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Messages 4461 - 4480 of total 5937 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Apr 16, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
About what?
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Apr 16, 2013 - 03:57pm PT
Ron,

I'm clearly not a firearms expert, but I believe the AR-15 is close to the rifle my dad carried in Vietnam.

And wasn't the assault weapon used in the Sandy Hook massacre a similar clone ??
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 16, 2013 - 03:57pm PT
they TOSSED the "assualt" weapons bans ,,,duh..Stay with me here now...


Jennifer, Yes, your correct on all counts. Only there IS a difference between those used in military, police and govt issues vs the ones available to the public. The guns available to john Q are NOT fully -automatic(machine gun like). They shoot one round per squeeze of the trigger, just like a basic remington deer rifle does of semi auto function.
The time it takes to swap a magazine is 2 seconds on the long side for just about any gun. So consider that when referencing 30 or ten round magazines. And also realize there are multi millions of large capacity magazines out there.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Apr 16, 2013 - 04:00pm PT
Wow, that is very funny. You can't really focus very well, can you? Or maybe you don't want to talk about 'personal' weapons any more.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 16, 2013 - 04:10pm PT
Mono, no i dont want to talk about personal protection weapons as im FINE with the current definitions and so is the Senate. nanner nanner nanner...
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Apr 16, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
I agree, since the Senate uses the 'assault' weapon term, the 'personal' protection designation is meaningless in this discussion. Thanks for coming around.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 16, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
Jennie,

thank you for your reply to my questions
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Apr 16, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
You're welcome, Norton
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
Jennie, how could anyone in their right mind argue for not restricting gun access for those taking drugs that result in a much higher rate of suicide attempts than those that already have restrictions (alcohol, etc)? At least during the initial phases of treatment.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Apr 16, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
What specific SSRI medications are we discussing that tangibly display a positive association toward suicidality?

Prozac?

Trials by the FDA convey a 30% reduced rate of suicidal ideation for adults taking Prozac. And the MHRA in the UK claims 50% less suicidal ideation...

Prozac use in children increased the odds of suicide ideation by 50% (but declared not statistically significant due to the low number of cases).

But children should not have access to guns, regardless of how statistically significant the studies may or may not be...

With federal agencies purporting such statistics...how will you convince lawmakers and judges to go along with taking guns from the many millions on psychotropic drugs?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
Antidepressants increased the risk compared to placebo of suicidal thinking and behavior (suicidality) in children, adolescents, and young adults in short-term studies of major depressive disorder (MDD) and other psychiatric disorders.

That is the FDA black box warning REQUIRED ON ALL antidepressants. There is more... much more. Pull out your Prozac and take a look for yourself.

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/DrugSafety/InformationbyDrugClass/UCM173233.pdf

This is from the NIH

In the FDA review, no completed suicides occurred among nearly 2,200 children treated with SSRI medications. However, about 4 percent of those taking SSRI medications experienced suicidal thinking or behavior, including actual suicide attempts—twice the rate of those taking placebo, or sugar pills.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/child-and-adolescent-mental-health/antidepressant-medications-for-children-and-adolescents-information-for-parents-and-caregivers.shtml

Let's start with those.



My angle is pretty clear: I don't want people with mental disorders who are on drugs to be able to walk into a gun shop and buy a gun without some reassurance they aren't going to hurt themselves or others. Medical evaluations, longer waiting periods, more intensive background check, precautions while trying new medication... whatever.

What's your angle? Why do you want people with mental disorders who are on drugs to have easy access to guns?
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Apr 16, 2013 - 07:17pm PT
What's your angle? Why do you want people with mental disorders who are on drugs to have easy access to guns?

Outlandish question, Wes...

I've never expressed wanting people with bona fide mental disorders having access to guns.

Once again, doctors give anti-depressants almost like candy. Sleeping disorders, eating disorders...a Rexburg physician even wrote me a Clonazepam prescription for being morose over an ankle sprain.

(I didn't give it to the pharmacist)


No clearheaded people want felons or the mentally ill possessing firearms. But branding every individual taking psychotropic drugs as mentally disordered makes as much sense as profiling all Black and Hispanic people as criminals.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2013 - 07:57pm PT
I've never expressed wanting people with bona fide mental disorders having access to guns.

Those drugs are most often prescribed to people who have been diagnosed with a mental disorder... no? By the same professionals you trust to declare them as perfectly safe. So they know enough to know that the drugs are perfectly safe... but they don't know how to diagnose a mental disorder?

Once again, doctors give anti-depressants almost like candy.

Oh, well then... I'm sure they are fine. You trust Dr's who give people mind altering drugs like candy to tell you the drugs are perfectly safe (despite serious FDA warnings), but you don't trust their diagnosis of a mental disorder? Are you mental?

But branding every individual taking psychotropic drugs as mentally disordered

I don't brand everyone who drinks alcohol as an alcoholic... I still don't want them to possess guns while under the influence of alcohol.

I don't brand everyone on antidepressants as mentally disordered (I assume most have been diagnosed as such by a medical professional)... mental disorder or not, I still don't want them to possess guns while under the influence of those mind altering drugs... at least not until they have had enough personal experience to understand how they affect them.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Apr 16, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
but you don't trust their diagnosis of a mental disorder? Are you mental?


Apparently doctoral candidates in Geology/ hydrology are not required two semesters of logic in their undergraduate portfolio...

It's been enertaining watching you chase your tail trying to indict me, personally, for your position being legally weak.

Your insolence is well-known and apparently accepted, here. But when it threatens to rub off on me...it's time to seek more dispassionate company...

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2013 - 09:00pm PT
Got it... drugs that increase suicidal and/or violent behavior by an order of magnitude more than alcohol does are perfectly safe... no reason to even consider restricting 8% of the US population's gun ownership... but let's keep guns out of the hands of felons (~7% of the population) regardless of the felony they committed.

Cuz people diagnosed with a mental disorder and prescribed drugs for that mental disorder shouldn't be branded as mentally disordered...

but ALL felons convicted of a felony (regardless of the felony) can't be trusted with guns.

Brilliant!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
That's beside the point.

If you are diagnosed with a mental disorder and prescribed mind altering drugs, you should NOT be allowed to walk into your local gun shop and buy a gun. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with defending your actions after committing a crime... it has EVERYTHING to do with being able to easily buy guns.

It also has NOTHING to do with your 2nd amendment right to "keep and bare" arms either... it has EVERYTHING to do with being able to easily buy guns.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
We should start somewhere, yeah? I'd say cross-referencing background checks with Rx records is a good place to start... even if Jennie thinks they are perfectly safe, despite the fact that they come with serious warnings from the FDA.

Can a gun shop refuse to sell someone a gun if they say crazy sh#t that suggests they are going to kill or hurt someone? (yes) Then why would We The People not refuse to sell them a gun if they tell their Dr the same thing?

No, it doesn't have to be specific. Just a yes or no entered into a database by a qualified professional.

Again, this has NOTHING to do with the right to "keep and bare" arms... just the privilege to buy and sell them.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Apr 16, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
"If you are diagnosed with a mental disorder and prescribed mind altering drugs, you should NOT be allowed to walk into your local gun shop and buy a gun. "

And even the NRA agrees with that. The NRA however believes that those diagnosed with mental disorders should simply be able to go to a Gun Show or find an online advertisement, thereby legally bypassing any background check. The honor system works for tipping waitresses, why wouldn't it work to prevent crazies and criminals from buying guns?

TE

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 16, 2013 - 10:30pm PT
You guys are failing to realize these psychotropics are being prescribed at a near parabolic rate.

And I mean for everything under the sun.

There's an orthopod at my hospital now prescribing Lyrica for EVERY patient knee/hip/ankle post-op.

The reason is obvious. There is no money for Pharma in opiates. Add in a little "evil opiate" marketing and steer everyone towards the new (i.e. expensive) and unpredictable crap.

There are GP's now writing for this stuff like candy, with zero supervision and follow up. Feeling a little run down? Feeling a little anxious? Dog die? Take a pill.

Anti-smoking Chantix? Look up the recent episodes from that.

I've seen this stuff drive totally normal people completely violently insane. And then after months of weening themselves off it with support from friends and family, they're 100% fine again.

TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Apr 16, 2013 - 10:35pm PT
Can a gun shop refuse to sell someone a gun if they say crazy sh#t that suggests they are going to kill or hurt someone? (yes)

They can, but many won't, because decades of propaganda tell them that "Guns don't kill people" and that ownership of guns is a right, not a responsibility. It's a win-win for everyone involved, sell one gun to the crazy guy, sell ten more to others who feel they need protection when the crazy guy makes the news a week later...

TE
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