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TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Feb 6, 2015 - 01:44pm PT
Madbolter, try apply those same critical assessment skills to the BS pro-gun articles you posted here a while ago. Produce the best article you can find supporting the position that more gun ownership means less death and injury by guns.

TE

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 6, 2015 - 01:55pm PT
"Produce the best article you can find supporting the position that more gun ownership means less death and injury by guns."



EVERY law enforcement agency in America endorses firearms for personal defense.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Feb 6, 2015 - 01:56pm PT
Sorry, TE, I won't play your game. The point you should be taking from this whole mess is that ALL statistics are BS (as Mark Twain rightly noted). ALL of them mean nothing apart from interpretation, and ALL of the interpretations written up by both pro-gun AND anti-gun articles depend upon interpretations that conflate (thin) correlations with causes.

Gun ownership in this country is NOT about statistics. If you could prove (which you can't) that doubling gun ownership doubled gun homicides, you would still have merely correlation, and, more importantly, you would not address the fact that gun ownership (and carrying) is a constitutionally-protected right in this country.

People like you seem bound and determined to undo the 2nd amendment (good luck with that), but the public largely isn't buying the correlations-as-causes arguments.

And even if you somehow managed to get the 2nd amendment changed (or so radically and "progressively" interpreted by the courts) that the average citizen really had no more legal right to keep and BEAR arms, all you would accomplish is to turn more than half of this nation into "criminals." The average person KNOWS that they have the right of self-defense, which just is the right to the MEANS necessary to defend him/herself against likely threats. You are not going to convince the average, otherwise law-abiding citizen, that they no longer have the right of self-defense nor the right to the MEANS by which to uphold it.

Remember prohibition.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 6, 2015 - 02:15pm PT
I'm jonesing for the Sig 320. What the heck is that "tabbed trigger safety" thingy?
It looks like it violates all tenets of the KISS philosophy.

Never mind, I see that it isn't legal in Cali. WTF? It's got every safety
gizmo known to man!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Feb 6, 2015 - 02:27pm PT
The point you should be taking from this whole mess is that ALL statistics are BS

Religious philosophy, I take it?

DMT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Feb 6, 2015 - 02:54pm PT
Religious philosophy, I take it?

LOL... Twain was an avowed atheist.

"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Feb 6, 2015 - 02:56pm PT
Its just such an ignorant thing to write, I'd guess you have no math training at all.

Cheers!
DMT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Feb 6, 2015 - 03:01pm PT
Yeah, Twain was a complete ignoramus.

Or perhaps you are missing the point, which is that the statistics themselves are not the problem (the data is what it is). The devil is in interpreting the data, and there people (scientists and statisticians included) necessarily bring their biases to bear.

Show me an article you like, based upon "favorable" statistics, and I'll rip it to shreds. You (and TE) can do the same to anything I trot out. It's a GAME, and it is pretty close to utterly irrelevant to the principles underlying this issue.

Legislate me into being a "criminal," and, sure enough, I'll be a "criminal." Remember prohibition.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Feb 6, 2015 - 03:05pm PT
Yeah, Twain was a complete ignoramus.
Yep, when it came to math and statistics, a complete moron. He couldn't even count his own money.

Or perhaps you are missing the point, which is that the statistics themselves are not the problem (the data is what it is).

You said ALL statistics. ALL.

Or perhaps you are missing the point?

DMT
WBraun

climber
Feb 6, 2015 - 03:08pm PT
Legislate me into being a "criminal," and, sure enough, I'll be a "criminal."


That's the root of it.

All else is the distraction and illusion ....
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Feb 6, 2015 - 03:12pm PT
Brilliant reasoning, simply stunning.

If they pass a law against my behavior, I will be breaking the law!



DMT
WBraun

climber
Feb 6, 2015 - 03:15pm PT
No law needed for you.

You're already a criminal.

That's why you were born in the material world ......
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Feb 6, 2015 - 03:16pm PT
Right you are, buddy. :)

DMT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Feb 6, 2015 - 03:20pm PT
You said ALL statistics. ALL.

Or perhaps you are missing the point?

Dingleberry, the day I posted against your vaunted hero, Jim Beyer, you have had nothing but antipathy for me. You stated then that this was the turning point for you in your thinking about me. And since then, there is no thread we both participate on in which you don't make that antipathy clear. It doesn't matter what I say or how I say it, you'll come up with a way to dig at it.

My point in this case is crystal clear, and your intentional refusal to grant it just further makes the point of the above paragraph. I find it frustrating to honestly attempt to engage the ISSUES with somebody who so obviously only finds pleasure in forum drive-by shootings aimed more or less in the direction (your aim is pretty bad) of somebody he doesn't like.

It's been years of this, and finally you have convinced me that the feeling of antipathy should be mutual. Unlike you, however, I'll now respond by just ignoring your further "contributions" as the irrelevancies that they are.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Feb 6, 2015 - 03:22pm PT
Dingleberry, the day I posted against your vaunted hero, Jim Beyer,

Huh?

Jim Beyer? The dude in the rubber suit?

You're confused, dude.

DMT
WBraun

climber
Feb 6, 2015 - 03:29pm PT
Yes

The whole idea is to keep the sheep in control.

Sheepherders are always afraid of wolves.

Unfortunately we ARE NOT SHEEP ......

Only anonymous coward, hides in his broom closet, cranknutcase, is sheep.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Feb 6, 2015 - 03:35pm PT
Nope, not confused. I can look it up, if it was worth the time, which it's not. I called Intifada for what it was, and you hopped on and started bagging on me about how disingenuous of me it was to discredit a climb by such a great climber, particularly when I had experienced being discredited myself. I responded that I was discredited on the basis of lies by people who had not climbed the route, while I had climbed and documented Intifada. And your response was that you had previously felt like I had gotten a raw deal in the climbing community, but that after my "attacks" on Jim Beyer, your opinion of me had completely changed.

Like your inability to differentiate among principles in discussions like this very thread, your inability to differentiate between legitimate route criticism and flat-out defamation is the real root of the problem in your long-term dislike of me, at least as you stated it.

Regardless of the reasons you NOW feel that you have, I'm done trying to engage with you in honest fashion, because you are not intellectually honest.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Feb 6, 2015 - 03:42pm PT
I bagged on you for your obsessive compulsive nature, lol. You're a eyes-like-burning-coals fanatic, in case you didn't notice.

Beyer? Could NOT! care less.

DMT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Feb 6, 2015 - 03:54pm PT
Back on topic, the recent dialectic on this thread is:

Gary relentlessly posts every new tidbit of gun idiocy he can find in the news.

I respond with a well-known study and call for a more balanced perspective, noting that the idiots are in the tiny, tiny minority of gun owners.

Brandon responds that the statistics in the well-known study are wrong (no duh), but posts an article that is itself witheringly biased and that flagrantly misrepresents the statistics and studies it trots out to rip the well-known study.

I point out that statistics (clearly meaning the INTERPRETATION) of them is always "incorrect" (per Brandon), as interpretations are always bias-laden, even among "careful" practitioners. Put interpretation in a loaded/heated context like gun-control, and Twain's comment is spot on!

I summarize that the principles at issue in this discussion are not touched by, nor will their defenders fall to, heavily-interpreted statistics. And I urge wannabe legislators to remember prohibition, where an otherwise law-abiding class of people were suddenly MADE into criminals, and that for violating NO rights of others.

To expound upon prohibition, this overnight class of "criminals" were criminalized using the exact same tactics now employed by gun-control wannabes: Trot out statistics regarding the EFFECTS of the substance it was proposed to make illegal, thereby failing to properly penalize the ABUSERS of the substance and instead going after the mere POSSESSORS (and makers) of the substance. Overnight, people who were doing nothing wrong were suddenly criminals. And overnight the stage was set for gangland America as we now know it. And the legislators, never learning anything from history, make the same mistakes regarding drugs. And the wannabes, learning nothing from history, now want to make the same mistakes regarding guns.

Remember prohibition, and give up on these endless and fruitless "wars on ___" that only create "criminals" and black markets.

I've said before, and I'll repeat: You want reasonable legislation designed to better keep guns out of the hands of already-convicted, VIOLENT felons, and you'll have no fight from me (although I continue to believe that this is a state's rights issue that the feds have no actual constitutional right to engage in). Even on the subject of letting the feds handle things like background checks (that are not stored indefinitely, but that are point-in-time "yay or nay" decisions), you'll get no fight from me.

But pointing out that sometimes idiots do idiotic things with their guns is going nowhere. Idiots do idiotic things with all sorts of things, and that has zero bearing on gun rights, anymore than idiots driving idiotically and killing people with their cars has any bearing on the right to transportation.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Feb 6, 2015 - 04:02pm PT
You're a eyes-like-burning-coals fanatic

Pot calling kettle....

From http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2574956/Super-Score-80-million-hacked-zero-unhacked

We need a personal information bill of rights. It should be a civil rights violation to allow 80-million identities to be stolen. The C-level executives should do jail time.

LOL

Want me to continue?

When you are called on it in the next post, you respond:

Great point and thanks for blunting my hyperbole.

But then you just can't help yourself....

Hit the investors right in the face with a HUGE fine. Make it in the millions, insure (haha) Antham makes no profit in 2015. PUNISH THEM SEVERELY.

ALL CAPS???

Pot calling kettle....

Edit: More? How about we "take this outside" and devote a worthless thread to just you and I duking it out like schoolboys?

Or, perhaps you could have a touch of charity in your interpretations. Just a thought....
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