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donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 10, 2015 - 10:12am PT
The 10,000th post on this thread will have the same people arguing the same points. If it makes everyone feel good, by all means....carry on!
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 10, 2015 - 10:19am PT
madbolter posted
So, I guess I'm not clear about what you think should be changed or acknowledged. And I deny the special condemnation of "white males" that has become fashionable. We've been evil! So has EVERY sort of human being down through history!

A long winded obfuscation excusing slavery and genocide? I'm shocked!

madbolter continued
The fact that the constitution does not, for example, explicitly define what a "human being" is (such as regarding the abortion issue) is actually a strength of it. It leaves a wide range of "cultural" and philosophical debates entirely alone. .

Again, something you see as a strength only because you are part of the cultural majority and do not suffer the ill effects of its exclusion. Your reduction of the definition of "human" to a "cultural debate" is a serious moral failing and your dismissal of the condemnation of white males (the historic and continued power bloc in this country) as "fashionable" is embarrassing.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 10, 2015 - 10:55am PT
A long winded obfuscation excusing slavery and genocide? I'm shocked!

The fact that you can read what I wrote as "excusing slavery and genocide" proves to me that you are not even trying to be intellectually honest, and I'll have nothing more to do with you.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Apr 10, 2015 - 11:04am PT
We'll just have to disagree about the all-powerful aspect of the Fed, the Civil War settled the matter with resounding finality, imo. No state has been successful in usurping that power, since, so far as I know.

Cheers
DMT
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 10, 2015 - 11:06am PT
madbolter
The fact that you can read what I wrote as "excusing slavery and genocide" proves to me that you are not even trying to be intellectually honest, and I'll have nothing more to do with you.

Your inability to examine your own biases undermines any illusion of "intellectual honesty" on your part, my friend. You literally posted a "so white guys committed acts of genocide, so did a lot of other people!" defense in an attempt to derail a conversation pointing out that the lack of specificity in the Constitution actually allowed for many grievous acts to be legally committed which completely destroys your Pollyanna view of Constitutional purity.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 10, 2015 - 11:08am PT
We'll just have to disagree about the all-powerful aspect of the Fed, the Civil War settled the matter with resounding finality, imo. No state has been successful in usurping that power, since, so far as I know.

I think we're in agreement about what IS the state of affairs. Perhaps we're not in agreement about how the state of affairs was designed to be and should be.

That the civil war "settled it" applies only to the fact that the experiment in federalism failed. As the anti-federalists had feared, the federal government DID (and quite quickly) usurp all power unto itself.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 10, 2015 - 11:19am PT
the lack of specificity in the Constitution actually allowed for many grievous acts to be legally committed which completely destroys your Pollyanna view of Constitutional purity.

I have never suggested that the constitution is "pure"! I have stated that the principles that grounded its writing were correct.

And your idea of "bias" is quite ridiculous! The fact that I'm a "white male" doesn't mean that I am incapable of having an educated and sweeping perspective about human rights and human interactions in general. You assert that my "white maleness" by definition means that I cannot "see" clearly, and that is patently ridiculous.

HUMANS have been treating each other like crap forever! White males have been no worse in this regard than any other race/culture/creed! So when YOU single out "white males" for special condemnation, you reveal your OWN PC bias that does not take the sweep of human history into account.

And WHAT would you have the constitution say? Would you have it meticulously define every possible relation, entity, and activity?

What it DID was more brilliant: It laid out fundamental principles and the basis of rights, and then it provided mechanisms by which PEOPLE could work out cultural issues and additional definitions going forward.

There are people that think the constitution MUST be amended to include fetuses as human beings with the full slate of human rights. There are other people that thing the constitution has NO business doing any such thing! WHICH perspective "should" the constitution have enshrined?

It's obvious to you, now, that the constitution should have taken on the slavery issue at the outset. Easy to say NOW. But it was hard enough to GET a constitution of ANY form in that day. The constitution took NO position on slavery, just as it attempted NO definition of "human being." Thus, the constitution did not "allow" slavery any more than it now "allows" abortion. It was AGNOSTIC on the subject, allowing the PEOPLE to work out the practical implications of the PRINCIPLES it enshrined. The fact that PEOPLE are screwed up, evil, and utterly self-serving cannot be fixed by ANY constitution!

"Purity"? What a laugh! The constitution is FAR from "pure" or "perfect"! But the PRINCIPLES it established were correct (as far as they went), and the surround documents written by the founders provide the most thorough (and largely correct) slate of political philosophizing every produced by human beings.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 10, 2015 - 11:37am PT
Jim, your dogma is not allowed in my karma.


When it comes to accuracy for decades I have been a .45acp kind of guy, but between 9 being the new 22 and the sweetness of the trigger, my new CZ 75T is certainly on the rise, Ron.
Plus the 20 round clip, bevelled mag well, thin checkered grips make it super fun to practice rapid engagement.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Apr 10, 2015 - 12:30pm PT
I think we're in agreement about what IS the state of affairs. Perhaps we're not in agreement about how the state of affairs was designed to be and should be.

That the civil war "settled it" applies only to the fact that the experiment in federalism failed. As the anti-federalists had feared, the federal government DID (and quite quickly) usurp all power unto itself.

OK, fair and reasonable enough.

Cheers
DMT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 10, 2015 - 01:19pm PT
Have a good weekend. I hope your back is much better!
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Apr 10, 2015 - 02:19pm PT
I wish that some day you guys who seem to think that drooling over gun porn is somehow an admirable character trait would actually sit down for a few moments, clear your brains, and consider two facts:

1) The U.S. is the only "civilized nation" on planet earth that doesn't have a taxpayer funded universal health care system for all citizens.

2) The U.S. has the highest murder rate in the civilized world, most of which are committed by firearms.

There are many things to admire about the U.S., but this infantile obsession with high power weaponry isn't one of them, especially Ron Anderson's most recent love affair with ammunition that is specifically designed to kill people - a design feature that will be happily embraced by every nutbar who wants to kill a cop, or any other law abiding citizen for that matter.

If you've got to play with guns, there are plenty of target ranges out there and lots of game to hunt. You most definitely don't need assault weapons to do this stuff, regardless of what you believe to be your "rights".
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 10, 2015 - 06:38pm PT
Stewart....you are so right on and you are so speaking to deaf ears.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Apr 10, 2015 - 06:58pm PT
Toker,

I had no idea that shooting from the hip on my part, was construed as accurate...

So in the pursuit of fair play concerning guns, I'll accept the censure of freedom and make sure everyone is armed at the next children's birthday party I attend...

LOL ! No, really, from the bottom of my heart... I wish I could stop laughing !
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 10, 2015 - 07:12pm PT
Wait! Wait, Jim....

Earlier I had been thinking, "It's about time for Jim to hop on and deliver his regularly-scheduled, belittling commentary on how from his lofty vantage he is able to inform us that this discussion is all insignificant and that we're all wasting our time with it."

And then you DID, and I felt really good about it! I love to see you waste YOUR time to tell us how we're wasting our time. And right on time too!

Except that this time you are actually expressing an opinion! You've taken a SIDE (gasp!).

Care to ARGUE for your statement, or is the mere fact that you've issued it all we need in order for us to KNOW which side is the correct one?

Hmmm... if you ARGUE for your opinion, then you are wasting your time along with us; and you just rebuked us for doing that. Yet, if you don't, then you're just baldly pontificating.

But wait, even your claim that it's all a worthless waste of time is itself just bald pontificating.

I guess that we're ALL entitled to our opinion and to the expression of it, even when such expression falls on deaf ears regarding a waste-of-time topic.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 10, 2015 - 07:25pm PT
People that seem to blame firearms or any other inanimate object (drugs, booze, etc) for the ills of a society remind me somewhat of deeply religious people who participate in an organized religion.

There's just no reason to be had and no chance of convincing them one way or the other.

And that's ok.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 10, 2015 - 08:55pm PT
I've got some theory's on why there's so much pontification from BC on their southern cousins. Won't go into them now. It might be considered un PC now.


Once a pone a time I met a young Quebecker couple in JTree that uncharacteristically for native French speaker weren't complaining about everything, but they did whine about their worries about getting hurt in a country without a government run medical system.

I S'plained it to 'em.

They take you to the county hospital, you get the finest treatment available from what is usually a university affiliated teaching hospital on the local taxpayers dime and then you skip out on the bill like every other illegal alien.


As far as the murder rate goes;
When you factor out the "progressively" run urban areas, the murder rate is a bit lower than that exceedingly violent country,

Belgium.


Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Apr 10, 2015 - 08:58pm PT
Ron: Glad to see that you read my post so carefully.

By the "civilized world", I assumed that even you would understand that I referred to the democracies on this planet, and I stand by my words...

as well as my other statements.

And please don't shout, assuming that you comprehend that the use of capitalized letters on the internet apparently indicate that intent.

TGT: have at it and, by the way, I guess that your health care system exists solely to provide free health care to Canadians, so I guess that all those stories of U.S. citizens who are financially destroyed by illness or injury are just fabrications of your socialist media, and patriots like you are just too polite to provide the facts to the rest of the world.


Furthermore, I'm about as interested in what's PC as you are. Unlike you, I have a mind of my own.

Belgium? Nice factoring - now if we just consider only the Mojave Desert, the U.S. murder rate is practically zero. I guess you learned your math from Chaz.


Chaz: give me a break - how many people live in Greenland? Assuming that your comment is supported by facts, in the event that you are capable of understanding mathematics, a tiny population sample is pretty fertile ground for all kid of amazing statistical games. Get real. Who else is on this list?

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 10, 2015 - 09:05pm PT
Stewart writes:

"By the "civilized world", I assumed that even you would understand that I referred to the democracies on this planet, and I stand by my words..."


You mean like Greenland? Their homicide rate is several times greater than the U.S. rate. They're not the only democracy with a worse murder rate than the U.S.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Apr 10, 2015 - 09:22pm PT
That's great MB1, I'd LOL at your preconceived opinion of me but that would be presumptuous... (joke)

I would reason that sidearms at a birthday party for children would be more an adult's fantasy in real time than anything a kid would request.

I know, some people have stated they were being trained by their parents and shooting guns at 5 years old. Did I have a problem with that ? No, I didn't.

Try some common sense and what is appropriate in context to a given social situation. That's what I'm about. Open carry is like having your dick erect in public. God gave you that gift, it's how you play with it that matters...
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Apr 10, 2015 - 09:34pm PT
Gee Ron, TGT, and Chaz - nice try.

I was referring to firearm related homicides. I thought that was clear, and I'm absolutely right. My apologies if I wasn't clear.

The U.S. is at the top of the list by a country mile.
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