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Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Apr 16, 2013 - 08:50am PT
Stop being an idiot


If there are idiots in this caterwaul, look to those who place confidence
in the pleas of convicts and psychopaths, sir.

...those who abandon personal accountability with the foil that anti-depressants made THEM do it, while the tens of millions of law abiding folk taking such medication, feel no such impulse.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 16, 2013 - 11:54am PT
Responsible firearm ownership requires a sound mind. I don't think it's unreasonable for those on psychotropic drugs to be denied legal access to firearms.

Potential for violence? Are illegal aliens any more violent than the general population? How about marijuana addicts? Are they more prone to violence than everybody else?

How about someone dishonoralby discharged from the military? Is that a reliable indicator of future violent actions? You can earn yourself a dishonorable discharge for refusing to participate in violence.

If you believe those who tell you the prisons are all so full of non-violent drug offenders that we don't have space there for the really bad eggs, then felons aren't necessarily all violent, either.

All those folks - illegal aliens, marijuana users, the dishonorably discharged, and felons of course - are all on the list of "prohibitted persons" as far as legal firearm ownership is concerned.

Those on psychotropic drugs need to be included on that list.

As long as you're clammoring for the government to "do something", let's do something about the perscription drug / mental health industrial complex.

The clerk at the Gun Shop, or the guy with a table of rifles at the Gun Show, should have the same access to our mental health records as they do our criminal histories.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
look to those who place confidence in the pleas of convicts and psychopaths, sir.

And who would that be mam?

those who abandon personal accountability with the foil that anti-depressants made THEM do it

What a complete load of sh#t. If you break the law, you should be held accountable, no matter what drugs you are on. Only a fool would argue that taking drugs removes any accountability... and only a fool would argue that people on mind altering drugs should have guns.

while the tens of millions of law abiding folk taking such medication, feel no such impulse.

130 million law abiding folk take alcohol in the US, about 40% of the population. Only ~600,000 violent crimes a year are committed under the influence of alcohol. Over 129 million law abiding citizens a year don't commit violent crimes under the influence of alcohol... yet it is still illegal to be under the influence of alcohol and be in possession of a firearm.

People on drugs designed to fuk with your mind should not have guns.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Apr 16, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
I don't think it's unreasonable for those on psychotropic drugs to be denied legal access to firearms.



Perhaps a clear definition of psychotropic will contribute to clarity in the discussion.

A psychotropic drug is any substance that crosses the blood–brain barrier and affects brain chemistry. Caffeine, aspirin, various analgesics are included in the category. Pharmeceutical companies test psychotropic medications for years on a multitude of volunteers to guage how they affect alertness, judgement etc.

Those substances that affect judgement and alertness in a negative manner...are deemed inappropriate to consume while driving, operating machinery etc.

The backwater line of reasoning that Zoloft, Paxil, Prozac etc. cause violent tendencies comes primarily from criminals and their defense alliance...and the resulting backwash of hearsay.

Deprive guns to users of psychotropic material?

Caffeine alone will disqualify 90% of the population from owning guns...Fine with me, guys, but it won't fly with the public...
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 16, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
Correct me if I'm wrong, but coffee and aspirin don't come with several pages warning of potential side effects, side effects which include violent behavior and suicidal thoughts.

As long as we're in the mood to "do something" - no matter how inneffectual, such as limiting magazine capacity and registering legal guns - we may as well address the mentally ill, who seem to be the ones responsible for the problem at hand.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Apr 16, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
Splintering our pike on vague windmills of psychotropic culpability simply won't end the express and calculated slaughter of innocents.

The public's disgust with assault weapons is at a historical maximum. Is now the time to push for abolishing them entirely (in the civilian population) ? Or should we wait for more grotesque ambush?

One doesn't have to be a zealot for repealing the Second Amendment to see these weapons have little utility in legitimate civilian life. Why not destruct the corporeal in mass murder rather than focus on intangibles destined to prove weak...or thwarted entirely?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
The backwater line of reasoning that Zoloft, Paxil, Prozac etc. cause violent tendencies comes primarily from criminals and their defense alliance...and the resulting backwash of hearsay.

More bullshit from a pretentious girl who spends way too much time with her thesaurus and not enough time thinking.

1) Much of it comes from families who have lost loved ones to suicide and/or experienced the irrational violent behavior associated with SSRIs.

2) In order to be prescribed SSRIs you have to be evaluated by a medical professional and diagnosed with a mental disorder. You are arguing that people with MENTAL DISORDERS who are on inadequately understood/tested mind altering drugs should be allowed easy access to guns. I can only conclude you have a mental disorder or are on drugs.

Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of friends and relatives who have been diagnosed with mental disorders and/or are on SSRIs. I love them with all my heart and would do anything for them... except ensure they have easy access to killing machines, especially while trying out new meds with the FDA warning...

Antidepressants increased the risk compared to placebo of suicidal thinking and behavior (suicidality) in children, adolescents, and young adults in short-term studies of major depressive disorder (MDD) and other psychiatric disorders.

and more

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/DrugSafety/InformationbyDrugClass/UCM173233.pdf

In the FDA review, no completed suicides occurred among nearly 2,200 children treated with SSRI medications. However, about 4 percent of those taking SSRI medications experienced suicidal thinking or behavior, including actual suicide attempts—twice the rate of those taking placebo, or sugar pills.

FYI, ~600,000 violent crimes a year are reported to involve alcohol. An estimated 130 million people drink alcohol in this country. For comparison, less than 0.46 percent of those "taking alcohol" commit violent crimes... mind the decimal. Even if all suicides involved alcohol consumption (which is silly), the number is ~0.03%. For attempted suicides, it is 0.3%... again, mind the decimal.

SSRI medications usually have few side effects in children and adolescents, but for unknown reasons, they may trigger agitation and abnormal behavior in certain individuals.

Well, as long as they have easy access to guns while we try to find the reason... benign and well established indeed!



edit:
If I remember correctly, Norton is a (very reasonable and responsible) gun owner with a mental disorder who takes SSRIs (or other Rx). Would you (Norton) have been opposed to surrendering your guns temporarily during your initial treatment and evaluation with mind altering meds, at least until you and your Dr were convinced you were not adversely affected by them? Would you be opposed to having them taken away in the unlikely event you were determined unstable by a Dr or 3 or 5? Would you be opposed to the same for your neighbors?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 16, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
Jennie writes:

"The public's disgust with assault weapons is at a historical maximum. Is now the time to push for abolishing them entirely (in the civilian population) ? "


I don't know about that. You can believe what people say, or if you want the truth you can watch what people do.

Gun shops are having a hard time keeping any product in stock, and people are waiting in line for hours to enter gun shows. Demand for guns has never been higher, at least not in my lifetime.

Twenty years ago, Congress passed an "assault" weapons ban - something that won't be done this time around - so a good case can be made the level of "disgust" you mention was actually higher in the 90's than it is today.

But demand for guns has never been greater.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Apr 16, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
More ...from a pretentious girl who spends way too much time with her thesaurus and not enough time thinking.


Yes, maybe I can get Zoloft for my pretentiousness.

And if they treat obnoxiousness with it...you could certainly qualify, sir!

The fact is there are tens of millions of people on these anti-depressants...most without destructive mental disorders. Millions are given prescriptions to treat sleeping disorders, eating disorders, anxiety over losing family members etc.

Crusading against gun violence is great, Wes. But I'm going to opt for methods more likely to bring a desired effect. Deprive fifteen...twenty percent of the population Second Amendment rights?

I won't be pretentious and say "Go for it!" (...but I will be shaking my head)
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
The fact is there are tens of millions of people on these anti-depressants...

No, the fact is the drugs fuk with your head.

The percentage of people who commit violent crimes or attempt suicide while "taking alcohol" is more than an order of magnitude LESS than the percentage of people who attempt suicide while "taking SSRIs."

Possessing guns while under the influence of alcohol is an acceptable law that has been in place for quite some time... because people aren't fuking idiots and realize it just makes sense.

How could anyone in their right mind argue for not restricting gun access for those taking drugs that result in a much higher rate of suicide attempts?

Obviously the link between violent crime and SSRIs hasn't been made... when you commit a violent crime, you are not tested for SSRIs... yet.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 16, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
Deprive fifteen...twenty percent of the population Second Amendment rights?


Jennie, curious as to how strongly you feel about the Second Amendment, would you mind addressing your reply solely as to what was "meant" over two hundred years ago when the finest weapons were single shot black powder muskets that took a good amount of time to reload?

for example, do you seriously feel that the guys that wrote that single sentence would feel that the armed citizens of today ought to have unlimited magazine size military style assault weapons?

would universal background checks and say limiting clips to 10 rounds "deprive" citizens?

just curious, not disagreeing with you on anything specific
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 16, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
Norton,, smoke poles were also being used by the govt back then. As technologies changed so did guns and ownership. that is a silly argument.

And 10 rounds you say? How many 30 round clips are out there now? How many fifteen to seventeen round clips for handguns?? MILLIONS....

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
What is silly is comparing the size of your guns to those of our government.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 16, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
The govt classifies AR 15s as PERSONAL protection. They defined that ,,not me..
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Apr 16, 2013 - 03:41pm PT

for example, do you seriously feel that the guys that wrote that single sentence would feel that the armed citizens of today ought to have unlimited magazine size military style assault weapons?

would universal background checks and say limiting clips to 10 rounds "deprive" citizens?



Norton, I believe military assault weapons in the possesion of U.S. civilians is an exaggerated...or even gratuitous interpretation of the Second Amendment.

I'm hoping we can find a balance between adequate self defense and undue capacity to wreak senseless havoc.

Ten rounds seems like lots to me. It was my understanding that background checks are presently required for buying guns.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 16, 2013 - 03:47pm PT
Jennie in its order for thousands of weapons, the US GOVT calls AR15s personal protection arms. NOT ASSUALT WEAPONS , and NOT MILITARY style weapons. Just personal protection.. By that definition, AR 15s should be available to me.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Apr 16, 2013 - 03:47pm PT
The clerk at the Gun Shop, or the guy with a table of rifles at the Gun Show, should have the same access to our mental health records as they do our criminal histories.

no. they dont need access. they simply need a yes or a no (ro sell their wares) from soemone more responsible. good luck with finding who that is.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Apr 16, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
Any weapon a solder carries is called a personal weapon as opposed to a crewed weapon. What's yer point again?

Where do ya think we send these soldier to? Hawaiian vacations? Of course these weapons are for their personal protection.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 16, 2013 - 03:50pm PT
i guess my point would be,, the SENATE agreed with me.....
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Apr 16, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
About what?
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