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Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 10, 2014 - 11:29am PT
"BITD in San Berdo, I could trivially (and I mean TRIVIALLY) lay my hands on just about any sort of weaponry you care to shake a stick at."


The County Sheriff himself was convicted of illegal gun trafficking.

Not the sheriff back in the Mormon period, but the last sheriff.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 10, 2014 - 11:32am PT
I'm sorry, but I don't want to create a society where some people feel more empowered by carrying a fire arm with them everywhere they go. This changes the whole dynamic when armed and unarmed people interact. It almost forces everyone to carry a gun to have parity. That just sucks.

I'm sorry, but that's just a ridiculous set of statements!

"Have parity?"

WHAT are you intending to DO that causes you to "need parity?"

If you don't mess with me in deadly fashion, then you already HAVE parity with ME whether or not you are armed! My being armed is IRRELEVANT to you, IF you are a decent human being!

"Feel more empowered?"

Back to FEELINGS, which has nothing to do with it.

You are perfectly safe around me, whether either of us is packing or not, unless you threaten my life, property, or the lives or limbs of my family. If you do that, then you DO have to be concerned with "parity."

Otherwise, quit whining.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 10, 2014 - 11:39am PT
I'm not saying or thinking "everyone's cool" with it. I am saying that in Colorado people are not awash in a sea of irrational fear over it.

It sure sounds like they are awash in a sea of fear to me.

I used to know several guys who were competition shooters. Good guys, but when they got together to shoot the breeze, so to speak, they'd get into these conversations where they'd be hoping for someone to f*#k with them so they could draw down on them. They really wanted it to happen. Seemed f*#ked up to me.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 10, 2014 - 11:41am PT
How would I know I am safe around you? Because you say so?

Pffttt.

On the postive side, Open carry at least let's someone know they are dealing with whacko right off.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 10, 2014 - 11:42am PT
They really wanted it to happen. Seemed f*#ked up to me.

So, because you knew a couple of guys like this, that is a fair representation of all gun-carriers?

Seems f*#ked up to me.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 10, 2014 - 11:46am PT
It was a pretty good sample, and it was 100%. One of them almost shot a kid in the back for shoplifting a motorcycle part, thank the flying spaghetti monster he came to his senses.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 10, 2014 - 12:20pm PT
I'm not saying or thinking "everyone's cool" with it. I am saying that in Colorado people are not awash in a sea of irrational fear over it.


It sure sounds like they are awash in a sea of fear to me.

I used to know several guys who were competition shooters. Good guys, but when they got together to shoot the breeze, so to speak, they'd get into these conversations where they'd be hoping for someone to f*#k with them so they could draw down on them. They really wanted it to happen. Seemed f*#ked up to me.

Anyone looking for violence is f*#ked up... After decades around firearms the last thing I'd ever want is to be on the other end of one since I know the realities of that...
A5scott

Trad climber
Chicago
Jul 10, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
There are between 100 to 120 million gun owners in the US. There are more than 11 million CCW holders. If they are as violent as they are being portrayed, there would be millions of shootings every year.

here is an NPR story with a CDC report showing that murders with firearms have dropped by 49% over the last 20 years. In that same 20 years violent crime involving firearms has dropped by 75%

not epidemic, and going in the right direction, though it can and hopefully will improve. It's also well known that about 75% of those crimes are committed by gangs and drug trade types. Career criminals with zero regard for any law let alone care about human life.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/05/07/181998015/rate-of-u-s-gun-violence-has-fallen-since-1993-study-says

here is a link to stats from the Texas Department of Safety

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/reports/convrates.htm

it compares the conviction rate of CCW holder vs non CCW holders. or gun nuts Vs non gun nuts

here is a link to 2012: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL/Reports/ConvictionRatesReport2012.pdf

it shows in 2012: total convictions: 63,272
2012 total CCW holder convictions: 120

in 2011 total convictions 63,679
total CCW convictions 120


for 2010: total convictions: 73,914
total CCW convictions 121


for 2009: total convictions 65,561
total ccw convictions 101



About 15% of those CCW convictions are the type where they carried into a building or place they shouldn't have, with no intent to harm.

Is that pretty clear evidence that CCW holders are not committing anywhere near the bulk of crimes? well 96 and 97 weren't great years for texas. CCW holders committed about 150 of the 35,000 criminal convictions.

Why is the CCW crime rate low? because they don't want to give the gov any reason whatsoever to strip their rights and property. No alcohol, no speeding more than 5 mph above the limit, etc... anything to keep a low profile and go about their day


As for scrubbing bubbles fender bender, if anybody uses a gun to gain leverage, that's called brandishing, and it's illegal. all anybody needs to do is call the police, which in a fender bender, they are probably en route anyway.

in fact, looking at these statistics, the police are more likely to shoot you than a CCW is.

I don't worry much about anything, but worry more about a government that wants to kill millions, than a psycho that wants to kill me. I'm NOT talking about now or this current gov. I have history to tell me that in the last 100 years, governments have starved and slaughtered and mutilated more than 100 million of it's own citizens

china: 45-60 million dead
russia: 20-40 million
germany :10 million plus 20 million in the war worldwide

that's 3 countries in a short time, about 100 million dead.

the number 1 reason for the 2nd Amendment is to defend against tyranny. The 2nd reason was what that bearded navy seal in the video a few replies back was acknowledging... the right to self defense, and the right to defend oneself with modern weapons.


Nobody is advocating carrying machine guns, or is even carrying machine guns. Pretty much the cheapest machine gun is $5,000 and up to $100K or more. That plus the life sentence attached to crimes with machine guns. and other reasons

99.99% of the 11 million plus and growing don't take carrying lightly. It's not an easy decision to carry a firearm. Not near as casual as it's made out to be.




scott



A5scott

Trad climber
Chicago
Jul 10, 2014 - 01:05pm PT
graph showing homicide rate, including justifiable homicide. Correlation isn't causation, but the introduction of states allowing citizens to carry firearms in the mid 1980's didn't make the numbers go up.

scott




Credit: A5scott
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jul 10, 2014 - 01:13pm PT
Your guns ( and stupidity) are a violation of my rights to life, Liberty and happiness.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 10, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
There is plenty of stupid to go around on both extremes of this argument. As usual
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 10, 2014 - 01:53pm PT
Tour-de-force, Scott.

Well done!
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 10, 2014 - 02:04pm PT
Madbolter I'll agree with you that there is a fixation on "solutions" that are perhaps not effective to problems that pale in comparison to other issues. With a big factor in that being sensationalism.

Look at all we've done to combat terrorism for example. If we put that money into cancer research or perhaps most effectively towards public education about preventing heart disease we would save thousands of times more lives. But this thread is about the gun debate.

I also probably agree with you that gun control regulations are probably less effective than other measures we could take to reduce gun violence (helping inner city youth would probably be the most effective). But it seems many gun proponents (I struggle for the right term as I'm a gun owner but want sensible regulations and don't want to carry a gun around with me at all times to be safe, I'd rather have less guns around in public, but don't have a problem with trained and ) won't accept that any new gun control regulations would help. And I know that logically they would.

Now, please explain to me how such utterly LOCKED DOWN weaponry was so TRIVIALLY available to a guy like me.

You were hanging with the wrong crowd? I have never come across anyone who would sell me illegal weapons. I suppose I could drive around Oakland and start asking people, but I wouldn't do that, too risky. I would go buy a gun at a gun store though. And I'm sure there are plenty of people who feel similar who could have criminal intent or are unstable.

These laws DON'T WORK! Period! And your idea that there is going to be even a statistically significant "reduction" in access is what "defies reason and common sense."

How many thousands of people are turned away because they failed the background check? How many thousands of crimes are committed with guns that were bought without a background check? Or bought from a private seller that could sell them to another person without a background check because they weren't worried about a stiff jail term if they were caught selling it to someone without a background check. I'm not going to take the time to research it and there would be a lot of conjecture about what would have happened if things were different, but I would guess thousands of acts of gun violence are prevented yearly from background checks keeping guns out of the hands of the wrong people who would otherwise easily obtain them. I just took a quick look and the total number of denied background checks conducted in 2010 at 152,850. So even if half of those were a mistake 75,000 people wanted a gun who shouldn't have one. Whey didn't they just buy one illegally in the first place if it was so easy?

If you don't mess with me in deadly fashion, then you already HAVE parity with ME whether or not you are armed! My being armed is IRRELEVANT to you, IF you are a decent human being!

We're not talking about you. We're talking about guys like Zimmerman (regardless if it was self defense he wouldn't have stalked that kid and shot him without a gun) and the guy in the movie theater who shot a guy for talking. Yes they were maybe legal to have guns, but having a culture where so many people want to carry guns leads to more people like that with guns. That's the point. We feel safer with less guns around.

It's pretty selfish in my opinion for people who carry guns to want to prevent regulations that keep guns out of the hands of bad people. Sure they feel safe because they are armed but what about all the people who don't want to or can't carry a gun. That was my point before about wondering how many people who don't carry firearms are opposed to gun regulations. I bet you'd be hard pressed to find someone who didn't own a gun that agrees we shouldn't have sensible gun regulations (like background checks).
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 10, 2014 - 02:07pm PT
Funny madbolter I show you the graph of the drop in gun deaths in California and you look for any other reason why it can't be gun control, while someone else shows you a graph indicating what you want to see and it's a tour-de-force.

Do you really not see how skewed your views are on this subject?
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 10, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
Yours are totally objective, of course.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jul 10, 2014 - 02:45pm PT
Enlighten us Braunini, or is your expertise a secret ?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 10, 2014 - 02:51pm PT
It's pretty selfish in my opinion for people who carry guns to want to prevent regulations that keep guns out of the hands of bad people. Sure they feel safe because they are armed but what about all the people who don't want to or can't carry a gun. That was my point before about wondering how many people who don't carry firearms are opposed to gun regulations. I bet you'd be hard pressed to find someone who didn't own a gun that agrees we shouldn't have sensible gun regulations (like background checks).

I'll completely agree that most non-gun-owners are intuitively inclined to think that "sensible" gun regulations will do some good. Fine. As I've said, I have no problem with "sensible" gun regulations. I continue to disagree that they will have any noticeable effect. But, as I said, they do little harm.

I am always intuitively PRIMED to be worried about handing the feds yet more power, which is why unless somebody can produce some really solid and virtually incontrovertible evidence that THIS "war on..." by the feds is going to do anything but make it tougher on legitimate gun owners, I'm not enthusiastic about, for example, federal background checks.

Regarding my "hanging around with the wrong crowd," you are exactly right!

But you help me make my point. It is not hard to get in with the "wrong crowd," and once you do, the whole underworld opens up to you. Most street thugs, and certainly gang-connected people, DO have this underworld open to them. And that underworld is FILLED with every imaginable sort of weapon you could want to get your hands on.

So, with the feds ALREADY in "firm" control of military-grade weaponry, it remains TRIVIAL to get it with the sorts of connections that many/most criminal elements have access to. I don't see the feds even BEGINNING to lock this down, so I have supreme doubts that throwing yet more bureaucracy at the "gun problem" is going to have any noticeable positive effect.

Funny madbolter I show you the graph of the drop in gun deaths in California and you look for any other reason why it can't be gun control, while someone else shows you a graph indicating what you want to see and it's a tour-de-force.

Do you really not see how skewed your views are on this subject?

I think that the quoted statistics are displayed in very different ways and ranged very differently. For example, notice on YOUR graph that the spread between 2 and 8 is the same distance as the spreads (the ones that really matters for what the chart is trying to demonstrate!) between 14 and 16, and between 16 and 18. This has the effect of making VERY small fluctuations APPEAR much more dramatic than they really are.

The Scott-quoted statistics are not so flagrantly skewed.

The chart you showed is skewed, not my views. I just look for at least on-the-face-of-it accuracy. Your chart did not demonstrate that.

"Objectivity?" Well, none of us HAVE it! We can only keep trying. And having one's viewed challenged on a thread like this is always healthy... for ALL of us!

Count me in!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 10, 2014 - 02:52pm PT

Someone explain that IF Gun Laws just plain "don't work", then why is this?


Alaska: loosest gun laws and highest firearm deaths in the nation per capita

Massachusetts: toughest gun laws in the nation and fewest firearm deaths, per capita


the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 10, 2014 - 02:54pm PT
As a gun owner but not a gun nut, whose posts should indicate I see both sides of the issue, I'd venture they are more objective than many posters on this thread.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 10, 2014 - 02:55pm PT
Alaska: loosest gun laws and highest firearm deaths in the nation per capita

Massachusetts: toughest gun laws in the nation and fewest firearm deaths, per capita

You've claimed this before, and I asked you for citations of your sources. My own research just does not sustain this.

But you ignored my request before. Will you continue to ignore it?

If so, then you are just pulling those claims out of your....

Uhhh...

Imagination.
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