The Gun debate sandbox

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 5441 - 5460 of total 5785 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 4, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
Yeah well a teen was killed yesterday in school by being hit in the head with a softball while playing..

getting back to a previous post of mine on this thread, the above statement by Ron is interesting to parse....

implied is the equivalence, in terms of likelihood, that playing softball at school is as dangerous as keeping handguns at home.

The determination of the statistical likelihoods requires data, and that data could be gathered by law enforcement and available to researchers except for explicitly written legislature that bars this data gathering/providing. This is a huge inhibition to the debate, since without the ability to study such things, all we have is advocacy by opinion by one side or the other.

Independent of how the research might play out, wouldn't it be wise for everyone to agree that we should be collecting this data and providing it to researchers? A much better picture could be formed of the effectiveness of handgun safety, handgun use, accidents, and all other aspects of the guns.

Why the prohibition on this aspect of guns? I don't know of anything else where such roadblocks have been put up to inhibit research.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
May 5, 2013 - 05:19pm PT
LaPierre: 'How many Bostonians wish they had a gun two weeks ago?'


Completely forgetting that both victims shot by the bombers WERE ARMED and the only thing that stopped one bad guy with a gun was BEING RUN OVER BY HIS BROTHER!

I heard on NPR that WLP also criticized politicians for "colluding with the people". How dare the people corrupt democracy like that, they should leave it to the vested interests like the founding fathers intended.

TE
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 5, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
He was full of holes and down on the ground when his brother ran over him.


Since 1984 327 children have drowned in buckets, about 30 a year.

http://www.preventinjury.org/PDFs/DROWNING.pdf

We need to ban buckets!

Better yet demand background checks and strict regulation of the possession of Dihydrogen Monoxide.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 5, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
Perhaps what we need most of all are mandatory school courses in logic.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 5, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
And statistics.

tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
May 5, 2013 - 07:15pm PT
That's gonna explode some minds
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
May 5, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
jesus christ almighty tooth. Explode minds? Maybe if you're an idiot. You think that puts a context to the problem that actually minimizes gun violence? The relevance of that statistical pie chart is classic cherry picking combined with exactly what ed just pointed out - false equivalency.

The ratio that is relevant to a civil society is gun violence per capita. Why? because guns are by far the most efficient killing machines available and when widely available they are used as the preferred tool of violence to the detriment of civil society by an exponential rate of efficiency. American society is living proof. All other civil societies that limit access to these killing machines are generally speaking LESS VIOLENT and as a consequence MORE CIVIL. Comparable societies that had the political will and moral back bone to change from the American stupidity to reasonable restrictions ( Australia for instance) have realized A MARKED DECREASE IN GUN VIOLENCE.

The false equivalency is that stating that mortality as a result of disease or accident is the equivalence as the result of violent crime. It most certainly is not due to our concept of moral principle that constitutes the structure of our society. Maybe in fuking Somalia it is the same but you have to ask yourself if you consider our societal values ( and effective ability to support) the same. If you do fine, gun violence mortality is no different that getting run over by an errant drunk taxi driver.

This is the single most relevant question you jack asses have to ask yourselves. Are you the same as Somalia or not? If not then grow a back bone and tell your gun nuts to surrender their machine guns and prove their capacity for responsible civilian gun ownership.

This simple act will change your culture just as easily as the Australians did, possibly with similar results.

TGT you should be ashamed of yourself for being such an idiot.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
May 5, 2013 - 07:50pm PT
Well said Bruce
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 5, 2013 - 07:59pm PT
Yearly there is 1 child killed by a gun for every 1 million-plus guns.

There is one drowning of a child for every 11,000 residential swimming pools.

Obviously we need to ban swimming pools!
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
May 5, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
NO. we need to ban idiots and their false equivalencies
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 5, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
Mr Kay writes:

"All other civil societies that limit access to these killing machines are generally speaking LESS VIOLENT and as a consequence MORE CIVIL."



You mean someplace with limited firearm access like Mexico?

Or Brazil?

Venezuela?

Those places are less violent than the U.S.?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
May 5, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
someone's mind just exploded and spewed all over their keyboard
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
May 5, 2013 - 08:18pm PT


The ratio that is relevant to a civil society is gun violence per capita. Why? because guns are by far the most efficient killing machines available and when widely available they are used as the preferred tool of violence to the detriment of civil society by an exponential rate of efficiency. American society is living proof. All other civil societies that limit access to these killing machines are generally speaking LESS VIOLENT and as a consequence MORE CIVIL.



After leaving the USA where there was a lot more gun crime, most all done by idiots, and moving to BC where I know a lot more people/friends/neighbors who own guns, but fewer idiots, and almost no gun crime I can see now how gun crime over many years increases or decreases as a result of the laws that shape society. Initially, no, there will be idiots who grew up thinking guns should be toys. But yeah, given a few generations and new laws in the US, things could change, like I said earlier in this thread, (months ago?)
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
May 5, 2013 - 08:37pm PT
Chaz that is my precise point. I f you consider the USA to be on a par with Brazil, Mexico or whatever then fine. I get it. Much worse would be Somalia but if your country is that fuked up I would be the first to aknowledge it really is justified that personal security requires an ability to shoot back.

Surely you guys are not that far gone eh?

Regardless, TGT s effort was incredibly disingenuous to say the least. This whole issue has to do with how civil your society is, of which willful violent crime per capita is of much more proportional significance than accidental or disease death. Think about. Only in the worst shitholes is it considered of equal significance.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 5, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
Mr Kay writes:

"I f you consider the USA to be on a par with Brazil, Mexico or whatever then fine. I get it."



I don't consider America to be on par with any other country. We're exceptional.

But of you want to compare different countries, you can't cherry-pick the ones that seem to advance your point while ignoring similar ones that would contradict it.

Mexico, Brazil, and Venezuela are all civilized democracies, yet harsh gun laws there have caused their murder rates to skyrocket.

Laws don't always work the way you want them to, and the liberal left doesn't have a good track record of predicting the effects of the laws they pass.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
May 5, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
I don't think I'm at risk of getting shot. I just hate the NRA.
jghedge

climber
May 5, 2013 - 08:53pm PT
"Obviously we need to ban swimming pools!"

How many of the drownings were intentional, and how many of the shootings weren't, is really the only relevant metric in this discussion.
jghedge

climber
May 5, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
"Mexico, Brazil, and Venezuela are all civilized democracies, yet harsh gun laws there have caused their murder rates to skyrocket."

There are 32 countries considered to have equal social/economic status with the US, as listed by the World Bank/IMF

http://richleebruce.com/economics/1st-world.html

And no, none of the countries you cite make the list.
jghedge

climber
May 5, 2013 - 09:05pm PT

"TGT you should be ashamed of yourself for being such an idiot."

The gun nut's favorite ploy is to try to compare accident and disease statistics with homicide statistics - because that's the least idiotic comparison they can come up with.


Which in and of itself speaks volumes about the absolute bankruptcy of their argument, and their (lack of) morality.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 5, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
How about Chicago?

Chicago has exactly equal social/economic status with the US, and extremely harsh gun prohibition. And look what those harsh gun laws have done to the murder rate there.
Messages 5441 - 5460 of total 5785 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews