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madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 08:55am PT
What are Christians doing with guns anyway? My guess is they don't really believe in God's good grace and protection.

What are Christians doing with a job anyway? My guess is they don't really believe in God's good grace and providence.

Ridiculous!
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 7, 2014 - 08:58am PT
I posted this in the border war thread, but it probably should be here. It's like the wild west in the mid west.


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-60-shot-11-killed-in-chicago-4th-of-july-weekend-shootings/#postComments
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 7, 2014 - 08:58am PT
"What are Christians doing with a job"?

God ran out of manna.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 09:24am PT
Yet, even with the best police and the best policing strategy in the world, without better state and federal laws to keep guns off the streets and out of the hands of dangerous criminals, we'll continue to face an uphill battle.

This was my favorite line from the article. It's drips with irony!

Chicago has about the strictest gun control laws in the country. They have about the highest rate of illegal gun possession and use among criminals. They also have about the highest murder rate in the country, not to mention other violent crime.

And exactly WHAT proposed federal gun-control laws would "keep guns off the streets and out of the hands of dangerous criminals?" WHICH proposed federal laws would DO this that Illinois/Chicago does not already have in place (to no avail)?

Chicago is THE classic example of that old saw: Make guns illegal, and only criminals will have guns.

I'll tell you what: Take away all of Chicago's gun laws and restrictions, arm the citizens to the teeth, and you'll have an immediate rash of additional shootings. For awhile it will be like the wild, wild west. And then that will peak and subside, and the criminals will be driven back underground. The incidence of shootings will dramatically decrease, as will violent crime in general. Chicago will become safer, and the job of the cops will become easier.

Unless you want a police state, the cops in principle cannot protect the "flock." The flock will continually be fleeced until it grows some horns and starts actively fighting back. Chicago has been a grand and utterly failed experiment in gun control.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 09:36am PT
Here's my take on gun control, particularly the idea that people should not be allowed to carry guns in public....

Laws that forbid the carrying of arms accomplish only this:

* They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.

* They make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants.

* They serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides.

Bottom line is that an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one.

**

Wait, to be honest, that's not MY take on gun control. That's the take of Cesare Beccaria's Essay on Crimes and Punishments, quote by Thomas Jefferson's book: The Commonplace Book.

Here's the whole passage:

"The laws of this nature are those which forbid to wear arms, disarming those only who are not disposed to commit the crime which the laws mean to prevent. Can it be supposed, that those who have the courage to violate the most sacred laws of humanity, and the most important of the code, will respect the less considerable and arbitrary injunctions, the violation of which is so easy, and of so little comparative importance? Does not the execution of this law deprive the subject of that personal liberty, so dear to mankind and to the wise legislator? and does it not subject the innocent to all the disagreeable circumstances that should only fall on the guilty? It certainly makes the situation of the assaulted worse, and of the assailants better, and rather encourages than prevents murder, as it requires less courage to attack unarmed than armed persons."
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 09:37am PT
God ran out of manna.

Now I see that you are not somebody that can be engaged with seriously.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 7, 2014 - 09:55am PT
We had a near record setting Saturday in gun sales. The main debates were 9mm vs .40, vs .45, and is Windham better than bushmaster or Tika, better than Howa.. Lots to consider.

The Military is now going to go seek a new caliber to replace the 9mm standard issues. They are a little behind that ball as the FBI long ago decided that one and opted for the .40 cal. And in actuality, the .45- a once standard issue gun that hasnt changed since its invention of the 1911 frame and function should probably be the wisest choice. Ammo for those are HEAVY but then you wont need as much.


Ladies need a slightly smaller frame and a softer recoil for a lot of them, so the 9mm is by far the good choice. Although some of the newer .45s have the recoil down to a near 9mm level. ( HK's for example.) Or even Springfield .45s.. But the fit may not be the best and one needs to be comfortable in the fit for precision shooting.


sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 7, 2014 - 09:57am PT
I had a buddy of mine who did some roofing in Chicago among various other cities. They were in the south side, in a rough area, doing a big tear off, replacement, etc. and had decided to work through the night to get on the road as soon as possible. Around dark, two cop cars pulled up to their work site and asked them what the hell they were doing. Working through the night, was the reply. The officers laughed heartily at this and asked them if they had guns. The answer was no, at which point the cops informed them that if they were smart, they would leave now, because that was what they were doing themselves. They had just happened to see his roofing crew on their out of the housing project.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:02am PT
Regarding quoting odds of being shot by my own gun, please offer us, the American public, with the alternative approach to self-defense.

Your question implies that making it harder for criminals to get guns would somehow eliminate your right to bear arms in self defense. Gun control legislation is not mutually exclusive with the right to bear arms, together they are mutually beneficial to "promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty".

I have carried a gun for self defense when I judged that the risks outweighed the benefits, you are entitled to do the same. Perhaps you are forced to live or work in a high crime neighborhood, and have no other employment or residential options, if so, owning or carrying a gun may genuinely improve your safety. For the majority of the population, this is not the case.

Carrying a gun doesn't preclude you from actively supporting legislation that would reduce the odds of ever needing it. Supporting such legislation would undoubtedly save lives, but your buying and carrying a gun is extremely unlikely to.

TE








Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:22am PT
That'd be fine, except nobody's proposing making it harder for criminals to get guns. All the gun control efforts I'm aware of serve only to make it harder for the law abiding to get guns.

It's already illegal for criminals to possess firearms. And if some law-abiding citizen decides to commit his first-ever crime this afternoon, there's an extra added penalty for using a firearm in commission of that crime.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:28am PT
Chaz,, i think the MAIN PROBLEM is the very thing you mention.. That ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL and that is now celebrated by a large percentage of left leaning voters here. Illegal entry into this country for example. Now of course that means the illegal entry of more and more criminal gang members like those that have settled into the hoods of Chicago.

Of COURSE no one planning on ILLEGAL activities will ever be affected by a MT Everest pile worth of laws.

Its like a door lock on your house or car, it only keeps honest people honest. The rest dont give a rip.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:35am PT
Supporting such legislation would undoubtedly save lives, but your buying and carrying a gun is extremely unlikely to.

Chicago is the grand experiment that demonstrates your perspective here is incorrect.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:40am PT
Ladies need a slightly smaller frame and a softer recoil for a lot of them, so the 9mm is by far the good choice.

I totally agree. My wife can handle our .40, but she's longer getting back on target than is ideal. Even a 9mm is a very solid weapon, and it's certainly better for her.

I'm looking into the Walther because it is almost functionally identical to the P30 (just lacks a slide release, and the safety up/down is reversed). Any thoughts on that? Best concealed gun for my wife?

In my pre-purchase research spanning months, it appears that there is very little difference between the effectiveness of the 9mm vs .40 vs .45. Ammo matters, and shot placement trumps all. I do love the feel of the P30, though. Best gun I've ever shot, by far! Expensive, though.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:43am PT
There is NO debate that the new Desert Eagle .45s in both standard and compact 1911 designs are the NEW kid on the block as far as a quality hand gun go. The slide and trigger pull equal to a Kimber, with a thicker barrel for multiple round expenditures with better accuracy. Made in Isreal with a price tag nearly half of what a compatible Kimber will run. They use identical components of the trigger group.


edit: As for the wife,, the new Ruger SRC is a VERY GOOD choice in 9mm. The SR is the not so compact and the SRC is a compact design, with added safety, a loaded indicator on the tip rail and a very easy price. It seems far easier to control than say a Shield of other smaller compacts. The super compacts are just hard to control for precision imo. Be it a Ruger, Springfield or others,, they have all stepped up the game of quality. But there are still some oddities such as the Kimber solo, a very compact design but wont feed standard 115 grain ammo so target practice can be expensive.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:44am PT
Perhaps you are forced to live or work in a high crime neighborhood, and have no other employment or residential options, if so, owning or carrying a gun may genuinely improve your safety.

As the Northglenn mugging a few weeks ago demonstrates (and what motivated me to finally take the plunge), you CANNOT know what is a "high crime area." What seems like a decent and safe area simply is not.

If you grant, as you appear to, that packing a gun can be a good thing in a "high crime area," then its goodness is sweeping, as you simply don't know what is "high crime" and what is just you getting mugged or accosted.

If right next door to our office can be a broad-daylight mugging scene, then it can happen anywhere (and actually does).
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:46am PT
MB, have you considered one of the new Glocks for the wife? From what I've read the new
double spring lessens recoil noticeably.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:48am PT
We tried out that Desert Eagle, and it does scream quality. But it is a heavy gun, even the 1911 version. I was hoping for one gun that would be good for both of us. But I'm seeing that even the .40 is a bit much for my wife. She's just too small-built to recover from the recoil and get back on target quickly. She handles it just fine, but the retargetting delay is unacceptable. So, a .45 would be the same issue.

Gotta go .380 or 9mm for her. Even the .380 has acceptable penetration, and within typical self-defense range it is accurate enough that shot placement is a go.

I hear, though, that all .380s jam quite a bit. The Walther is supposedly better on this score, but "better" isn't good if it's an actual problem!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:50am PT
Reilly,, im not a glock fan.. The grips OFTEN dont fit a females hand. They are wide buggars..;-)

and Mad Bolter, if you desire a .380, check out the Colt Mustang- it is the best .380 i know of, spendy, but its pure quality and will feed anything.;-) Looks like a mini 1911 so its stylish too! ;-) Has an exposed hammer also..
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:51am PT
Thanks, Reilly. We actually tried various Glocks, and she hates the way they all feel in her hand.

I am also a big believer in an exposed hammer and external safety. That debate could rage endlessly of course, but I'm not an internal striker fan at all.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 7, 2014 - 11:00am PT
Credit: Ron Anderson

Ruger SRC, 9mm



Credit: Ron Anderson

Colt Mustang, .380




My picks of the week for Women..;-)



We have also sold a pile of LCR 9mm's by Ruger, an ultra compact, but they are very light and pack a sting when shooting.
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