger?

TE
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Sep 2, 2014 - 07:58am PT
In NEVADA, it is perfectly legal to open carry a loaded firearm most any where you wish, unless posted otherwise, also, govt bulidings, schools and such. In some other states , no permit is required to carry concealed.


And the trend is going that way. More and more states are combining carry permit acceptance from other states as well.. Concealed classes have never been more full, and gun purchases are still at all time highs.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 2, 2014 - 07:58am PT
You have a viable source for that claim.

200 justifiable civilian homicides, vs. 10,000+ murders. But you wouldn't trust the CDC or FBI statistics anyway, so why ask?

And don't give me any crap about all the times guns are legally used to prevent a crime without being discharged, because for every one of those there are many more crimes where the gun wasn't discharged either.

TE
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 2, 2014 - 07:59am PT
In NEVADA, it is perfectly legal to open carry a loaded firearm most any where you wish, unless posted otherwise, also, govt bulidings, schools and such. In some other states , no permit is required to carry concealed.


And the trend is going that way. More and more states are combining carry permit acceptance from other states as well.. Concealed classes have never been more full, and gun purchases are still at all time highs.

At least Nevada requires classes, that's more than many states, and one of the items on my wishlist.

TE
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Sep 2, 2014 - 08:05am PT
At work, im asked countless times about concealed carrying. I advise those folks that with the guns come responsibilities. Like shooting at least once every two or three weeks. Practicing point and shoot maneuvers. Becoming EFFICIENT in handling and target acquisition. And that it isnt just getting a permit, stuffing a gun in your waist line and calling it good. And judging by the local shooting range, i think for the most , they are listening.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Sep 2, 2014 - 08:31am PT
I dig how Tradeddie sounds so calm, while the Chief seems to be huffing and puffing.

Carry on:-)
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 2, 2014 - 08:54am PT
That has absolutely NOTHING to validate your original claim TRADEDDIE

Facts and numbers aren't your strongpoint? 10,000 murders by civilians with guns, divided by 200 justifiable homicides by civilians with guns = 50:1. If cops behaved liked that I'd want something done about it.

Nobody has been able to point out any factual statement of mine that was BS. If they can, I'll retract and apologize. You can criticize my opinions, I can take that, but if you want to call my numbers or facts BS, you need more.

Nevada Penal Code:
NRS 202.350 

1.  Except as otherwise provided in this section and NRS 202.355 and 202.3653 to 202.369, inclusive, a person within this State shall not:
(d) Carry concealed upon his or her person any
(3) Pistol, revolver or other firearm, or other dangerous or deadly weapon;
2.  Except as otherwise provided in NRS 202.275 and 212.185, a person who violates any of the provisions of:
(a) Paragraph (a) or (c) or subparagraph (2) or (4) of paragraph (d) of subsection 1 is guilty:
(1) For the first offense, of a gross misdemeanor.

NOT A FELONY!!!!! Be a man, admit you are wrong.

TE
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 2, 2014 - 09:36am PT
Selling guns to strangers: Only seventeen states have background check laws that exceed Federal law. Even among those seventeen, background checks are not required for all gun sales. I will admit an error I made in previous posts, Pennsylvania is now one of those states.

For the remaining states, (33 states, which is more than half, so a majority, i.e. most states), federal law applies, which says:

U.S. Code Title 18 Part I Chapter 44 922
18 U.S. Code 922 (d)
It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person (is prohibited from possession).

So, in 33 states, if you don't know or reasonably believe a buyer to be a criminal/psychopath/underage, it's perfectly legal to sell a gun to a total stranger without any background check.

Straw purchasing is illegal, but when the seller of a gun later used in a crime can simply say "I sold it to some dude in a bar", straw purchasing is virtually un-prosecutable unless it can be proven that the seller knew the purchaser was a criminal. The low odds of a prosecution, combined with the logistical difficulties of tracing crime guns means that very little police effort is spent on this.

TE

TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 2, 2014 - 09:37am PT
Ah, where in that PC does it state... "LOADED"?

Big difference between a "loaded" and "unloaded" weapon.

Show me where in Nevada code carrying a loaded gun is a felony in the absence of other circumstances.

TE
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 2, 2014 - 01:57pm PT
Your correction/apology is accepted, and it re-enforces the point I made to Madbolter a while ago when I pointed out that safety restrictions on firearms for hunting on private property are often far stricter than those for carrying in a crowded public place. That simply doesn't make sense.

You're also missing the point that while concealed carry requires a permit, carrying a concealed weapon without that permit is only a misdemeanor (in NV as I've shown, and many other states). That must really scare the gang-bangers, I doubt that it's even worth the cops or prosecutors time to bring it to court. The NRA would like you to think it's a felony, like they want you to think that selling guns to criminals is a felony. Otherwise you might support stricter gun laws, those that might actually reduce crimes, but also reduce gun sales.

TE
WBraun

climber
Sep 2, 2014 - 02:03pm PT
American anti gun nuts are stooopid.

The anti gun nuts will take everyone's guns away and then those anti gun nuts will be beheaded by knives.

:-)

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Sep 2, 2014 - 02:04pm PT
Will one of you gun-nutz please shoot that smoking duck?

Everyone knows smoking is illegal in this state.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 2, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
Chief, of course illegally carrying an illegal gun during execution of an illegal act is a felony, but I hope the penalties for such an act are already adequate. The penalties for "merely" carrying a concealed loaded weapon without a permit are not adequate deterrent in most states.

One of the "anti-gun" laws that I want is that all states would require training and competency tests for carrying of a loaded weapon in a public place, and that the penalty for carrying a loaded weapon in public without that permit would be a felony, sufficient at a minimum to prevent the perpetrator from ever legally owning a gun again. No law-abiding citizen would have their rights infringed by this.

Same goes for universal background checks, as long as even one state allows the private sale of guns to strangers without background checks, the effectiveness of the laws in states that prohibit such sales will be limited. At present 33 states allow these sales. It's simply not illegal to sell a gun to a criminal in 33 states. It's only illegal if you know he's a criminal, and only prosecutable if the courts can prove you knew it. If all gun sales required background checks, the "I sold it to some dude" defense would be gone and police would have more motivation to track recovered guns and prosecute straw purchasers.

Do you believe it should be legal to sell a gun to a total stranger, without a background check?

Where do you think criminals get their guns?

TE
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Sep 2, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
From Colt, of course.

DMT
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Sep 2, 2014 - 05:19pm PT
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/03/us/parents-didnt-realize-gun-instructor-had-been-shot-police-say.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=HpSumSmallMediaHigh&module=second-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0
Mad69Dog

Ice climber
Sep 2, 2014 - 05:22pm PT
How many dozens of guns would I need in my collection before someone thought it was too much?
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Sep 2, 2014 - 06:53pm PT
When I asked a former friend how many guns he had, he scratched his head and asked if he could guess to the nearest twenty. That's a good sign that he had too many.

Just a few years later, he was the subject of a domestic abuse restraining order, his wife was a world-class competitive pistol and sporting clay shooter but she realized that despite being armed, talented, trained and getting a restraining order, she needed to get out. Helping her leave that house is the only time in my life I felt it was remotely necessary to be armed for my own protection.

TE

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