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7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 9, 2014 - 09:27pm PT
Excellent post Scrubbing Bubbles.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 9, 2014 - 09:33pm PT
A lot of countries have a higher murder rate than we enjoy here in the U.S. In fact, most countries suffer a higher per-capita murder rate. Even Greenland has a higher per-capita murder rate than the U.S. But not one of those countries has a higher rate of gun ownership. None are even close. Less murders, yet more guns. THAT'S American Exceptionalism right there.

Chaz, your post is a great example of statistical silliness. The latest data I've seen (for 2012) does indeed show that 109 countries have a higher murder rate than the US. So, when you say "a lot of countries have a higher murder rate than we enjoy here in the U.S.", you're quite correct.

But there are a couple of things your comment ignores.

First, while it's true that 109 countries have a higher murder rate than the US, there are 110 countries with a lower rate.

And second, if you look at the list of countries with a higher rate, you won't find any that you really want to live in. Seriously. In terms of murder rate, the US is in the company of what our beloved Ron Anderson would call third-world shytholes. The countries in which a sane person would want to live -- you know, first-world countries with thriving economies -- all have lower rates.

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Jul 10, 2014 - 06:43am PT
Chaz, your post is a great example of statistical silliness.

That's chaz for you!

DMT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 10, 2014 - 07:03am PT
a Nation of obnoxious, anti-social ass-holes

That's a pretty accurate summation there.

And madbolter, if you think everyone's cool with you carrying a weapon around, you're living in denial, my friend.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Jul 10, 2014 - 07:04am PT
I can't understand the fear.

DMT
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 10, 2014 - 07:10am PT
Now thats funny as hell,, climbers whining about anti social as#@&%es ROFLMAO!!


Pot calling kettle,, come in kettle..
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Jul 10, 2014 - 07:38am PT
Interesting to see that the threat of mutually assured destruction is considered a higher moral than say something like mutual cooperation to ban nuclear weaponry.

It shouldn't be any wonder that folks who grew up under the shadow of the Bomb would feel on-the-hip display of weaponry is a higher "'moral.'" (those are irony quotes)

DMT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 10, 2014 - 07:44am PT
I grew up in the shadow of the bomb. We had two drills at school. One was for tornadoes, for that one we went into the hallways. The other was for the Bomb.


Despite that, I still think MAD is mad.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 10, 2014 - 07:58am PT
hmmm you mean all the nukes have been destroyed these days? Funny that- since N Korea just a day or two ago shot off more missiles into the sea.

Do you REALLY THINK a nuclear detonation was a long ago twice thing ONLY? That ONE country would pull it off but never again?

This is a wet dream for the muslim brotherhood to have a few of those..





edit: @ Ghost,, which country just lowered the age for WORKERS to 10???
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 10, 2014 - 08:53am PT
edit: @ Ghost,, which country just lowered the age for WORKERS to 10???

Georgia? That was one of Gingrich's ideas, wasn't it?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 10, 2014 - 08:56am PT
"newt" even close Gary..
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Jul 10, 2014 - 09:20am PT


 some of the gun nuts have to watch this piece of gun story


"California has all kinds of background checks, yet criminals here have no problem at all getting their hands on guns."

 Gun will have you doing nothing by the end of this thread...
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 10, 2014 - 09:43am PT
Madbolter your belief that background checks don't help keep guns out of the hands of the wrong people (at least some of them who would go on to commit violence with them) defies reason and common sense.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 10, 2014 - 09:49am PT
Background checks don't keep guns out of the hands of the wrong people in California.

California has all kinds of background checks, yet criminals here have no problem at all getting their hands on guns.

Background checks serve mainly to cover the asses of the gun shop and the gun manufacturers.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 10, 2014 - 09:59am PT
Mind boggling...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 10, 2014 - 10:23am PT
And madbolter, if you think everyone's cool with you carrying a weapon around, you're living in denial, my friend.

I'm not saying or thinking "everyone's cool" with it. I am saying that in Colorado people are not awash in a sea of irrational fear over it.

Big difference!

The US is a nation in which we practice tolerance toward each other regarding all sorts of things we "don't like" but that we recognize as legitimate values in others. We are value-tolerant, and Colorado is a good example of that attitude played out regarding open carry of handguns.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 10, 2014 - 10:25am PT
Madbolter your belief that background checks don't help keep guns out of the hands of the wrong people (at least some of them who would go on to commit violence with them) defies reason and common sense.

Well, with "at least some," you've got me.

One, perhaps? A couple? A few?

Is it statistically significant? That is the real question. And given the grand experiments of states like California, and places like Chicago and DC, it is FAR from "defying reason and common sense" to question the statistically-demonstrated efficacy of such laws!
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 10, 2014 - 10:48am PT
I'm sorry, but I don't want to create a society where some people feel more empowered by carrying a fire arm with them everywhere they go. This changes the whole dynamic when armed and unarmed people interact. It almost forces everyone to carry a gun to have parity. That just sucks.

I am sure the NRA would love to sell just about everyone a gun and ammunition for the rest of their lives (however short), but this starts a cascade of events that will definitely lead to more gun related deaths than saved lives. A lot more. The more people see carrying guns as one of the answers to our societal issues, the worse things will get.

I have no problem with responsible gun ownership, but the notion that everyone should start going around healed like the wild west in order to avoid a government takeover, personal harm, stop gun related crime or foil mass gun murders is a self-fulfilling prophecy and just plain looney. And now you have some posters here gloating over turning other peoples heads to mist with their firepower. I hope it is just a classless troll, otherwise it is pretty sick.

End of Rant

You may now call me commie, hippie, pacifist, liberal pussy or whatever else floats your boat.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 10, 2014 - 11:13am PT
Of course, then you'll go on to argue: "Perhaps it is difficult to demonstrate the effect statistically, but a BIG part of the problem is interstate gun flow, which is why we need UNIVERSAL background checks, and only the feds can really administrate such a thing."

And I'll respond, "Ahh, so you DO want to see another 'war on...' fully fired up, with all of the useless expense that we've seen along with the feds administrating border control, prohibition, drugs...."

And you'll respond with something like, "Well, if it can reduce the violence even a little, isn't that a good thing? Isn't that OBVIOUSLY a good thing?"

And I'll respond with: "As I said above, it's all about (no pun intended) 'bang for the buck.' As a nation we already DO NOT throw our money and resources at ALL SORTS of other causes that would have FAR more of a needless-death-reduction effect than even 100%-effective gun-control."

And we're like dogs chasing our tails in this argument. SOMEHOW, the relatively small amount of gun violence in a nation of almost a-third-of-a-billion people gets some all up in a froth. It doesn't me.

Each particular tragedy IS a tragedy, and I'm not minimizing that in the slightest, except to say that each incident is not a NATIONAL tragedy. If you want to look for NATIONAL tragedies, you could start with our almost-entirely-preventable rate of death by heart disease. Now THAT truly is a "national epidemic." But, no, that's not sexy enough, and the media outlets don't have a politically-laden hobby-horse to ride on that subject.

How about this for your "universal gun control?"

BITD in San Berdo, I could trivially (and I mean TRIVIALLY) lay my hands on just about any sort of weaponry you care to shake a stick at. Grenade launcher? NP. Full-auto anything? NP. Tear gas? NP. (I actually had several canisters myself). All military items, such as claymores? NP.

And this stuff was not expensive!

Now, please explain to me how such utterly LOCKED DOWN weaponry was so TRIVIALLY available to a guy like me.

Can you really float the idea that even "universal background checks" are going to be CLOSE to as efficacious as the laws that have always existed to keep such military-grade weaponry away from a guy like me?

These laws DON'T WORK! Period! And your idea that there is going to be even a statistically significant "reduction" in access is what "defies reason and common sense."

If you REALLY want to "solve" the problem, address it at its source! The problem is not guns (as hundreds of millions of them in this country clearly demonstrate!). The problem is criminals! Solve the crime problem, and you solve the "gun problem."

HOW?

Very simple: Make these countless victimless "crimes" not crimes anymore.

Prostitution, drugs, gambling, etc. What's the problem with these? Ohhh... we don't want to live in a society filled with degenerates? Is that it?

We ALREADY DO! The "war on..." ALL of these things is a dismal, expensive, jail-filling failure!

I used to know a professor at Cal. State San Bernardino that was a heroin addict. He was a fully-functional and very productive member of society. To all outward appearances he was completely "normal." But he had to shoot up twice a day. He actually liked it, despite the fact that he was, even by admission, addicted. But he got genuine pleasure from it. HIS values, not mine. But in a free society, not hurting anybody, he has the RIGHT to his values.

We used to talk about how stupid and utterly ineffectual the drug laws are. Did his heroin cost any more because it was "black market?" Probably not, compared to, say, LEGAL cigarettes. ALL these laws accomplished in his case was to ensure that his money helped fund some drug cartel somewhere.

And do you really think that by making guns "more expensive" you will even SLOW the flow? Think again! These gangs, criminals, and cartels are NOT hurting for money!

Want to MAKE them hurt for money???

Legalize the vices that fund them.

Nobody wants to get SERIOUS about addressing the "gun problem," which really is the CRIME problem, BY addressing the FACT that most of these "crimes" that fill our jails (in revolving door fashion) are NOT actually things that should be crimes in a free society!

Our society is wildly schizophrenic, as we froth about this or that petty "issue" and refuse to get serious about the BIG issues that underlie the relatively petty symptoms. We make all sorts of MORAL value judgments, and we are entirely inconsistent in our thinking about them!

Gays are good. Drugs are bad.

Cigarettes are good. Prostitution is bad.

Alcohol is good. Guns are bad.

On and on and on.

This society was NEVER supposed to be "moral" by this or that group's particular set of values! It was supposed to be FREE, and that means simply not stomping on the toes of those around you as you seek YOUR set of preferred values.

You think prostitution is evil? Then don't go to one.

You think gays are evil? Then don't be gay (lol).

You think gay marriage is evil? Then don't go to the wedding.

You think drugs are evil? Then don't use them, and teach your kids to not use them.

On and on.

If this nation would get over its endless penchant for attempting to LEGISLATE MORALITY, and instead do what this nation was intended to do, which is nothing more than design laws strictly to protect against rights violations, then our jails would almost empty, and we would have vast sums of money and resources to devote to better things!

Such as education, for example.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 10, 2014 - 11:29am PT
"BITD in San Berdo, I could trivially (and I mean TRIVIALLY) lay my hands on just about any sort of weaponry you care to shake a stick at."


The County Sheriff himself was convicted of illegal gun trafficking.

Not the sheriff back in the Mormon period, but the last sheriff.

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