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apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 23, 2015 - 08:01pm PT
Nah, I got it, TGT. Same ole, same ole TGT Krap®.

"...when misinformed people, particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected facts in news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often became even more strongly set in their beliefs. "

Why bother?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 23, 2015 - 08:10pm PT
Ah' yes!

Life is so much better in those WONDERFUL! gun prohibited "progressive" urban utopias.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Mar 23, 2015 - 08:26pm PT
Thanks for the Shaw correction, I was on the phone...

My intention concerns the matter of degree and simple common sense. It's not good enough to think a holstered handgun is better than a long gun as a a social fashion accessory.
zBrown

Ice climber
BrujÚ de la Playa
Mar 23, 2015 - 08:31pm PT
Anyone ever try to blow up TNT with a cherry bomb?

Asserted, but never proved, G Gordon Liddy blew up one of Nixon's tapes with one.

Hope you get off on this, fire in your hole, eh?




madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 23, 2015 - 08:37pm PT
It's not good enough to think a holstered handgun is better than a long gun as a a social fashion accessory.

Ahh, now I understand what you mean. Thanks.

But there is where we part company. You insist on using loaded language like "fashion accessory," which is patently ridiculous.

I agree that slung long guns are just odd, although in general only the Texas "protesters" were doing that. I expect that the incidence of long-gun carrying will dramatically decrease as soon as Texas passes a sane open-carry law regarding pistols.

The idea that the open-carrying of holstered pistols is a "fashion accessory" is a flagrant straw-manning of the real and legitimate motivations that people actually have.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Mar 23, 2015 - 08:41pm PT
If you don't think there is personal pleasure involved with the look and ownership of a material object, you are truly a theorist.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 23, 2015 - 09:00pm PT
If you don't think there is personal pleasure involved with the look and ownership of a material object, you are truly a theorist.

If you don't think that there is MUCH more motivating gun-carrying than a "fashion statement," then you are truly unaware of social realities.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 23, 2015 - 09:04pm PT
I find myself agreeing with "ontheedge&scaredtodeath" with his posts on this thread.

His most-recent one expresses my views too:
I grew up around guns and chainsaws and all that too. Paid my way through college and grad school teaching shooting at a place in Wyoming, fighting fires and doing tree work. So what? I'm supposed to accept that it's normal to walk around parks or churches with a loaded gun? My kids will be taught proper gun safety and respect, not stupid paranoid protection bullsh#t.


I look down on those who work at making other people uncomfortable by openly wearing firearms in normal social venues, like stores, games, schools, bars, etc. I also believe they know they are making people uncomfortable, and they enjoy being azzholes.



Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Mar 23, 2015 - 09:10pm PT
Thanks for projecting Richard. Did I say anything about fashion being the end of the story ?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 23, 2015 - 09:17pm PT
It's not good enough to think a holstered handgun is better than a long gun as a a social fashion accessory.

Ahh, so tell me what "more" there is to your story.

What "more" than "as a fashion accessory" were you contemplating in your "whore" quote?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 23, 2015 - 09:28pm PT
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/03/22/introducing-the-terrifying-personal-flamethrower-that-is-apparently-legal-in-48-states/?tid=trending_strip_2
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Mar 23, 2015 - 09:41pm PT
I look down on those who work at making other people uncomfortable by openly wearing firearms in normal social venues, like stores, games, schools, bars, etc. I also believe they know they are making people uncomfortable, and they enjoy being azzholes.

Yep. No question there are many such individuals, but certainly not all. Open carry to a Starbucks is an as#@&%e move any way you cut it.

DMT
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Mar 23, 2015 - 09:42pm PT
But there is obviously more to it.

And your "whore" is a human. Far more complex than just fashion.

See how much fun it is when other people play the obfuscation game also ?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 23, 2015 - 09:56pm PT
And your "whore" is a human. Far more complex than just fashion.

Your use of the "whore" in the quote was metaphor. And you explicitly made it no more complex than fashion.

See how much fun it is when other people play the obfuscation game also ?

Do you take me to be playing any game? Do you think that this discussion, at least from my perspective, is nothing more than an attempt to play "cheap, logic parlor tricks"?

If so, my friend, you have wildly misread me. I deeply care about this sort of thing, and I am not attempting to be a "lawyer" in my argumentation, using sophistry to "win".
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Mar 23, 2015 - 09:58pm PT
I look down on those who work at making other people uncomfortable by openly wearing firearms in normal social venues, like stores, games, schools, bars, etc. I also believe they know they are making people uncomfortable, and they enjoy being azzholes.

Yup
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Mar 23, 2015 - 10:07pm PT
You trotted out your like of a pistol in a holster instead of a slung rifle in public. Are you just haggling with the same thing over price ?

And yeah, you don't play fair when you're given straight answers to questions like, "Is there any 'war on' anything a government has won". Your question was general. You were given some general examples that answered your question. You then turned it into obfuscation by saying none of the answers had anything to do with guns.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 24, 2015 - 12:44am PT
You then turned it into obfuscation by saying none of the answers had anything to do with guns.

No, actually, the "general" statement I made about the "wars on" explicitly referred to supply-side "wars on," (even using prohibition repeatedly as my exemplar case), and this was also the context of the post I was responding to. There was nothing "general" about it.

And your "out of the blue," vague, misquoted metaphor bears no resemblance to that.

Then I get responses that are all over the place, not supply-side prohibitions, and that don't reference any "product" that anybody has a demand for.

So I then pointed out that the "examples" were not examples of supply-side "wars on" and were thus irrelevant to trying to stop the "epidemic of gun violence" by initiating yet another supply-side "war on" something that can't work.

If you can't get the supply/demand aspect of why no such "war on" is going to work, then there's nothing I can say, generally or explicitly, that's going to help you. Go ahead and try to start another prohibition. The government's "wars on" efforts do NOT work in supply/demand cases.

If you call obvious context "obfuscation," and try to compare it to your out-of-the-blue metaphor, then you aren't even trying to be intellectually charitable. And if your "whore" metaphor is your example of comparable "obfuscation," then I would have to suggest that you look at my response to it, which was to express that I didn't understand your intention and context; so I asked you to clarify.

Meanwhile, I've asked you for the other parts of the story you intended besides "fashion statements," and you have just waved your hands at "obviously others" without actually mentioning anything else.

It's clear now that there was no "obvious" anything to the metaphor. You weren't arguing honestly. You were attempting a set-up. But if you didn't understand the context or intention of my "war on" statement, you could have responded to me as I just did to you and asked for clarification.

Really, seriously, Jim. This whole exchange has caused me to lose a lot of respect for you that I had prior to it. I had thought you to be one of the few in this semi-discussion that was rising above all the pot-shots and personal attacks to actually discuss with intellectual honesty.

Communication is hard enough, and in a forum thread, absolute clarity is impossible to achieve. If I think I must not understand somebody's position or statement, I ask for clarification. I had thought you would also take that route.

I expect the strident snipers to fire off at me. I'm surprised at such a lame set-up coming from you.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 24, 2015 - 12:54am PT
Are you just haggling with the same thing over price ?

If it's not obvious to you that there is a qualitative difference, then I can see why you think it's just "haggling."

In that event, I would say that there is no bridging the gulf between us. You are among some on this thread that simply want to see some sort of "ban" on guns. Maybe you vaguely think they can be owned but not carried. Maybe you think that open-carry should never be legal. I don't know, and, actually, I no longer care.

Your lame, "triumphant" set-up makes me not interested in arguing with you any further. You are not really arguing; you are just maneuvering, and that's not the same thing.

You'll certainly say that I'm just doing the same thing. I won't argue the point. People will form their own opinions.

This isn't mine but has appeared all around. It's worth looking at again....

Credit: madbolter1
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Mar 24, 2015 - 09:24am PT
Believe it or not, I don't have a problem with guns or the vast majority of gun owners. That's one of the reasons I posted the link concerning the 2 BILLION dollar Canadian gun registry fiasco. I thought it would be instructive.

I get bent up by any extremism, pro or con.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 24, 2015 - 05:15pm PT
Different culture, different concerns, but in Israel people wear their AR 15s to market and their neighbors feel safer for it.

And soldiers standing beside a road with an Uzi or assault rifle need barely stick out a thumb to hitch a ride.
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