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mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 28, 2013 - 11:03am PT
Chaz, of course it is possible and I fully support responsible citizens using guns for personal protection.

Now your turn...

When YOU buy a gun off the black market, how do you think that gun originally made it onto the black market? Other than a minor inconvenience, why would any sane person oppose stricter regulation on gun shop record keeping and/or accountability for straw purchasers?


Follow up... if there had not been video of that road rage incident in NC, do you think that would have qualified as "defensive use of a weapon?" I'm guessing a redneck and his well dressed wife vs. a few teenage punks would result in a "yes" from most gun nuts. Sometimes I wish people would record that sh#t and then wait until the last possible minute to reveal the truth, just to show how stupid/blind/ignorant some of the pro-gun nut people are.
frank wyman

Mountain climber
montana
Mar 28, 2013 - 11:09am PT
"Well I can assure you young man, that neither my companion or I carry firearms on our person. We rely upon the goodwill of our fellow man, and the forbearance of reptiles" -English Bob-
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 28, 2013 - 11:10am PT
Wes the black market has many sources,, the US, China, Russia, Belgium, Turkey, India, Switzerland, etc..

One of the first encounters i ever had with the true black market was in a bar in Carson. They were all chinese ak-47s, fully auto. They did not come from straw sales, but rather smuggled arms. Arms smuggling is the number one commodity of that market as well as the legal markets world wide.



edit: Nice one Frank lol!






edit: Wes,,, stricter record keeping for gun shops??? HUH??

They keep DETAILED records required by law. Your name, ssn, eye color, hair color, age and race all specified. The exact model and serial number of gun purchased as well.. What more can they record??

In fact, it is the FEDERAL level that falls short of record keeping, as a brady check doesnt even require the model of the gun, just a long gun or hand gun. But those locally kept records are available 24/7 to law enforcment..


mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 28, 2013 - 11:13am PT
Ron, the black market has 2 sources that supply the vast majority of guns used in crimes. You didn't list either one... you listed countries.

1) Corrupt gun stores that should be required to keep better records and be held more accountable when they don't. Minimum of ~28%

2) Straw purchases, which should be watched more closely and prosecuted more severely. For example, anyone buying more than 1-2 gun per year (rather than per month) should arouse suspicion. Minimum of ~40%


The majority of the remaining 30% come from theft (irresponsible gun owners improperly storing their guns).
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Mar 28, 2013 - 11:15am PT
73K gun injuries in the US in 2010.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jul/23/facebook-posts/do-people-get-shot-every-year-facebook-post-says/

http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/nfirates2001.html
jghedge

climber
Mar 28, 2013 - 11:18am PT
"Well I can assure you young man, that neither my companion or I carry firearms on our person. We rely upon the goodwill of our fellow man, and the forbearance of reptiles"

Hahahaha, yes whenever I need a good data source to back up my gun claims, I rely on...Hollywood screenplays.

And again - quoting someone on the efficacy of being armed for self-defense, when the country they're from outlawed them, and as a result virtually eliminated gun murders...?


Priceless!





Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 28, 2013 - 11:24am PT
In fact, it is the FEDERAL level that falls short of record keeping, as a brady check doesnt even require the model of the gun, just a long gun or hand gun. But those locally kept records are available 24/7 to law enforcment..

well, the Brady bill expired many years ago


but Ron brings up a good point as he points out how the Feds fall short on record keeping

this seems an issue that can be improved upon


Ron, what specifically would you like the Feds to expand their record keeping on?
jghedge

climber
Mar 28, 2013 - 11:25am PT
Hey Mono

This really is like shooting fish in a barrel, eh?

When do we get to debate people who can actually debate?


Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 28, 2013 - 11:28am PT
The river of illegal weapons running through the streets of Chicago, as elsewhere, is fed by many tributaries. Those who help legally made guns flow into illegal hands include a small minority of crooked gun dealers, gunrunners who bring in weapons bought in the suburbs or out of state, brigades of burglars and flea-market traders who are happy to sell to any customer.



^^^ from a NY TIMES article.


Straw sales, being the latest buzzword, doesnt exaclty give justice to what is actually happening. GUN RUNNERS are actually the deal. Those are the same ones buying smuggled arms, as well as going to gun shows and selling/buying privatly, etc etc. And YES those guys need to be brought to their own justice. I agree on that 100%. When they are found they are prosecuted here also.







jghedge

climber
Mar 28, 2013 - 11:31am PT
"You really want to give the Black Market a big boost? Give it a monopoly."


Hahahaha, still laughing over the thoughtless stupidity of this, and how it contradicts the very point you're trying to make.

If the black market is the only source, then the cost of guns goes up exponentially. Nobody will be able to afford them, especially criminals, who, if they could afford them, wouldn't need to commit crimes for money in the first place. This is obviously why there is no black market for guns in the UK, and no gun crimes, and no gun murders - the crooks can't afford them.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 28, 2013 - 11:33am PT
Norton,, to answer,,
The brady paper work requies us to SPECIFICALLY identify ourselves as hispanic or non- hispanic, as well as white, red or other.
If they want to be that specific, why do they not want the model and serial number of the gun being purchased? That has always amazed me that they dont get ALL the info on one log. And FED crime reporting DOESNT ask if any gun users had CCWs??

So there are some improvements we could make and do so quite easily.. Ive written my reps on that very thing. But,, "my reps" dont "rep" me im thinkin.

frank wyman

Mountain climber
montana
Mar 28, 2013 - 11:35am PT
Relax Son, You are very good at flapping your "COCK HOLSTER" Not every body is out to get you..
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 28, 2013 - 11:38am PT
In fact, it is the FEDERAL level that falls short of record keeping...

If they want to be that specific, why do they not want the model and serial number of the gun being purchased?


So, what you are saying is that we NEED MORE FEDERAL LEVEL RECORD KEEPING/REGULATIONS.

Got it. Thanks.
jghedge

climber
Mar 28, 2013 - 11:39am PT
"Those who help legally made guns flow into illegal hands include a small minority of crooked gun dealers, gunrunners who bring in weapons bought in the suburbs or out of state, brigades of burglars and flea-market traders who are happy to sell to any customer."

Yup - and any hint of gun control raises the price of open market guns, let alone what it does to the black market prices. Meaning less crooks would be able to afford them.

So imagine what actual, effective gun control would do to black market prices - they'd be unaffordable to the very people who need them to commit crimes.

You yourself whine that you can't afford ammo - with effective gun control, you'd be selling your own guns on the black market, since you'd probably score 6 months pay (or more) from one sale.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 28, 2013 - 11:39am PT
Norton,, to answer,,
The brady paper work requies us to SPECIFICALLY identify ourselves as hispanic or non- hispanic, as well as white, red or other.
If they want to be that specific, why do they not want the model and serial number of the gun being purchased?


good points

why would they need to know the race/ethnicity anyway, any thoughts on this?

and yes, I don't understand why they don't want the model and serial number

is it because those records have to be kept by the selling dealer legally maybe?


by the way Ron, I assume you support universal background checks expect maybe close blood relatives exempted and much stricter straw buyer penalties, all of which the President is asking congress to vote on one way or another?
jghedge

climber
Mar 28, 2013 - 11:40am PT
"Relax Son, You are very good at flapping your "COCK HOLSTER" Not every body is out to get you.."

EXACTLY

No one is "out to get me" - so why do I need a gun?

Are people "out to get" you?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 28, 2013 - 11:42am PT
No Wes,, that is what you contrived. Im saying there is accurate records kept, but the feds ARENT the ones with those. Im saying that we dont need NEW laws when we already have them on the books. Im saying with a change in the form by adding two blocks, the brady background check will BE their "federal registry"... But instead,, the jackwagons will spend $$$$$ debating on a "new registry" and laws.. Meanwhile folks with common sense are scrathin their collective heads.


edit: Norton,, can you explain the diff between "universal" and the current Brady back ground check to me? Are we talking tomato tahmahto ?
And as far as the hispanic/ non hispanic blocks which are a semi recent change, looking at recent murders and gun violnece in my area, i can only guess they are tracking the crime levels of that race in particular. With detail to ethnicity.


mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 28, 2013 - 11:44am PT
n 1998, the FBI published the final rule implementing NICS. The NRA challenged the NICS regulations in court, claiming that the rules allowing the government to maintain an “audit log” for six months (later reduced by the Department of Justice to 90 days) amounted to a de facto firearm registry, contrary to the Brady Act. The NRA suit was dismissed, but since 2004, Congress has inserted language in annual spending bills requiring the FBI to destroy firearm transfer records within 24 hours of approval — as Congress did most recently in fiscal year 2012.

That is NOT strict record keeping... it is record taking, followed by destruction... and certainly falls short of a federal registry... unless you are only concerned about crimes committed 24 hours after the original purchase.

http://factcheck.org/2013/01/nra-misfires-on-federal-gun-registry/
jghedge

climber
Mar 28, 2013 - 11:50am PT
"since 2004, Congress has inserted language in annual spending bills requiring the FBI to destroy firearm transfer records within 24 hours of approval — as Congress did most recently in fiscal year 2012."

Hahahahahaha

Whoops


As usual, Rong hasn't the SLIGHTEST CLUE what he's talking about.


Again, when do we get to debate people who have their facts together?


If the feds aren't keeping track of gun sales, then how do we know the gun stores are?





Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 28, 2013 - 11:51am PT

The National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) is a point-of-sale system for determining eligibility to purchase a firearm in the United States of America.


Federal Firearms License (FFL) holders are generally required by law to use the NICS to determine if it is legal to sell a firearm to a prospective purchaser. Mandated by the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 and launched by the FBI on November 30, 1998, NICS determines if the buyer is prohibited from buying a firearm under the Gun Control Act of 1968. It is linked to the National Crime Information Center and the Interstate Identification Index among other databases maintained by the FBI.[1]

The National Instant Criminal Background Check System is applicable to sales from federally licensed dealers. Sales of firearms by private sellers are allowed to proceed without a background check unless required by state law. These regulations remain in place at gun shows, where no special leniency is granted to licensed sellers, and no additional requirements are placed upon private sellers.

NICS is accessed by an FFL, on the firearm buyer's behalf, by phone or computer. When contacted by phone, the communication is either with an FBI/NICS Examiner, who directly receives the information submitted by the FFL, or by proxy through a Call Center representative, who forwards the information electronically to the NICS. Whether an Examiner or a Call Center representative is contacted depends on the state in which the sale is conducted. When using a computer, an FFL representative can submit the buyer's information using the E-Check system which is a web interface to the NICS. An FFL can be an individual or an organization such as a retail store. An organization registered as an FFL minimizes the overhead involved in managing identification for multiple individuals who are employed by the organization.

By law, an FFL must receive a response from the NICS within 3 days or the firearm sale can proceed, although the FFL seller is not required to do so. If, after 3 days, the sale is completed and later it is determined the buyer should not have received the firearm, then the firearm must be retrieved.

Contents [hide]
1 Firearm Denial Appeals
2 Persons subject to prohibition
3 References
4 See also
wiki
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