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madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 11, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
i'm sure some want to be heroes. nobody wants to be the goat. nobody wants to be dead. Most would like some chance to defend self. Not everybody wants to be the sheepdog and protect the masses. I think the majority just want to protect self and family.

SUCH a well-crafted post, Scott. You've really expressed the sometimes conflicting considerations of taking such a responsibility. And it is so true that a gun tends to "magnify" whatever sort of personality a person already has.

I do think that the great "equalizer" in gun carry is how serious are the repercussions if you ever do shoot someone! You almost certainly will be arrested and go out in cuffs. And from there, there are only two possible outcomes: 1) your shooting will be determined to be 100% legitimate, or 2) you are going to prison. So, exacting knowledge of the law, coupled with going over countless "what if" scenarios for legitimacy are both necessary conditions for being responsible at this level. That weight has a mitigating effect on people that even have a "hero" or "bad ass" complex.

Hopefully it is mitigating enough. As we see from CCW and open-carry states, it seems to be in the vast majority of cases.

When I took Kung Fu (a sort of hybrid, street-fight version) for six years, our instructor used to tell us often, "You are doing well, but don't act like a bad-ass. No matter how bad-ass you ever become, there IS somebody out there that can KICK your ass. And you won't know who he is until after you wake up from it... IF you wake up from it." That has stuck in my mind over the many years, and I've always been one to "run from a fight" if possible.

Let's face it, even a "fist fight" can quickly escalate into much, much more! Being armed for the most extreme contingency MEANS doing everything possible to AVOID even the start of an escalation!

And a gun carrier should KNOW that every word, every gesture, every expression will be evaluated by at least a grand jury, not to mention internal recriminations as one later reviews what he/she might have done differently or better to avoid shooting someone.

It is DEADLY force, and carries deadly responsibility! "Bad-ass" types should really look in the mirror, take a deep breath, and ask: "Is my personality or attitude going to get somebody needlessly killed and me dead or in prison?" Probably good medicine to take at least once daily!
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jul 11, 2014 - 03:48pm PT
http://toprightnews.com/?p=4354
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 11, 2014 - 03:57pm PT
A5scott: "most criminals want the least resistance possible. at the sight of a gun, most are gone."



A) you answered your own question there. When you asked of open carry or concealed carry was better. Like i asked an NHP when he asked me about my open carry - "well what is the better deterrent, concealed or open"..I got a "touche" for an answer.


B) Most criminals will NOT start something with someone open carrying 99% of the time or better. Why? Because of the same irrational fears being expressed in this very thread about open carrying citizens ..Funny that 99% of the people are OBLIVIOUS to small arms being carried openly. (pretty much OBLIVIOUS period but thats another topic)
xtrmecat

Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
Jul 11, 2014 - 05:05pm PT
The Fet said, "Any type of carry may help. But it can only do so much. If someone draws on you first, it doesn't really matter that you have a gun. I'm sure there are lots of people who carry who engage in riskier behavior because they have a gun. It's much safer to avoid a bad situation in the first place.
I would strongly disagree with this paragraph on many points. If someone draws first it doesn't matter who gets a hand on what first. Training will prevail in nearly every situation. That is why we train. Madbolter covered this somewhat. If someone was stupid enough to draw on myself or one of the people I train with, I am afraid he would have made a grave error. Training would take over reactions and he would be the recipient of a controlled pair to the torso or head, depending...

Partake in riskier behavior? Huh? What in the world would make someone think this. Quite the opposite. As a CCW participant, I would agree I am much more aware of my surroundings, people seen and not. I see no parallel of riskier behavior when carrying a gun as not. It may help someone to go through a scarier situation with more confidence, but why in the world would I walk into trouble when the whole point is self preservation and protection of loved ones, rather than walk away. I don't see your logic, but I see it quite differently. Your last sentence sums up the attitude of all the carriers I know. I think we are more aware of what is going on in the world than your average Joe, due to training, and practice. I know I have been spotted as a ccw by others doing the same, only because we check out all those that could have an opportunity to do us harm, and a gun printing a shirt lets me know there is potential, good or bad.

Scott said, "

as far as open vs. CCW? which is better? hard to say. If I'd open carry, that could just make me the first target. kill me, get my gun then harm others. CCW the criminals don't know who to mess with.
that Dian Sawyer video trying to show CCW people are stupid... they mark the helmet of the one person with the gun, so the gunman comes in and shoots him before he can react. set up to fail.

most criminals want the least resistance possible. at the sight of a gun, most are gone.

Open carry would indeed make you first on an elimination list should you find yourself in a bad way. You may be right that most criminals want the least resistance. When a mugger is scoping out a few folks for his next mark, A concealed carry person will probably not be on the list of maybes. It has to do with eye contact and body English. If you carry and train at all, your body motions and eyes won't exude "victim". If you were to be caught up in being in the wrong place at the wrong time, you have the tactical advantage as you know who is trouble, but you appear as another "Joe" to the threat. Been drilled into my head by many a trainer.

I applaud madbolter1 for his choices and his great use and articulation of words. A mature and reasonable response to some unlike thinkers goes a lot further than an unruly loudmouth trying to make the whole world see things his way. I also love his attitude of not being a victim any longer, but is proactive in his own safety. We met near the bridge a couple years ago, my wife did not please you, and your reaction to her make me laugh heartily. You certainly are a character, and wish I had conversed more with you.


The fet, I see you may have read it and don't agree. I tend to find the article and topic very well written and documented by a professional. I can see someone who doesn't like it as disagreeing, but not offering up any solid arguments backed with credentials, and experience in the field just doesn't convince me. A climbing partner who is also qualified carries the same opinion as the article writer. Hmm.


Burly Bob





TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 11, 2014 - 09:06pm PT
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 12, 2014 - 07:55am PT
TradEddie posted
I'm still waiting for any legitimate reason for a civilian to carry a loaded military rifle in a public place (or even a single shot hunting rifle, or black powder musket for that matter). What you do on private property is your business.

Because if you don't exercise your rights then you lose them, see? That's why I'm always telling soldiers that they cannot stay at my house and screaming offensive words in public places. It's what the Founding Fathers would have wanted.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 12, 2014 - 08:49am PT
Funny how many that argue against guns know damm little about them.. "Military rifles"??? Im willing to bet there wasnt ONE "military rifle" displayed in Texas by a citizen,, not ONE..

Reminds me of that female legislator who said: "Wont all the magazines be useless after they are out of bullets in them?"
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jul 12, 2014 - 09:00am PT
Gee Ron, that's easy:

A military rifle is a rifle used by someone in the military.


StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 12, 2014 - 09:08am PT
People carrying guns are more likely to get shot, especially in self-defense situations.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17922-carrying-a-gun-increases-risk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html#.U8Fcr41dX2w

Edit -

I will concede that they say the study was just beginning and the the dynamics are not completely understood, but this is a cause for concern.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jul 12, 2014 - 09:20am PT
Funny how many that argue against guns know damm little about them.. "Military rifles"??? Im willing to bet there wasnt ONE "military rifle" displayed in Texas by a citizen,, not ONE..

I have never argued against guns, only for laws that make it more difficult for criminals to get guns, mandatory training for carrying guns in public places and laws that make irresponsible ownership a criminal offense. I would also make dealers subject to much more extensive requirements with regards to security and record-keeping, and much stricter criminal punishments for those that fail to meet them.

As for the "military rifles", I was simply trying to avoid the "assault rifle" quagmire. There was a picture of a man carrying an AK-47 style rifle in Target a few pages back, you can classify it however you want, just give me an answer to my question.

Lastly, I voluntarily served in the military reserves of my native country, if your definition of a military rifle is a full-auto rifle in use by the military, I've fired far more "military rifles" than you.

TE
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jul 12, 2014 - 09:22am PT
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 12, 2014 - 09:51am PT
Then you should know the difference eh? There were NO "military" rifles there. The rifles that were there were NO DIFFERENT than any other SEMI auto deer rifle. A 308 rifle in a classic model is the very same as a 308 in an AR STYLE. They fire one shot with each squeeze eh.


But saying "military rifles" is sooo much more "dramatic" i know..


Now of course i have already agreed that carrying rifles in an open carry situation ridiculous, but then that whole situation was a protest, albeit mis directed, but none the less a protest.

And Stahlbro- you posted some study of how open carry increases your chances of being shot. Interesting but i cant find ONE incident where such an occurrence happened. Ive been open carrying for over a year. And so far to my knowledge, there have been only TWO,, repeat TWO people even notice my small 9mm holstered on my side.

As an ex LEO i know well the open carrying issues and the fact that open carry is an immediate DETERRENT beyond concealed carrying. Current LEOs i know agree to that 100% by the way. In fact open carry is quite common in Nevada now and has been for quite some time, and this state has had ZERO occurrence of an open carry person being shot.

Im an ex Fed LEO, licensed by two different govt agencys for firearms, trained and responsible. That is why i choose to carry open style.

If someone who is looking to commit a crime sees a gun visible they are FAR more likely not to choose that person to commit said crime against. The very same reason why many concealed carriers end up having to use their guns in defense- as the perps DIDNT know they had a gun.


Bargainhunter

climber
Jul 12, 2014 - 03:12pm PT
Interesting article linked above by Stahlbro about carrying a gun increases your chances of being shot. I've often wondered if conceal carry emboldens people to "stand their ground" and escalate situations tragically, because instead of compromising in a conflict one can be inflexible and increasingly provocative knowing that one has the ultimate backup.

I disagree with Ron about open carrying is a deterrent. It could also be seen as provocative and put you at risk of being targeted. Almost all US LEO these days wear bullet proof vests, even park rangers these days, just because their uniform, authority and appearance ironically MAKE them a target. I think there is a criminal/mentally ill element out there that might want your gun and try to steal it and target you, and others that may want to push your buttons and heckle you about it and get confrontational.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 12, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
And Yet Bargain hunter, no such happenings as to your theoretical suggestions. And feel free to point out any recent cases of LEOs just being targeted out of the blue due to a uniform or carrying a gun that werent in the act of a chase ,arrest or case working.

Tell me of any LEO in the USFS, Park Service or BLM who was just shot outright for their uniform..



I havent heard of any in any recent stretch of time. The last time i heard of USFS LEOs and employees being targeted with bullets was in 1979, and was a brief scare.

I KNOW there hasnt been any open carriers in NEV targeted because they were carrying. Me included.

In fact one of THE most civil lines for a major show i was ever in was a gun show a couple of years ago that had a massive crowd in line. It was all - pardon me sir,, no pardon me..Excuse me mamm < no excuse me sir, etc etc etc.

Criminals nearly never have attempted to rob a gun store while it was open eh,, and those that have are not around anymore.


No gun shows have ever been victim of armed robbery that i know of as well. Yet another "gun rich environment".

No shoot that i have ever attended was robbed at gun point either. Yup, EVERYONE had a gun. THE LAST place on earth an armed robber would think of robbing - if even then.






TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jul 12, 2014 - 04:48pm PT
And feel free to point out any recent cases of LEOs just being targeted out of the blue due to a uniform or carrying a gun that werent in the act of a chase ,arrest or case working.

WHAT FREAKING PLANET are you living on? It just happened in your own state, national news, two of your fellow militiamen/Bundy supporters murdered two cops sitting drinking coffee then murdered a CCW gun nut.

TE
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jul 12, 2014 - 04:57pm PT
No gun shows have ever been victim of armed robbery that i know of as well. Yet another "gun rich environment".

How many people have been accidentally shot at gun shows over the past year, compared to say, knitting conventions held in the same venues?

Most gun shows around here prohibit loaded weapons inside, so does my local gun store. Do you allow open carry within your store, if so how will you be able to tell a robber from a customer before it's too late?

Oh,
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/Cops-Gunman-shoots-clerk-steals-6-firearms-in-Northeast-gun-shop-robbery.html


TE

Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 12, 2014 - 05:28pm PT
And feel free to point out any recent cases of LEOs just being targeted out of the blue due to a uniform or carrying a gun that werent in the act of a chase ,arrest or case working

Happened in Lakewood near Seattle not that long ago. Guy walked up to four officers in a coffee shop, opened fire, and killed them all. And not long after that the same thing happened to a Seattle PD officer -- sitting in his car when a guy walked up and shot him.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jul 12, 2014 - 05:39pm PT
I'll agree that the risk/reward ratio for armed robbery at a gun show is probably not so great.

But I don't think that means we should turn every public place into a gun show.


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 12, 2014 - 06:32pm PT


Doughnuts kill more cops every year (by several orders of magnitude)than guns.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 12, 2014 - 07:52pm PT
Alright then we have a few mentioned incidents, out of all the cops and shift hours in America. A TINY fragment of a percentage is what that boils down to. I imagine that is close to the amount of people being killed by lightning strikes each year. Nor is it even in the same ball park when it comes to the amount of bullets fired by gang bangers here in the US an other citizenry being killed.

So that whole "likely" angle is rather UN-likely yes?
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