The Gun debate sandbox

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 4481 - 4500 of total 5850 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Apr 16, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
What specific SSRI medications are we discussing that tangibly display a positive association toward suicidality?

Prozac?

Trials by the FDA convey a 30% reduced rate of suicidal ideation for adults taking Prozac. And the MHRA in the UK claims 50% less suicidal ideation...

Prozac use in children increased the odds of suicide ideation by 50% (but declared not statistically significant due to the low number of cases).

But children should not have access to guns, regardless of how statistically significant the studies may or may not be...

With federal agencies purporting such statistics...how will you convince lawmakers and judges to go along with taking guns from the many millions on psychotropic drugs?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
Antidepressants increased the risk compared to placebo of suicidal thinking and behavior (suicidality) in children, adolescents, and young adults in short-term studies of major depressive disorder (MDD) and other psychiatric disorders.

That is the FDA black box warning REQUIRED ON ALL antidepressants. There is more... much more. Pull out your Prozac and take a look for yourself.

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/DrugSafety/InformationbyDrugClass/UCM173233.pdf

This is from the NIH

In the FDA review, no completed suicides occurred among nearly 2,200 children treated with SSRI medications. However, about 4 percent of those taking SSRI medications experienced suicidal thinking or behavior, including actual suicide attempts—twice the rate of those taking placebo, or sugar pills.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/child-and-adolescent-mental-health/antidepressant-medications-for-children-and-adolescents-information-for-parents-and-caregivers.shtml

Let's start with those.



My angle is pretty clear: I don't want people with mental disorders who are on drugs to be able to walk into a gun shop and buy a gun without some reassurance they aren't going to hurt themselves or others. Medical evaluations, longer waiting periods, more intensive background check, precautions while trying new medication... whatever.

What's your angle? Why do you want people with mental disorders who are on drugs to have easy access to guns?
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Apr 16, 2013 - 07:17pm PT
What's your angle? Why do you want people with mental disorders who are on drugs to have easy access to guns?

Outlandish question, Wes...

I've never expressed wanting people with bona fide mental disorders having access to guns.

Once again, doctors give anti-depressants almost like candy. Sleeping disorders, eating disorders...a Rexburg physician even wrote me a Clonazepam prescription for being morose over an ankle sprain.

(I didn't give it to the pharmacist)


No clearheaded people want felons or the mentally ill possessing firearms. But branding every individual taking psychotropic drugs as mentally disordered makes as much sense as profiling all Black and Hispanic people as criminals.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2013 - 07:57pm PT
I've never expressed wanting people with bona fide mental disorders having access to guns.

Those drugs are most often prescribed to people who have been diagnosed with a mental disorder... no? By the same professionals you trust to declare them as perfectly safe. So they know enough to know that the drugs are perfectly safe... but they don't know how to diagnose a mental disorder?

Once again, doctors give anti-depressants almost like candy.

Oh, well then... I'm sure they are fine. You trust Dr's who give people mind altering drugs like candy to tell you the drugs are perfectly safe (despite serious FDA warnings), but you don't trust their diagnosis of a mental disorder? Are you mental?

But branding every individual taking psychotropic drugs as mentally disordered

I don't brand everyone who drinks alcohol as an alcoholic... I still don't want them to possess guns while under the influence of alcohol.

I don't brand everyone on antidepressants as mentally disordered (I assume most have been diagnosed as such by a medical professional)... mental disorder or not, I still don't want them to possess guns while under the influence of those mind altering drugs... at least not until they have had enough personal experience to understand how they affect them.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Apr 16, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
but you don't trust their diagnosis of a mental disorder? Are you mental?


Apparently doctoral candidates in Geology/ hydrology are not required two semesters of logic in their undergraduate portfolio...

It's been enertaining watching you chase your tail trying to indict me, personally, for your position being legally weak.

Your insolence is well-known and apparently accepted, here. But when it threatens to rub off on me...it's time to seek more dispassionate company...

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2013 - 09:00pm PT
Got it... drugs that increase suicidal and/or violent behavior by an order of magnitude more than alcohol does are perfectly safe... no reason to even consider restricting 8% of the US population's gun ownership... but let's keep guns out of the hands of felons (~7% of the population) regardless of the felony they committed.

Cuz people diagnosed with a mental disorder and prescribed drugs for that mental disorder shouldn't be branded as mentally disordered...

but ALL felons convicted of a felony (regardless of the felony) can't be trusted with guns.

Brilliant!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
That's beside the point.

If you are diagnosed with a mental disorder and prescribed mind altering drugs, you should NOT be allowed to walk into your local gun shop and buy a gun. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with defending your actions after committing a crime... it has EVERYTHING to do with being able to easily buy guns.

It also has NOTHING to do with your 2nd amendment right to "keep and bare" arms either... it has EVERYTHING to do with being able to easily buy guns.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
We should start somewhere, yeah? I'd say cross-referencing background checks with Rx records is a good place to start... even if Jennie thinks they are perfectly safe, despite the fact that they come with serious warnings from the FDA.

Can a gun shop refuse to sell someone a gun if they say crazy sh#t that suggests they are going to kill or hurt someone? (yes) Then why would We The People not refuse to sell them a gun if they tell their Dr the same thing?

No, it doesn't have to be specific. Just a yes or no entered into a database by a qualified professional.

Again, this has NOTHING to do with the right to "keep and bare" arms... just the privilege to buy and sell them.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Apr 16, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
"If you are diagnosed with a mental disorder and prescribed mind altering drugs, you should NOT be allowed to walk into your local gun shop and buy a gun. "

And even the NRA agrees with that. The NRA however believes that those diagnosed with mental disorders should simply be able to go to a Gun Show or find an online advertisement, thereby legally bypassing any background check. The honor system works for tipping waitresses, why wouldn't it work to prevent crazies and criminals from buying guns?

TE

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 16, 2013 - 10:30pm PT
You guys are failing to realize these psychotropics are being prescribed at a near parabolic rate.

And I mean for everything under the sun.

There's an orthopod at my hospital now prescribing Lyrica for EVERY patient knee/hip/ankle post-op.

The reason is obvious. There is no money for Pharma in opiates. Add in a little "evil opiate" marketing and steer everyone towards the new (i.e. expensive) and unpredictable crap.

There are GP's now writing for this stuff like candy, with zero supervision and follow up. Feeling a little run down? Feeling a little anxious? Dog die? Take a pill.

Anti-smoking Chantix? Look up the recent episodes from that.

I've seen this stuff drive totally normal people completely violently insane. And then after months of weening themselves off it with support from friends and family, they're 100% fine again.

TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Apr 16, 2013 - 10:35pm PT
Can a gun shop refuse to sell someone a gun if they say crazy sh#t that suggests they are going to kill or hurt someone? (yes)

They can, but many won't, because decades of propaganda tell them that "Guns don't kill people" and that ownership of guns is a right, not a responsibility. It's a win-win for everyone involved, sell one gun to the crazy guy, sell ten more to others who feel they need protection when the crazy guy makes the news a week later...

TE
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 16, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
You guys are failing to realize these psychotropics are being prescribed at a near parabolic rate.

no, we know that

and so would you if you had read just the last couple of pages of this thread
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
I fully realize that.

Doesn't change a thing.

People on drugs that fuk with your mind should not be allowed to easily buy guns. They should have to prove themselves competent... as should everyone else for that matter.

The only sane thing Jennie said on here was that she didn't get her bullshit script filled. Ain't that hard to (not) do.

What is it, $26 million prescription drug lobby? NRA is what, $7 million? That's from memory, you can google it. Imagine what Drs get for over prescribing that sh#t... and convincing sheeple like Jennie that they are totally benign.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Apr 17, 2013 - 10:56am PT
Got it... drugs that increase suicidal and/or violent behavior by an order of magnitude more than alcohol does


Completely false...

One in four suicide victims is legally drunk at the time of death, Alchohol affects judgement extraordinarily more than SSRI medications.

How many states allow alchohol intoxicated individuals to operate motor vehicles? ...none

Do any states allow people on SSRI medications to drive? ...all states do


No state bans police departments from hiring those on SSRI drugs. Law enforcement officers taking such medication is fairly widespread

"Anti-depressants are not addicting and don’t control your mind. Untreated depression controls your mind."
------statement from the San Francisco Police Officer Association



A significant number of firefighters, emergency medical personnel, physicians and surgeons also take SSRI drugs. All SSRI class medications combined accounted for more than 253.6 million prescriptions in 2010 .

... take away guns from everyone on these medicine?

Individuals in such professions can be fired or lose their license for being intoxicated with alchohol at work. They can lose their driving privileges for drinking on the way home.



What irony?...that any adult can legally drink alchohol in their own home, yet activists want to take away their hunting rifles or personal protection firearms for being on SSRI medications..
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 17, 2013 - 11:25am PT
Batten was OK til he got the drug.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Apr 17, 2013 - 11:47am PT
gary wrote:
Batten was OK til he got the drug

C'mon gary really! more like his belly was kill'n him.

Batten R.I.P
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 17, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
Completely false...

One in four suicide victims is legally drunk at the time of death

One in four is pretty LOW. I saw data that said HALF of suicide victims had alcohol in their system.

So, pay attention, I've already done this at least ONCE for you...


130 million people "take" alcohol in this country.
37,560 suicides a year in this country, at most 18,780 were "taking" alcohol

18,780/130,000,000 = 0.014% of suicide victims had alcohol in their system.

Now, if only we had a number for all suicide victims with SSRIs in their system...

"about 4 percent of those taking SSRI medications experienced suicidal thinking or behavior, including actual suicide attempts—twice the rate of those taking placebo, or sugar pills." 4% is much, much higher than 0.014%.

I know, I've seen your brilliant argument "children shouldn't have guns anyway." Should their parents? Should Adam Lanza's mom?

Does alcohol come with the following warning? Does alcohol require a qualified professional's prescription?

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/DrugSafety/InformationbyDrugClass/UCM173233.pdf


Wake up you fool! The drugs fuk with your mind. They are NOT well understood or well studied, yet. There IS evidence that they increase suicide risk in children and young adults. There is evidence that they reduce inhibitions. How old was James Holmes... 24?, that makes him a young adult. The Columbine shooters... yep. Oregon mall shooter... similar age, reports he too was on antidepressants.

Should we even consider doing anything about it? Nah, Jennie says they are benign and well established, we should leave it at that. Hell, why even study them... they give them out like candy so they must be fine.


... take away guns from everyone on these medicine?

YOU are the only one who has said that crap. I simply asked if Norton, or other responsible gun owners, would be willing to have access to their guns restricted during the initial (and most dangerous) phase of treatment... at least until they knew how these drugs designed to fuk with your mind affected them or their kids.

Anytime I try a new drug I make sure all guns, sharp objects, and Disney movies are locked up tight.


You can turn your back on a person, but never turn your back on a drug, especially when its waving a razor sharp hunting knife in your eye.
-Hunter S. Thompson
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Apr 17, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
Wes, you are comparing completed suicides under the influence of alcohol to suicidal ideations, some unnamed amount of completed acts, and "attempts". There is a bit of a difference, you know. To be fair you'd have to roll in those same categories for those under the influence of etoh. Trust me, drunks often come in suicidal to the hospital. They usually recant their desire to end it when sober.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Apr 17, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
I appreciate the wisdom, Wes...

I'm afraid your gun control solution receives a big FAIL.
But, your gracious incantations tutored me with ideas of how to summon the spirits of the masses on SSRI...


"Wake up you fool!"

How to address individuals taking Zoloft for sleep disorders...


"So, pay attention, I've already done this at least ONCE for you..."

What you tell people on Zoloft for attention deficit disorder...


"Are you mental?"

What to ask depression patients on Zoloft...


"I'm sorry you are too blind to see the truth..."

...for those on Zoloft for cognition disorder


"Stop being an idiot."

...to the remaining millions taking Zoloft for headaches and other mild to minimal ailments

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 17, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
Jeebs, you've been drunk? It is harder to do sh#t, right? Like walk, tie a noose, etc. No doubt suicide attempts are less effective.

You been on Prozac? You feel 100% sober, 100% alert, 100% able to function... except things just ain't right... the voices tell you so. The biggest difference is you are quite able to do something about it.

jennie, you and your mormon pals just keep telling the rest of us how bad coffee and alcohol and weed and all the other natural drugs that have been around for millennia are for us... while filling your kids full of suicide pills engineered to fuk with their minds and have been around for less than the average human life span.

"Who shall inherit the Earth? The meek shall. Yo I think I'm starting to peak now Al." -BBoys
Messages 4481 - 4500 of total 5850 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews