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HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 8, 2014 - 11:06am PT
On a happier note,
not a happier note at all. A totally innocent young woman is dead due to an armed idiot. You will notice from the reported testimony he didn't even claim to be frightened (unlike that other paragon of gun idiocy, Pistorius), he shot her in cold premeditated blood.
Oh, but she was black, intoxicated and from the other side of the tracks. So she must be partly culpable.
crankster

Trad climber
Aug 8, 2014 - 12:04pm PT
Now why dont some of you search out and post when concealed carriers have saved the day or the moment or some ones life? They are out there but you have to grovel deeply for them as it seems major media sources all but ignore those happenings since they dont match their mantra of the moment.

Since the media is mostly conservative (Fox dominates the ratings), if this statement had a fraction of truth the righties would be playing it nonstop. The reason they DON"T is because it DOESN'T happen very often. Compared to the amount of people killed by guns, intentionally or accidentally, its a trivial amount.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Aug 8, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
The reason they DON"T is because it DOESN'T happen very often. Compared to the amount of people killed by guns, intentionally or accidentally, its a trivial amount.

The FBI reports a total 200-300 justifiable homicides by civilians each year. Even if we took every single one of those to be Ron's hypothetical civilian gun-toting hero, it wouldn't make his point valid compared with 10,000 murders. Some are of course legitimate self-defense on which we all can agree, others are justifiable only because of the absurdity of "stand your ground" or castle doctrine laws. Even of those legally justified, there can be no doubt that not all would have resulted in the murder of the victim in the absence of a gun.

TE
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Aug 8, 2014 - 12:46pm PT
Which of the proposed gun-control laws would have kept this incident from happening?

Causal chains, please.

I never claimed they would/could, I was simply pointing out a recent news story relevant to this thread and expressing my hopes on how its publicity might actually help some gun owner make a better decision when faced with a similar circumstance.

Gun-culture? 90,900,000 google hits, figure it out for yourself.

Happy weekend everybody, stay safe.

TE

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 8, 2014 - 02:20pm PT

Since the media is mostly conservative (Fox dominates the ratings), if this statement had a fraction of truth the righties would be playing it nonstop. The reason they DON"T is because it DOESN'T happen very often. Compared to the amount of people killed by guns, intentionally or accidentally, its a trivial amount.

Ho man, what claptrap!

Media mostly conservative?

Doesn't happen very often? Read "the Armed Citizen" each month and it will cite dozens of incidents, giving references to newspaper articles.

If the media was conservative they'd be all over it.
Instead it is an inconvenient truth that can only be partially swept under the rug.

Those that are willing to compromise freedom for security deserve neither.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 8, 2014 - 05:13pm PT
Gun-culture? 90,900,000 google hits, figure it out for yourself.

The fact that bunches of people are searching for something does not correlate with the idea that ANY of them have the foggiest clue what they are talking about or searching for.

YOU use the term as a dysphemism, so I ask you what you really mean by it, and you punt.

Do you really think that this recent goofball shooting some woman through the door, or Pistorius (ironically, also shooting through a door), are really informative about your use of the term?
crankster

Trad climber
Aug 9, 2014 - 07:13am PT
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 9, 2014 - 11:08am PT
How unarmed people get to see themselves;

(insert photo of any massacre)
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 9, 2014 - 04:49pm PT
The Armed Citizen:
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-texas-shooting-20140808-story.html
A Texas boy who was accidentally shot in the face by his 7-year-old cousin is out of surgery and expected to survive his injuries, police officials told the Los Angeles Times on Friday.

The 8-year-old was struck in the left cheek around 4:30 p.m. on Thursday at the Harbor Oaks Apartments in Texas City, a city of 45,000 roughly 40 miles outside of Houston, accoring to Texas City Police Capt. Joe Stanton.

Emergency crews airlifted the boy to Memorial Hermann Hospital in Houston, where he remains in the pediatric intensive care unit in critical condition.

The victim, his 9-year-old brother and his 7-year-old cousin were all left alone inside an apartment on Thursday after the person their mother asked to watch them left the residence for an unknown reason, Stanton said.

The children later told police that they found a loaded .380 caliber semiautomatic handgun somewhere in the house.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 9, 2014 - 05:06pm PT
So sad. The lack of any uniform testing and standards for gun owners will lead to more tragic deaths of innocent people. I have yet to hear one plausible argument against such a standard, other than batsh*t crazy paranoia that the government will come for you.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 9, 2014 - 06:02pm PT
I have yet to hear one plausible argument against such a standard...

I don't argue against standards. But I DO ask why you and other single out such tragedies for special condemnation of gun owners, when there are other, FAR worse and epidemic tragedies affecting kids on a FAR more epic scale.

Both on a per-capita and real-numbers analysis, in a nation of 1/3 of a billion people, with hundreds of millions of guns, the FEW incidents people like you prefer to cite literally pale into insignificance.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: When you guys exhibit 1/10 the passion for the real and epic tragedies affecting kids as you do on this thread about guns, I'll start to buy your "concern."

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: To respond to your claim, "But this is a GUN thread," fine, then start equally passionate threads about the really epic tragedies affecting orders of magnitude more kids.

Then and only then will I read your hand-wringing as something other than USING these FEW tragedies as a pet hobby horse.

There should be standards! They should include a LOT more areas of dealing with kids than the gun issue! In a nation with limited resources, let's put our efforts where they will address the most PRESSING problems. And gun-ownership standards are NOT a significantly pressing problem compared to MANY others.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 9, 2014 - 08:30pm PT
Why do you keep asking others to prove your point for you?

If you want to talk about other threats to kids, start a thread on it.

You are trying to diffuse the issue. Stay on point.

I say we need stricter testing and licensing for people buying lethal weapons. You seem to agree. Hopefully we will see this positive change if the NRA doesn't try to kill it.
WBraun

climber
Aug 9, 2014 - 09:44pm PT
Guns will disappear when America ends it's source of violence.

America is the most violent country on the planet.

Kill kill kill kill is it's mantra.

Everywhere you turn there is violence.

Americans kill everything in sight.

Why YOU so stupid ......?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 9, 2014 - 10:10pm PT
You are trying to diffuse the issue. Stay on point.

The point IS that the issue is diffuse.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 19, 2014 - 07:39pm PT
The Armed Citizen:
A 7-year-old Florida boy is in critical condition after his grandmother mistakenly shot him, sheriff’s deputies say.

Linda Maddox, 63, was sleeping in her bedroom with her twin grandsons after their father had gone to work, said Cristal Bermudez Nunez of the Hillsborough County Sheriff’s Office.

Concerned about her safety, Maddox had placed a chair against the bedroom door handle for “extra protection” before going to bed at about 11:45 p.m., Bermudez Nunez said. A loaded .22-caliber revolver sat on the floor next to the mattress.

Just before 1 a.m., sheriff’s deputies say, Maddox heard the chair sliding against the hardwood floor. Believing there was an intruder, Maddox grabbed the gun and fired one shot toward the door.

Seconds later, deputies said, she heard her grandson, Tyler Maddox, screaming. He had been shot once in the upper body, and was taken to a hospital, where was listed in critical but stable condition.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-grandmother-florida-accidental-shooting-20140819-story.html
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 19, 2014 - 10:13pm PT
Tit for tat....

http://bearingarms.com/phoenix-man-shoots-carjacker-saves-neighbor/

A 29-year-old thug violently ripped a 66-year-old Phoenix, Arizona woman from her car in an attempt to steal it, causing her neighbors to spring forward in her defense. One of the neighbors, a woman, was injured as the car knocked her down. Her husband, who was able to retrieve his handgun from their home and opened fire, struck the suspect in the stolen car.

Police say the suspect started to drive away, and the vehicle struck the woman and knocked her to the ground, causing her to receive a head injury.

After seeing his wife knocked to the ground, police say her husband fired several shots at the suspect in the vehicle from a handgun he had gotten from inside his house. The suspect fled the area in the vehicle.

The neighbor woman was transported and hospitalized for a head injury she received when she fell after being struck by the vehicle. Her injury is believed to be non life-threatening.

A short time after the suspect stole the vehicle and fled, police received a call of a single vehicle collision in the area of 24th Street and Thomas. The suspect ran off the roadway in the vehicle and struck a fixed object.

The responding officers discovered it was the stolen vehicle and that the driver was the suspect. Police say he had suffered a gunshot wound.

He was transported to a local hospital, but later died of his injuries.

One less violent criminal, thanks to a good guy with a gun.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Aug 20, 2014 - 03:20am PT
madb0lter posted
I don't argue against standards. But I DO ask why you and other single out such tragedies for special condemnation of gun owners, when there are other, FAR worse and epidemic tragedies affecting kids on a FAR more epic scale.

The existence of arguably larger tragedies does not in fact justify the neglect of this one. Nobody is "singling out" anything. In fact, it would be a much stronger argument to say "why is it that of all the tragedies gun violence appears to be the one that is singled out to be NOT worked on."

madbolter posted
Tit for tat....

1. The guy got away with the car...no crime was prevented here.
2. The man discharged his firearm in a residential neighborhood. He appears to have hit his target but easily could have missed and hit things on the other side...like innocent people. I'm pretty sure shooting a guy AFTER he has stopped being violent and is fleeing the scene fails to meet any standard of defense.
3. The suspect was killed for fleeing in a stolen car. I'm supposed to feel good about this?
4. Tit for tat? Does an unprevented carjacking nullify the near-homicide of a 7 year old?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 20, 2014 - 11:16am PT
The existence of arguably larger tragedies does not in fact justify the neglect of this one. Nobody is "singling out" anything. In fact, it would be a much stronger argument to say "why is it that of all the tragedies gun violence appears to be the one that is singled out to be NOT worked on."

No, I do NOT argue that way because it is bogus! We do not have the resources to "fight every war," so we must, as a nation, allocate our resources to have the most "bang for the buck."

The "war on gun violence" is a tempest in a teapot, with an inordinate political charge relative to what it is supposedly "preventing" or "reducing."

This is not to trivialize the deaths of innocents! Far from it! It is to say that in a nation of 1/3 of a billion people from all over the planet, the "epidemic" of "gun violence" is minuscule compared to other "fights" we could/should be "fighting" but that we DO NOT!

Thus, "the epidemic of gun violence" IS singled out for special condemnation, and it is THAT that I argue is ridiculous.

1. The guy got away with the car...no crime was prevented here.

Wrong. The car was returned to its rightful owner rather than slipped into the further criminal pipeline of chop-shops, etc. Furthermore, at least for this ONE criminal, a whole SPREE of future crimes has been prevented. He's DONE!

Furthermore, there is a pesky little matter of justice that you seem to continually overlook. In this case, justice was served.

2. The man discharged his firearm in a residential neighborhood. He appears to have hit his target but easily could have missed and hit things on the other side...like innocent people. I'm pretty sure shooting a guy AFTER he has stopped being violent and is fleeing the scene fails to meet any standard of defense.

Wrong. As I've pointed out before, everybody I know with a gun takes their training FAR more seriously than do the cops! I, for one, HIT what I aim at. Apparently so can this guy.

Your argument would also cut against the cops using deadly force in ways that they commonly do. And COPS miss continually! Lots of "stray" cop bullets flying around on a daily basis! I guess we should disarm cops too and turn them into a bunch of impotent "bobbies," like in your vaunted Great Britain (that has an astronomical per-capita rate of violent crime compared to the USA, btw).

Finally, in most states (Arizona included), it IS legal to utilize deadly force in an effort to halt certain sorts of felonies in progress, such as sexual assault, robbery, burglary, and so on. So, this guy was entirely within the law to act exactly as he did. It is critical that gun owners know the laws of their states, and apparently this guy did.

3. The suspect was killed for fleeing in a stolen car. I'm supposed to feel good about this?

Absolutely!

Of course, wild-eyed liberals like you have NO regard for the whole notion of private property, as you continually support each and every effort on the part of the feds to redistribute wealth, which is nothing more than systematic THEFT.

But, yes, you SHOULD feel good about property rights being upheld in the face of criminals.

4. Tit for tat? Does an unprevented carjacking nullify the near-homicide of a 7 year old?

Are you really that backed into a corner, such that you have to argue that way?

Apparently so!

Ridiculous!
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 20, 2014 - 12:21pm PT
Wrong. As I've pointed out before, everybody I know with a gun takes their training FAR more seriously than do the cops! I, for one, HIT what I aim at. Apparently so can this guy.

Some yahoo firing in a residential area at someone who's no longer a threat doesn't seem to be responsible. This isn't Dirty Harry shooting up SF in the movies and every thing's cool.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 20, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
Some yahoo firing....

Pretty clearly not. lol

Too bad cops can't shoot as well as this "yahoo"!
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